RASCAR- California Race RECAP

Well, Ian was the winner with a late pass . I punted Scott and Jan. and deeply regretted both incidents. Anti-lock just doesnt respond fast enough. Scott could have retailiated at the end but, just like the gentleman he is, let me pass after just a small fight. :) I thought that pit stragety would put me up front at the end but that was not the case. After leading for a couple of laps around lap 39, the usual fast drivers of RASCAR passed me in uniformed fashion. After wrecking Jan, I put myself in the rear to show my shame. Hope next week will be an even better race. grub

What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a wrecker? Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was all about. "grubbat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well, Ian was the winner with a late pass . I punted Scott and Jan. and > deeply regretted both incidents. Anti-lock just doesnt respond fastenough. > Scott could have retailiated at the end but, just like the gentleman heis, > let me pass after just a small fight. :) I thought that pit stragety would > put me up front at the end but that was not the case. After leading for a > couple of laps around lap 39, the usual fast drivers of RASCAR passed mein > uniformed fashion. After wrecking Jan, I put myself in the rear to show my > shame. Hope next week will be an even better race. > grub > >

In article <GAbc9.14454$[email hidden]>, "jon" <[email hidden]> writes: >What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a wrecker? >Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was all about. Y'know, I *forgot* about that. I'll check the replay... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I have it. It should also be on the server shortly. -Larry "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GAbc9.14454$[email hidden]...

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> What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a wrecker? > Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was all about. > > > "grubbat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Well, Ian was the winner with a late pass . I punted Scott and Jan. and > > deeply regretted both incidents. Anti-lock just doesnt respond fast > enough. > > Scott could have retailiated at the end but, just like the gentleman he > is, > > let me pass after just a small fight. :) I thought that pit stragety

would > > put me up front at the end but that was not the case. After leading fora > > couple of laps around lap 39, the usual fast drivers of RASCAR passed me > in > > uniformed fashion. After wrecking Jan, I put myself in the rear to showmy

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> > shame. Hope next week will be an even better race. > > grub > > > > > > >

>>What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a wrecker? >>Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was all about. > >Y'know, I *forgot* about that. I'll check the replay... I haven't looked at the server replay yet, but on my local replay it looks like a massive warp. All I can see is Lee and Ed pacing the field, even though they were on row 3. Then DGF and JLe warp in and out a couple of times as the flag falls. Fredrickson and PKroberts don't pop back in until the melee had already started... Whew! BTW, the results and replay are in the normal place: http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/rascar.html Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? TP "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >>What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by awrecker? > >>Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was all about. > > > >Y'know, I *forgot* about that. I'll check the replay... > > I haven't looked at the server replay yet, but on my local replay it lookslike > a massive warp. All I can see is Lee and Ed pacing the field, even thoughthey > were on row 3. Then DGF and JLe warp in and out a couple of times as theflag > falls. Fredrickson and PKroberts don't pop back in until the melee hadalready

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> started... Whew! > BTW, the results and replay are in the normal place: > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/rascar.html > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I retired after grubbat told me that I was warpping badly. panclan "grubbat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well, Ian was the winner with a late pass . I punted Scott and Jan. and > deeply regretted both incidents. Anti-lock just doesnt respond fastenough. > Scott could have retailiated at the end but, just like the gentleman heis, > let me pass after just a small fight. :) I thought that pit stragety would > put me up front at the end but that was not the case. After leading for a > couple of laps around lap 39, the usual fast drivers of RASCAR passed mein > uniformed fashion. After wrecking Jan, I put myself in the rear to show my > shame. Hope next week will be an even better race. > grub > >

I saw someone say that their foot slipped off the gas pedal. How that equates to getting sideways on the front straight, well, I just don't know... :) In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> >>What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a wrecker? > >>Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was all about. > > > >Y'know, I *forgot* about that. I'll check the replay... > > I haven't looked at the server replay yet, but on my local replay it looks like > a massive warp. All I can see is Lee and Ed pacing the field, even though they > were on row 3. Then DGF and JLe warp in and out a couple of times as the flag > falls. Fredrickson and PKroberts don't pop back in until the melee had already > started... Whew! > BTW, the results and replay are in the normal place: > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/rascar.html > > Eldred >

-- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

I had a fantastic race, was running up front almost all race. After Ginger and Ian pitted early on in the race and it was obvious that they were gonna need another pitstop, i thought i maybe had a chanche to win this one. Because i only pitted once, and the car was feeling very good even after 40+ laps. But i was highly amazed to see that in the first lap after Ginger's pitstop he regained his position up front. It seemed like it really doesnt matter if he makes a stop or not. In the end I was in no way able to challenge Ian or Ginger. Congrats to Ian for winning ! One remark though about RBTTL when the yellow comes out: I really think we should remain race speed a bit more. Everyone around me very abruply lifts off the gas, dont know if it caused some accidents in the back of the field but it surely is risky to back off so much. cya on track Jurjen

Well, I really can't recall any incidents caused by the rule, as opposed to how many we had when we WERE racing back to the line... People shouldn't ligft completely off, and there's really no reason to run full speed back, but I have noticed that people take their sweet old time about catching up to the back of the pace line, and that needs to be worked on. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> One remark though about RBTTL when the yellow comes out: I really think > we should remain race speed a bit more. Everyone around me very abruply > lifts off the gas, dont know if it caused some accidents in the back of > the field but it surely is risky to back off so much. > > cya on track > Jurjen >

-- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

There was no big warp... The goy who had the outside front row posistion goofed up his start by putting to much power on cold wheeels and spun. Some made it thru - other didnt. -- ed_ "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding news:Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03... > Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > TP > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > >>What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a > wrecker? > > >>Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was all about. > > > > > >Y'know, I *forgot* about that. I'll check the replay... > > > > I haven't looked at the server replay yet, but on my local replay it looks > like > > a massive warp. All I can see is Lee and Ed pacing the field, even though > they > > were on row 3. Then DGF and JLe warp in and out a couple of times as the > flag > > falls. Fredrickson and PKroberts don't pop back in until the melee had > already > > started... Whew! > > BTW, the results and replay are in the normal place: > > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/rascar.html > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

I thought I was going to have a good lap after practice and qualifying. Got disco'd though while running in 4th and returned 5 laps down. Decided to stick it out and got 3 back. Had a lot of fun near the end actually. Ginger seemed like he was trying to keep me between himself and Ian, while I wanted to just get by so I'd get another lap back. Once I passed, they had a nice run to the finish from what I saw on the replay. David G Fisher "grubbat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well, Ian was the winner with a late pass . I punted Scott and Jan. and > deeply regretted both incidents. Anti-lock just doesnt respond fastenough. > Scott could have retailiated at the end but, just like the gentleman heis, > let me pass after just a small fight. :) I thought that pit stragety would > put me up front at the end but that was not the case. After leading for a > couple of laps around lap 39, the usual fast drivers of RASCAR passed mein > uniformed fashion. After wrecking Jan, I put myself in the rear to show my > shame. Hope next week will be an even better race. > grub > >

In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes: >People shouldn't ligft completely off, and there's really no reason to >run full speed back, but I have noticed that people take their sweet old >time about catching up to the back of the pace line, and that needs to >be worked on. Maybe they're cautious because they don't know when the pack will suddenly slow down. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes: >I saw someone say that their foot slipped off the gas pedal. How that >equates to getting sideways on the front straight, well, I just don't >know... :) Oh, ok - that might have been one of the cars on the front row. As I said, I don't see the front row in my replay until the accident is already under way. But, yeah, I don't understand that excuse, either. :-) Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? No, it's not a silly question. 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the replay. I was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide an incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a second chance. 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it ANYWAY... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Robby Gordon wasn't behind him was he? "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I saw someone say that their foot slipped off the gas pedal. How that > equates to getting sideways on the front straight, well, I just don't > know... :) > > > In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > >>What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a

wrecker? > > >>Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was allabout. > > > > > >Y'know, I *forgot* about that. I'll check the replay... > > > > I haven't looked at the server replay yet, but on my local replay itlooks like > > a massive warp. All I can see is Lee and Ed pacing the field, eventhough they > > were on row 3. Then DGF and JLe warp in and out a couple of times asthe flag > > falls. Fredrickson and PKroberts don't pop back in until the melee hadalready

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> > started... Whew! > > BTW, the results and replay are in the normal place: > > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/rascar.html > > > > Eldred > > > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

On 01 Sep 2002 13:04:54 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> >writes: > >>Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the >>start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > >No, it's not a silly question. >1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the replay. I >was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. >2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide an >incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a second chance. >3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it ANYWAY... >

I was begging for a restart when it happend, but I am glad you couldn't/didnt. It would have just set an unwanted precedent. Brian Oster

On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 11:59:21 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Well, I really can't recall any incidents caused by the rule, as opposed >to how many we had when we WERE racing back to the line... > >People shouldn't ligft completely off, and there's really no reason to >run full speed back, but I have noticed that people take their sweet old >time about catching up to the back of the pace line, and that needs to >be worked on. >

Yup, everyone should pull up to the end of the pace line as soon as possible. By not doing so you take an element out of the game... the ability to gain positions on pit row by having a good stop. Also, for those that are damaged, they need to get in as soon as possible so that they can get repaired and not lose a lap. Brian Oster

On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:28:01 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I thought I was going to have a good lap after practice and qualifying. Got >disco'd though while running in 4th and returned 5 laps down. Decided to >stick it out and got 3 back. I feel your pain. Had it happen to me twice, in addition to a bogus BF for trying to miss the lap 1 mahem. I was coming close to getting back on the lead lap when it happend the second time. Between black flags and the disconnects I have spent the last two weeks just trying to get back on the lead lap. I just hate it for the guys in the shop who work really hard to give me a good car every week and I think the John-Deere Ford had a really good chance to have a top five finish this week. Brian Oster

In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes:

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>On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:28:01 GMT, "David G Fisher" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>I thought I was going to have a good lap after practice and qualifying. Got >>disco'd though while running in 4th and returned 5 laps down. Decided to >>stick it out and got 3 back. > > >I feel your pain. Had it happen to me twice, in addition to a bogus >BF for trying to miss the lap 1 mahem. I was coming close to getting >back on the lead lap when it happend the second time. Between black >flags and the disconnects I have spent the last two weeks just trying >to get back on the lead lap.

Must have been heavy weather(internet) yesterday. In the morning, I cot disco'd from a league race at Texas. I couldn't get back in after I got dropped to the sierra.com screen. I had to totally quit the program, start it again, then log back into sierra.com and the race. It probably cost me about 10 laps - not that it would have mattered anyway... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of "hypocrisy in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on Saturdays. You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing experience for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are collected. Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR races - "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, they do nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the yellow" as an example). If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race that's for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough of a "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent" to doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers, too! Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun and experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed group of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run with us are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even though they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with damage, and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out half the field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the remaining drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That's why we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one complains about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporary loss of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, we don't make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race rules....and follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions they have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not really. This is just my two cents. Tom "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]>

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> writes: > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > No, it's not a silly question. > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the replay.

I > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide an > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a secondchance.

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> 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it ANYWAY... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Tom, My two cents as a very casual rascar racer, so hopefully fairly objective. The rules regarding damage, racing back to the yellow and no restarts are because it is still a fairly open group. Restarts with a known group are possible, but where you have new members it needs to be made clear that daft moves at the start won't simply mean you start again, hence the experience gained. Similarly racing back to the yellow seemed to be a prime cause of incidents and extended caution periods. From the experience gained this has been added. It may not be realistic but with the mix of driving ability and the danger of cars racing whilst others are recovering from accidents makes it arguably too risky. Again damage is there so either inexperienced drivers or over ambitious ones gain the experience to improve their driving or approach. For most this does not just mean gaining experience from not damaging your own car, but that your move costs others races as well. The deterrent shouldn't just be some lost time which doesn't hurt so much when a yellow ensues compared to say GPL. As you describe it I would say both groups have got it about right for the mix of drivers. Cheers Tony "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02...

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> This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of "hypocrisy > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on Saturdays. > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing experience > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > collected. > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR races - > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, they do > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > yellow" as an example). > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race that's > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough of a > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent" to > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers, too! > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun and > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed group > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run with us > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even though > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with damage, > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out half the > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the remaining > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That's why > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one complains > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporary loss > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, we don't > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race rules....and > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions they > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > really. > > This is just my two cents. > > Tom > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > <[email hidden]> > > writes: > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the replay. > I > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide an > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a second > chance. > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it ANYWAY... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

Tom Although I wouldn't want to say that RASCAR should change as it's up to the people who run it, I would like to suggest to "someone" out there who has the time, patience and skill that a "training race" slot would be beneficial to rookie drivers like myself. The idea would not be to win races but to learn under racing conditions to enable rookies to gain knowledge and experience before moving onto "proper" racing. The races would be short and if there is a major incident re-started or what ever. The incident would then be discussed with the "instructor" commenting in chat on the replay. Or just spend an hour practicing restarts It could be for example be made compulsory for one race for everyone to pit on Lap 10 so that people can have a go at pitting under green with lots of cars, again under the watchful eye of the "instructor". A driver could be told to let someone by so he can practice running 2 abreast. I'm sure people can think of could think of lots of other examples. I think it would beneficial to all involved in on-line sim racing. ESCORS runs a system of test races and a rules test before they give you a "license" to allow you race in their leagues. Perhaps this could lead to a "license" which would give league bosses some idea of what you are like. It would of course always be up to a race series/league to decide who they let in. Just some thoughts Lee "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of"hypocrisy > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on Saturdays. > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racingexperience > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > collected. > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCARraces - > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, theydo

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> nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > yellow" as an example). > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race

that's

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> for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough of a > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent" to > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers, too! > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun and > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed

group > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run with us > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even though > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run withdamage, > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out halfthe > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for theremaining > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That'swhy > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no onecomplains > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporaryloss > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, wedon't > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR racerules....and

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> follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions they > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > really. > > This is just my two cents. > > Tom > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > <[email hidden]> > > writes: > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the

replay.

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> I > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide an > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a second > chance. > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it ANYWAY... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every week, it's comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show up at some more races :) John "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of"hypocrisy > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on Saturdays. > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racingexperience > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > collected. > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCARraces - > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, theydo

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> nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > yellow" as an example). > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race

that's

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> for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough of a > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent" to > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers, too! > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun and > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed

group > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run with us > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even though > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run withdamage, > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out halfthe > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for theremaining > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That'swhy > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no onecomplains > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporaryloss > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, wedon't > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR racerules....and

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> follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions they > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > really. > > This is just my two cents. > > Tom > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > <[email hidden]> > > writes: > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the

replay.

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> I > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide an > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a second > chance. > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it ANYWAY... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:54:40 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: >This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of "hypocrisy >in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on Saturdays. I don't want to join in the debate, but the "no passing on restarts" rule is common in most leagues, as is the "no racing back to the flag with more than 10 to go" rule. Jason ----- GPLRank 24.50 N2002Rank -12.995

I really REALLY hate the no racing back to yellow rule. I've never seen it cause any wrecks except at the SS tracks when people throw their common sense out the window. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:54:40 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of"hypocrisy > >in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events onSaturdays.

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> > I don't want to join in the debate, but the "no passing on restarts" > rule is common in most leagues, as is the "no racing back to the flag > with more than 10 to go" rule. > > Jason > > ----- > GPLRank 24.50 > N2002Rank -12.995

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 David G Fisher "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:T2vc9.32475$[email hidden]...

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> I really REALLY hate the no racing back to yellow rule. I've never seen it > cause any wrecks except at the SS tracks when people throw their common > sense out the window. > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:54:40 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of > "hypocrisy > > >in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on > Saturdays. > > > > I don't want to join in the debate, but the "no passing on restarts" > > rule is common in most leagues, as is the "no racing back to the flag > > with more than 10 to go" rule. > > > > Jason > > > > ----- > > GPLRank 24.50 > > N2002Rank -12.995 > > >

A little tip I picked up off another group, if you put a > before and a < after a long URL it will keep the link intact. So you'll get >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1< and I just hope it works ;) -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SLvc9.345976$[email hidden]... > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 >

Ooops, maybe > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 < -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aku1s1$4h3$[email hidden]... > A little tip I picked up off another group, if you put a > before and a < > after a long URL it will keep the link intact. > So you'll get > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&o > e=UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1< > > and I just hope it works ;) > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spam> > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:SLvc9.345976$[email hidden]... > > > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe > > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 > > > >

Arrgh, doesn't seem to be working. Sorry for interrupting, back to normal business ;) -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aku1pt$b46$[email hidden]... > Ooops, maybe > > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 < > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spam> > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aku1s1$4h3$[email hidden]... > > A little tip I picked up off another group, if you put a > before and a < > > after a long URL it will keep the link intact. > > So you'll get > > > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&o > > e=UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1< > > > > and I just hope it works ;) > > -- > > > > Ian P > > <email invalid due to spam> > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:SLvc9.345976$[email hidden]... > > > > > > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe > > > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 > > > > > > > > >

It was a good try...maybe quotes or something? dave henrie "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aku1um$b8c$[email hidden]...

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> Arrgh, doesn't seem to be working. > Sorry for interrupting, back to normal business ;) > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spam> > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aku1pt$b46$[email hidden]... > > Ooops, maybe > > > >

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe

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> > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 < > > > > -- > > > > Ian P > > <email invalid due to spam> > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:aku1s1$4h3$[email hidden]... > > > A little tip I picked up off another group, if you put a > before and

a

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> < > > > after a long URL it will keep the link intact. > > > So you'll get > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&o > > > e=UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1< > > > > > > and I just hope it works ;) > > > -- > > > > > > Ian P > > > <email invalid due to spam> > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:SLvc9.345976$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > >

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe

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> > > > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aYrc9.6410$[email hidden]... > Tom, > > My two cents as a very casual rascar racer, so hopefully fairly objective. > > The rules regarding damage, racing back to the yellow and no restarts are > because it is still a fairly open group. <Pabst> Toney, if by an "open group" you mean a mixture of experienced drivers and rookies, then that is exactly the reason that no special "training wheel" rules should be employed. Especially, for a race that's supposed to be for "fun and experience." Just a difference of philosophy between us I guess? > > Restarts with a known group are possible, but where you have new membersit > needs to be made clear that daft moves at the start won't simply mean youstart > again, hence the experience gained. <Pabst> I disagree with your assessment of "damage on" being a deterrent to stupid, "daft" driving. It never has been in all the years I've raced online....don't know what's special about RASCAR that makes it so. The only thing it does is end the "experience and fun" for those caught up in someone elses "daftness." > > Similarly racing back to the yellow seemed to be a prime cause ofincidents and > extended caution periods. From the experience gained this has been added.It may > not be realistic but with the mix of driving ability and the danger ofcars > racing whilst others are recovering from accidents makes it arguably toorisky. <Pabst> These "problems" are caused by inexperienced drivers not knowing what "racing back tot he line" means...or what the correct conduct is on the track when a yellow comes out. How do they learn? Certainly not be removing that "experience" from the race. Wouldn't you have to agree? > > Again damage is there so either inexperienced drivers or over ambitiousones > gain the experience to improve their driving or approach. For most thisdoes not > just mean gaining experience from not damaging your own car, but that yourmove > costs others races as well. The deterrent shouldn't just be some lost timewhich > doesn't hurt so much when a yellow ensues compared to say GPL. <Pabst> Again, your assessment that "damage on" is a deterrent to stupid racing....is just not valid. > > As you describe it I would say both groups have got it about right for themix > of drivers. <Pabst> My "group" is the same mix as RASCAR. I don't understand your point.

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> > Cheers > Tony > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of

"hypocrisy > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events onSaturdays. > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racingexperience > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > > collected. > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCARraces - > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While,they do > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > > yellow" as an example). > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do youhave > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap -no > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't evenknow > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a racethat's > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough ofa > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent"to > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don'thave > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers,too! > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "funand > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixedgroup > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run withus > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, eventhough > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run withdamage, > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out halfthe > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for theremaining > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That'swhy > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no onecomplains > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporaryloss > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, wedon't > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR racerules....and > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questionsthey

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> > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > > really. > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > Tom > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > <[email hidden]> > > > writes: > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the

replay. > > I > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to providean > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get asecond > > chance. > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do itANYWAY...

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> > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > >

Lee... I'd a agree with you "in principle"....but keep in mind, the RASCAR races ARE training races. At least that seems to be the "claim" and the reason for all these silly "training wheel" rules. TP "lee.ward1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rfsc9.1797$[email hidden]... > Tom > > Although I wouldn't want to say that RASCAR should change as it's up tothe > people who run it, I would like to suggest to "someone" out there who has > the time, patience and skill that a "training race" slot would bebeneficial > to rookie drivers like myself. > > The idea would not be to win races but to learn under racing conditions to > enable rookies to gain knowledge and experience before moving onto"proper" > racing. The races would be short and if there is a major incidentre-started > or what ever. The incident would then be discussed with the "instructor" > commenting in chat on the replay. > > Or just spend an hour practicing restarts > > It could be for example be made compulsory for one race for everyone topit

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> on Lap 10 so that people can have a go at pitting under green with lots of > cars, again under the watchful eye of the "instructor". > > A driver could be told to let someone by so he can practice running 2 > abreast. > > I'm sure people can think of could think of lots of other examples. I

think

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> it would beneficial to all involved in on-line sim racing. ESCORS runs a > system of test races and a rules test before they give you a "license" to > allow you race in their leagues. Perhaps this could lead to a "license" > which would give league bosses some idea of what you are like. > > It would of course always be up to a race series/league to decide who they > let in. > > Just some thoughts > > Lee > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of > "hypocrisy > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on

Saturdays.

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> > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing > experience > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > > collected. > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR > races - > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While,

they > do > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > > yellow" as an example). > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do youhave > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap -no > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't evenknow > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race > that's > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough ofa > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent"to > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don'thave > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers,too! > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "funand > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed > group > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run withus > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, eventhough

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> > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with > damage, > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out half > the > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the > remaining > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That's > why > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one > complains > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporary > loss > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, we > don't > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race > rules....and > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions

they

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> > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > > really. > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > Tom > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > <[email hidden]> > > > writes: > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the > replay. > > I > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide

an > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get asecond > > chance. > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do itANYWAY...

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> > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > >

John.... Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about "why I'm concerned" about the RASCAR races? If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are not obvious to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every RASCAR race to have an opinion about them. Do you? TP "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every week,it's

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> comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show up at > some more races :) > > John > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of > "hypocrisy > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on

Saturdays.

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> > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing > experience > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > > collected. > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR > races - > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While,

they > do > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > > yellow" as an example). > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do youhave > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap -no > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't evenknow > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race > that's > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough ofa > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent"to > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don'thave > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers,too! > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "funand > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed > group > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run withus > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, eventhough

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> > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with > damage, > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out half > the > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the > remaining > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That's > why > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one > complains > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporary > loss > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, we > don't > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race > rules....and > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions

they

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> > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > > really. > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > Tom > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > <[email hidden]> > > > writes: > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the > replay. > > I > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide

an > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get asecond > > chance. > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do itANYWAY...

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> > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > >

Jason... I can't comment on how many leagues have employed special racing rules over the last 5 years. Of course they have. "No passing on starts/restarts" is already implement by NASCAR rules and the "in-game officials" enforce it. Are you talking about something other than the NASCAR rules? I doubt very seriously if any remaining "leagues" for experienced drivers have implemented "no racing back to the flag under cautions." Why? Because its therefore nearly impossible to gain a lap back....other than simply being faster than the leaders and being capable of going down a lap....then you are so much faster you can go all the way around the track and pass them again....because you are sooooo fast! A ridiculous notion, of course. "No racing back...." simply does not eliminate incidents during cautions...it doesn't even reduce them......they still happened but for more varied reasons. RASCAR (among others) clearly demonstrates that fact every week. TP "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:54:40 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of"hypocrisy > >in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events onSaturdays.

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> > I don't want to join in the debate, but the "no passing on restarts" > rule is common in most leagues, as is the "no racing back to the flag > with more than 10 to go" rule. > > Jason > > ----- > GPLRank 24.50 > N2002Rank -12.995

Got to agree with you, Fred. Certainly, there are no *more* problems with allowing it than not allowing it. TP "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:T2vc9.32475$[email hidden]...

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> I really REALLY hate the no racing back to yellow rule. I've never seen it > cause any wrecks except at the SS tracks when people throw their common > sense out the window. > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:54:40 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of > "hypocrisy > > >in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on > Saturdays. > > > > I don't want to join in the debate, but the "no passing on restarts" > > rule is common in most leagues, as is the "no racing back to the flag > > with more than 10 to go" rule. > > > > Jason > > > > ----- > > GPLRank 24.50 > > N2002Rank -12.995 > > >

Just checked, and I think I got them the wrong way around, though I can't get it to work anyway (just spent 5 minutes emailing myself ! ) ;) < http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 > If that doesn't work I'll just give up, or use HTML <G> -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l1wc9.265171$me6.34281@sccrnsc01... > It was a good try...maybe quotes or something? > > dave henrie > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aku1um$b8c$[email hidden]... > > Arrgh, doesn't seem to be working. > > Sorry for interrupting, back to normal business ;) > > > > -- > > > > Ian P > > <email invalid due to spam> > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:aku1pt$b46$[email hidden]... > > > Ooops, maybe > > > > > > > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe > > > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 < > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Ian P > > > <email invalid due to spam> > > > > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:aku1s1$4h3$[email hidden]... > > > > A little tip I picked up off another group, if you put a > before and > a > > < > > > > after a long URL it will keep the link intact. > > > > So you'll get > > > > > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&o > > > > e=UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1< > > > > > > > > and I just hope it works ;) > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Ian P > > > > <email invalid due to spam> > > > > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:SLvc9.345976$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe > > > > > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

In article <kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of "hypocrisy >in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on Saturdays. >Good grief - here we go again... :-( I take offense at you calling it hypocrisy, Tom. >You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing experience >for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are >collected. No, we don't collect points, but I'm QUITE sure it matters who wins. I know *I* would be happy if I won. If you don't want to win, why would you even BOTHER? >Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR races - >"in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the >"realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, they do >nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers >(everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the >yellow" as an example). We started out running *exactly* like the WC drivers do(yellows, race to the line, double-file restarts). I even had forced cockpit view and forced smoke set on the server. The changes in the rules were an attempt to decrease the number of yellows. I also know of *points* leagues that have a 'no racing back to yellow' rule(also in an attempt to avoid more incidents). Would you call them hypocritical as well?

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>If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have >such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no >matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know >why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race that's >for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall >contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough of a >"penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent" to >doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have >that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers, too! > >Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid >induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field >(especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun and >experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's >pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion.

I disagree with your opinion. Hell, if we ran with no damage, I'd probably finish a LOT higher. I wouldn't be as worried about damaging my car, or taking somone else out of the race by forcing a pass. I could bounce off the walls(or other cars) without any concerns.

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> >I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed group >of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run with us >are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even though >they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with damage, >and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first >lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few >laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out half the >field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the remaining >drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That's why >we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one complains >about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporary loss >of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, we don't >make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant >(experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race rules....and >follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the >"practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that >particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions they >have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more >"cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not >really.

No, your group of drivers sounds like they're just more skilled than our group. Either that, or you don't have as WIDE a disparity of skill levels as we do. Some of your guys might not have much sim experience, but they have real racing experience. I think that helps a LOT. Again, I object to you're calling our attempts at better racing "bicycle training wheel" rules. Honestly, I don't know what the hell else to DO! What would you suggest? We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race. We don't kick people out just because they may not have perfect car control. Faced with those two very important facts, I really don't see how to eliminate yellow flags. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Tom Pabst" wrote:

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> > The rules regarding damage, racing back to the yellow and no restarts are > > because it is still a fairly open group. > > <Pabst> Toney, if by an "open group" you mean a mixture of experienced > drivers and rookies, then that is exactly the reason that no special > "training wheel" rules should be employed. Especially, for a race that's > supposed to be for "fun and experience." Just a difference of philosophy > between us I guess?

I mean that it is not a group of drivers that know each other necessarily. I have raced with other leagues where we have known each other to a level where if certain people agreed we should restart then we would. My assumption was your group was at this level.

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> > Restarts with a known group are possible, but where you have new members > it > > needs to be made clear that daft moves at the start won't simply mean you > start > > again, hence the experience gained. > > <Pabst> I disagree with your assessment of "damage on" being a deterrent > to stupid, "daft" driving. It never has been in all the years I've raced > online....don't know what's special about RASCAR that makes it so. The only > thing it does is end the "experience and fun" for those caught up in someone > elses "daftness."

Again I have raced in leagues where those causing incidents have been mortified that they ruined the racing for others. This had a greater effect on their approach next time than damaging themselves. However, it takes time and may be questionable in an open league where new members can drop in at any time.

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> > > > Similarly racing back to the yellow seemed to be a prime cause of > incidents and > > extended caution periods. From the experience gained this has been added. > It may > > not be realistic but with the mix of driving ability and the danger of > cars > > racing whilst others are recovering from accidents makes it arguably too > risky. > > <Pabst> These "problems" are caused by inexperienced drivers not knowing > what "racing back tot he line" means...or what the correct conduct is on the > track when a yellow comes out. How do they learn? Certainly not be > removing that "experience" from the race. Wouldn't you have to agree?

Yeh, I am not really sure on this one. I think it was chosen due to too many incidents and was considered a prudent move. Maybe sim & reality just can't coincide here as mixing accidents and racing seems pretty difficult conveyed via the limited view of the computer screen. I think this could be debated for ages!

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> > Again damage is there so either inexperienced drivers or over ambitious > ones > > gain the experience to improve their driving or approach. For most this > does not > > just mean gaining experience from not damaging your own car, but that your > move > > costs others races as well. The deterrent shouldn't just be some lost time > which > > doesn't hurt so much when a yellow ensues compared to say GPL. > > <Pabst> Again, your assessment that "damage on" is a deterrent to stupid > racing....is just not valid.

I would say it was a definite deterrent to not tangling with the AI in single player, so cannot see why it would not apply to online. > > As you describe it I would say both groups have got it about right for the > > mix of drivers. > > <Pabst> My "group" is the same mix as RASCAR. I don't understand your > point. My assumption is your group is a known group who race together on a regular basis, whereas Rascar is not. That is my point. Cheers Tony

> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 > > > If that doesn't work I'll just give up, or use HTML <G> Doh!

Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" that you don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not comment on other "leagues" too ? For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who didn't participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what would you think ? Rude as hell imo. And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I don't comment on them. Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ? John "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > John.... > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about "whyI'm > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are notobvious > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every RASCARrace

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> to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > TP > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every week, > it's > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show up at > > some more races :) > > > > John > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of > > "hypocrisy > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on > Saturdays. > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing > > experience > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > > > collected. > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR > > races - > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, > they > > do > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you > have > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - > no > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even > know > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race > > that's > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in

wall > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enoughof > a > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper"deterrent"

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> to > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't > have > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers, > too! > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or

stupid > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun > and > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race?That's > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed > > group > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who runwith

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> us > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even > though > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with > > damage, > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first

few > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking outhalf > > the > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the > > remaining > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out.That's

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> > why > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one > > complains > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporary > > loss > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, we > > don't > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race > > rules....and > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of

the

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> > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions > they > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > > > really. > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the > > replay. > > > I > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide > an > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a > second > > > chance. > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > -- > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > >

I'm sick of people giving me duff advice ;) -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ENwc9.6960$[email hidden]... > > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3949550063d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe > > =UTF-8&selm=txI%258.2481%24Py1.50423%40news2.ulv.nextra.no&rnum=1 > > > > > If that doesn't work I'll just give up, or use HTML <G> > > Doh! > >

> We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race. We don'tkick > people out just because they may not have perfect car control. Faced with > those two very important facts, I really don't see how to eliminate yellow > flags. This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. I spend half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one or two pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole. You have to drive the car like a car and not worry so much about being glued to the "proper line". Its just like being on the freeway, you just drive and slow down when you gotta turn. Turn off the speedometer and turn on the racing line indicator thingie, and just focus on controlling your car.

Seems like the last week has been full of huge latency spikes on Sierra. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster > <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes: > > >On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:28:01 GMT, "David G Fisher" > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>I thought I was going to have a good lap after practice and qualifying.

Got

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> >>disco'd though while running in 4th and returned 5 laps down. Decided to > >>stick it out and got 3 back. > > > > > >I feel your pain. Had it happen to me twice, in addition to a bogus > >BF for trying to miss the lap 1 mahem. I was coming close to getting > >back on the lead lap when it happend the second time. Between black > >flags and the disconnects I have spent the last two weeks just trying > >to get back on the lead lap. > > Must have been heavy weather(internet) yesterday. In the morning, I cot > disco'd from a league race at Texas. I couldn't get back in after I got > dropped to the sierra.com screen. I had to totally quit the program,

start it > again, then log back into sierra.com and the race. It probably cost meabout

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> 10 laps - not that it would have mattered anyway... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <dswc9.265526$me6.34352@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >Lee... > >I'd a agree with you "in principle"....but keep in mind, the RASCAR races >ARE training races. At least that seems to be the "claim" and the reason >for all these silly "training wheel" rules. I have NEVER claimed that these are 'training' races. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes: > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every week, it's >comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show up at >some more races :) As long as we talk about it here, everyone here can camment. We can heed or ignore those comments as we see fit... :-) It does bug me sometime, though. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <hBwc9.265662$me6.34339@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >A ridiculous notion, of course. "No >racing back...." simply does not eliminate incidents during cautions...it >doesn't even reduce them......they still happened but for more varied >reasons. RASCAR (among others) clearly demonstrates that fact every week. Incorrect - the 'no racing back' rule wasn't implemented until the most recent race(2 races?). Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Also, you have to be real patient with the throttle, especially at darlington which i ran a few times, i think that helped me at california. "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Bhxc9.33199$[email hidden]... > > > We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race. We don't > kick > > people out just because they may not have perfect car control. Facedwith > > those two very important facts, I really don't see how to eliminateyellow > > flags. > > This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. I spend > half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one or two > pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole. You > have to drive the car like a car and not worry so much about being gluedto > the "proper line". Its just like being on the freeway, you just drive and > slow down when you gotta turn. Turn off the speedometer and turn on the > racing line indicator thingie, and just focus on controlling your car. > > >

Tony... In the "group" I was referring to, there's many new guy's that don't know everyone. This is always the case as we add new drivers to the group from time to time. But, our "rule" we've decided about re-starts......isn't required to be "interpreted" by anyone. Our rule is: If a yellow comes out on lap #1.....the race is re-started.....no discussion...its automatic. Everyone has agreed to this prior to racing (or doesn't race with us if they can't live with this rule). The only time we don't do this is when we've decided to run with no damage (that depends on the track we are running and the particular makeup of the drivers for that race - experience wise). I'm sorry for mis-interpreting what you were saying about the nature of our groups. TP "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZLwc9.6958$[email hidden]... > "Tom Pabst" wrote: > > > > The rules regarding damage, racing back to the yellow and no restartsare > > > because it is still a fairly open group. > > > > <Pabst> Toney, if by an "open group" you mean a mixture of experienced > > drivers and rookies, then that is exactly the reason that no special > > "training wheel" rules should be employed. Especially, for a racethat's > > supposed to be for "fun and experience." Just a difference ofphilosophy > > between us I guess? > > I mean that it is not a group of drivers that know each other necessarily.I > have raced with other leagues where we have known each other to a levelwhere if > certain people agreed we should restart then we would. My assumption wasyour > group was at this level. > > > > Restarts with a known group are possible, but where you have newmembers > > it > > > needs to be made clear that daft moves at the start won't simply meanyou > > start > > > again, hence the experience gained. > > > > <Pabst> I disagree with your assessment of "damage on" being adeterrent > > to stupid, "daft" driving. It never has been in all the years I'veraced > > online....don't know what's special about RASCAR that makes it so. Theonly > > thing it does is end the "experience and fun" for those caught up insomeone > > elses "daftness." > > Again I have raced in leagues where those causing incidents have beenmortified > that they ruined the racing for others. This had a greater effect on their > approach next time than damaging themselves. However, it takes time andmay be > questionable in an open league where new members can drop in at any time. > > > > > > > Similarly racing back to the yellow seemed to be a prime cause of > > incidents and > > > extended caution periods. From the experience gained this has beenadded. > > It may > > > not be realistic but with the mix of driving ability and the danger of > > cars > > > racing whilst others are recovering from accidents makes it arguablytoo > > risky. > > > > <Pabst> These "problems" are caused by inexperienced drivers notknowing > > what "racing back tot he line" means...or what the correct conduct is onthe > > track when a yellow comes out. How do they learn? Certainly not be > > removing that "experience" from the race. Wouldn't you have to agree? > > Yeh, I am not really sure on this one. I think it was chosen due to toomany > incidents and was considered a prudent move. Maybe sim & reality justcan't > coincide here as mixing accidents and racing seems pretty difficultconveyed via > the limited view of the computer screen. I think this could be debated forages! > > > > > Again damage is there so either inexperienced drivers or overambitious > > ones > > > gain the experience to improve their driving or approach. For mostthis > > does not > > > just mean gaining experience from not damaging your own car, but thatyour > > move > > > costs others races as well. The deterrent shouldn't just be some losttime > > which > > > doesn't hurt so much when a yellow ensues compared to say GPL. > > > > <Pabst> Again, your assessment that "damage on" is a deterrent tostupid > > racing....is just not valid. > > I would say it was a definite deterrent to not tangling with the AI insingle > player, so cannot see why it would not apply to online. > > > > As you describe it I would say both groups have got it about right forthe > > > mix of drivers. > > > > <Pabst> My "group" is the same mix as RASCAR. I don't understand your > > point. > > My assumption is your group is a known group who race together on aregular

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> basis, whereas Rascar is not. That is my point. > > Cheers > > Tony > >

Eldred... I've heard something along the lines of: "These RASCAR races are partly for the benefit of the inexperienced sim racers to gain some experience racing with the more experienced sim racers".....or something along those lines, in response many times to my request for a "veterans only" additional RASCAR race on Saturday. If you did not participate in that general "theme" of response......I can't validate that or not without going back through hundreds of posts, which I'm not going to do (at least not just to make a point). Are you now saying that this "general theme" is not the case? TP "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <dswc9.265526$me6.34352@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]>

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> writes: > > >Lee... > > > >I'd a agree with you "in principle"....but keep in mind, the RASCAR races > >ARE training races. At least that seems to be the "claim" and the reason > >for all these silly "training wheel" rules. > > I have NEVER claimed that these are 'training' races. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

John... Fair questions. Here's my answers: 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I must "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points championship, and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate interest in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the RASCAR races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that doesn't mean I don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nor does that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it represents. 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but just for arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that league was making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't consider him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what our league was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't think "my remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I haven't heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise. 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or whether you like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are going to look upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to (initially at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who has been sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are incorrect, or send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You can ask Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years! I care more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers. Sim racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: The new drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans represent the current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some of you take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough, to one day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. And, that is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they first come into the public sim racing community. John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you do participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then your comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I urge you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have reason to do so. Regards, Tom "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" that you > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not comment on > other "leagues" too ? > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who didn't > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what would you > think ? Rude as hell imo. > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I don't > comment on them. > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ? > > John > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > > John.... > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about "why > I'm > > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are not > obvious > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every RASCAR > race > > to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > > > TP > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every week, > > it's > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show up

at

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> > > some more races :) > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of > > > "hypocrisy > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on > > Saturdays. > > > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing > > > experience > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > > > > collected. > > > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR > > > races - > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, > > they > > > do > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to

the > > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you > > have > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the firstlap - > > no > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even > > know > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in arace > > > that's > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in > wall > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves haveenough

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> of > > a > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper > "deterrent" > > to > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't > > have > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other

drivers, > > too! > > > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or > stupid > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for"fun > > and > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? > That's > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are amixed

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> > > group > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run > with > > us > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even > > though > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with > > > damage, > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first > few > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out > half > > > the > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the > > > remaining > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. > That's > > > why > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one > > > complains > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the

temporary > > > loss > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And,we

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> > > don't > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race > > > rules....and > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of > the > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any

questions > > they > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have anymore > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing?Not

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> > > > really. > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at

the

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> > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the > > > replay. > > > > I > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to

provide

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> > an > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a > > second > > > > chance. > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it > > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > -- > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Hmmmm, Eldred. I think you are being "picky" here. That topic has been discussed, in one way or another....ever since I first even heard of the RASCAR races (months ago). The fact that you tried limiting "race back" only in the last few races is not germane to my point or posts about the fact that it does not reduce incidents during caution laps. Even if it was implemented only two races ago....then that's two weeks of discussion on the topic in one form or another.....why are my comments about it then being taken personal, as it seems to me you've gotten a little "huffy" in this reply? TP "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <hBwc9.265662$me6.34339@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >A ridiculous notion, of course. "No > >racing back...." simply does not eliminate incidents during cautions...it > >doesn't even reduce them......they still happened but for more varied > >reasons. RASCAR (among others) clearly demonstrates that fact everyweek. > > Incorrect - the 'no racing back' rule wasn't implemented until the mostrecent

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> race(2 races?). > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Awl , come on Tom. Why did ya have to go and do that for? Now you gonna start up a whole bees nest. Are you fishing here or what? <sigh> Can't wait to read everybody's reply to Tom. grub "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of"hypocrisy > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on Saturdays. > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racingexperience > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > collected. > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCARraces - > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, theydo

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> nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > yellow" as an example). > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race

that's

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> for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough of a > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent" to > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers, too! > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun and > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed

group > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run with us > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even though > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run withdamage, > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out halfthe > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for theremaining > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That'swhy > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no onecomplains > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporaryloss > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, wedon't > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR racerules....and

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> follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions they > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > really. > > This is just my two cents. > > Tom > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > <[email hidden]> > > writes: > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the

replay.

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> I > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide an > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a second > chance. > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it ANYWAY... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

Ah.........ok, whatever :) Boy, I think you've missed your calling; you should be a politician, as good as you can put a spin on things. John "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02...

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> John... > > Fair questions. Here's my answers: > > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I must > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points championship, > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate

interest > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the RASCAR > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that doesn't meanI > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nor does > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it > represents. > > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but justfor > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that league was > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't consider > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what our league > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't think"my > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I haven't > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise. > > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or whether you > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are going tolook > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to(initially > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who has been > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are incorrect, or > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You can ask > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years! Icare > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers. Sim > racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: The new > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans represent the > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some of you > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough, toone > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. And,that

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> is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they first come > into the public sim racing community. > > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you do > participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then your > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I urge > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have reason to > do so. > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" that you > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not comment

on > > other "leagues" too ? > > > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who didn't > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what wouldyou

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> > think ? Rude as hell imo. > > > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I don't > > comment on them. > > > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ? > > > > John > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > > > John.... > > > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about

"why > > I'm > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are not > > obvious > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in everyRASCAR

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> > race > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every

week, > > > it's > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, showup

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> at > > > > some more races :) > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of > > > > "hypocrisy > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on > > > Saturdays. > > > > > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing > > > > experience > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > > > > > collected. > > > > > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the

RASCAR > > > > races - > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reducethe > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally.While,

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> > > they > > > > do > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to > the > > > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do

you > > > have > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first > lap - > > > no > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don'teven > > > know > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a > race > > > > that's > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that resultin

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> > wall > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have > enough > > of > > > a > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper > > "deterrent" > > > to > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you

don't

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> > > have > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other > drivers, > > > too! > > > > > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or > > stupid > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the

field

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> > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for > "fun > > > and > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? > > That's > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a > mixed > > > > group > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run > > with > > > us > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races,

even > > > though > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't runwith > > > > damage, > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in thefirst

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> > few > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out > > half > > > > the > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the > > > > remaining > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. > > That's > > > > why > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one > > > > complains > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the > temporary > > > > loss > > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway).

And, > we > > > > don't > > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race > > > > rules....and > > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutesof > > the > > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place forthat

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> > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any > questions > > > they > > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any > more > > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? > Not > > > > > really. > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at > the > > > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at

the

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> > > > replay. > > > > > I > > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to > provide > > > an > > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a > > > second > > > > > chance. > > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it > > > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Eldred..... "Here we go again".....is directed right back at you! Why do you seem so "thin skinned" about this RASCAR stuff? I wonder? "Hypocrisy"....has a few definitions....the most common is something like this (according to my dictionary): "When actions are in conflict with principles or words." This is not a cuss word (at least not that I know of.....not in this country at least). Its not particularly negative even....except that one would have a difficult time accomplishing much in life if their actions were always in conflict with their words. I've used the word properly to describe what I perceive as a conflict between what seems to be your (collective) goals for RASCAR races, and the special rules you've implemented to conduct the races. Did I say, "Your mother's ugly and your sister's a hooker." Or something similar? Sorry, I didn't mean to! ....lol.... Whether you want to win isn't even questioned. The fact that RASCAR doesn't collect season points means the outcome of the races are for fun....and the personal fulfillment of the participants....what ever their personal goals with sim racing may be (which could be to win, to gain experience, get a top-10 finish...or a dozen others). I sim race because I like racing. I win less than 5% of the time, does this mean I don't have fun for 95% of the rest of the races? I don't really even understand the point you are trying to make about that......it totally escapes me. "I also know of *points* leagues that have a 'no racing back to yellow' rule (also in an attempt to avoid more incidents). Would you call them hypocritical as well?" <Pabst> Yes. If the league's charter was to provide a realistic racing environment for newbies. And, they held "mixed races" with experienced drivers and newbies running together. And, were attempting to reduce "incidents during cautions"......that would be in conflict with the "no racing back" rule implementation - in my experience and opinion. Whether they collect points or not....doesn't even matter to the point. "I disagree with your opinion. Hell, if we ran with no damage, I'd probably finish a LOT higher. I wouldn't be as worried about damaging my car, or taking someone else out of the race by forcing a pass. I could bounce off the walls(or other cars) without any concerns." <Pabst> Okay...now here we have a basic and fundamental difference of opinion about the "spirit" of competition and racing. Do you think a Winston Cup driver pulls out onto the race track every Sunday and says, "Okay, today I don't want to die or wreck my car....so, because that's possible, I'm not going to make any mistakes or do anything stupid. I certainly am not going to try to win, or to pass anyone, either!" So Eldred....since you know wrecks happen in real racing, mistakes made by veteran drivers......and they can die and their wrecks cost real money...........but even with all that, there's no real deterrent to making racing mistakes - Are you trying to tell me that having "damage turned on" in a racing sim is more of a deterrent to "dumbness" than dying in a real race car is? Of course you are not! The point is.....whether damage is turned on or off......will not effect the number of accidents made by mistakes or dumb moves, by the rookies. If you have a driver who is using the "no damage" to push his/her way around everyone....then that person is not a serious sim driver and shouldn't be in the RASCAR races in the first place! Or, maybe you think they should? In which case, I have no idea what you are doing the RASCAR races for. "Again, I object to you're calling our attempts at better racing "bicycle training wheel" rules. <Pabst> Eldred.....When I see a duck. I call it a "duck." Whether you like the term I use or not, I'm being honest and calling it as I see it. Any rule you introduce outside of the normal NASCAR racing rules.....that you think will reduce mistakes made by rookies......just won't. These are "training wheel" rules and they don't work. So, have a fit if you want to.....but I think you are not addressing the topic when you take it personal like this. "Honestly, I don't know what the hell else to DO! What would you suggest?" <Pabst> I have been making those "suggestions" in the form of constructive criticism for several weeks, maybe a couple months now. What's your point? "We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race." <Pabst> When did I suggest that "forcing" people to practice was essential to having a successful RASCAR series of races? I've only mentioned the topic when others, including yourself, have questioned how much practice is necessary to properly prepare for a serious sim race......how much do "veteran sim drivers" practice for their league races. What "signal" are you trying to send to the newbies? That they don't have to practice at all? Certainly, you can't be saying that. Are you saying you can invent "training wheel rules" that will replace experience, practice and preparation? I hope not. "We don't kick people out just because they may not have perfect car control." <Pabst> When did I suggest that, too? What I asked about was the possibility of having a second, "veterans only" RASCAR race on Saturday. Why is that interpreted by you as "kicking people out" of the open RASCAR race? "Faced with those two very important facts, I really don't see how to eliminate yellow flags." <Pabst> Now you got it! You can't "eliminate" yellow flags or accidents, or whatever......made as the result of rookie mistakes. You also can't even reduce them. Not with special rules or race procedures. You CAN do two things: 1. You can help to reduce incidents during RASCAR races due to newbies' mistakes.......by encourage them to practice and prepare for the races. But, that's all you can do....is "encourage" because as long as you allow anyone to enter the RASCAR races, with no "culpability" as to their background or online racing experience........you will always have wrecks and yellows due to rookie mistakes. You can not legislate them away with special rules! 2. You can "minimize the effect" on the other drivers.....from these mistakes/wrecks, etc., but you can't eliminate the mistakes/wrecks themselves. If you can't eliminate them (or even significantly reduce them), then why isn't minimizing their effect.....the next best step to take? Eldred....I want to close this post by telling you what I think about what you are trying to do with this RASCAR series on Saturday: 1. I think its fantastic. I've been coming to r.a.s. for about 5 years or more....and no one, except you has tried to do this. I have "thanked you" many times for doing it....I'm thanking you again, right now. 2. I do think you are not having fun doing this. Why? Well, maybe because you are trying to take on the whole "responsibility" yourself of seeing that the RASCAR races are successful and accomplish the goals you and others have suggested for them. I also think you should get some assistance in running the "servers" you have so graciously provided, so that burden is not on your shoulders every weekend. If you can't do that, perhaps cutting the RASCAR races to every other weekend or something, could reduce this burden on you? 3. Ultimately, if you are not personally having fun doing this.....it won't continue. So, I ask you to tell us....everyone who has run in a RASCAR race, everyone who may run in one in the future.....what it is that we (collectively) can do.....to make this more fun for you. I want you to continue.......I'm pretty sure that is not an isolated desire....lol.... So.....what is it we can do to make this more fun for you? Regards, Tom "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of"hypocrisy > >in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events onSaturdays. > > > Good grief - here we go again... :-( > I take offense at you calling it hypocrisy, Tom. > > >You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racingexperience > >for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are > >collected. > > No, we don't collect points, but I'm QUITE sure it matters who wins. Iknow > *I* would be happy if I won. If you don't want to win, why would you even > BOTHER? > > > >Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCARraces - > >"in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the > >"realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, theydo > >nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > >(everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the > >yellow" as an example). > > We started out running *exactly* like the WC drivers do(yellows, race tothe > line, double-file restarts). I even had forced cockpit view and forcedsmoke > set on the server. The changes in the rules were an attempt to decreasethe > number of yellows. I also know of *points* leagues that have a 'no racingback > to yellow' rule(also in an attempt to avoid more incidents). Would youcall

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> them hypocritical as well? > > > >If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have > >such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no > >matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know > >why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race

that's > >for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall > >contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough ofa > >"penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent"to > >doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have > >that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers,too!

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> > > >Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid > >induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field > >(especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun and > >experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's > >pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > I disagree with your opinion. Hell, if we ran with no damage, I'd

probably > finish a LOT higher. I wouldn't be as worried about damaging my car, ortaking > somone else out of the race by forcing a pass. I could bounce off thewalls(or > other cars) without any concerns. > > > > >I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixedgroup > >of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run withus > >are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, eventhough > >they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run withdamage, > >and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first > >lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few > >laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out halfthe > >field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for theremaining > >drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That'swhy > >we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no onecomplains > >about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporaryloss > >of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, wedon't > >make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > >(experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR racerules....and > >follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the > >"practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that > >particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questionsthey > >have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more > >"cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not > >really. > > No, your group of drivers sounds like they're just more skilled than ourgroup. > Either that, or you don't have as WIDE a disparity of skill levels as wedo. > Some of your guys might not have much sim experience, but they have realracing > experience. I think that helps a LOT. > Again, I object to you're calling our attempts at better racing "bicycle > training wheel" rules. Honestly, I don't know what the hell else to DO!What > would you suggest? > We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race. We don'tkick

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> people out just because they may not have perfect car control. Faced with > those two very important facts, I really don't see how to eliminate yellow > flags. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

John... I'm not trying to "put a spin" on anything. I think that many of today's current sim racers....and visitors to r.a.s, don't remember that sim racing is my full-time job (has been for the last three years...almost four years now). I think there's a future in this activity as an "e-sport"....and that means I can make a living doing what I love to do......sim race. Some people try to put me down for thinking that. I don't really care, I believe it will happen. Lots of people thought Bill France was an idiot.....50 years ago! That didn't stop him. [I'm not comparing myself to Bill France....just stating the comparison of the situations.] So.....I don't think about all this sim racing stuff in the same way......probably "most" of the other r.a.s. guys do. Because of that.....perhaps "my spin" as you call it......looks like something else that it is not. That is, I'm not being "insincere" which is normally what "putting a spin" on something usually means. I **am very serious** about sim racing. I love racing. I love sim racing because I consider it a valid part of the racing world. I do realize that this believe is probably still very much in the minority....even amongst sim racers. Regards, Tom "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ah.........ok, whatever :) Boy, I think you've missed your calling;you

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> should be a politician, as good as you can put a spin on things. > > John > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02... > > John... > > > > Fair questions. Here's my answers: > > > > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I must > > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points

championship, > > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate > interest > > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in theRASCAR > > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that doesn'tmean > I > > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nordoes > > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it > > represents. > > > > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but just > for > > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that leaguewas > > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't consider > > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what ourleague > > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't think > "my > > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I haven't > > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise. > > > > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or whetheryou > > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are going to > look > > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to > (initially > > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who hasbeen > > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are incorrect,or > > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You canask > > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long > > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years! I > care > > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers. Sim > > racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: Thenew > > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans represent the > > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some ofyou

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> > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough, to > one > > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. And, > that > > is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they first come > > into the public sim racing community. > > > > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you do > > participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then your > > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I

urge > > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have reasonto

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> > do so. > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" that

you > > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not comment > on > > > other "leagues" too ? > > > > > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone whodidn't > > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what would > you > > > think ? Rude as hell imo. > > > > > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why Idon't

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> > > comment on them. > > > > > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ? > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > > > > John.... > > > > > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about > "why > > > I'm > > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > > > > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are not > > > obvious > > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every > RASCAR > > > race > > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every > week, > > > > it's > > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show > up > > at > > > > > some more races :) > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit

of

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> > > > > "hypocrisy > > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on > > > > Saturdays. > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing > > > > > experience > > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points

are

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> > > > > > collected. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the > RASCAR > > > > > races - > > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce > the > > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. > While, > > > > they > > > > > do > > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers > > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back

to

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> > the > > > > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do > you > > > > have > > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first > > lap - > > > > no > > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't > even > > > > know > > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a > > race > > > > > that's > > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result > in > > > wall > > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have > > enough > > > of > > > > a > > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper > > > "deterrent" > > > > to > > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you > don't > > > > have > > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other > > drivers, > > > > too! > > > > > > > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced

or

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> > > stupid > > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the > field > > > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for > > "fun > > > > and > > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? > > > That's > > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a > > mixed > > > > > group > > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who

run

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> > > with > > > > us > > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, > even > > > > though > > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run > with > > > > > damage, > > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the

first > > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the > first > > > few > > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knockingout > > > half > > > > > the > > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, forthe > > > > > remaining > > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. > > > That's > > > > > why > > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and noone

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> > > > > complains > > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the > > temporary > > > > > loss > > > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). > And, > > we > > > > > don't > > > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant > > > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race > > > > > rules....and > > > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10

minutes

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> of > > > the > > > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for > that > > > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any > > questions > > > > they > > > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any > > more > > > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? > > Not > > > > > > really. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp"

at

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> > the > > > > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at > the > > > > > replay. > > > > > > I > > > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it. > > > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to > > provide > > > > an > > > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get

a

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> > > > second > > > > > > chance. > > > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it > > > > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Bhxc9.33199$[email hidden]>... > This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. I spend > half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one or two > pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole. You bastard ;-) I need to get *at least* a solid half hour in and watch the DW lesson *before* the half hour RASCAR practise. Depends on the track. Probably had an hour and a half of Calif. before the event and *still* backed into the wall on my own on lap 60. No, definately takes me time to get used to how a car handles at a track and prepare for how it reacts in traffic and when I'm forced off my preferred line, etc. You're a natural, and I'm jealous... Mark Reading, UK

In article <Bhxc9.33199$[email hidden]>, "frederickson" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race. We don't >kick >> people out just because they may not have perfect car control. Faced with >> those two very important facts, I really don't see how to eliminate yellow >> flags. > >This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. I spend >half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one or two >pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole.

Well, it's been suggested by some that are much faster than us, so... I know I've been shortchanging myself by not practicing, and it probably shows in my results. I'd normally run whatever laps I had time for on the race server, then my 1-2 qual laps. So most races I probably ran about 10-15 laps. As far as practice for this race - I practiced for about an hour doing solo laps. I also ran a couple of races against the AI(maybe 30-35 laps each). You know where I qualified? Last by almost .5 seconds. Even though I ran about 10 times the amount I normally do, it didn't do a fucking bit of good. I guess it would TAKE me 30 hours of practice to have a decent race... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Nonsense. You looked fine the finish of this last race.... "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <Bhxc9.33199$[email hidden]>,"frederickson" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race. Wedon't > >kick > >> people out just because they may not have perfect car control. Facedwith > >> those two very important facts, I really don't see how to eliminateyellow > >> flags. > > > >This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. Ispend > >half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one ortwo > >pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole. > > Well, it's been suggested by some that are much faster than us, so... Iknow > I've been shortchanging myself by not practicing, and it probably shows inmy > results. I'd normally run whatever laps I had time for on the raceserver, > then my 1-2 qual laps. So most races I probably ran about 10-15 laps. > As far as practice for this race - I practiced for about an hour doingsolo > laps. I also ran a couple of races against the AI(maybe 30-35 laps each).You > know where I qualified? Last by almost .5 seconds. Even though I ranabout 10 > times the amount I normally do, it didn't do a fucking bit of good. Iguess it

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> would TAKE me 30 hours of practice to have a decent race... :-( > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <lhBc9.269020$me6.33954@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Eldred... > >I've heard something along the lines of: "These RASCAR races are partly for >the benefit of the inexperienced sim racers to gain some experience racing >with the more experienced sim racers".....or something along those lines, in >response many times to my request for a "veterans only" additional RASCAR >race on Saturday. If you did not participate in that general "theme" of >response......I can't validate that or not without going back through >hundreds of posts, which I'm not going to do (at least not just to make a >point). Are you now saying that this "general theme" is not the case?

It was started as a way to get off the Sierra open servers. It's also a way for people who don't have the time or inclination to run in a league to compete. In other words, it was an alternative for people who didn't want to run in leagues or open races. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <CMBc9.165384$aA.32259@sccrnsc02>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Hmmmm, Eldred. I think you are being "picky" here. That topic has been >discussed, in one way or another....ever since I first even heard of the >RASCAR races (months ago). The fact that you tried limiting "race back" >only in the last few races is not germane to my point or posts about the >fact that it does not reduce incidents during caution laps. Even if it was >implemented only two races ago....then that's two weeks of discussion on the >topic in one form or another.....why are my comments about it then being >taken personal, as it seems to me you've gotten a little "huffy" in this >reply?

You said something to the effect that not racing back to the line doesn't reduce the extra incidents, and the RASCAR races show that every week. Since we've only recently TRIED that, it's not your proof. The last race or two HAS had fewer incidents coming to the yellow flag, so I'd say that actually works BETTER Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <k1Dc9.269932$me6.34698@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Here we go again".....is directed right back at you! Why do you seem so >"thin skinned" about this RASCAR stuff? I wonder? > >"Hypocrisy"....has a few definitions....the most common is something like >this (according to my dictionary): "When actions are in conflict with >principles or words." >This is not a cuss word (at least not that I know of.....not in this country >at least). Its not particularly negative even....except that one would have >a difficult time accomplishing much in life if their actions were always in >conflict with their words. I've used the word properly to describe what I >perceive as a conflict between what seems to be your (collective) goals for >RASCAR races, and the special rules you've implemented to conduct the races. >Did I say, "Your mother's ugly and your sister's a hooker." Or something >similar? Sorry, I didn't mean to! ....lol.... >

Hypocrisy to me means fake or false, even dishonest, if you stretch. Yes, I take offense to being called that, or having it implied towards something I'm involved with.

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>Whether you want to win isn't even questioned. The fact that RASCAR doesn't >collect season points means the outcome of the races are for fun....and the >personal fulfillment of the participants....what ever their personal goals >with sim racing may be (which could be to win, to gain experience, get a >top-10 finish...or a dozen others). I sim race because I like racing. I >win less than 5% of the time, does this mean I don't have fun for 95% of the >rest of the races? I don't really even understand the point you are trying >to make about that......it totally escapes me.

The point is that you are trying for a win every race. That's what makes it fun. Dismissing the value/feeling of victory just because we don't track points isn't right, IMO.

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> "I also know of *points* leagues that have a 'no racing back to yellow' >rule (also in an attempt to avoid more incidents). Would you call > them hypocritical as well?" ><Pabst> Yes. If the league's charter was to provide a realistic racing >environment for newbies. And, they held "mixed races" with experienced >drivers and newbies running together. And, were attempting to reduce >"incidents during cautions"......that would be in conflict with the "no >racing back" rule implementation - in my experience and opinion. Whether >they collect points or not....doesn't even matter to the point.

Trying to reduce incidents under caution is a hypocritical or bad thing?

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> >"I disagree with your opinion. Hell, if we ran with no damage, I'd probably >finish a LOT higher. I wouldn't be as worried about damaging my car, or >taking someone else out of the race by forcing a pass. I could bounce off >the walls(or other cars) without any concerns." ><Pabst> Okay...now here we have a basic and fundamental difference of >opinion about the "spirit" of competition and racing. Do you think a >Winston Cup driver pulls out onto the race track every Sunday and says, >"Okay, today I don't want to die or wreck my car....so, because that's >possible, I'm not going to make any mistakes or do anything stupid. I >certainly am not going to try to win, or to pass anyone, either!" So >Eldred....since you know wrecks happen in real racing, mistakes made by >veteran drivers......and they can die and their wrecks cost real >money...........but even with all that, there's no real deterrent to making >racing mistakes - Are you trying to tell me that having "damage turned on" >in a racing sim is more of a deterrent to "dumbness" than dying in a real >race car is? > Of course you are not!

That's a strawman argument. Totally ridiculous.

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>"Again, I object to you're calling our attempts at better racing "bicycle >training wheel" rules. ><Pabst> Eldred.....When I see a duck. I call it a "duck." Whether you >like the term I use or not, I'm being honest and calling it as I see it. >Any rule you introduce outside of the normal NASCAR racing rules.....that >you think will reduce mistakes made by rookies......just won't. These are >"training wheel" rules and they don't work. So, have a fit if you want >to.....but I think you are not addressing the topic when you take it >personal like this.

That's funny - I thought I *have* been addressing the topic. We have a lot of cautions. We also have a lot of incidents under caution. We're trying to reduce BOTH. I see that as VERY on topic, and worth doing everything in our power to do so. According to your logic, running 'no damage' or allowing restarts would be "training wheel" rules too, but you've done both in your races.

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> >"Honestly, I don't know what the hell else to DO! What would you suggest?" ><Pabst> I have been making those "suggestions" in the form of constructive >criticism for several weeks, maybe a couple months now. What's your point? > >"We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race." ><Pabst> When did I suggest that "forcing" people to practice was essential >to having a successful RASCAR series of races? I've only mentioned the >topic when others, including yourself, have questioned how much practice is >necessary to properly prepare for a serious sim race......how much do >"veteran sim drivers" practice for their league races. What "signal" are >you trying to send to the newbies? That they don't have to practice at all? >Certainly, you can't be saying that. Are you saying you can invent >"training wheel rules" that will replace experience, practice and >preparation? I hope not.

And it's impossible for the average person to practice 30-60 hours for weekly races. You simply don't have enough time. Most people would be hard pressed to even get that much practice for a MONTHLY race. Only kids on summer vacation have that kind of time to spend. >"We don't kick people out just because they may not have perfect car >control." ><Pabst> When did I suggest that, too? What I asked about was the >possibility of having a second, "veterans only" RASCAR race on Saturday. >Why is that interpreted by you as "kicking people out" of the open RASCAR >race? The argument here was that kicking out the inexperienced or simply less-skilled drivers should reduce the number(and/or severity) of the cautions we currently have. I wasn't even TALKING about a "veterans only" race... But since you brought it up, how would you determine a participation list for that again? Also, what rules would that race be run under?

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>"Faced with those two very important facts, I really don't see how to >eliminate yellow flags." ><Pabst> Now you got it! You can't "eliminate" yellow flags or accidents, >or whatever......made as the result of rookie mistakes. You also can't even >reduce them. Not with special rules or race procedures. You CAN do two >things: > >1. You can help to reduce incidents during RASCAR races due to newbies' >mistakes.......by encourage them to practice and prepare for the races. >But, that's all you can do....is "encourage" because as long as you allow >anyone to enter the RASCAR races, with no "culpability" as to their >background or online racing experience........you will always have wrecks >and yellows due to rookie mistakes. You can not legislate them away with >special rules! > >2. You can "minimize the effect" on the other drivers.....from these >mistakes/wrecks, etc., but you can't eliminate the mistakes/wrecks >themselves. If you can't eliminate them (or even significantly reduce >them), then why isn't minimizing their effect.....the next best step to >take?

So should we be running under "no damage", "no yellow flag" conditions? That would certainly minimize the effect of the crash, except everyone involved is now way behind.

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> >Eldred....I want to close this post by telling you what I think about what >you are trying to do with this RASCAR series on Saturday: > >1. I think its fantastic. I've been coming to r.a.s. for about 5 years or >more....and no one, except you has tried to do this. I have "thanked you" >many times for doing it....I'm thanking you again, right now. >2. I do think you are not having fun doing this. Why? Well, maybe because >you are trying to take on the whole "responsibility" yourself of seeing that >the RASCAR races are successful and accomplish the goals you and others have >suggested for them. I also think you should get some assistance in running >the "servers" you have so graciously provided, so that burden is not on your >shoulders every weekend. If you can't do that, perhaps cutting the RASCAR >races to every other weekend or something, could reduce this burden on you? >3. Ultimately, if you are not personally having fun doing this.....it won't >continue. So, I ask you to tell us....everyone who has run in a RASCAR >race, everyone who may run in one in the future.....what it is that we >(collectively) can do.....to make this more fun for you. I want you to >continue.......I'm pretty sure that is not an isolated desire....lol.... >So.....what is it we can do to make this more fun for you?

Running the server, in itself, is not a burden at all. It takes maybe 5 minutes to set it up. It's a 'fire and forget' type of thing thanks to John's DeMONS2 program, and I don't even have to be there for it to start. It takes maybe 15-20 minutes after the race to zip the replay, transfer to an FTP location, and update the webpage. The things that decrease my 'fun factor' are twofold. 1)I don't seem to have a snowball's chance of even getting a top-5 finish, let alone winning. I'm usually last on the grid, and last in the race, only beating those who disco or crash out. I've had people ask me why I even BOTHER if it isn't fun. Obviously I'm going to have to take a long hard look at my future participation. 2) Every race brings a torrent of arguments, finger-pointing, and hard feelings. That's a hassle to wade through all the time, y'know? Currently, I don't know how to solve EITHER of those issues, and I'm starting to think that it's impossible. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I saw that too. Didn't catch who chatted it though or where or when it happened. -Larry "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I saw someone say that their foot slipped off the gas pedal. How that > equates to getting sideways on the front straight, well, I just don't > know... :) > > > In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > >>What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a

wrecker? > > >>Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was allabout. > > > > > >Y'know, I *forgot* about that. I'll check the replay... > > > > I haven't looked at the server replay yet, but on my local replay itlooks like > > a massive warp. All I can see is Lee and Ed pacing the field, eventhough they > > were on row 3. Then DGF and JLe warp in and out a couple of times asthe flag > > falls. Fredrickson and PKroberts don't pop back in until the melee hadalready

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> > started... Whew! > > BTW, the results and replay are in the normal place: > > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/rascar.html > > > > Eldred > > > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

Not unless his foot slipped of the pedals, up from under the desk, riccocheted off his head, and then hit the wheel. That THAT, my friends, is one serious race driver :) -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, JohnSimmons

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> <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I saw someone say that their foot slipped off the gas pedal. How that > >equates to getting sideways on the front straight, well, I just don't > >know... :) > > Oh, ok - that might have been one of the cars on the front row. As I

said, I > don't see the front row in my replay until the accident is already underway.

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> But, yeah, I don't understand that excuse, either. :-) > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

That shouldn't affect us once connected though. Right ? -Larry "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uLxc9.22331$[email hidden]...

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> Seems like the last week has been full of huge latency spikes on Sierra. > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster > > <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes: > > > > >On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:28:01 GMT, "David G Fisher" > > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > >>I thought I was going to have a good lap after practice and

qualifying. > Got > > >>disco'd though while running in 4th and returned 5 laps down. Decidedto

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> > >>stick it out and got 3 back. > > > > > > > > >I feel your pain. Had it happen to me twice, in addition to a bogus > > >BF for trying to miss the lap 1 mahem. I was coming close to getting > > >back on the lead lap when it happend the second time. Between black > > >flags and the disconnects I have spent the last two weeks just trying > > >to get back on the lead lap. > > > > Must have been heavy weather(internet) yesterday. In the morning, I cot > > disco'd from a league race at Texas. I couldn't get back in after I got > > dropped to the sierra.com screen. I had to totally quit the program, > start it > > again, then log back into sierra.com and the race. It probably cost me > about > > 10 laps - not that it would have mattered anyway... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > >

My Cable connection was DOWN for 8 hours, and came back up 15 minutes before the race :) -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster > <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes: > > >On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:28:01 GMT, "David G Fisher" > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>I thought I was going to have a good lap after practice and qualifying.

Got

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> >>disco'd though while running in 4th and returned 5 laps down. Decided to > >>stick it out and got 3 back. > > > > > >I feel your pain. Had it happen to me twice, in addition to a bogus > >BF for trying to miss the lap 1 mahem. I was coming close to getting > >back on the lead lap when it happend the second time. Between black > >flags and the disconnects I have spent the last two weeks just trying > >to get back on the lead lap. > > Must have been heavy weather(internet) yesterday. In the morning, I cot > disco'd from a league race at Texas. I couldn't get back in after I got > dropped to the sierra.com screen. I had to totally quit the program,

start it > again, then log back into sierra.com and the race. It probably cost meabout

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> 10 laps - not that it would have mattered anyway... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldred, I see it precisely as you have described, and it serves this purpose PERFECTLY. I, for one, appreciate the fact that you set this up. -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <lhBc9.269020$me6.33954@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > > It was started as a way to get off the Sierra open servers. It's also away > for people who don't have the time or inclination to run in a league to > compete. In other words, it was an alternative for people who didn't wantto > run in leagues or open races. > > Eldred

For me it's more getting used to the limitations in the fast setup at a particular track. There's always something I'd like different :) On the other hand, it does even the field out, and I think makes driver skill and adaptability a primary consideration. It works for me because, frankly, as a crew chief I suck :) -Larry "Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<Bhxc9.33199$[email hidden]>... > > > This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. Ispend > > half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one ortwo

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> > pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole. > > You bastard ;-) > > I need to get *at least* a solid half hour in and watch the DW lesson > *before* the half hour RASCAR practise. Depends on the track. > Probably had an hour and a half of Calif. before the event and *still* > backed into the wall on my own on lap 60. > > No, definately takes me time to get used to how a car handles at a > track and prepare for how it reacts in traffic and when I'm forced off > my preferred line, etc. > > You're a natural, and I'm jealous... > > Mark > Reading, UK

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nALc9.34786$[email hidden]... > That shouldn't affect us once connected though. > > Right ? > > -Larry > What I was talkin about is HUGE spikes in latency in races on papy open servers. Bout 3 or 4 times this past week latency meter went all the way up, and every car on the track would be gone. I know it wasn't just my connection because of other people chatting about it.

Tom, Sorry - but I just got to ask: How the hell do you get anything done??? You just keep on talking and talking and talking and talking!!??!!! Is there anything out there you dont have to write a 20 page essay to answer/comment a question or topic? Really makes one wonder how long it would take you to order a meal in a good restaurant! -- ed_ "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding news:k1Dc9.269932$me6.34698@sccrnsc01... > Eldred..... > > "Here we go again"..... [zzzzzzzzz part SNIPPED!]

Ed Solheim wrote:

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> > Tom, > Sorry - but I just got to ask: > How the hell do you get anything done??? You just keep on talking and > talking and talking and talking!!??!!! Is there anything out there you > dont have to write a 20 page essay to answer/comment a question or topic? > Really makes one wonder how long it would take you to order a meal in a good > restaurant!

Or a bad restaurant even, how about a burger at Mac ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

I write fast.....know what I want to say, and say it. That post took me no more than 10 minutes. It was important, I thought...to give 10 minutes of my day. Sorry, that bothered you. TP "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message news:M4Qc9.17011$[email hidden]... > Tom, > Sorry - but I just got to ask: > How the hell do you get anything done??? You just keep on talking and > talking and talking and talking!!??!!! Is there anything out there you > dont have to write a 20 page essay to answer/comment a question or topic? > Really makes one wonder how long it would take you to order a meal in agood

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> restaurant! > > -- > ed_ > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding > news:k1Dc9.269932$me6.34698@sccrnsc01... > > Eldred..... > > > > "Here we go again"..... [zzzzzzzzz part SNIPPED!] > >

Tom Pabst wrote: > > I write fast..... And I thought the English was the masters of understatement Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Lol, I rest my case. John "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:veDc9.166200$aA.33828@sccrnsc02... > John... > > I'm not trying to "put a spin" on anything. I think that many of today's > current sim racers....and visitors to r.a.s, don't remember that simracing > is my full-time job (has been for the last three years...almost four years > now). I think there's a future in this activity as an "e-sport"....andthat > means I can make a living doing what I love to do......sim race. Some > people try to put me down for thinking that. I don't really care, Ibelieve

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> it will happen. Lots of people thought Bill France was an idiot.....50 > years ago! That didn't stop him. [I'm not comparing myself to Bill > France....just stating the comparison of the situations.] > > So.....I don't think about all this sim racing stuff in the same > way......probably "most" of the other r.a.s. guys do. Because of > that.....perhaps "my spin" as you call it......looks like something else > that it is not. That is, I'm not being "insincere" which is normally what > "putting a spin" on something usually means. I **am very serious** about > sim racing. > > I love racing. I love sim racing because I consider it a valid part of

the > racing world. I do realize that this believe is probably still very muchin

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> the minority....even amongst sim racers. > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Ah.........ok, whatever :) Boy, I think you've missed your calling; > you > > should be a politician, as good as you can put a spin on things. > > > > John > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02... > > > John... > > > > > > Fair questions. Here's my answers: > > > > > > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I must > > > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points > championship, > > > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate > > interest > > > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the > RASCAR > > > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that doesn't > mean > > I > > > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nor > does > > > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it > > > represents. > > > > > > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but

just

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> > for > > > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that league > was > > > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't consider > > > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what our > league > > > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't

think > > "my > > > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and Ihaven't

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> > > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise. > > > > > > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or whether > you > > > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are going to > > look > > > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to > > (initially > > > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who has > been > > > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are

incorrect, > or > > > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You can > ask > > > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long > > > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years!I > > care > > > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers.Sim > > > racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: The > new > > > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans representthe > > > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some of > you > > > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough,to > > one > > > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. And, > > that > > > is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they firstcome > > > into the public sim racing community. > > > > > > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you do > > > participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....thenyour > > > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I > urge > > > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you havereason

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> to > > > do so. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" that > you > > > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not

comment > > on > > > > other "leagues" too ? > > > > > > > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who > didn't > > > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, whatwould

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> > you > > > > think ? Rude as hell imo. > > > > > > > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I > don't > > > > comment on them. > > > > > > > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ? > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > > > > > John.... > > > > > > > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about > > "why > > > > I'm > > > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > > > > > > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are

not

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> > > > obvious > > > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every > > RASCAR > > > > race > > > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > > > > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every > > week, > > > > > it's > > > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it,

show

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> > up > > > at > > > > > > some more races :) > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit > of > > > > > > "hypocrisy > > > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events

on > > > > > Saturdays. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND forracing

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> > > > > > experience > > > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points > are > > > > > > > collected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the > > RASCAR > > > > > > races - > > > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but

reduce > > the > > > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. > > While, > > > > > they > > > > > > do > > > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookiedrivers > > > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back > to > > > the > > > > > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then whydo > > you > > > > > have > > > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on thefirst > > > lap - > > > > > no > > > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, Idon't > > even > > > > > know > > > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless ina > > > race > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race thatresult

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> > in > > > > wall > > > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have > > > enough > > > > of > > > > > a > > > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper > > > > "deterrent" > > > > > to > > > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you > > don't > > > > > have > > > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other > > > drivers, > > > > > too! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced > or > > > > stupid > > > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the > > field > > > > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running

for > > > "fun > > > > > and > > > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting therace? > > > > That's > > > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We area

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> > > mixed > > > > > > group > > > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who > run > > > > with > > > > > us > > > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, > > even > > > > > though > > > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run > > with > > > > > > damage, > > > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the > first > > > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the > > first > > > > few > > > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking > out > > > > half > > > > > > the > > > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for > the > > > > > > remaining > > > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked

out.

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> > > > That's > > > > > > why > > > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no > one > > > > > > complains > > > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the > > > temporary > > > > > > loss > > > > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). > > And, > > > we > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a

participant

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> > > > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race > > > > > > rules....and > > > > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 > minutes > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place

for > > that > > > > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any > > > questions > > > > > they > > > > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't haveany > > > more > > > > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks.Amazing?

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> > > Not > > > > > > > really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big

"warp" > at > > > the > > > > > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I lookedat > > the > > > > > > replay. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't seeit. > > > > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to > > > provide > > > > > an > > > > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won'tget > a > > > > > second > > > > > > > chance. > > > > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't doit

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> > > > > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

While I have not been able to race with you guys like I would like, I see it and always have the same as well. Seems pretty simple to me, and I think it is awesome Eldred provides the server for folks that frequent this forum to get together and race on. Don Burnette "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rNLc9.34803$[email hidden]...

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> Eldred, > > I see it precisely as you have described, and it serves this purpose > PERFECTLY. > > I, for one, appreciate the fact that you set this up. > > -Larry > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <lhBc9.269020$me6.33954@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" > <[email hidden]> > > > > > It was started as a way to get off the Sierra open servers. It's also a > way > > for people who don't have the time or inclination to run in a league to > > compete. In other words, it was an alternative for people who didn't

want > to > > run in leagues or open races. > > > > Eldred > >

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> I've had people ask me why I even BOTHER if it isn't fun. > Obviously I'm going to have to take a long hard look at my future > participation. > 2) Every race brings a torrent of arguments, finger-pointing, and hard > feelings. That's a hassle to wade through all the time, y'know? > > Currently, I don't know how to solve EITHER of those issues, and I'm starting > to think that it's impossible.

Eldred - I'll tell you why you should keep at it: Because we love ya for it, baby! There is a some bickering (and with the odd exception that's all it seems to be - heat of the moment bickering), but on the whole I think it's brought the RAS community together a bit more. For once I've raced (and been soundly beaten) by people who've been merely familiar names for years. I've had to adjust my perceptions of some who I thought were maybe all talk and no trousers. Which is a good thing. Mark Reading, UK

Well, dang. I usually spend a few hours in my first session at a new track, running around by myself and then with the AI around 97%. I usually start with a baseline setup or one derived from a similar track, and I work on it the whole time. Eventually I get pretty comfortable in the car. Except at Infineon. (Did they really decide to change it to this? blech...) Then I do the same thing again about two days later (sleep helps my brain digestion) and usually find a bunch of speed. On each of these nights I usually try to go find a pickup race to see if I am on the right track - *pun intended*. I spend way more time practicing and working on setups than I ever do racing. Gerald [email hidden] (Mark) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Bhxc9.33199$[email hidden]>... > > > This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. I spend > > half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one or two > > pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole. > > You bastard ;-) > > I need to get *at least* a solid half hour in and watch the DW lesson > *before* the half hour RASCAR practise. Depends on the track. > Probably had an hour and a half of Calif. before the event and *still* > backed into the wall on my own on lap 60. > > No, definately takes me time to get used to how a car handles at a > track and prepare for how it reacts in traffic and when I'm forced off > my preferred line, etc. > > You're a natural, and I'm jealous... > > Mark > Reading, UK

No....I rest mine. TP "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Lol, I rest my case. > > John > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:veDc9.166200$aA.33828@sccrnsc02... > > John... > > > > I'm not trying to "put a spin" on anything. I think that many of

today's > > current sim racers....and visitors to r.a.s, don't remember that sim > racing > > is my full-time job (has been for the last three years...almost fouryears

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> > now). I think there's a future in this activity as an "e-sport"....and > that > > means I can make a living doing what I love to do......sim race. Some > > people try to put me down for thinking that. I don't really care, I > believe > > it will happen. Lots of people thought Bill France was an idiot.....50 > > years ago! That didn't stop him. [I'm not comparing myself to Bill > > France....just stating the comparison of the situations.] > > > > So.....I don't think about all this sim racing stuff in the same > > way......probably "most" of the other r.a.s. guys do. Because of > > that.....perhaps "my spin" as you call it......looks like something else > > that it is not. That is, I'm not being "insincere" which is normally

what > > "putting a spin" on something usually means. I **am very serious**about > > sim racing. > > > > I love racing. I love sim racing because I consider it a valid part of > the > > racing world. I do realize that this believe is probably still verymuch

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> in > > the minority....even amongst sim racers. > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Ah.........ok, whatever :) Boy, I think you've missed your

calling;

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> > you > > > should be a politician, as good as you can put a spin on things. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02... > > > > John... > > > > > > > > Fair questions. Here's my answers: > > > > > > > > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I

must

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> > > > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points > > championship, > > > > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate > > > interest > > > > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the > > RASCAR > > > > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that

doesn't

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> > mean > > > I > > > > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nor > > does > > > > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it > > > > represents. > > > > > > > > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but > just > > > for > > > > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that

league > > was > > > > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn'tconsider

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> > > > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what our > > league > > > > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't > think > > > "my > > > > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I > haven't > > > > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise. > > > > > > > > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or

whether > > you > > > > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are goingto

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> > > look > > > > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to > > > (initially > > > > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who has > > been > > > > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are > incorrect, > > or > > > > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You

can

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> > ask > > > > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long > > > > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years! > I > > > care > > > > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers. > Sim > > > > racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect:

The > > new > > > > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans represent > the > > > > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Someof > > you > > > > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough, > to > > > one > > > > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group.And, > > > that > > > > is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they first > come > > > > into the public sim racing community. > > > > > > > > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but youdo

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> > > > participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then > your > > > > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I > > urge > > > > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have > reason > > to > > > > do so. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league"

that

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> > you > > > > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not > comment > > > on > > > > > other "leagues" too ? > > > > > > > > > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who > > didn't > > > > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what > would > > > you > > > > > think ? Rude as hell imo. > > > > > > > > > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I > > don't > > > > > comment on them. > > > > > > > > > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ? > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > > > > > > John.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned

about

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> > > "why > > > > > I'm > > > > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > > > > > > > > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are > not > > > > > obvious > > > > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every > > > RASCAR > > > > > race > > > > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ?

Every

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> > > week, > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, > show > > > up > > > > at > > > > > > > some more races :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a

bit

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> > of > > > > > > > "hypocrisy > > > > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events > on > > > > > > Saturdays. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for > racing > > > > > > > experience > > > > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no

points > > are > > > > > > > > collected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism ofthe

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> > > RASCAR > > > > > > > races - > > > > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but > reduce > > > the > > > > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. > > > While, > > > > > > they > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie > drivers > > > > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing

back > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" thenwhy

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> do > > > you > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the > first > > > > lap - > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I > don't > > > even > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless

in

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> a > > > > race > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that > result > > > in > > > > > wall > > > > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves

have

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> > > > enough > > > > > of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper > > > > > "deterrent" > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned

off.....you

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> > > don't > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other > > > > drivers, > > > > > > too! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp

induced > > or > > > > > stupid > > > > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion ofthe

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> > > field > > > > > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running > for > > > > "fun > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the > race? > > > > > That's > > > > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my

opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. Weare > a > > > > mixed > > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world driverswho > > run > > > > > with > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these onlineraces, > > > even > > > > > > though > > > > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don'trun > > > with > > > > > > > damage, > > > > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the > > first > > > > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck inthe > > > first > > > > > few > > > > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience.Knocking > > out > > > > > half > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race,for

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> > the > > > > > > > remaining > > > > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked > out. > > > > > That's > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and

no > > one > > > > > > > complains > > > > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the > > > > temporary > > > > > > > loss > > > > > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time,anyway). > > > And, > > > > we > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a > participant > > > > > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCARrace

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> > > > > > > rules....and > > > > > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 > > minutes > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place > for > > > that > > > > > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any > > > > questions > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have > any > > > > more > > > > > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. > Amazing? > > > > Not > > > > > > > > really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" > > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big > "warp" > > at > > > > the > > > > > > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I

looked

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> at > > > the > > > > > > > replay. > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see > it. > > > > > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed

to

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> > > > provide > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't > get > > a > > > > > > second > > > > > > > > chance. > > > > > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't

do

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> it > > > > > > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

That would be the Papy Servers, not the WON Service causing the spikes. I agree with your assessment. I"ve also noted the spikes on Papy servers. I would be suprised if they all aren't served by the same pipe/backbone. There's a LOT of Papy servers. They might have too much going on with that pipe these days. -Larry "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uaMc9.47078$[email hidden]...

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> > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:nALc9.34786$[email hidden]... > > That shouldn't affect us once connected though. > > > > Right ? > > > > -Larry > > > > What I was talkin about is HUGE spikes in latency in races on papy open > servers. Bout 3 or 4 times this past week latency meter went all the way

up, > and every car on the track would be gone. I know it wasn't just my > connection because of other people chatting about it. > > >

MOM!!! He's looking at me!!! "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%%5d9.185181$aA.36495@sccrnsc02...

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> No....I rest mine. > > TP > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Lol, I rest my case. > > > > John > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:veDc9.166200$aA.33828@sccrnsc02... > > > John... > > > > > > I'm not trying to "put a spin" on anything. I think that many of > today's > > > current sim racers....and visitors to r.a.s, don't remember that sim > > racing > > > is my full-time job (has been for the last three years...almost four > years > > > now). I think there's a future in this activity as an

"e-sport"....and > > that > > > means I can make a living doing what I love to do......sim race. Some > > > people try to put me down for thinking that. I don't really care, I > > believe > > > it will happen. Lots of people thought Bill France was anidiot.....50 > > > years ago! That didn't stop him. [I'm not comparing myself to Bill > > > France....just stating the comparison of the situations.] > > > > > > So.....I don't think about all this sim racing stuff in the same > > > way......probably "most" of the other r.a.s. guys do. Because of > > > that.....perhaps "my spin" as you call it......looks like somethingelse

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> > > that it is not. That is, I'm not being "insincere" which is normally > what > > > "putting a spin" on something usually means. I **am very serious** > about > > > sim racing. > > > > > > I love racing. I love sim racing because I consider it a valid part

of

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> > the > > > racing world. I do realize that this believe is probably still very > much > > in > > > the minority....even amongst sim racers. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Ah.........ok, whatever :) Boy, I think you've missed your > calling; > > > you > > > > should be a politician, as good as you can put a spin on things. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02... > > > > > John... > > > > > > > > > > Fair questions. Here's my answers: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I > must > > > > > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points > > > championship, > > > > > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no

innate

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> > > > interest > > > > > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the > > > RASCAR > > > > > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that > doesn't > > > mean > > > > I > > > > > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time.

Nor

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> > > does > > > > > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it > > > > > represents. > > > > > > > > > > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but > > just > > > > for > > > > > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that > league > > > was > > > > > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't > consider > > > > > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what

our

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> > > league > > > > > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't > > think > > > > "my > > > > > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I > > haven't > > > > > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or > whether > > > you > > > > > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are

going > to > > > > look > > > > > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to > > > > (initially > > > > > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or whohas

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> > > been > > > > > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are > > incorrect, > > > or > > > > > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You > can > > > ask > > > > > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a

long > > > > > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than fiveyears!

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> > I > > > > care > > > > > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers. > > Sim > > > > > racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: > The > > > new > > > > > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans

represent > > the > > > > > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some > of > > > you > > > > > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its seriousenough, > > to > > > > one > > > > > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. > And, > > > > that > > > > > is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when theyfirst

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> > come > > > > > into the public sim racing community. > > > > > > > > > > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you > do > > > > > participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then > > your > > > > > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine.

I

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> > > urge > > > > > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have > > reason > > > to > > > > > do so. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" > that > > > you > > > > > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not > > comment > > > > on > > > > > > other "leagues" too ? > > > > > > > > > > > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who > > > didn't > > > > > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what > > would > > > > you > > > > > > think ? Rude as hell imo. > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why

I > > > don't > > > > > > comment on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same?

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> > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > > > > > > > John.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned > about > > > > "why > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general

discussion.....are > > not > > > > > > obvious > > > > > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate inevery

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> > > > RASCAR > > > > > > race > > > > > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? > Every > > > > week, > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in

it,

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> > show > > > > up > > > > > at > > > > > > > > some more races :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a > bit > > > of > > > > > > > > "hypocrisy > > > > > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR

events

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> > on > > > > > > > Saturdays. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for > > racing > > > > > > > > experience > > > > > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no > points > > > are > > > > > > > > > collected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of > the > > > > RASCAR > > > > > > > > races - > > > > > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but > > reduce > > > > the > > > > > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies

incrementally.

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> > > > While, > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie > > drivers > > > > > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing > back > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then > why > > do > > > > you > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the > > first > > > > > lap - > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I > > don't > > > > even > > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's

pointless

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> in > > a > > > > > race > > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that > > result > > > > in > > > > > > wall > > > > > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves > have > > > > > enough > > > > > > of > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a

proper

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> > > > > > "deterrent" > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned > off.....you > > > > don't > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several

other

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> > > > > drivers, > > > > > > > too! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp > induced > > > or > > > > > > stupid > > > > > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of > the > > > > field > > > > > > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are

running

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> > for > > > > > "fun > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the > > race? > > > > > > That's > > > > > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my > opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We > are > > a > > > > > mixed > > > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers > who > > > run > > > > > > with > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online > races, > > > > even > > > > > > > though > > > > > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't > run > > > > with > > > > > > > > damage, > > > > > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on

the

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> > > first > > > > > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in > the > > > > first > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. > Knocking > > > out > > > > > > half > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, > for > > > the > > > > > > > > remaining > > > > > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked > > out. > > > > > > That's > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and > no > > > one > > > > > > > > complains > > > > > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh

the

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> > > > > temporary > > > > > > > > loss > > > > > > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, > anyway). > > > > And, > > > > > we > > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a > > participant > > > > > > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR > race > > > > > > > > rules....and > > > > > > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 > > > minutes > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in

place > > for > > > > that > > > > > > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to askany > > > > > questions > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don'thave

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> > any > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. > > Amazing? > > > > > Not > > > > > > > > > really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom

Pabst"

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> > > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big > > "warp" > > > at > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > > > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I > looked > > at > > > > the > > > > > > > > replay. > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't

see > > it. > > > > > > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That'ssupposed > to > > > > > provide > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that youwon't

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> > get > > > a > > > > > > > second > > > > > > > > > chance. > > > > > > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't > do > > it > > > > > > > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > > > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

shut up or im gonna git your daddies to whip you when they get home!!! Now get out of here now before i burn you with my cigarette. Kids!!! you give them a nice trailer to live in and they don't appreciate nuthin!! where did i put that tv guide. trailer-bat "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mXbd9.38400$[email hidden]...

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> MOM!!! He's looking at me!!! > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%%5d9.185181$aA.36495@sccrnsc02... > > No....I rest mine. > > > > TP > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Lol, I rest my case. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:veDc9.166200$aA.33828@sccrnsc02... > > > > John... > > > > > > > > I'm not trying to "put a spin" on anything. I think that many of > > today's > > > > current sim racers....and visitors to r.a.s, don't remember that sim > > > racing > > > > is my full-time job (has been for the last three years...almost four > > years > > > > now). I think there's a future in this activity as an > "e-sport"....and > > > that > > > > means I can make a living doing what I love to do......sim race.

Some

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> > > > people try to put me down for thinking that. I don't really care, I > > > believe > > > > it will happen. Lots of people thought Bill France was an > idiot.....50 > > > > years ago! That didn't stop him. [I'm not comparing myself to Bill > > > > France....just stating the comparison of the situations.] > > > > > > > > So.....I don't think about all this sim racing stuff in the same > > > > way......probably "most" of the other r.a.s. guys do. Because of > > > > that.....perhaps "my spin" as you call it......looks like something > else > > > > that it is not. That is, I'm not being "insincere" which is

normally

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> > what > > > > "putting a spin" on something usually means. I **am very serious** > > about > > > > sim racing. > > > > > > > > I love racing. I love sim racing because I consider it a valid part > of > > > the > > > > racing world. I do realize that this believe is probably still very > > much > > > in > > > > the minority....even amongst sim racers. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Ah.........ok, whatever :) Boy, I think you've missed your > > calling; > > > > you > > > > > should be a politician, as good as you can put a spin on things. > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02... > > > > > > John... > > > > > > > > > > > > Fair questions. Here's my answers: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that

I

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> > must > > > > > > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points > > > > championship, > > > > > > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no > innate > > > > > interest > > > > > > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in

the

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > > RASCAR > > > > > > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that > > doesn't > > > > mean > > > > > I > > > > > > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. > Nor > > > > does > > > > > > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what

it > > > > > > represents. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at themoment....but

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> > > just > > > > > for > > > > > > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that > > league > > > > was > > > > > > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't > > consider > > > > > > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what > our > > > > league > > > > > > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I

don't

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> > > think > > > > > "my > > > > > > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I > > > haven't > > > > > > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or > > whether > > > > you > > > > > > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are > going > > to > > > > > look > > > > > > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going

to

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> > > > > (initially > > > > > > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who > has > > > > been > > > > > > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are > > > incorrect, > > > > or > > > > > > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up.

You

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> > can > > > > ask > > > > > > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a > long > > > > > > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five > years! > > > I > > > > > care > > > > > > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim

drivers. > > > Sim > > > > > > racing is no different than real-world racing in this oneaspect: > > The > > > > new > > > > > > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans > represent > > > the > > > > > > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game."Some

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > of > > > > you > > > > > > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious > enough, > > > to > > > > > one > > > > > > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. > > And, > > > > > that > > > > > > is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they > first > > > come > > > > > > into the public sim racing community. > > > > > > > > > > > > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but

you > > do > > > > > > participate (or have the option to do so) in some ofthem.....then > > > your > > > > > > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome asmine.

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> I > > > > urge > > > > > > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have > > > reason > > > > to > > > > > > do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a

"league"

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> > that > > > > you > > > > > > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not > > > comment > > > > > on > > > > > > > other "leagues" too ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone

who > > > > didn't > > > > > > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run,what > > > would > > > > > you > > > > > > > think ? Rude as hell imo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That'swhy > I > > > > don't > > > > > > > comment on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing thesame

Quoted text (47 lines)

> ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > > > > > > > > John.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned > > about > > > > > "why > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general > discussion.....are > > > not > > > > > > > obvious > > > > > > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in > every > > > > > RASCAR > > > > > > > race > > > > > > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? > > Every > > > > > week, > > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in > it, > > > show > > > > > up > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > some more races :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's

a

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> > bit > > > > of > > > > > > > > > "hypocrisy > > > > > > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR > events > > > on > > > > > > > > Saturdays. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND

for

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> > > racing > > > > > > > > > experience > > > > > > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no > > points > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > collected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism

of

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> > the > > > > > RASCAR > > > > > > > > > races - > > > > > > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but > > > reduce > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies > incrementally. > > > > > While, > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie > > > drivers > > > > > > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not

racing > > back > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience"then > > why > > > do > > > > > you > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash onthe > > > first > > > > > > lap - > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell,I

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> > > don't > > > > > even > > > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's > pointless > > in > > > a > > > > > > race > > > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race

that > > > result > > > > > in > > > > > > > wall > > > > > > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - inthemselves

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> > have > > > > > > enough > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a > proper > > > > > > > "deterrent" > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned > > off.....you > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several > other > > > > > > drivers, > > > > > > > > too! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp > > induced > > > > or > > > > > > > stupid > > > > > > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion

of

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> > the > > > > > field > > > > > > > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are > running > > > for > > > > > > "fun > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting

the > > > race? > > > > > > > That's > > > > > > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my > > opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks.We > > are > > > a > > > > > > mixed > > > > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-worlddrivers

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> > who > > > > run > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online > > races, > > > > > even > > > > > > > > though > > > > > > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We

don't

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> > run > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > damage, > > > > > > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on > the > > > > first > > > > > > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck

in

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> > the > > > > > first > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. > > Knocking > > > > out > > > > > > > half > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the

race, > > for > > > > the > > > > > > > > > remaining > > > > > > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for thoseknocked > > > out. > > > > > > > That's > > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically(and

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> > no > > > > one > > > > > > > > > complains > > > > > > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh > the > > > > > > temporary > > > > > > > > > loss > > > > > > > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, > > anyway). > > > > > And, > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a > > > participant > > > > > > > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the

NASCAR > > race > > > > > > > > > rules....and > > > > > > > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last10

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> > > > minutes > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in > place > > > for > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask > any > > > > > > questions > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't > have > > > any > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. > > > Amazing? > > > > > > Not > > > > > > > > > > really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom > Pabst" > > > > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big > > > "warp" > > > > at > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > > > > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I > > looked > > > at > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > replay. > > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't > see > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's > supposed > > to > > > > > > provide > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you > won't > > > get > > > > a > > > > > > > > second > > > > > > > > > > chance. > > > > > > > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I

couldn't

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> > do > > > it > > > > > > > > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > > > > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

See? I can make short posts! Don't like to do it, though! ....lol... TP PS: I think Ed was just needing to kick "old Tom Pabst" around a little......he needs his "fix" doing that once a week! -:) I'm getting used to it. Even, kind of like it sometimes! Oh man! Did I say that? "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > I write fast..... > > And I thought the English was the masters of understatement > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

"Ed Solheim" wrote:

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> Tom, > Sorry - but I just got to ask: > How the hell do you get anything done??? You just keep on talking and > talking and talking and talking!!??!!! Is there anything out there you > dont have to write a 20 page essay to answer/comment a question or topic? > Really makes one wonder how long it would take you to order a meal in a good > restaurant!

Just hope he doesn't take your order :-)

On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 21:32:06 GMT, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >And I thought the English was the masters of understatement "And I thought the English were the masters of understatement" Jason the subjunctive case Nazi ----- GPLRank 24.50 N2002Rank -12.995

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 21:32:06 GMT, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >And I thought the English was the masters of understatement > > "And I thought the English were the masters of understatement" > > Jason the subjunctive case Nazi > > ----- > GPLRank 24.50

Less time being pernicketty, more time getting your GPL Rank down, young man :-))))

LOL! Anyone with a Sister hasn't made it through life without being given the Mom/Looking treatment at least once :) -Larry "grubbat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> shut up or im gonna git your daddies to whip you when they get home!!! > Now get out of here now before i burn you with my cigarette. > Kids!!! you give them a nice trailer to live in and they don't appreciate > nuthin!! > > where did i put that tv guide. > > trailer-bat > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mXbd9.38400$[email hidden]... > > MOM!!! He's looking at me!!! > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%%5d9.185181$aA.36495@sccrnsc02... > > > No....I rest mine. > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Lol, I rest my case. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:veDc9.166200$aA.33828@sccrnsc02... > > > > > John... > > > > > > > > > > I'm not trying to "put a spin" on anything. I think that many of > > > today's > > > > > current sim racers....and visitors to r.a.s, don't remember that

sim > > > > racing > > > > > is my full-time job (has been for the last three years...almostfour

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> > > years > > > > > now). I think there's a future in this activity as an > > "e-sport"....and > > > > that > > > > > means I can make a living doing what I love to do......sim race. > Some > > > > > people try to put me down for thinking that. I don't really care,

I > > > > believe > > > > > it will happen. Lots of people thought Bill France was an > > idiot.....50 > > > > > years ago! That didn't stop him. [I'm not comparing myself toBill > > > > > France....just stating the comparison of the situations.] > > > > > > > > > > So.....I don't think about all this sim racing stuff in the same > > > > > way......probably "most" of the other r.a.s. guys do. Because of > > > > > that.....perhaps "my spin" as you call it......looks likesomething > > else > > > > > that it is not. That is, I'm not being "insincere" which is > normally > > > what > > > > > "putting a spin" on something usually means. I **am veryserious** > > > about > > > > > sim racing. > > > > > > > > > > I love racing. I love sim racing because I consider it a validpart > > of > > > > the > > > > > racing world. I do realize that this believe is probably stillvery

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> > > much > > > > in > > > > > the minority....even amongst sim racers. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Ah.........ok, whatever :) Boy, I think you've missed your > > > calling; > > > > > you > > > > > > should be a politician, as good as you can put a spin on things. > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02... > > > > > > > John... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fair questions. Here's my answers: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense

that

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> I > > > must > > > > > > > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points > > > > > championship, > > > > > > > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no > > innate > > > > > > interest > > > > > > > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in > the > > > > > RASCAR > > > > > > > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that > > > doesn't > > > > > mean > > > > > > I > > > > > > > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to

time. > > Nor > > > > > does > > > > > > > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing orwhat

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> it > > > > > > > represents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the > moment....but > > > > just > > > > > > for > > > > > > > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in

that > > > league > > > > > was > > > > > > > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't > > > consider > > > > > > > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest inwhat

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> > our > > > > > league > > > > > > > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I > don't > > > > think > > > > > > "my > > > > > > > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and

I

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> > > > haven't > > > > > > > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or > > > whether > > > > > you > > > > > > > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are > > going > > > to > > > > > > look > > > > > > > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going > to > > > > > > (initially > > > > > > > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or

who

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> > has > > > > > been > > > > > > > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are > > > > incorrect, > > > > > or > > > > > > > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. > You > > > can > > > > > ask > > > > > > > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for

a

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> > long > > > > > > > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five > > years! > > > > I > > > > > > care > > > > > > > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim > drivers. > > > > Sim > > > > > > > racing is no different than real-world racing in this one > aspect: > > > The > > > > > new > > > > > > > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans > > represent > > > > the > > > > > > > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." > Some > > > of > > > > > you > > > > > > > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious > > enough, > > > > to > > > > > > one > > > > > > > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last

group.

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> > > And, > > > > > > that > > > > > > > is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they > > first > > > > come > > > > > > > into the public sim racing community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but > you > > > do > > > > > > > participate (or have the option to do so) in some of > them.....then > > > > your > > > > > > > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as > mine. > > I > > > > > urge > > > > > > > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you

have

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> > > > reason > > > > > to > > > > > > > do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a > "league" > > > that > > > > > you > > > > > > > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why

not

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> > > > comment > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > other "leagues" too ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone > who > > > > > didn't > > > > > > > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, > what > > > > would > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > think ? Rude as hell imo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's > why > > I > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > comment on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the > same > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03... > > > > > > > > > John.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so

concerned

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> > > about > > > > > > "why > > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general > > discussion.....are > > > > not > > > > > > > > obvious > > > > > > > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in > > every > > > > > > RASCAR > > > > > > > > race > > > > > > > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run

? > > > Every > > > > > > week, > > > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interestedin

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> > it, > > > > show > > > > > > up > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > some more races :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02... > > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me

there's

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> a > > > bit > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > "hypocrisy > > > > > > > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR > > events > > > > on > > > > > > > > > Saturdays. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND > for > > > > racing > > > > > > > > > > experience > > > > > > > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and

no

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> > > points > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > collected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism > of > > > the > > > > > > RASCAR > > > > > > > > > > races - > > > > > > > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing

but

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> > > > reduce > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies > > incrementally. > > > > > > While, > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with

rookie

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> > > > drivers > > > > > > > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not > racing > > > back > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > yellow" as an example). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" > then > > > why > > > > do > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on > the > > > > first > > > > > > > lap - > > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it.

Hell,

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> I > > > > don't > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's > > pointless > > > in > > > > a > > > > > > > race > > > > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race > that > > > > result > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > wall > > > > > > > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in > themselves > > > have > > > > > > > enough > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a > > proper > > > > > > > > "deterrent" > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned > > > off.....you > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several > > other > > > > > > > drivers, > > > > > > > > > too! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp > > > induced > > > > > or > > > > > > > > stupid > > > > > > > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large

portion

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> of > > > the > > > > > > field > > > > > > > > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are > > running > > > > for > > > > > > > "fun > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting > the > > > > race? > > > > > > > > That's > > > > > > > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my > > > opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. > We > > > are > > > > a > > > > > > > mixed > > > > > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world > drivers > > > who > > > > > run > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these

online

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> > > races, > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > though > > > > > > > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We > don't > > > run > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > damage, > > > > > > > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow"

on > > the > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a bigwreck

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> in > > > the > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. > > > Knocking > > > > > out > > > > > > > > half > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the > race, > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > remaining > > > > > > > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those > knocked > > > > out. > > > > > > > > That's > > > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically > (and > > > no > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > > complains > > > > > > > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group

outweigh

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> > the > > > > > > > temporary > > > > > > > > > > loss > > > > > > > > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, > > > anyway). > > > > > > And, > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a > > > > participant > > > > > > > > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the > NASCAR > > > race > > > > > > > > > > rules....and > > > > > > > > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last > 10 > > > > > minutes > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in > > place > > > > for > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to

ask > > any > > > > > > > questions > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these racesdon't

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> > have > > > > any > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. > > > > Amazing? > > > > > > > Not > > > > > > > > > > > really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just my two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom > > Pabst" > > > > > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > > > > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a

big

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> > > > "warp" > > > > > at > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not a silly question. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I > > > looked > > > > at > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > replay. > > > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I

couldn't

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> > see > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's > > supposed > > > to > > > > > > > provide > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you > > won't > > > > get > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > second > > > > > > > > > > > chance. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I > couldn't > > > do > > > > it > > > > > > > > > ANYWAY... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > > > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > > > > > > > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

jason moyer wrote:

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> > On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 21:32:06 GMT, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >And I thought the English was the masters of understatement > > "And I thought the English were the masters of understatement" > > Jason the subjunctive case Nazi

Hi Bruce, welcome back to the NG Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Tom Pabst" writes (to Eldred): >>> Why do you seem so "thin skinned" about this RASCAR stuff? I wonder?>>> I only have a cent and a half to offer here, and since I'm actually quite ignorant about the details of RASCAR and this discussion, it may not even be valid currency. I haven't had time to race with RASCAR, and haven't followed any of the discussions of it very much. But it sounds to me like Eldred has put in a fair amount of effort and time to help provide a service to quite a few sim racers. And in my personal experience (which is mostly in the area of youth sports), it's somewhat frustrating when you try design a program that provides the best experience for the most people, and then have to listen to one or two individuals (who probably haven't helped) run you down because it's all wrong. Here's a simple thought -- anytime you use a clearly negative word like "hypocrisy", it's going to be taken as an attack, no matter the context. And once you attack someone, to call them "thin-skinned" if they respond strongly seems a bit unrealistic (some would say childish). It reminds me of one of my favorite ee cummings lines, "There is some shit I will not eat".