FF Wheels - Truth or Fiction? - Please Help

Hi all, This is a bit of a long post but please bear with me - from recent posts I may not be the only one with this problem! I've been using a battered and oft-repaired Thrustmaster T2 for as long as I can remember. After the bungee snapped for the fit time I decided to get used to driving with no friction or centering at all. No problem and lap times didn't suffer. When the play in the column lately became so bad I need the full with of the straight to get from one end to the other, I decided perhaps a new wheel might be needed. I felt it had to have steel bearing and the only one in my price range was the Momo FF. I've also become intrigued with FF recently as many sim racers I respect (and fear) seem to value. So ..... 120 beer tokens later the red thing is sitting on my desk. Now comes the problem! The FF felt ludicrous straight from the off. Any resemblance between this and anything I'd ever driven before was purely coincidental! 'No problem' I thought - a search on he web turned up the Wingman site with some tips. They didn't work! A search of Usenet posts resulted in the same disappointment. Except for some realistic thumps when hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. every race), the feedback seems to consist of strange and counter-intuitive pulls and loosenings of the wheel combined with either a deadness or hunting around centre. Particularly bizarre is the reaction to hands-off gradual acceleration. Regardless of latency setting, this results in an increasingly manic oscillation and eventual reversal of front and rear wheels. I've become so disenchanted that I don't even like the feel of the inbuilt resistance without effects. The upshot is that I've got FF enabled in GPL, NR2002 and my private West RL beta but have all forces turned to zero in each game. This results in.... you guessed it - a wheel which feels like a T2 with a broken bungee! Now either the entire ras community id barking mad (not an entirely impossible hypothesis) or I am clueless as regards expectation, setup or both (a more likely hypothesis). I would really appreciate a complete idiot's guide to making this expensive T2 simulator provide helpful FF effects. My preferred driving style in GPL is about average, i.e. I find Alison's setups like a fridge on castors, I find Greger's like the same fridge but hinged in several places and I find Roland's just about right. I assume that if you made it this far you are either very bored with life or may in fact be able to help. Any tips would be much appreciated. I want to get this thing sorted before the BRD Race Frame and Speed 7 pedals arrive (gloat mode off). Regards

"Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah79ga$kv5$[email hidden]... > Hi all, > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with me - from recent posts I > may not be the only one with this problem! > > I've been using a battered and oft-repaired Thrustmaster T2 for as long asI > can remember. After the bungee snapped for the fit time I decided to get > used to driving with no friction or centering at all. No problem and lap > times didn't suffer. When the play in the column lately became so bad Ineed > the full with of the straight to get from one end to the other, I decided > perhaps a new wheel might be needed. I felt it had to have steel bearingand

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> the only one in my price range was the Momo FF. I've also become intrigued > with FF recently as many sim racers I respect (and fear) seem to value. So > ..... 120 beer tokens later the red thing is sitting on my desk. > > Now comes the problem! The FF felt ludicrous straight from the off. Any > resemblance between this and anything I'd ever driven before was purely > coincidental! 'No problem' I thought - a search on he web turned up the > Wingman site with some tips. They didn't work! A search of Usenet posts > resulted in the same disappointment. Except for some realistic thumps when > hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. every race), > the feedback seems to consist of strange and counter-intuitive pulls and > loosenings of the wheel combined with either a deadness or hunting around > centre. Particularly bizarre is the reaction to hands-off gradual > acceleration. Regardless of latency setting, this results in an

increasingly

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> manic oscillation and eventual reversal of front and rear wheels. > > I've become so disenchanted that I don't even like the feel of the inbuilt > resistance without effects. The upshot is that I've got FF enabled in GPL, > NR2002 and my private West RL beta but have all forces turned to zero in > each game. This results in.... you guessed it - a wheel which feels like a > T2 with a broken bungee! > > Now either the entire ras community id barking mad (not an entirely > impossible hypothesis) or I am clueless as regards expectation, setup or > both (a more likely hypothesis). I would really appreciate a complete > idiot's guide to making this expensive T2 simulator provide helpful FF > effects. My preferred driving style in GPL is about average, i.e. I find > Alison's setups like a fridge on castors, I find Greger's like the same > fridge but hinged in several places and I find Roland's just about right. > > I assume that if you made it this far you are either very bored with life

or

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> may in fact be able to help. Any tips would be much appreciated. I want to > get this thing sorted before the BRD Race Frame and Speed 7 pedals arrive > (gloat mode off). > > Regards > > >

woof! woof! dave henrie

"Neil Charlton" wrote... > Hi all, > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with > me - from recent posts I may not be the only one > with this problem! > <snip> I went and tried to drive the Brabham (short wheelbase car... most unstable one in GPL, IMO) up and down the main straight at Monza, using my MOMO FF wheel hands-off. First couple of tries were a bit of a miss as shifting gears (using the paddles) would unsettle the wheel, so I went to autoshifting. Conclusion: if you accellerate smoothly and progressively it will track straight with my settings. Jab at the throttle slightly when a suface uneveness has an effect on the wheel and you will start an oscillation. But like I said, if left alone and allowed to self-correct it will track straight. I have a replay of this "feat" (easily the most unimpressive thing I've ever done) if you don't believe me. Without knowing your settings, the way you drive or your setups I can't really tell what's wrong. What follows is some advise and the truth about FF as I see it. YMMV. You may have it set too strong. A force feedback wheel is like a stage amplifier. It turns a fairly weak signal (couple of mA from a D/A converter) into a force strong enough to make us think there's a car attached to the wheel (more on that later). Like a stage amplifier, if you turn it up too loud, the signal from the speaker may feed back into the guitar, or microphone you're using and begin to oscillate at a very unpleasant frequency. You may have a tendency, like a lot of non-FF users in my experience, to drive fairly "robotically" (no offence intended, just trying to describe what I see). I.e. brake for turn, crank on lock, feed on power and release lock, instead of going with the car, experiencing the grip conditions in the turn and "feeling" your way through. Without FF this is no problem as the car doesn't "fight back", but with FF this can lead to you subconciously being "rigid" at the wheel at first, which lessens the dampening effect your arms have on the course of the car. Since without FF you don't experience pull under braking due to uneven front tire (hot) presures or large camber splits, your setups may require a rethink when using FF. Also, I've seen setups up for download on the web featuring toe-out on the rear wheels, which also does nothing for straight line stability. Perhaps you need a higher steering ratio as well due to the increased "travel" of the MOMO vs the T2. As for the FF experience: no, it doesn't fysically feel "exactly the same" as a real car. Anyone who claims that is a liar, eventhough advancements are still being made (N2k2, F1 2k2) and I hope Papyrus/ISI/West Brothers will take it further. There are striking resemblances though and for the track environment I was actually quite amazed when I made the comparison. I used to think FF in GPL was exaggerated. Then I went and drove the Ring in my real car. Crashing down on the suspension at Pflantzgarten<sp?> at 75mph I had to really muscle the car into the turn. And my car features power steering, BTW. Anyhow, if it doesn't really feel real, why use it? -Simple, it doesn't have to. All that is required is that it's "near enough" and consistent. A certain feeling being relared to a certain behaviour is all it takes. After a (amazingly) short learning period, the brain (amazing piece of kit as well, that..) will translate automatically and make it believeble. In other words, it will feel real in the GPL context. Don't get me wrong: non-FF is faster, absolutely no doubt, but FF allows you to delegate part of keeping track of the car's attitude to the "motor" part of the brain, away from the visual/hearing part. Which is a real bonus in close quarters racing. Might be my imagination, but it appears to me non-FF drivers run out of spare mental capacity/situational awareness faster than FF users in a pressure situation. Anyhow, give the MOMO a shot. Adjust the settings; take a look at Slottweak's setup procedure, e.g. (http://www.slottweak.com/gplintro.htm). I don't agree with everything GTX has to say on the subject, but it might get you into the ballpark (I recommend 0.03 as a latency setting for the MOMO, BTW). Give yourself time to get used to it. It's a great tool, which, once mastered, will improve your consistency and enjoyment, IMO. Hope this helps, Jan. =---

>"Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote > and my private West RL beta Brown-nosing... <yawn> -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

When I set that little troll up as part of my question I never figured I'd catch one of the more experienced ras members with it. There's one born every minute ;-) Shame you had nothing constructive to add though. cya "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gPIZ8.9271$[email hidden]...

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> >"Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote > > and my private West RL beta > > Brown-nosing... <yawn> > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Thanks for the interesting post Jan - you seem to know exactly what I meant. I've had a look at the site you suggest and the guy does have some radical ideas. What do you think about is idea that torque=damping and vice-versa? I'll try his setups today. It may help if I work from the 'minimal effects' end of things so it doesn't come as too much of a shock. Thanks again for the help and cya Saturday at CocaCola. Regards "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:P0IZ8.15667$[email hidden]...

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> "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > Hi all, > > > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with > > me - from recent posts I may not be the only one > > with this problem! > > <snip> > > I went and tried to drive the Brabham (short wheelbase car... most

unstable

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> one in GPL, IMO) up and down the main straight at Monza, using my MOMO FF > wheel hands-off. First couple of tries were a bit of a miss as shifting > gears (using the paddles) would unsettle the wheel, so I went to > autoshifting. Conclusion: if you accellerate smoothly and progressively it > will track straight with my settings. Jab at the throttle slightly when a > suface uneveness has an effect on the wheel and you will start an > oscillation. But like I said, if left alone and allowed to self-correct it > will track straight. I have a replay of this "feat" (easily the most > unimpressive thing I've ever done) if you don't believe me. > > Without knowing your settings, the way you drive or your setups I can't > really tell what's wrong. What follows is some advise and the truth about

FF > as I see it. YMMV. > > You may have it set too strong. A force feedback wheel is like a stage > amplifier. It turns a fairly weak signal (couple of mA from a D/Aconverter)

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> into a force strong enough to make us think there's a car attached to the > wheel (more on that later). Like a stage amplifier, if you turn it up too > loud, the signal from the speaker may feed back into the guitar, or > microphone you're using and begin to oscillate at a very unpleasant > frequency. > > You may have a tendency, like a lot of non-FF users in my experience, to > drive fairly "robotically" (no offence intended, just trying to describe > what I see). I.e. brake for turn, crank on lock, feed on power and release > lock, instead of going with the car, experiencing the grip conditions in

the > turn and "feeling" your way through. Without FF this is no problem as the > car doesn't "fight back", but with FF this can lead to you subconciously > being "rigid" at the wheel at first, which lessens the dampening effectyour > arms have on the course of the car. > > Since without FF you don't experience pull under braking due to unevenfront > tire (hot) presures or large camber splits, your setups may require a > rethink when using FF. Also, I've seen setups up for download on the web > featuring toe-out on the rear wheels, which also does nothing for straight > line stability. Perhaps you need a higher steering ratio as well due tothe > increased "travel" of the MOMO vs the T2. > > As for the FF experience: no, it doesn't fysically feel "exactly the same" > as a real car. Anyone who claims that is a liar, eventhough advancementsare

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> still being made (N2k2, F1 2k2) and I hope Papyrus/ISI/West Brothers will > take it further. There are striking resemblances though and for the track > environment I was actually quite amazed when I made the comparison. I used > to think FF in GPL was exaggerated. Then I went and drove the Ring in my > real car. Crashing down on the suspension at Pflantzgarten<sp?> at 75mph I > had to really muscle the car into the turn. And my car features power > steering, BTW. > > Anyhow, if it doesn't really feel real, why use it? -Simple, it doesn't

have > to. All that is required is that it's "near enough" and consistent. A > certain feeling being relared to a certain behaviour is all it takes.After > a (amazingly) short learning period, the brain (amazing piece of kit as > well, that..) will translate automatically and make it believeble. Inother > words, it will feel real in the GPL context. Don't get me wrong: non-FF is > faster, absolutely no doubt, but FF allows you to delegate part of keeping > track of the car's attitude to the "motor" part of the brain, away fromthe

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> visual/hearing part. Which is a real bonus in close quarters racing. Might > be my imagination, but it appears to me non-FF drivers run out of spare > mental capacity/situational awareness faster than FF users in a pressure > situation. > > Anyhow, give the MOMO a shot. Adjust the settings; take a look at > Slottweak's setup procedure, e.g. (http://www.slottweak.com/gplintro.htm).

I > don't agree with everything GTX has to say on the subject, but it mightget

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> you into the ballpark (I recommend 0.03 as a latency setting for the MOMO, > BTW). Give yourself time to get used to it. It's a great tool, which, once > mastered, will improve your consistency and enjoyment, IMO. > > Hope this helps, > > Jan. > =--- > >

Sorry Jon, I was feeling pissed of with my wheel and therefore a little mischievous ;-) Having read just about all the posts on the West site I should know better than pull people's chains like that but I couldn't resist it. Obviously, I don't have such a beta nor does one exist. It is of course the trial demo version I have. Regards "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jwGZ8.59678$[email hidden]... > > "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ah79ga$kv5$[email hidden]... > > Hi all, > > > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with me - from recent postsI > > may not be the only one with this problem! > > > > I've been using a battered and oft-repaired Thrustmaster T2 for as longas > I > > can remember. After the bungee snapped for the fit time I decided to get > > used to driving with no friction or centering at all. No problem and lap > > times didn't suffer. When the play in the column lately became so bad I > need > > the full with of the straight to get from one end to the other, Idecided > > perhaps a new wheel might be needed. I felt it had to have steel bearing > and > > the only one in my price range was the Momo FF. I've also becomeintrigued > > with FF recently as many sim racers I respect (and fear) seem to value.So

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> > ..... 120 beer tokens later the red thing is sitting on my desk. > > > > Now comes the problem! The FF felt ludicrous straight from the off. Any > > resemblance between this and anything I'd ever driven before was purely > > coincidental! 'No problem' I thought - a search on he web turned up the > > Wingman site with some tips. They didn't work! A search of Usenet posts > > resulted in the same disappointment. Except for some realistic thumps

when > > hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. everyrace), > > the feedback seems to consist of strange and counter-intuitive pulls and > > loosenings of the wheel combined with either a deadness or huntingaround > > centre. Particularly bizarre is the reaction to hands-off gradual > > acceleration. Regardless of latency setting, this results in an > increasingly > > manic oscillation and eventual reversal of front and rear wheels. > > > > I've become so disenchanted that I don't even like the feel of theinbuilt > > resistance without effects. The upshot is that I've got FF enabled inGPL, > > NR2002 and my private West RL beta but have all forces turned to zero in > > each game. This results in.... you guessed it - a wheel which feels likea

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> > T2 with a broken bungee! > > > > Now either the entire ras community id barking mad (not an entirely > > impossible hypothesis) or I am clueless as regards expectation, setup or > > both (a more likely hypothesis). I would really appreciate a complete > > idiot's guide to making this expensive T2 simulator provide helpful FF > > effects. My preferred driving style in GPL is about average, i.e. I find > > Alison's setups like a fridge on castors, I find Greger's like the same > > fridge but hinged in several places and I find Roland's just about

right. > > > > I assume that if you made it this far you are either very bored withlife > or > > may in fact be able to help. Any tips would be much appreciated. I wantto > > get this thing sorted before the BRD Race Frame and Speed 7 pedalsarrive

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> > (gloat mode off). > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > >

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:47:06 +0000 (UTC), "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Except for some realistic thumps when >hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. every race), Hehe... I _do_ remember a certain Zandvoort race though.... <g> Remco

<whispers> Jan, You consistently have the most thoughtful, interesting, trenchant comments on GPL of anybody posting on r.a.s. --Steve <whisper off> "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:P0IZ8.15667$[email hidden]...

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> "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > Hi all, > > > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with > > me - from recent posts I may not be the only one > > with this problem! > > <snip> > > I went and tried to drive the Brabham (short wheelbase car... most

unstable

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> one in GPL, IMO) up and down the main straight at Monza, using my MOMO FF > wheel hands-off. First couple of tries were a bit of a miss as shifting > gears (using the paddles) would unsettle the wheel, so I went to > autoshifting. Conclusion: if you accellerate smoothly and progressively it > will track straight with my settings. Jab at the throttle slightly when a > suface uneveness has an effect on the wheel and you will start an > oscillation. But like I said, if left alone and allowed to self-correct it > will track straight. I have a replay of this "feat" (easily the most > unimpressive thing I've ever done) if you don't believe me. > > Without knowing your settings, the way you drive or your setups I can't > really tell what's wrong. What follows is some advise and the truth about

FF > as I see it. YMMV. > > You may have it set too strong. A force feedback wheel is like a stage > amplifier. It turns a fairly weak signal (couple of mA from a D/Aconverter)

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> into a force strong enough to make us think there's a car attached to the > wheel (more on that later). Like a stage amplifier, if you turn it up too > loud, the signal from the speaker may feed back into the guitar, or > microphone you're using and begin to oscillate at a very unpleasant > frequency. > > You may have a tendency, like a lot of non-FF users in my experience, to > drive fairly "robotically" (no offence intended, just trying to describe > what I see). I.e. brake for turn, crank on lock, feed on power and release > lock, instead of going with the car, experiencing the grip conditions in

the > turn and "feeling" your way through. Without FF this is no problem as the > car doesn't "fight back", but with FF this can lead to you subconciously > being "rigid" at the wheel at first, which lessens the dampening effectyour > arms have on the course of the car. > > Since without FF you don't experience pull under braking due to unevenfront > tire (hot) presures or large camber splits, your setups may require a > rethink when using FF. Also, I've seen setups up for download on the web > featuring toe-out on the rear wheels, which also does nothing for straight > line stability. Perhaps you need a higher steering ratio as well due tothe > increased "travel" of the MOMO vs the T2. > > As for the FF experience: no, it doesn't fysically feel "exactly the same" > as a real car. Anyone who claims that is a liar, eventhough advancementsare

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> still being made (N2k2, F1 2k2) and I hope Papyrus/ISI/West Brothers will > take it further. There are striking resemblances though and for the track > environment I was actually quite amazed when I made the comparison. I used > to think FF in GPL was exaggerated. Then I went and drove the Ring in my > real car. Crashing down on the suspension at Pflantzgarten<sp?> at 75mph I > had to really muscle the car into the turn. And my car features power > steering, BTW. > > Anyhow, if it doesn't really feel real, why use it? -Simple, it doesn't

have > to. All that is required is that it's "near enough" and consistent. A > certain feeling being relared to a certain behaviour is all it takes.After > a (amazingly) short learning period, the brain (amazing piece of kit as > well, that..) will translate automatically and make it believeble. Inother > words, it will feel real in the GPL context. Don't get me wrong: non-FF is > faster, absolutely no doubt, but FF allows you to delegate part of keeping > track of the car's attitude to the "motor" part of the brain, away fromthe

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> visual/hearing part. Which is a real bonus in close quarters racing. Might > be my imagination, but it appears to me non-FF drivers run out of spare > mental capacity/situational awareness faster than FF users in a pressure > situation. > > Anyhow, give the MOMO a shot. Adjust the settings; take a look at > Slottweak's setup procedure, e.g. (http://www.slottweak.com/gplintro.htm).

I > don't agree with everything GTX has to say on the subject, but it mightget

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> you into the ballpark (I recommend 0.03 as a latency setting for the MOMO, > BTW). Give yourself time to get used to it. It's a great tool, which, once > mastered, will improve your consistency and enjoyment, IMO. > > Hope this helps, > > Jan. > =--- > >

OTOH, GTX_SlotCar seems to have gone off the deep end (literally) with his damping and torque settings! "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:P0IZ8.15667$[email hidden]...

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> "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > Hi all, > > > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with > > me - from recent posts I may not be the only one > > with this problem! > > <snip> > > I went and tried to drive the Brabham (short wheelbase car... most

unstable

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> one in GPL, IMO) up and down the main straight at Monza, using my MOMO FF > wheel hands-off. First couple of tries were a bit of a miss as shifting > gears (using the paddles) would unsettle the wheel, so I went to > autoshifting. Conclusion: if you accellerate smoothly and progressively it > will track straight with my settings. Jab at the throttle slightly when a > suface uneveness has an effect on the wheel and you will start an > oscillation. But like I said, if left alone and allowed to self-correct it > will track straight. I have a replay of this "feat" (easily the most > unimpressive thing I've ever done) if you don't believe me. > > Without knowing your settings, the way you drive or your setups I can't > really tell what's wrong. What follows is some advise and the truth about

FF > as I see it. YMMV. > > You may have it set too strong. A force feedback wheel is like a stage > amplifier. It turns a fairly weak signal (couple of mA from a D/Aconverter)

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> into a force strong enough to make us think there's a car attached to the > wheel (more on that later). Like a stage amplifier, if you turn it up too > loud, the signal from the speaker may feed back into the guitar, or > microphone you're using and begin to oscillate at a very unpleasant > frequency. > > You may have a tendency, like a lot of non-FF users in my experience, to > drive fairly "robotically" (no offence intended, just trying to describe > what I see). I.e. brake for turn, crank on lock, feed on power and release > lock, instead of going with the car, experiencing the grip conditions in

the > turn and "feeling" your way through. Without FF this is no problem as the > car doesn't "fight back", but with FF this can lead to you subconciously > being "rigid" at the wheel at first, which lessens the dampening effectyour > arms have on the course of the car. > > Since without FF you don't experience pull under braking due to unevenfront > tire (hot) presures or large camber splits, your setups may require a > rethink when using FF. Also, I've seen setups up for download on the web > featuring toe-out on the rear wheels, which also does nothing for straight > line stability. Perhaps you need a higher steering ratio as well due tothe > increased "travel" of the MOMO vs the T2. > > As for the FF experience: no, it doesn't fysically feel "exactly the same" > as a real car. Anyone who claims that is a liar, eventhough advancementsare

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> still being made (N2k2, F1 2k2) and I hope Papyrus/ISI/West Brothers will > take it further. There are striking resemblances though and for the track > environment I was actually quite amazed when I made the comparison. I used > to think FF in GPL was exaggerated. Then I went and drove the Ring in my > real car. Crashing down on the suspension at Pflantzgarten<sp?> at 75mph I > had to really muscle the car into the turn. And my car features power > steering, BTW. > > Anyhow, if it doesn't really feel real, why use it? -Simple, it doesn't

have > to. All that is required is that it's "near enough" and consistent. A > certain feeling being relared to a certain behaviour is all it takes.After > a (amazingly) short learning period, the brain (amazing piece of kit as > well, that..) will translate automatically and make it believeble. Inother > words, it will feel real in the GPL context. Don't get me wrong: non-FF is > faster, absolutely no doubt, but FF allows you to delegate part of keeping > track of the car's attitude to the "motor" part of the brain, away fromthe

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> visual/hearing part. Which is a real bonus in close quarters racing. Might > be my imagination, but it appears to me non-FF drivers run out of spare > mental capacity/situational awareness faster than FF users in a pressure > situation. > > Anyhow, give the MOMO a shot. Adjust the settings; take a look at > Slottweak's setup procedure, e.g. (http://www.slottweak.com/gplintro.htm).

I > don't agree with everything GTX has to say on the subject, but it mightget

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> you into the ballpark (I recommend 0.03 as a latency setting for the MOMO, > BTW). Give yourself time to get used to it. It's a great tool, which, once > mastered, will improve your consistency and enjoyment, IMO. > > Hope this helps, > > Jan. > =--- > >

Hehe, Only kidding though. There's very few I trust going 2 abreast in turns in GPL but you're one of them :) BTW, stop hanging around the West web site and get back in that Brabham! Could well be the next MoG season would be in WRL (dreaming perhaps). cya "Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:47:06 +0000 (UTC), "Neil Charlton" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Except for some realistic thumps when > >hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. every race), > > > Hehe... > > I _do_ remember a certain Zandvoort race though.... <g> > > > Remco >

"Neil Charlton" wrote... > Thanks for the interesting post Jan - you seem to know exactly > what I meant. I've had a look at the site you suggest and the guy > does have some radical ideas. What do you think about is idea > that torque=damping and vice-versa? I think it's an overgeneralisation on his part. His method for arriving at settings (starting hands-off from full lock etc..) works for me when translated to using "accepted" settings, which is why I suggested the site (and to not to have to reproduce that here). However, a higher damping setting, except from tightening the wheel up, will also make knocks from stationary objects (kerbs, bumps in grass, armco...) more pronounced, in my experience. So there is a gray area for sure. > I'll try his setups today. It may help if I work from the 'minimal > effects' end of things so it doesn't come as too much of a shock. That's indeed the way to go, from my point of view. > Thanks again for the help and cya Saturday at CocaCola. You're welcome... I'm not comfortable about racing there at the moment, but I will make an appearance in chat for sure. Jan. =---

lol. I like your style. "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah8mpr$2us$[email hidden]... > Sorry Jon, > > I was feeling pissed of with my wheel and therefore a little mischievous;-)

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> Having read just about all the posts on the West site I should know better > than pull people's chains like that but I couldn't resist it. Obviously, I > don't have such a beta nor does one exist. It is of course the trial demo > version I have. > > Regards > > "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:jwGZ8.59678$[email hidden]... > > > > "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ah79ga$kv5$[email hidden]... > > > Hi all, > > > > > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with me - from recent

posts > I > > > may not be the only one with this problem! > > > > > > I've been using a battered and oft-repaired Thrustmaster T2 for aslong > as > > I > > > can remember. After the bungee snapped for the fit time I decided toget > > > used to driving with no friction or centering at all. No problem andlap > > > times didn't suffer. When the play in the column lately became so badI > > need > > > the full with of the straight to get from one end to the other, I > decided > > > perhaps a new wheel might be needed. I felt it had to have steelbearing > > and > > > the only one in my price range was the Momo FF. I've also become > intrigued > > > with FF recently as many sim racers I respect (and fear) seem tovalue. > So > > > ..... 120 beer tokens later the red thing is sitting on my desk. > > > > > > Now comes the problem! The FF felt ludicrous straight from the off.Any > > > resemblance between this and anything I'd ever driven before waspurely > > > coincidental! 'No problem' I thought - a search on he web turned upthe > > > Wingman site with some tips. They didn't work! A search of Usenetposts > > > resulted in the same disappointment. Except for some realistic thumps > when > > > hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. every > race), > > > the feedback seems to consist of strange and counter-intuitive pullsand

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> > > loosenings of the wheel combined with either a deadness or hunting > around > > > centre. Particularly bizarre is the reaction to hands-off gradual > > > acceleration. Regardless of latency setting, this results in an > > increasingly > > > manic oscillation and eventual reversal of front and rear wheels. > > > > > > I've become so disenchanted that I don't even like the feel of the > inbuilt > > > resistance without effects. The upshot is that I've got FF enabled in > GPL, > > > NR2002 and my private West RL beta but have all forces turned to zero

in > > > each game. This results in.... you guessed it - a wheel which feelslike > a > > > T2 with a broken bungee! > > > > > > Now either the entire ras community id barking mad (not an entirely > > > impossible hypothesis) or I am clueless as regards expectation, setupor > > > both (a more likely hypothesis). I would really appreciate a complete > > > idiot's guide to making this expensive T2 simulator provide helpful FF > > > effects. My preferred driving style in GPL is about average, i.e. Ifind > > > Alison's setups like a fridge on castors, I find Greger's like thesame

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> > > fridge but hinged in several places and I find Roland's just about > right. > > > > > > I assume that if you made it this far you are either very bored with > life > > or > > > may in fact be able to help. Any tips would be much appreciated. I

want

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> to > > > get this thing sorted before the BRD Race Frame and Speed 7 pedals > arrive > > > (gloat mode off). > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>"Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote > Shame you had nothing constructive to add though. It was just the tone of your post. I didn't like it, so that's the why of my one-liner <G> -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

FF sux. I had exact same experience with trying to go from a venerable T2 to a logitech red. Having to hang onto the wheel with both hands for dear life is not fun to me. I'll keep fixing my T2 as long as it will hold together. rms [email hidden]

"Roger Squires" wrote... > FF sux. I had exact same experience with trying to go > from a venerable T2 to a logitech red. Having to hang > onto the wheel with both hands for dear life is not fun > to me. I'll keep fixing my T2 as long as it will hold > together. Oh please... T2's were pretty good for their day, but to hold on to one in this day and age is really behind the times. Near the end of it's usefull life I was spending more time mending the damn thing than actually driving. Went FF and never looked back. If it's too hard to control turn the bloody strenght down... it this some sort of macho thing? -No one in an online race can tell you're limp wristing it, you know. ;-)) Jan. =--- "It's for the fun." - Gilles Panizzi

Wrong-o. FF takes some getting used to, but once you get it right, you can feel it at the rim...or rather you feel *less* than you do when you haven't gotten it right. If you're having to hang on for dear life, you're doing something wrong. "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Vy_Z8.608$X%[email hidden]...

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> FF sux. I had exact same experience with trying to go from a venerable T2 > to a logitech red. Having to hang onto the wheel with both hands for dear > life is not fun to me. I'll keep fixing my T2 as long as it will hold > together. > > rms > [email hidden] > > >

Try this. Set your Overall Device Gain to 60 or 70, never use Spring Gain, and try 40 for Damper Gain. I don't have a MOMO, but the TM Ferrari is gear driven and should be fairly similar assuming Logitech hasn't changed to a stupid, big motor. In Core.ini, initially, try a damping setting of 60 and torque setting of 325. Give it a try and email me. I'll try to help you through a setup that gives a smooth feel with some meaningful feedback. That will result in your best lap times. When I set up a new wheel, the first thing I do is get rid of the oscillation. For SIMPLICITY when setting up a wheel, think of the damping in core.ini as overall ff strength. Strictly speaking, it's not, but it behaves as though it is. Think of torque as damping. Again, it's not, but it behaves as though it is and this WILL help you set up your wheel. Set the damping at some low number. Zero is too low so I usually start at about 30. You just want to pick a number that won't add that notchy feeling to your wheel, and, when setting the torque to eliminate oscillation, it doesn't really matter what this is set at. Once the oscillation is eliminated, it will stay eliminated regardless of your damping setting (how strong you set the force). Now, set your steering torque at about 200 and give it a test drive. The first thing you want to do is be able to take your hands off the wheel while blasting down a straight. That should be fairly easy to do. If you can't, set the torque higher, to 250 or 300 and give it a try. Eventually you want to end up with a wheel that will not oscillate, even with a slight nudge (just enough to see it move on the screen), but will oscillate if you give it a stronger nudge. On my TM Ferrari, this is set at 325. On my other wheels, that use belts or cables, it's quite different. Once you have the torque set properly, the rest is pretty easy (and very subjective). Start raising the damping value until you get the feeling you like. Eventually the wheel will either get too hard to turn, or it starts feeling notchy. I wouldn't make is so strong that you have to fight the corners or it pulls too hard when you brush the curbs. My best lap times always come with a fairly light feel to the wheel. A higher value in the damping setting means more electricity will go to the ff motor. The notchy feeling is caused by the motor's armature stacks passing by the magnets. If you feel the wheel is too light and doesn't center as much as you'd like, but higher damping values cause notchiness, you can add some Default Spring in the controller panel. As long as you don't go overboard, it won't hurt your useful feedback. One signal is simply added to the other. It doesn't cancel it out (though it may feel that way if you add too much). I really hope some of this helps. -- Slot Tweaks & Reviews www.slottweak.com "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah79ga$kv5$[email hidden]... > Hi all, > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with me - from recent posts I > may not be the only one with this problem! > > I've been using a battered and oft-repaired Thrustmaster T2 for as long as I > can remember. After the bungee snapped for the fit time I decided to get > used to driving with no friction or centering at all. No problem and lap > times didn't suffer. When the play in the column lately became so bad I need > the full with of the straight to get from one end to the other, I decided > perhaps a new wheel might be needed. I felt it had to have steel bearing and > the only one in my price range was the Momo FF. I've also become intrigued > with FF recently as many sim racers I respect (and fear) seem to value. So > ..... 120 beer tokens later the red thing is sitting on my desk. > > Now comes the problem! The FF felt ludicrous straight from the off. Any > resemblance between this and anything I'd ever driven before was purely > coincidental! 'No problem' I thought - a search on he web turned up the > Wingman site with some tips. They didn't work! A search of Usenet posts > resulted in the same disappointment. Except for some realistic thumps when > hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. every race), > the feedback seems to consist of strange and counter-intuitive pulls and > loosenings of the wheel combined with either a deadness or hunting around > centre. Particularly bizarre is the reaction to hands-off gradual > acceleration. Regardless of latency setting, this results in an increasingly > manic oscillation and eventual reversal of front and rear wheels. > > I've become so disenchanted that I don't even like the feel of the inbuilt > resistance without effects. The upshot is that I've got FF enabled in GPL, > NR2002 and my private West RL beta but have all forces turned to zero in > each game. This results in.... you guessed it - a wheel which feels like a > T2 with a broken bungee! > > Now either the entire ras community id barking mad (not an entirely > impossible hypothesis) or I am clueless as regards expectation, setup or > both (a more likely hypothesis). I would really appreciate a complete > idiot's guide to making this expensive T2 simulator provide helpful FF > effects. My preferred driving style in GPL is about average, i.e. I find > Alison's setups like a fridge on castors, I find Greger's like the same > fridge but hinged in several places and I find Roland's just about right. > > I assume that if you made it this far you are either very bored with life or > may in fact be able to help. Any tips would be much appreciated. I want to > get this thing sorted before the BRD Race Frame and Speed 7 pedals arrive > (gloat mode off). > > Regards > > >

I was just about to get to that..... -- "Boy! You've got to have really big attachments to try a pass there... and make it." - David Hobbs mark "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah79ga$kv5$[email hidden]... > Hi all, > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with me - from recent posts I > may not be the only one with this problem! <snip>

Thanks for the feedback (pun), I really appreciate it. I've got some time off now so I 'll give your ideas a go and email as you offered. I'm not going to give up on this one ;-) Thanks again "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:igo_8.5261$[email hidden]... > Try this. Set your Overall Device Gain to 60 or 70, never use Spring Gain, > and try 40 for Damper Gain. > I don't have a MOMO, but the TM Ferrari is gear driven and should befairly > similar assuming Logitech hasn't changed to a stupid, big motor. > In Core.ini, initially, try a damping setting of 60 and torque setting of > 325. Give it a try and email me. I'll try to help you through a setup that > gives a smooth feel with some meaningful feedback. That will result inyour > best lap times. >[snip]

Progress report ;-) Many thanks to all that responded and particular thanks to Bo, Jan and especially Slot. I have achieved the impossible and got FF working to my liking in GPL. Slot's methodology is definitely he way to go - those silly buggers at Papy have most definitely got torque and damping confused in some obscure way. Using Slot's guide I have managed settings which have no strange oscillations, no spikes near centre, good thump off walls, gentle feedback on grass and tightening/loosening on spins. For those with similar problems, I ended up with: Wingman: all at zero except strength - 100% GPL: damping 2500, torque 750, latency 10ms, (wheel linearity 85%) However, I've now come across another problem. Buoyed by my GPL success, I reckoned it would be simple to replicate this 'feel' in NR2002. No chance! The two biggest problems are a very notchy force effect (e.g. turning the wheel whilst stationary feels like gears are slipping as the tension slips up and down - very jerky) and a ludicrous degree of oscillation. The damping and latency sliders appear to have little effect on either of these symptoms. I can replicate my preferred level of force by setting the force slider to 25% (yeah, I know, I'm a weakling) but there seems to be no combination of sliders which will get rid of either the jerkiness or oscillations. Any ideas, suggestions much appreciated :) Thanks again to all "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ah79ga$kv5$[email hidden]... > Hi all, > > This is a bit of a long post but please bear with me - from recent posts I > may not be the only one with this problem! > > I've been using a battered and oft-repaired Thrustmaster T2 for as long asI > can remember. After the bungee snapped for the fit time I decided to get > used to driving with no friction or centering at all. No problem and lap > times didn't suffer. When the play in the column lately became so bad Ineed > the full with of the straight to get from one end to the other, I decided > perhaps a new wheel might be needed. I felt it had to have steel bearingand

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> the only one in my price range was the Momo FF. I've also become intrigued > with FF recently as many sim racers I respect (and fear) seem to value. So > ..... 120 beer tokens later the red thing is sitting on my desk. > > Now comes the problem! The FF felt ludicrous straight from the off. Any > resemblance between this and anything I'd ever driven before was purely > coincidental! 'No problem' I thought - a search on he web turned up the > Wingman site with some tips. They didn't work! A search of Usenet posts > resulted in the same disappointment. Except for some realistic thumps when > hitting the walls trying to avoid one of Remco's spins (i.e. every race), > the feedback seems to consist of strange and counter-intuitive pulls and > loosenings of the wheel combined with either a deadness or hunting around > centre. Particularly bizarre is the reaction to hands-off gradual > acceleration. Regardless of latency setting, this results in an

increasingly

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> manic oscillation and eventual reversal of front and rear wheels. > > I've become so disenchanted that I don't even like the feel of the inbuilt > resistance without effects. The upshot is that I've got FF enabled in GPL, > NR2002 and my private West RL beta but have all forces turned to zero in > each game. This results in.... you guessed it - a wheel which feels like a > T2 with a broken bungee! > > Now either the entire ras community id barking mad (not an entirely > impossible hypothesis) or I am clueless as regards expectation, setup or > both (a more likely hypothesis). I would really appreciate a complete > idiot's guide to making this expensive T2 simulator provide helpful FF > effects. My preferred driving style in GPL is about average, i.e. I find > Alison's setups like a fridge on castors, I find Greger's like the same > fridge but hinged in several places and I find Roland's just about right. > > I assume that if you made it this far you are either very bored with life

or

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> may in fact be able to help. Any tips would be much appreciated. I want to > get this thing sorted before the BRD Race Frame and Speed 7 pedals arrive > (gloat mode off). > > Regards > > >

"Neil Charlton" wrote...

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> <snip> > However, I've now come across another problem. Buoyed > by my GPL success, I reckoned it would be simple to > replicate this 'feel' in NR2002. No chance! The two > biggest problems are a very notchy force effect (e.g. > turning the wheel whilst stationary feels like gears > are slipping as the tension slips up and down - very > jerky) and a ludicrous degree of oscillation.

Part of this is settings part of this is the nature of the beast. Due to camber and castor setting steering will "tip over" slightly when turned from side to side while stationary. > The damping and latency sliders appear to have little > effect on either of these symptoms. I can replicate my > preferred level of force by setting the force slider > to 25% (yeah, I know, I'm a weakling) The amount of force feedback felt is highly dependant on the steering ratio in the setup. > but there seems to be no combination of sliders which > will get rid of either the jerkiness or oscillations. > Any ideas, suggestions much appreciated :) I've found the MOMO responds better to a latency setting in the 30ms range. You can also try turning down the linearity setting a bit (no lower than 80% tho'). Jan. =---

Roger Squires wrote: > > FF sux. I had exact same experience with trying to go from a venerable T2 > to a logitech red. Having to hang onto the wheel with both hands for dear > life is not fun to me. I'll keep fixing my T2 as long as it will hold > together. Another chocolate wristed office boy who cannot handle a little bit of ff!

Thx Jan - I'll give that a try (never surrender). cya "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DLY_8.23503$[email hidden]...

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> "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > <snip> > > However, I've now come across another problem. Buoyed > > by my GPL success, I reckoned it would be simple to > > replicate this 'feel' in NR2002. No chance! The two > > biggest problems are a very notchy force effect (e.g. > > turning the wheel whilst stationary feels like gears > > are slipping as the tension slips up and down - very > > jerky) and a ludicrous degree of oscillation. > > Part of this is settings part of this is the nature of the beast. Due to > camber and castor setting steering will "tip over" slightly when turned

from

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> side to side while stationary. > > > The damping and latency sliders appear to have little > > effect on either of these symptoms. I can replicate my > > preferred level of force by setting the force slider > > to 25% (yeah, I know, I'm a weakling) > > The amount of force feedback felt is highly dependant on the steering

ratio

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> in the setup. > > > but there seems to be no combination of sliders which > > will get rid of either the jerkiness or oscillations. > > Any ideas, suggestions much appreciated :) > > I've found the MOMO responds better to a latency setting in the 30ms

range. > You can also try turning down the linearity setting a bit (no lower than80% > tho'). > > Jan. > =--- > >