rec.autos.simulators

by **bertr** » Sat, 28 Dec 2002 00:35:37

I picked up a Logi Momo Racing Wheel to replace my aging (but still
functional) LWFF. I know that when switching wheels, it takes awhile to
get accustomed to it, but I'm getting extremely frustrated and was
hoping that someone could offer some help.

First off, I like this wheel. It has a good feel to it (the grip on the
wheel itself) and turns smoothly. However, no matter what I do, I
cannot get it set to a point where I can "feel" the car in GPL. What
kind of "Testing" do you guys do when breaking in a new wheel?

I figured that I'd start at Monza (again) and tweak settings based upon
the feel at that track. I kept the FF values at the default (100) in
the Game Controller settings. I do NOT launch any games using the
Profiler. So, that leaves playing with the Core.ini file. No matter
what I do with these settings, I find that I cannot feel when the car
loses grip. Particularly when accelerating out of the 2 Lesmos and the
Parabolica. In other words, I don't feel any change in the wheel
tension during these incidents, so something is probably set too low.
I've increased torque settings and damping settings in core.ini, which
only accomplished in making the wheel harder to turn. (No increase in
"feel"). On the rare occassions that I react quick enough to the rear
end sliding to the outside, I overcorrect and spin. With my LWFF, I had
things pretty well set to where I could feel the loss of grip almost
immediately and could react accordingly. That's what I'm hoping to
re-acquire with this wheel.

So, can anyone help me with a suggested method to use in tweaking the
core.ini settings in GPL, or otherwise tweak it? Should I be starting
this process at another track? I could probably use a refresher on what
the FF values in GPL's core.ini control in GPL, as well.

For what it's worth, the wheel feels pretty good on GTR2002.....

Thanks!

Bert

by **Haqsa** » Sat, 28 Dec 2002 02:43:43

I am curious why you don't use the profiler? It allows you to do some
really cool things, like right now I am playing with the brake axis
range and dead zone to try and get the brake friction point in GPL to
match the spot where the pedal firms up. In the process I have made it
much easier to modulate the brakes in GPL.

If you aren't going to use the profiler, then what are your global
settings? I just found it impossible to tame GPL's force levels in the
core.ini alone. I ended up cutting the overall force strength in the
profiler to 70%, which really helped. For GTR I cut the force level to
70% in the menu, so if those were the only two games I played I probably
could have done it globally instead. Maybe you should try that, cut the
global level to 70%. I find that if the force level is too high I
cannot feel the subtle changes in force level that accompany a change in
the vehicle's handling.

For tuning GPL I usually start with everything at default and try to set
the latency first. Drive down the straights and do some quick lane
changes. If the force lags behind the wheel movement, you need more
latency correction. If you never ever make a mistake you can get away
with a low or no latency setting, but the first time you get into a tank
slapper you will wish you had set it as above. In a tank slapper
inadequate latency correction can actually throw you right off the road.

The feel of the wheel lightening up when you get it on the edge seems to
be mostly a function of damping. Damping is not just used for grass and
dirt effects, it appears to be used for an overall resistance to motion
as well. And it is definitely weight sensitive, so this is where the
feel of weight transfer comes from. I thought that the feeling was way
overdone with the default settings, so I lightened the damping up
considerably. I was using none for a while, but that unfortunately
deprives you of a lot of on-center feel, so now I have it at 20.

The strength setting seems to control the aligning torque, which means
this is what is making the steering heavier as you pull more g's, and
then making it lighten suddenly when you get to the max. slip value.
For the strength setting remember that it is inverted. A higher number
for strength equals lower strength. Lower than 225 gives higher forces
but clips the strongest ones. Again, I usually prefer it to be low. I
find that if I set it too high I tend to not turn the wheel far enough
if the force level gets too high, even though I probably could, IOW I am
responding to incorrect information about the handling of the vehicle.
Keeping it low helps to prevent that.

Do you have either N4 or NR 2002? To save yourself some time you might
want to try and tune it in one of those games first, since you can tune
it right in the menus without even leaving your test session. I find
that tuning it at one of the road courses usually results in settings
that I can translate to GPL.

Latency translates directly. Whatever works in N4 or NR2002 seems to
work fine in GPL, except of course that the units in the former are
milliseconds, whereas the units in GPL are seconds.

I assume that the default damping of 40 in core.ini = 100%, so I scale
the damping in GPL accordingly, e.g. 50% in NR2002 would be 20 in GPL
core.ini. I might be wrong about that, but it seems to produce similar
results.

For strength I assume that the core.ini default of 225 = 100%, and that
since it is inverted you would have to divide to determine the desired
value. So if I find that 50% strength feels right in NR 2002, then in
core.ini I want 225 / 50% = 450. Seems to work.

Good luck. At this point I have the Momo feeling really good in GPL and
am very happy with it.

by **bertr** » Sat, 28 Dec 2002 04:05:35

Hey Haqsau,

Thanks! That is exactly the type of detailed info that I was hoping to
receive. I never got into using the Profiler because the original that came
with the LWFF gave me problems -- couldn't save profiles, etc. Besides, I
just saw it as a couple of extra unnecessary clicks to launch my sims. I
also had been under the impression that its settings get completely
overriden by GPL's core.ini file anyway, but apparently that's not the case?

BTW -- If I start using the Profiler, and come across the settings I like
(in GPL), how do I make sure that those settings are also in effect when
racing online via VROC? I seem to recall that I could never get that sorted
out either.

I do also have NR2002 on my system, but have not gotten into it very much.
In particular I haven't even fired up either of the road courses. So, I
think that I'll follow your guideleines in GPL (and the Profiler), and see
what happens there. I had forgotten all about running down a straight and
veering from side to side to check latency. I guess that once you get a
core.ini that you like (in this case for my old LWFF) you just don't give
further tweaking another thought.

I tried using your suggested settings for the MOMO from your previous post,
but the overall forces were too low for my taste. (I guess that I'm not as
"attuned to" the road as you are. LOL) So, I started tweaking from there
and things just didn't seem to be going in the right direction. That's why
I started this new thread.

Thanks for the excellent info!

Bert

> I am curious why you don't use the profiler? It allows you to do some
> really cool things, like right now I am playing with the brake axis
> range and dead zone to try and get the brake friction point in GPL to
> match the spot where the pedal firms up. In the process I have made it
> much easier to modulate the brakes in GPL.

> If you aren't going to use the profiler, then what are your global
> settings? I just found it impossible to tame GPL's force levels in the
> core.ini alone. I ended up cutting the overall force strength in the
> profiler to 70%, which really helped. For GTR I cut the force level to
> 70% in the menu, so if those were the only two games I played I probably
> could have done it globally instead. Maybe you should try that, cut the
> global level to 70%. I find that if the force level is too high I
> cannot feel the subtle changes in force level that accompany a change in
> the vehicle's handling.

> For tuning GPL I usually start with everything at default and try to set
> the latency first. Drive down the straights and do some quick lane
> changes. If the force lags behind the wheel movement, you need more
> latency correction. If you never ever make a mistake you can get away
> with a low or no latency setting, but the first time you get into a tank
> slapper you will wish you had set it as above. In a tank slapper
> inadequate latency correction can actually throw you right off the road.

> The feel of the wheel lightening up when you get it on the edge seems to
> be mostly a function of damping. Damping is not just used for grass and
> dirt effects, it appears to be used for an overall resistance to motion
> as well. And it is definitely weight sensitive, so this is where the
> feel of weight transfer comes from. I thought that the feeling was way
> overdone with the default settings, so I lightened the damping up
> considerably. I was using none for a while, but that unfortunately
> deprives you of a lot of on-center feel, so now I have it at 20.

> The strength setting seems to control the aligning torque, which means
> this is what is making the steering heavier as you pull more g's, and
> then making it lighten suddenly when you get to the max. slip value.
> For the strength setting remember that it is inverted. A higher number
> for strength equals lower strength. Lower than 225 gives higher forces
> but clips the strongest ones. Again, I usually prefer it to be low. I
> find that if I set it too high I tend to not turn the wheel far enough
> if the force level gets too high, even though I probably could, IOW I am
> responding to incorrect information about the handling of the vehicle.
> Keeping it low helps to prevent that.

> Do you have either N4 or NR 2002? To save yourself some time you might
> want to try and tune it in one of those games first, since you can tune
> it right in the menus without even leaving your test session. I find
> that tuning it at one of the road courses usually results in settings
> that I can translate to GPL.

> Latency translates directly. Whatever works in N4 or NR2002 seems to
> work fine in GPL, except of course that the units in the former are
> milliseconds, whereas the units in GPL are seconds.

> I assume that the default damping of 40 in core.ini = 100%, so I scale
> the damping in GPL accordingly, e.g. 50% in NR2002 would be 20 in GPL
> core.ini. I might be wrong about that, but it seems to produce similar
> results.

> For strength I assume that the core.ini default of 225 = 100%, and that
> since it is inverted you would have to divide to determine the desired
> value. So if I find that 50% strength feels right in NR 2002, then in
> core.ini I want 225 / 50% = 450. Seems to work.

> Good luck. At this point I have the Momo feeling really good in GPL and
> am very happy with it.

> > I picked up a Logi Momo Racing Wheel to replace my aging (but still
> > functional) LWFF. I know that when switching wheels, it takes awhile
> to
> > get accustomed to it, but I'm getting extremely frustrated and was
> > hoping that someone could offer some help.

> > First off, I like this wheel. It has a good feel to it (the grip on
> the
> > wheel itself) and turns smoothly. However, no matter what I do, I
> > cannot get it set to a point where I can "feel" the car in GPL. What
> > kind of "Testing" do you guys do when breaking in a new wheel?

> > I figured that I'd start at Monza (again) and tweak settings based
> upon
> > the feel at that track. I kept the FF values at the default (100) in
> > the Game Controller settings. I do NOT launch any games using the
> > Profiler. So, that leaves playing with the Core.ini file. No matter
> > what I do with these settings, I find that I cannot feel when the car
> > loses grip. Particularly when accelerating out of the 2 Lesmos and
> the
> > Parabolica. In other words, I don't feel any change in the wheel
> > tension during these incidents, so something is probably set too low.
> > I've increased torque settings and damping settings in core.ini, which
> > only accomplished in making the wheel harder to turn. (No increase in
> > "feel"). On the rare occassions that I react quick enough to the rear
> > end sliding to the outside, I overcorrect and spin. With my LWFF, I
> had
> > things pretty well set to where I could feel the loss of grip almost
> > immediately and could react accordingly. That's what I'm hoping to
> > re-acquire with this wheel.

> > So, can anyone help me with a suggested method to use in tweaking the
> > core.ini settings in GPL, or otherwise tweak it? Should I be starting
> > this process at another track? I could probably use a refresher on
> what
> > the FF values in GPL's core.ini control in GPL, as well.

> > For what it's worth, the wheel feels pretty good on GTR2002.....

> > Thanks!

> > Bert

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 28 Dec 2002 04:43:32

settings are also in effect when

I beleive the proper way is to have a setup for GPL and then a
duplicate for VROC. You point the profiler to the Vroc exe instead of the
GPL exe. (I think!)
dave henrie
Oh and make sure the Centering spring is OFF for GPL/N2k2 and EA F1
titles. That is already covered by the sim itself.

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by **bertr** » Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:15:40

I took a quick look at NR2002 at the Glen. You're right about you _really_
feel the weight transfer on those cars. So it makes sense to tweak the
settings there and then try transferring them to GPL. However, I'm not
clear on what you mean by (you can tune it right in the menus without even
leaving your test session". Are you saying that I can somehow access
core.ini from there? If so, I don't see it.