I HATE Sears Point

I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! I do SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or is it me? (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. **** "Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 miles per second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't that just the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap (quote approximate)

If you are also having similar problems at Watkins Glen.....then its either your driving skills or your equipment (controller). If not....then its Sears Point....its a tough track. In a Cup car......you have very little margin of error.....slightly out of the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly too much gas.....you are probably going off course. Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....but don't try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down. Use either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as the default....and don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."This place will frustrate you for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get it figured out and then its a really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." Good luck...... Tom PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you this is my "home race track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to work there about 4 days a week. I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chute part of the backcourse section.....being used today. "TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! Ido > SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or is itme? > (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. > > > **** > "Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 miles per > second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't thatjust > the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap(quote > approximate) > >

I think the physics for road races are way off. The cars are way to squirrly. The game is more suited towards ovals. Did you happen to see Boris Said q today? He had drove this piss out of it! It's too bad he wasn't in a better car\team.

That's bs...this track is screwed up, from a grip factor standpoint. On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:52:02 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>If you are also having similar problems at Watkins Glen.....then its either >your driving skills or your equipment (controller). If not....then its >Sears Point....its a tough track. > >In a Cup car......you have very little margin of error.....slightly out of >the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly too much gas.....you are >probably going off course. Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....but don't >try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down. Use >either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as the default....and >don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of >practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."This place will frustrate you >for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get it figured out and then its a >really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." > >Good luck...... > >Tom > >PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you this is my "home race >track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to work there about 4 days a week. >I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chute part of the backcourse >section.....being used today. > >"TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! I >do >> SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or is it >me? >> (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. >> >> >> **** >> "Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 miles per >> second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't that >just >> the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap >(quote >> approximate) >> >> > >

Tim Wortman North American Simulation Series www.nasscar.com

If we were running open setups, I'd sure as heck back off the ratio's a notch or two to get the rpms down a bit. I think that would help a LOT. -Larry "TimW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That's bs...this track is screwed up, from a grip factor standpoint. > > On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:52:02 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >If you are also having similar problems at Watkins Glen.....then itseither > >your driving skills or your equipment (controller). If not....then its > >Sears Point....its a tough track. > > > >In a Cup car......you have very little margin of error.....slightly outof > >the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly too much gas.....youare > >probably going off course. Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....butdon't > >try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down.Use > >either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as thedefault....and

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> >don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of > >practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."This place will frustrate you > >for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get it figured out and then its a > >really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." > > > >Good luck...... > > > >Tom > > > >PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you this is my "home race > >track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to work there about 4 days a

week. > >I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chute part of the backcourse > >section.....being used today. > > > >"TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod!I > >do > >> SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or isit > >me? > >> (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. > >> > >> > >> **** > >> "Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 milesper

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> >> second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't that > >just > >> the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap > >(quote > >> approximate) > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Tim Wortman > North American Simulation Series > www.nasscar.com

I can't comment on the "grip factor"....are there some absolutes....that can be used as comparisons? I don't think so. What I can comment is how the N2K2 Cup car feels compared to a real race car.....similar but not exact as a WC car (a GTA car).....and in my opinion, the N2K2 grip is correct. Cup cars have a very small tire patch compared to their weight and horsepower. Sears has very few flat surfaces in either braking or accelerating zones....and the track surface is NOT grippy...its old and tired (that will be changed after this year's WC race....since the track surface will be entirely new for next year). Additionally, there's plenty of sim drivers that can turn 117's on the N2K2 Sears (albeit...not an easy accomplishment) and that's in line with today's qualifying runs. Additionally, I should add that the under-powered (but lower weight) SW Tour Featherlite cars can run 1-2 seconds a lap faster than the Cup cars......partly because of their positraction rears allowed...too! I also think they run a wider tire...but I'm not certain of that without checking. When the ALMS cars are here....they all bitch about the slippery track surface. Yet, Alan McNish two years ago was blistering fast.....beating the old track record held by Geoff Brabham in a Nissan GTP car a few years back...by more than two seconds! But at the same time.....his teammates driving the same car couldn't run within 2 or 3 seconds of Alan on the same weekend. Sears is a track suited for some drivers....but not suited for most. I'm in the "not suited" category and have always been slow there.....it frustrates the heck out of me (even sim racing...I'm dog slow at Sears...and I have a bazillion laps there....my home track). Whereas, I'd go up to Portland and just show up with a "so-so" car and be top five right out of the box...usually on the pole when the day was over........against the same guys with the same equipment. Its the nature of racing, I guess? I'm not trying to be "argumentative" on the grip factor thing.....but I don't think it is a science....I think its more of a subjective adjustment the Papy physics guys use to adjust the AI performance to match real-world......and that makes it more voodoo and mirrors...rather than an objective tool. And, its going to be a long while before any of us human sim drivers can match the continuity and consistency of the AI....IHMO. So...Papy puts an AI adjustment slider in there.......and calls it good! Its not perfect....but it works....IMHO. Tom "TimW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That's bs...this track is screwed up, from a grip factor standpoint. > > On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:52:02 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >If you are also having similar problems at Watkins Glen.....then itseither > >your driving skills or your equipment (controller). If not....then its > >Sears Point....its a tough track. > > > >In a Cup car......you have very little margin of error.....slightly outof > >the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly too much gas.....youare > >probably going off course. Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....butdon't > >try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down.Use > >either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as thedefault....and

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> >don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of > >practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."This place will frustrate you > >for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get it figured out and then its a > >really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." > > > >Good luck...... > > > >Tom > > > >PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you this is my "home race > >track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to work there about 4 days a

week. > >I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chute part of the backcourse > >section.....being used today. > > > >"TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod!I > >do > >> SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or isit > >me? > >> (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. > >> > >> > >> **** > >> "Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 milesper

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> >> second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't that > >just > >> the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap > >(quote > >> approximate) > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Tim Wortman > North American Simulation Series > www.nasscar.com

I didn't know you helped design the chute section. But I have one question. Why did they add this part to the track? I liked seeing the cars run downhill and on to the dragstip leading up to turn 7. Tom Pabst wrote:

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> I can't comment on the "grip factor"....are there some absolutes....that can > be used as comparisons? I don't think so. > > What I can comment is how the N2K2 Cup car feels compared to a real race > car.....similar but not exact as a WC car (a GTA car).....and in my opinion, > the N2K2 grip is correct. Cup cars have a very small tire patch compared to > their weight and horsepower. Sears has very few flat surfaces in either > braking or accelerating zones....and the track surface is NOT grippy...its > old and tired (that will be changed after this year's WC race....since the > track surface will be entirely new for next year). Additionally, there's > plenty of sim drivers that can turn 117's on the N2K2 Sears (albeit...not an > easy accomplishment) and that's in line with today's qualifying runs. > Additionally, I should add that the under-powered (but lower weight) SW Tour > Featherlite cars can run 1-2 seconds a lap faster than the Cup > cars......partly because of their positraction rears allowed...too! I also > think they run a wider tire...but I'm not certain of that without checking. > > When the ALMS cars are here....they all bitch about the slippery track > surface. Yet, Alan McNish two years ago was blistering fast.....beating the > old track record held by Geoff Brabham in a Nissan GTP car a few years > back...by more than two seconds! But at the same time.....his teammates > driving the same car couldn't run within 2 or 3 seconds of Alan on the same > weekend. Sears is a track suited for some drivers....but not suited for > most. I'm in the "not suited" category and have always been slow > there.....it frustrates the heck out of me (even sim racing...I'm dog slow > at Sears...and I have a bazillion laps there....my home track). Whereas, > I'd go up to Portland and just show up with a "so-so" car and be top five > right out of the box...usually on the pole when the day was > over........against the same guys with the same equipment. Its the nature > of racing, I guess? > > I'm not trying to be "argumentative" on the grip factor thing.....but I > don't think it is a science....I think its more of a subjective adjustment > the Papy physics guys use to adjust the AI performance to match > real-world......and that makes it more voodoo and mirrors...rather than an > objective tool. And, its going to be a long while before any of us human > sim drivers can match the continuity and consistency of the AI....IHMO. > So...Papy puts an AI adjustment slider in there.......and calls it good! > Its not perfect....but it works....IMHO. > > Tom > > > > > "TimW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>That's bs...this track is screwed up, from a grip factor standpoint. >> >>On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:52:02 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> >>wrote: >> >> >>>If you are also having similar problems at Watkins Glen.....then its >>> > either > >>>your driving skills or your equipment (controller). If not....then its >>>Sears Point....its a tough track. >>> >>>In a Cup car......you have very little margin of error.....slightly out >>> > of > >>>the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly too much gas.....you >>> > are > >>>probably going off course. Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....but >>> > don't > >>>try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down. >>> > Use > >>>either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as the >>> > default....and > >>>don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of >>>practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."This place will frustrate you >>>for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get it figured out and then its a >>>really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." >>> >>>Good luck...... >>> >>>Tom >>> >>>PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you this is my "home race >>>track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to work there about 4 days a >>> > week. > >>>I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chute part of the backcourse >>>section.....being used today. >>> >>>"TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>news:[email hidden]... >>> >>>>I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! >>>> > I > >>>do >>> >>>>SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or is >>>> > it > >>>me? >>> >>>>(It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. >>>> >>>> >>>>**** >>>>"Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 miles >>>> > per > >>>>second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't that >>>> >>>just >>> >>>>the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap >>>> >>>(quote >>> >>>>approximate) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> Tim Wortman >> North American Simulation Series >> www.nasscar.com >> > >

If you are gonna race the rascar race this sat, looks like I'll be running with you. If I run. Been practicing all week, but I still can't get under1:30 more than 3 or 4 laps without spinning off the track. Believe I would need about a month of practice for this track. "TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! Ido > SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or is itme? > (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. > > > **** > "Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 miles per > second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't thatjust > the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap(quote > approximate) > >

Brad... I didn't "help design" the original WC Chute section of the track. That was done by the track architect's and engineers.....a few years back. That part of the track was changed without any "testing" of the variable configurations that the lay of the land could have allowed. There's a whole "history" on this at the Sears site....and elsewhere (try the SCCA SFO Region pages too). What I helped with was after the track made the original WC Chute....and proved over the course of three or four years after....that it did not function as intended (mostly because the Cup drivers bitched about it....frankly).....when the track management got tired of throwing "fixes" into the project at a million bucks a pop......they turned to us for some help (quite by accident, I might add). We simulated that section of the track in several configs.....let about two dozen Cup drivers run it in our sims.....and essentially "vote" for the one they liked and thought "worked" best. ESPN has about a 10 minute interview on tape....with Jeff Gordon...discussing all this along with running on our sims. I haven't seen it in a while...but it does exist. I too was interviewed at the same filming...but the tape was never aired....to my knowledge. The WC Chute being run today (and last year)....is essentially the winner of their voting. There's really a lot more to the story....but that's the "Reader's Digest" version of it. I, you.....and just about everyone who ever raced at Sears (and the majority of the Cup drivers) didn't want to see the WC Chute even built in the first place. But.....the reasons for its construction were good....just not very good for the drivers who run the track. Basically......it was a "fan viewing" issue...and the fact that the "sportscar layout".....or "Carousel layout"...(both are terms used for the old Sears track config).......didn't fit into the SMI long-term plans for the viewing improvements that are in place for this weekend's race. This original track config still exists (altered slightly from the traditional one....but essentially the same).....and is used for every other racing event at Sears...EXCEPT....the WC race. It was a dollars-and-cents.....reason...pure and simple. Hope that helps with some partial answers to your question? Tom "Brad Larocque" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I didn't know you helped design the chute section. But I have one > question. Why did they add this part to the track? I liked seeing the > cars run downhill and on to the dragstip leading up to turn 7. > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > I can't comment on the "grip factor"....are there some absolutes....that

can > > be used as comparisons? I don't think so. > > > > What I can comment is how the N2K2 Cup car feels compared to a real race > > car.....similar but not exact as a WC car (a GTA car).....and in myopinion, > > the N2K2 grip is correct. Cup cars have a very small tire patchcompared to > > their weight and horsepower. Sears has very few flat surfaces in either > > braking or accelerating zones....and the track surface is NOTgrippy...its > > old and tired (that will be changed after this year's WC race....sincethe > > track surface will be entirely new for next year). Additionally,there's > > plenty of sim drivers that can turn 117's on the N2K2 Sears(albeit...not an > > easy accomplishment) and that's in line with today's qualifying runs. > > Additionally, I should add that the under-powered (but lower weight) SWTour > > Featherlite cars can run 1-2 seconds a lap faster than the Cup > > cars......partly because of their positraction rears allowed...too! Ialso > > think they run a wider tire...but I'm not certain of that withoutchecking. > > > > When the ALMS cars are here....they all bitch about the slippery track > > surface. Yet, Alan McNish two years ago was blistering fast.....beatingthe > > old track record held by Geoff Brabham in a Nissan GTP car a few years > > back...by more than two seconds! But at the same time.....his teammates > > driving the same car couldn't run within 2 or 3 seconds of Alan on thesame > > weekend. Sears is a track suited for some drivers....but not suited for > > most. I'm in the "not suited" category and have always been slow > > there.....it frustrates the heck out of me (even sim racing...I'm dogslow > > at Sears...and I have a bazillion laps there....my home track).Whereas, > > I'd go up to Portland and just show up with a "so-so" car and be topfive > > right out of the box...usually on the pole when the day was > > over........against the same guys with the same equipment. Its thenature > > of racing, I guess? > > > > I'm not trying to be "argumentative" on the grip factor thing.....but I > > don't think it is a science....I think its more of a subjectiveadjustment > > the Papy physics guys use to adjust the AI performance to match > > real-world......and that makes it more voodoo and mirrors...rather thanan > > objective tool. And, its going to be a long while before any of ushuman

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> > sim drivers can match the continuity and consistency of the AI....IHMO. > > So...Papy puts an AI adjustment slider in there.......and calls it good! > > Its not perfect....but it works....IMHO. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > "TimW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > >>That's bs...this track is screwed up, from a grip factor standpoint. > >> > >>On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:52:02 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > >>wrote: > >> > >> > >>>If you are also having similar problems at Watkins Glen.....then its > >>> > > either > > > >>>your driving skills or your equipment (controller). If not....then its > >>>Sears Point....its a tough track. > >>> > >>>In a Cup car......you have very little margin of error.....slightly out > >>> > > of > > > >>>the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly too much gas.....you > >>> > > are > > > >>>probably going off course. Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....but > >>> > > don't > > > >>>try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down. > >>> > > Use > > > >>>either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as the > >>> > > default....and > > > >>>don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of > >>>practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."This place will frustrate

you > >>>for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get it figured out and then itsa

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> >>>really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." > >>> > >>>Good luck...... > >>> > >>>Tom > >>> > >>>PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you this is my "home race > >>>track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to work there about 4 days a > >>> > > week. > > > >>>I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chute part of the

backcourse

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> >>>section.....being used today. > >>> > >>>"TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >>>news:[email hidden]... > >>> > >>>>I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! > >>>> > > I > > > >>>do > >>> > >>>>SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or

is

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> >>>> > > it > > > >>>me? > >>> > >>>>(It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>**** > >>>>"Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 miles > >>>> > > per > > > >>>>second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't

that

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> >>>> > >>>just > >>> > >>>>the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap > >>>> > >>>(quote > >>> > >>>>approximate) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> Tim Wortman > >> North American Simulation Series > >> www.nasscar.com > >> > > > > >

Papy physics are not trying to 'simulate a simulation', like some other sims do. Dave Kaemmer uses scientifically accepted physics formulae and facts. He really tries to calculate a model of the real world (i.e. of real world physics). That's why his physics work everywhere, on ovals and elsewhere - because they're based on real science. If you mentioned Boris Said's q run in order to say that N2002's physics are off because its cars can't be taken around Sears Point in a similar manner, maybe have a look at this page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/joachim_trensz/ where you'll among others find this zip file: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/joachim_trensz/zips/at_sears_onprc. zip No bragging intended, I'm just tyring to show that Sears laps can look quite realistic in N2002. Achim "DJR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:y3SQ8.42298$[email hidden]... > I think the physics for road races are way off. The cars are way to > squirrly. The game is more suited towards ovals. Did you happen to seeBoris > Said q today? He had drove this piss out of it! It's too bad he wasn't ina > better car\team. > >

Well said Tom. Papy's Nascars may not be entirely accurate in terms that they feel perfectly like a real Nascar, but they are a good approximation, given the hardware we have, and the money we spend on the software. The simulate real cars quite well, that is something I can tell. And they aren't that far off when it comes to simulating that specific car class (Nascars) either, that's what you can tell. All in all, no reason to blame it on the physics if you keep falling off ;-) While I'm at it, I like this new layout of the track better than the old one. Very fun to drive. Achim "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4XSQ8.129787$[email hidden]... > I can't comment on the "grip factor"....are there some absolutes....thatcan > be used as comparisons? I don't think so. > > What I can comment is how the N2K2 Cup car feels compared to a real race > car.....similar but not exact as a WC car (a GTA car).....and in myopinion, > the N2K2 grip is correct. Cup cars have a very small tire patch comparedto > their weight and horsepower. Sears has very few flat surfaces in either > braking or accelerating zones....and the track surface is NOT grippy...its > old and tired (that will be changed after this year's WC race....since the > track surface will be entirely new for next year). Additionally, there's > plenty of sim drivers that can turn 117's on the N2K2 Sears (albeit...notan > easy accomplishment) and that's in line with today's qualifying runs. > Additionally, I should add that the under-powered (but lower weight) SWTour > Featherlite cars can run 1-2 seconds a lap faster than the Cup > cars......partly because of their positraction rears allowed...too! Ialso > think they run a wider tire...but I'm not certain of that withoutchecking. > > When the ALMS cars are here....they all bitch about the slippery track > surface. Yet, Alan McNish two years ago was blistering fast.....beatingthe > old track record held by Geoff Brabham in a Nissan GTP car a few years > back...by more than two seconds! But at the same time.....his teammates > driving the same car couldn't run within 2 or 3 seconds of Alan on thesame

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> weekend. Sears is a track suited for some drivers....but not suited for > most. I'm in the "not suited" category and have always been slow > there.....it frustrates the heck out of me (even sim racing...I'm dog slow > at Sears...and I have a bazillion laps there....my home track). Whereas, > I'd go up to Portland and just show up with a "so-so" car and be top five > right out of the box...usually on the pole when the day was > over........against the same guys with the same equipment. Its the nature > of racing, I guess? > > I'm not trying to be "argumentative" on the grip factor thing.....but I > don't think it is a science....I think its more of a subjective adjustment > the Papy physics guys use to adjust the AI performance to match > real-world......and that makes it more voodoo and mirrors...rather than an > objective tool. And, its going to be a long while before any of us human > sim drivers can match the continuity and consistency of the AI....IHMO. > So...Papy puts an AI adjustment slider in there.......and calls it good! > Its not perfect....but it works....IMHO. > > Tom > > > > > "TimW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > That's bs...this track is screwed up, from a grip factor standpoint. > > > > On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:52:02 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >If you are also having similar problems at Watkins Glen.....then its > either > > >your driving skills or your equipment (controller). If not....then its > > >Sears Point....its a tough track. > > > > > >In a Cup car......you have very little margin of error.....slightly out > of > > >the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly too much gas.....you > are > > >probably going off course. Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....but > don't > > >try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down. > Use > > >either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as the > default....and > > >don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of > > >practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."This place will frustrate

you > > >for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get it figured out and then itsa

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> > >really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." > > > > > >Good luck...... > > > > > >Tom > > > > > >PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you this is my "home race > > >track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to work there about 4 days a > week. > > >I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chute part of the

backcourse

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> > >section.....being used today. > > > > > >"TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:[email hidden]... > > >> I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! > I > > >do > > >> SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or

is

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> it > > >me? > > >> (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. > > >> > > >> > > >> **** > > >> "Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500

miles > per > > >> second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain'tthat

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> > >just > > >> the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap > > >(quote > > >> approximate) > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim Wortman > > North American Simulation Series > > www.nasscar.com > >

DJR wrote: > > I think the physics for road races are way off. The cars are way to > squirrly. The game is more suited towards ovals. Did you happen to see Boris > Said q today? He had drove this piss out of it! It's too bad he wasn't in a > better car\team. Have to disagree here, personally I find the physics to be pretty damn good on the road courses, the default setups on the other hand....... Just make sure you don't overdrive the car, the tires go off very fast if you do and from then on you're in trouble, and if you have a problem with the rear end breaking loose on you and you can't seem to modulate the throttle properly, try taking the corner in a higher gear, T1 at Watkins in 2nd gear for example If you set the car up for it properly, these cars can be hustled around with power slides and stuff, very entertaining, not very fast and very hard on the tires :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! I do > SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or is it me? > (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. I can guarantee you that the physics are more realistic in NR2K2 than in SCGT, so it's either you (or possibly your hardware). Here's how I learned to drive Sears Point and Watkins Glen: 1) Use either the chase driving view or the roof driving view. It really helps to be able to see down the track. 2) Learn your shift-up, shift-down, and braking points. If you don't know where these are, you're not going to be able to keep the car on the track. 3) Learn proper use of the accelerator. You can't just stab the gas and hope for the best. 4) You have to be able to know what your car is going to do in traffic, and how to adjust your brake/shift/accel points to compensate for side- by-side racing (yes, side-by-side racing does happen at Sears Point). 5) At no point can you over-drive a turn and expect to come out of it without leaving the track. 6) DO NOT abuse your tires. If they get hot on you, you will lose a certain amount of grip and this will most definitely affect your performance in terms of lap times AND ability to control the car. If you do heat them up pretty badly by sliding through a turn, you'll have to slow your pace a bit (maybe half a lap) to let them cool off enough to resume your normal pace. I am not the best at tire management, but I can go about 30 laps with the <fast> setup at Sears Point before needing to stop for tires (all four will be red at that point). Sears Point is easy as long as you don't drive beyond your abilities (as determined by your setup). -- ========================================================= DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

It helps a lot. Thanks Tom. I guess it also explains why NASCAR doesnt run the boot at Watkins Glen (another crime in my opinion). Tom Pabst wrote:

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> Brad... > > I didn't "help design" the original WC Chute section of the track. That was > done by the track architect's and engineers.....a few years back. That part > of the track was changed without any "testing" of the variable > configurations that the lay of the land could have allowed. There's a whole > "history" on this at the Sears site....and elsewhere (try the SCCA SFO > Region pages too). What I helped with was after the track made the original > WC Chute....and proved over the course of three or four years after....that > it did not function as intended (mostly because the Cup drivers bitched > about it....frankly).....when the track management got tired of throwing > "fixes" into the project at a million bucks a pop......they turned to us for > some help (quite by accident, I might add). We simulated that section of > the track in several configs.....let about two dozen Cup drivers run it in > our sims.....and essentially "vote" for the one they liked and thought > "worked" best. ESPN has about a 10 minute interview on tape....with Jeff > Gordon...discussing all this along with running on our sims. I haven't seen > it in a while...but it does exist. I too was interviewed at the same > filming...but the tape was never aired....to my knowledge. The WC Chute > being run today (and last year)....is essentially the winner of their > voting. There's really a lot more to the story....but that's the "Reader's > Digest" version of it. > > I, you.....and just about everyone who ever raced at Sears (and the majority > of the Cup drivers) didn't want to see the WC Chute even built in the first > place. But.....the reasons for its construction were good....just not very > good for the drivers who run the track. Basically......it was a "fan > viewing" issue...and the fact that the "sportscar layout".....or "Carousel > layout"...(both are terms used for the old Sears track config).......didn't > fit into the SMI long-term plans for the viewing improvements that are in > place for this weekend's race. This original track config still exists > (altered slightly from the traditional one....but essentially the > same).....and is used for every other racing event at Sears...EXCEPT....the > WC race. It was a dollars-and-cents.....reason...pure and simple. > > Hope that helps with some partial answers to your question? > > Tom > > > > "Brad Larocque" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>I didn't know you helped design the chute section. But I have one >>question. Why did they add this part to the track? I liked seeing the >>cars run downhill and on to the dragstip leading up to turn 7. >> >>Tom Pabst wrote: >> >> >>>I can't comment on the "grip factor"....are there some absolutes....that >>> > can > >>>be used as comparisons? I don't think so. >>> >>>What I can comment is how the N2K2 Cup car feels compared to a real race >>>car.....similar but not exact as a WC car (a GTA car).....and in my >>> > opinion, > >>>the N2K2 grip is correct. Cup cars have a very small tire patch >>> > compared to > >>>their weight and horsepower. Sears has very few flat surfaces in either >>>braking or accelerating zones....and the track surface is NOT >>> > grippy...its > >>>old and tired (that will be changed after this year's WC race....since >>> > the > >>>track surface will be entirely new for next year). Additionally, >>> > there's > >>>plenty of sim drivers that can turn 117's on the N2K2 Sears >>> > (albeit...not an > >>>easy accomplishment) and that's in line with today's qualifying runs. >>>Additionally, I should add that the under-powered (but lower weight) SW >>> > Tour > >>>Featherlite cars can run 1-2 seconds a lap faster than the Cup >>>cars......partly because of their positraction rears allowed...too! I >>> > also > >>>think they run a wider tire...but I'm not certain of that without >>> > checking. > >>>When the ALMS cars are here....they all bitch about the slippery track >>>surface. Yet, Alan McNish two years ago was blistering fast.....beating >>> > the > >>>old track record held by Geoff Brabham in a Nissan GTP car a few years >>>back...by more than two seconds! But at the same time.....his teammates >>>driving the same car couldn't run within 2 or 3 seconds of Alan on the >>> > same > >>>weekend. Sears is a track suited for some drivers....but not suited for >>>most. I'm in the "not suited" category and have always been slow >>>there.....it frustrates the heck out of me (even sim racing...I'm dog >>> > slow > >>>at Sears...and I have a bazillion laps there....my home track). >>> > Whereas, > >>>I'd go up to Portland and just show up with a "so-so" car and be top >>> > five > >>>right out of the box...usually on the pole when the day was >>>over........against the same guys with the same equipment. Its the >>> > nature > >>>of racing, I guess? >>> >>>I'm not trying to be "argumentative" on the grip factor thing.....but I >>>don't think it is a science....I think its more of a subjective >>> > adjustment > >>>the Papy physics guys use to adjust the AI performance to match >>>real-world......and that makes it more voodoo and mirrors...rather than >>> > an > >>>objective tool. And, its going to be a long while before any of us >>> > human > >>>sim drivers can match the continuity and consistency of the AI....IHMO. >>>So...Papy puts an AI adjustment slider in there.......and calls it good! >>>Its not perfect....but it works....IMHO. >>> >>>Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>"TimW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>news:[email hidden]... >>> >>> >>>>That's bs...this track is screwed up, from a grip factor standpoint. >>>> >>>>On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:52:02 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>If you are also having similar problems at Watkins Glen.....then its >>>>> >>>>> >>>either >>> >>> >>>>>your driving skills or your equipment (controller). If not....then its >>>>>Sears Point....its a tough track. >>>>> >>>>>In a Cup car......you have very little margin of error.....slightly out >>>>> >>>>> >>>of >>> >>> >>>>>the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly too much gas.....you >>>>> >>>>> >>>are >>> >>> >>>>>probably going off course. Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....but >>>>> >>>>> >>>don't >>> >>> >>>>>try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down. >>>>> >>>>> >>>Use >>> >>> >>>>>either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as the >>>>> >>>>> >>>default....and >>> >>> >>>>>don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of >>>>>practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."This place will frustrate >>>>> > you > >>>>>for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get it figured out and then its >>>>> > a > >>>>>really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." >>>>> >>>>>Good luck...... >>>>> >>>>>Tom >>>>> >>>>>PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you this is my "home race >>>>>track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to work there about 4 days a >>>>> >>>>> >>>week. >>> >>> >>>>>I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chute part of the >>>>> > backcourse > >>>>>section.....being used today. >>>>> >>>>>"TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>>>news:[email hidden]... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>I >>> >>> >>>>>do >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or >>>>>> > is > >>>it >>> >>> >>>>>me? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>(It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>**** >>>>>>"Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 miles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>per >>> >>> >>>>>>second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't >>>>>> > that > >>>>>just >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>(quote >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>approximate) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> Tim Wortman >>>> North American Simulation Series >>>> www.nasscar.com >>>> >>>> >>> > >

In article <mDRQ8.282417$cQ3.14428@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....but don't >try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down. Use >either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as the default....and >don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of >practicing. First 50 hours?!? Who the f... has that kind of time to practice on ONE TRACK...? Sigh... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I was not a fan of SearsPoint back in the N3 days... I didn't really start running this track until N4 and when I got a wheel.. The method I use for learning a road course is driving around it in 2nd gear and learning each turn one at a time.. Getting the Turn In/Apex/Track Out points right.. then getting the gearing correct. One turn at a time is the best method for me... putter around in 2nd then approach a turn at moderate speeds,,, then drop to 2nd putter around,, hit that same turn again at moderate speeds.. Once I get this turn down,, then I pick another,, then another.. Once complete I put the puzzle together,, then start tweaking the Turn In/Apex/Track Out points,, then work on speed.. Getting out of the turns fast... etc.. I'm sure like most,, I find the helocam helpful during replays to make sure I'm hitting the turns right and using all the track when exiting and entering a turn... Hey try this,, run the GT Mod V3.0 for a week then come back to Cup cars,, you won't complain about grip anymore more,, lol PS: SCGT is a blast I remember running that sim a ton back in the day.. thsoe cars are much more nimble then Cup cars... for it always takes a while to adjust to the differences.. On 22 Jun 2002 02:24:45 GMT, [email hidden] (TlgtrProd) wrote:

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>I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can't keep it in the raod! I do >SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of the cars off a little or is it me? >(It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. > > >**** >"Here we are on a planet moving and spinning though space at 500 miles per >second...and look...my beer stays right there in the glass! Ain't that just >the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Lee interviewed by Dick Schaap (quote >approximate) > >

Whoa, Achim. My jaw just dropped. Right now I'm in the process of learning the new layout in conjunction with still fighting with the new tire model on the road courses(I'm proud to have my times at the Glen down to 1:18 and 1:24 at SP) but, geeze. I don't think I could do laps like that after 10,000 practice sessions. Jason "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<af0uuh$ao1ln$[email hidden]>...

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> Papy physics are not trying to 'simulate a simulation', like some other sims > do. Dave Kaemmer uses scientifically accepted physics formulae and facts. He > really tries to calculate a model of the real world (i.e. of real world > physics). That's why his physics work everywhere, on ovals and elsewhere - > because they're based on real science. > > If you mentioned Boris Said's q run in order to say that N2002's physics are > off because its cars can't be taken around Sears Point in a similar manner, > maybe have a look at this page: > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/joachim_trensz/ > > where you'll among others find this zip file: > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/joachim_trensz/zips/at_sears_onprc. > zip > > No bragging intended, I'm just tyring to show that Sears laps can look quite > realistic in N2002. > > Achim > > > > "DJR" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:y3SQ8.42298$[email hidden]... > > I think the physics for road races are way off. The cars are way to > > squirrly. The game is more suited towards ovals. Did you happen to see > Boris > > Said q today? He had drove this piss out of it! It's too bad he wasn't in > a > > better car\team. > > > >

Hi Jason, thanks for the kind words. The pure lap speed really isn't such a big thing, it comes mainly from practice and experience. The real challenge is winning races, and there, pure laptimes alone aren't worth that much :-) Achim "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Whoa, Achim. > > My jaw just dropped. Right now I'm in the process of learning the new > layout in conjunction with still fighting with the new tire model on > the road courses(I'm proud to have my times at the Glen down to 1:18 > and 1:24 at SP) but, geeze. I don't think I could do laps like that > after 10,000 practice sessions. > > Jason > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<af0uuh$ao1ln$[email hidden]>... > > Papy physics are not trying to 'simulate a simulation', like some othersims > > do. Dave Kaemmer uses scientifically accepted physics formulae andfacts. He > > really tries to calculate a model of the real world (i.e. of real world > > physics). That's why his physics work everywhere, on ovals andelsewhere - > > because they're based on real science. > > > > If you mentioned Boris Said's q run in order to say that N2002's physicsare > > off because its cars can't be taken around Sears Point in a similarmanner,

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> > maybe have a look at this page: > > > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/joachim_trensz/ > > > > where you'll among others find this zip file: > > > >

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/joachim_trensz/zips/at_sears_onprc. > > zip > > > > No bragging intended, I'm just tyring to show that Sears laps can lookquite > > realistic in N2002. > > > > Achim

actually I have the opposite problem I love sears point and the watkins in fact it is the only 2 tracks I play since I could not stay awake in the ovals :-)) the key is not power power power but judicous application of brake and accel MOst important is the setup too get it wrong and there is nothing you can do "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mDRQ8.282417$cQ3.14428@sccrnsc01... > If you are also having similar problems at WatkinsGlen.....then its either > your driving skills or your equipment (controller).If not....then its > Sears Point....its a tough track. > > In a Cup car......you have very little margin oferror.....slightly out of > the line, slightly too much brake.....or slightly toomuch gas.....you are > probably going off course. Study the "drivinglesson" in N2K2.....but don't > try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until youhave the line down. Use > either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comesas the default....and > don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50hours or so of > practicing. Like DW says in the lesson...."Thisplace will frustrate you > for awhile....but stay at it and you'll get itfigured out and then its a

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> really fun place to race at (paraphrased)." > > Good luck...... > > Tom > > PS: Since I don't know you.....I should tell you

this is my "home race > track"....and for the last 4 months, I go to workthere about 4 days a week. > I also helped design the current Winston Cup Chutepart of the backcourse > section.....being used today. > > "TlgtrProd" <[email hidden]> wrote inmessage > news:[email hidden]... > > I have been trying Sears Point in NR2K and can'tkeep it in the raod! I > do > > SCGT and seem to do OK? Are the physics of thecars off a little or is it > me? > > (It COULD be me..).. I do OK on the ovals. > > > > > > **** > > "Here we are on a planet moving and spinning thoughspace at 500 miles per > > second...and look...my beer stays right there inthe glass! Ain't that > just > > the neatest thing?" - Bill 'Spaceman' Leeinterviewed by Dick Schaap > (quote > > approximate) > > > > > >

Yeah...its a problem....but that's why not many online racers are any good at Sears. You can't be at Achim's level without many, many hours of seat time. Don't have it.....don't race there, then (online, that is). TP "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <mDRQ8.282417$cQ3.14428@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >Study the "driving lesson" in N2K2.....but don't > >try to do more than 88mph laps (or so)....until you have the line down.Use > >either the "fast" or "intermediate" setup that comes as thedefault....and

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> >don't screw with the setup for at least the first 50 hours or so of > >practicing. > > First 50 hours?!? Who the f... has that kind of time to practice on ONE > TRACK...? > Sigh... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 04:21:20 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I can't comment on the "grip factor"....are there some absolutes....that can >be used as comparisons? I don't think so. Maybe not absolutes....but here's food for thought Tom. I watched the race today (of course), and enjoyed watching the in-car footwork of Mark Martin at one point during the telecast. I watched as he came off T11 and mashed the gas, all the way to the lift point entering T1 (except for gear blips). So I went and downloaded Achim's replay of the 93mph lap here. I noticed he's able to do the same thing. I watched his replay very closely, and he almost never feathered the throttle. It was either on the gas 100%, or on the brake. If I try and duplicate this feat, my car is breaking the rear tires loose, even after using moderate acceleration, and if I stay in the gas, the car is sideways crossing the s/f line in 4th gear and losing traction. Now I've tried to get the point across that you're not talking to someone who doesn't know how to drive a road course, or an inexperienced user of NR2002 in general. Drivers in my league will tell you that I'm one of the best at getting around the road courses, and for that matter, have no problems at WG in NR2002. I've tried the defaults, I've tried Achime's, and I've tried various other open setups here ar Sears. None will provide the traction that will come remotely close to mimicking what we saw on the race today. There are others who feel the same as I do about the grip levels here. And since I have no problems with WG, I find it hard to believe that this is a hardware issue. But there has to be a logical answer. Is it a general consensus that faster computers provide higher levels of grip in NR2002? I'd really like to solve this, because I'm seriously frustrated. Tim Wortman North American Simulation Series www.nasscar.com

"TimW" wrote...

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> <snip> > Maybe not absolutes....but here's food for thought > Tom. > > I watched the race today (of course), and enjoyed > watching the in-car footwork of Mark Martin at one > point during the telecast. <snip> > > Is it a general consensus that faster computers > provide higher levels of grip in NR2002? I'd > really like to solve this, because I'm seriously > frustrated.

I wouldn't know, but I can keep it mashed on a good lap there too and I'm not even nearly on par with Achim as far as ability (at Sears and elsewhere) goes. I use an Athlon XP2000+. One needs to hit the right exit point and keep a good line, but it's do-able. Lot harder with the defaults than with my own setup though. Jan. =---

In article <0TsR8.302022$cQ3.16093@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >Yeah...its a problem....but that's why not many online racers are any good >at Sears. You can't be at Achim's level without many, many hours of seat >time. Don't have it.....don't race there, then (online, that is). Well, Sears just magnifies the difference between the skill levels more. I can run at other tracks(even online) and at *least* be able to stay out of the way... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <0TsR8.302022$cQ3.16093@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > writes: > > >Yeah...its a problem....but that's why not many online racers are any good > >at Sears. You can't be at Achim's level without many, many hours of seat > >time. Don't have it.....don't race there, then (online, that is). > > Well, Sears just magnifies the difference between the skill levels more. I can > run at other tracks(even online) and at *least* be able to stay out of the > way...

I seriously doubt guys like Achim needs 50 hours at any given track to get up to speed, that's for the rest of us, us mortals :-), I know I need a lot of laps to get down to competitive times, the guy who taught me most of what I know about sim racing, Stuart Brown, doesn't need anywhere near as many laps as I do to be competitive, and he races a lot of different sims too Oh, and Sears sucks in NR2002, no matter what Achim says :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Goy... You must mean "you suck" at Sears in N2K2? So do I.............but I don't blame the track or the sim. Tom "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > EldredP wrote: > > > > In article <0TsR8.302022$cQ3.16093@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > > writes: > > > > >Yeah...its a problem....but that's why not many online racers are anygood > > >at Sears. You can't be at Achim's level without many, many hours ofseat > > >time. Don't have it.....don't race there, then (online, that is). > > > > Well, Sears just magnifies the difference between the skill levels more.I can > > run at other tracks(even online) and at *least* be able to stay out ofthe

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> > way... > > I seriously doubt guys like Achim needs 50 hours at any given track to > get up to speed, that's for the rest of us, us mortals :-), I know I > need a lot of laps to get down to competitive times, the guy who taught > me most of what I know about sim racing, Stuart Brown, doesn't need > anywhere near as many laps as I do to be competitive, and he races a lot > of different sims too > > Oh, and Sears sucks in NR2002, no matter what Achim says :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx--

Tom Pabst wrote: > > Goy... > > You must mean "you suck" at Sears in N2K2? > > So do I.............but I don't blame the track or the sim. Actually Tom, I know that sooner or later I'll be able to produce somewhat competitive times at Sears if I just put in the seat time, but quite frankly I'm having a hard time motivating myself to do so What was once a really great track is in my opinion not suited for these Nascar floats, and quite frankly I can't see the current layout being very good in any car, but I'll leave that up to those that know the track better than I do, and if you say it's a lot of fun in real life, I'll take your word for it, but for NR2002.....no thx, I'd rather race at Monaco :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Goy... Yes...."frustrating" is a word often used with drivers who work at Sears every day (like most of the Russell School instructors). The tack is actually getting better with all the new work being done by SMI. I think after the entire surface is re-paved over this winter.....it will really come to life. And perhaps in N2003(?), Papy will do it correctly and we'll have a good one for NASCAR racing too. I think if you watched any of the Sears WC race yesterday......you can see that even the top of the world pros can be taken completely apart by Sears Point Raceway....the "favorites" in WC were barely even running.....none were contending....at the race's end. Parker Johnstone is considered maybe the best driver ever at Sears Point. He worked as an instructor there....spanning both the Bob Bondurant years and Russell years. He has literally thousands of hours on the track and many sportscar, TransAm, GTP and even Indycar testing hours there. He's mostly retired from racing now....but does do some coaching...and some TV commentating now and then. I am paraphrasing something Parker said one time while TV commentating for a TransAm race at Sears: "I have thousands of hours at this track in nearly every kind of race car ever made......and I've never done a perfect lap here. I think its impossible. I'm at the end of my racing career now......and if I could go back and do it all over again....I would only change one thing: I'd not waste my time trying desperately to concur this track! I firmly believe it can't be done." I think that pretty much says it all.......regarding Sears Point. Tom "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > Goy... > > > > You must mean "you suck" at Sears in N2K2? > > > > So do I.............but I don't blame the track or the sim. > > Actually Tom, I know that sooner or later I'll be able to produce > somewhat competitive times at Sears if I just put in the seat time, but > quite frankly I'm having a hard time motivating myself to do so > > What was once a really great track is in my opinion not suited for these > Nascar floats, and quite frankly I can't see the current layout being > very good in any car, but I'll leave that up to those that know the > track better than I do, and if you say it's a lot of fun in real life, > I'll take your word for it, but for NR2002.....no thx, I'd rather race > at Monaco :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx--

I think it's simply a matter of having the Race Car settled, and in the proper attitude to accept the full-throttle accelleration. I would be willing to bet that he wasn't hitting that pedal until the car was straight, true and pointed exactly where he wanted it so there would be no need for steering input during the hard accelleration. Any sort of steering input, or instability in the car, when you mash the gas unloads the weight from the rear tires, and thus they spin. That's my theory, and I"m sticking with it :) -Larry "TimW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 04:21:20 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I can't comment on the "grip factor"....are there some absolutes....thatcan

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> >be used as comparisons? I don't think so. > > Maybe not absolutes....but here's food for thought Tom. > > I watched the race today (of course), and enjoyed watching the in-car > footwork of Mark Martin at one point during the telecast. I watched as > he came off T11 and mashed the gas, all the way to the lift point > entering T1 (except for gear blips). > > So I went and downloaded Achim's replay of the 93mph lap here. I > noticed he's able to do the same thing. I watched his replay very > closely, and he almost never feathered the throttle. It was either on > the gas 100%, or on the brake. > > If I try and duplicate this feat, my car is breaking the rear tires > loose, even after using moderate acceleration, and if I stay in the > gas, the car is sideways crossing the s/f line in 4th gear and losing > traction. > > Now I've tried to get the point across that you're not talking to > someone who doesn't know how to drive a road course, or an > inexperienced user of NR2002 in general. Drivers in my league will > tell you that I'm one of the best at getting around the road courses, > and for that matter, have no problems at WG in NR2002. > > I've tried the defaults, I've tried Achime's, and I've tried various > other open setups here ar Sears. None will provide the traction that > will come remotely close to mimicking what we saw on the race today. > > There are others who feel the same as I do about the grip levels here. > And since I have no problems with WG, I find it hard to believe that > this is a hardware issue. But there has to be a logical answer. > > Is it a general consensus that faster computers provide higher levels > of grip in NR2002? I'd really like to solve this, because I'm > seriously frustrated. > > > Tim Wortman > North American Simulation Series > www.nasscar.com

Yeah, I was dying to take a pound out of each RR during that race :) -Larry "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DIBR8.48979$[email hidden]...

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> "TimW" wrote... > > <snip> > > Maybe not absolutes....but here's food for thought > > Tom. > > > > I watched the race today (of course), and enjoyed > > watching the in-car footwork of Mark Martin at one > > point during the telecast. <snip> > > > > Is it a general consensus that faster computers > > provide higher levels of grip in NR2002? I'd > > really like to solve this, because I'm seriously > > frustrated. > > I wouldn't know, but I can keep it mashed on a good lap there too and I'm > not even nearly on par with Achim as far as ability (at Sears and

elsewhere)

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> goes. I use an Athlon XP2000+. > > One needs to hit the right exit point and keep a good line, but it's > do-able. Lot harder with the defaults than with my own setup though. > > Jan. > =--- > >

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:54:30 GMT, "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I think it's simply a matter of having the Race Car settled, and in the >proper attitude to accept the full-throttle accelleration. > >I would be willing to bet that he wasn't hitting that pedal until the car >was straight, true and pointed exactly where he wanted it so there would be >no need for steering input during the hard accelleration. > >Any sort of steering input, or instability in the car, when you mash the gas >unloads the weight from the rear tires, and thus they spin. > >That's my theory, and I"m sticking with it :)

Link to the replay is in this thread.....see for yourself. Tim Wortman North American Simulation Series www.nasscar.com