***Reposted from the "6/10 Rule" post below to start a new thread***
********************************
Gavel...
I like that approach you are taking here.....but here's something you might
consider that would alter your thinking just a bit:
Let's take two brains.....call them "Brain-A" and "Brain-B"..........by
using the term "brain"....I'm talking about the entire mechanism of all
senses...and the processing of them by the brain....including the "learning"
process.
Now.....let's define their racing experience as follows:
"Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at
the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ
(Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150.
"Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony
Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars is quite
wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It has
an RIQ also of 150.
Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the
same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of
producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well).
Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain"
comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever
driven on?
I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others.
Tom
PS: Think I'll post this again as a new post/thread....so we can see the
comments from everyone separately.
Sim novice or real racer: who gets quick first?
Tom Pabst posed a thought experiment comparing a smart person who had never raced or used a sim with a real driver like Tony Stewart, asking who would reach full speed in a sim first. Some argued the real driver's car sense would win if the sim were realistic, while others said real drivers must unlearn real-world caution and sensory cues, which explains why they are often slow in sims. Participants shared anecdotes, including a console-raised teenager who took to GPL quickly, and Doug Milliken recalled 1960s F1 drivers racing slot cars.
Automated summary.
> "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at
> the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ
> (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150.
What exactly is an RIQ and how can one have one without doing any R'ing of
any sort whatsover?
It's like saying
"I have a JIQ (japaneese intelligence quotient) of ten billion - but I've
never spoken a word of japanesse. How well can I order food in a japanesse
nosh-shop."
Doug
I would like to lead off the input and discussion on this by postulating
reasons for the following observation of these two brains performing on the
sim.
Logic would probably tell us that "Brain-B" should come up to full race
speed before "Brain-A"......but let's say that it does not. Let's say the
opposite actually happens in this little experiment. Let's say
"Brain-A"....wins the "up to speed sooner" competition. Would that
necessarily indicate that the simulator was not good at simulating racing?
Or....was their some other dynamic at play that we are not thinking about?
I would postulate that its possible that "Brain-A" wins this
competition....and that the "simulator" used **does** do a good job of
simulating a race car.......because "Brain-B" had to spend a lot of time
unlearning some of the inputs it was used to getting from a real race
car....before it could learn how to run the simulated race car
fast....properly interpreting those inputs....which were good....but 4 of
them were missing and even the good ones were only 95% as good as a real
race car environment. Is this not one possible answer to what would be
observed as an illogical outcome of this competition?
Now...we are only talking above about "driving a race car fast"......let's
take this competition one step further.
Let's let "Brain-B" catch up to "Brain-A"......now they are both equally
fast in the simulator. Now.....the next competition is: "Which brain will
start winning actual races in the sim....before the other?"
I think it would be logical to conclude that "Brain-B"....now having
acquired the same skills as "Brain-A" in driving a race car fast....having
overcome initially the **handicap** of all that real race car driving
experience.......will win this competition hands down. Why? Because it has
all the "race craft" experience that Brain-A lacks.....and "Brain-B" wins
this "winning races" competition - hands down....every single time! Its a
"no brainer".....lol......
If this little *experiment* above....is actually true in
real-life.......then this accounts quite reasonably for why we "observe" the
situation of real-world drivers apparently being "slower" than sim
drivers.....over all. What we are doing.....in that case....is taking an
unfair sampling. We are taking a snapshot of the situation ....at one point
in time....where the "real world driver" is simply lacking enough seat time
in the sim.....to be up to speed and equal with his sim-racing-only
experienced opponent. Then....blaming a bad simulator for that observation.
I suggest this is what's really going on in the real world. If I am right
about this....then as time moves forward.....and more real-world drivers
participate in sim racing......the "difference" in performance between the
two groups will narrow...eventually disappear altogether.
Only time will tell........and that's kind of what we are doing here at
Pabst-Racing. We are "Bridging the Gap, between real-world racing and sim
racing." - as it says on our website.
Regards,
Tom
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dq7f8.12734$bs1.272284@sccrnsc01...
> ***Reposted from the "6/10 Rule" post below to start a new thread***
>
> ********************************
> Gavel...
>
> I like that approach you are taking here.....but here's something youmight
> consider that would alter your thinking just a bit:
>
> Let's take two brains.....call them "Brain-A" and "Brain-B"..........by
> using the term "brain"....I'm talking about the entire mechanism of all
> senses...and the processing of them by the brain....including the"learning"
quite
Quoted text (10 lines)
> process. > > Now.....let's define their racing experience as follows: > > "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at > the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ > (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150. > > "Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony > Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars isQuoted text (22 lines)
> wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It has > an RIQ also of 150. > > Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the > same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of > producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well). > > Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" > comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever > driven on? > > I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others. > > Tom > > PS: Think I'll post this again as a new post/thread....so we can see the > comments from everyone separately. > > > > >Doug.........you can define it any way you want. In this "experiment"...I
simply set them both to 150...to eliminate that as a variable.
TP
"Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a5j0ln$7qoe1$[email hidden]...
>
> > "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car"at
japanesse
> nosh-shop."
>
> Doug
>
>
>
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ > > (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150. > > What exactly is an RIQ and how can one have one without doing any R'ing of > any sort whatsover? > > It's like saying > > "I have a JIQ (japaneese intelligence quotient) of ten billion - but I've > never spoken a word of japanesse. How well can I order food in aOn Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:02:17 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
-obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had
hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every
corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even
could think of getting better laptimes.
Andre
Quoted text (12 lines)
>"Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at >the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ >(Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150. > >"Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony >Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars is quite >wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It has >an RIQ also of 150. >Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" >comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever >driven on?
"Andre Warringa"
But I would think driver b would have to unlearn his realworld experiences
to fully grasp the simulator. While driver A could begin assimilating the
nuances of the sim right away....
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > -obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had > hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every > corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even > could think of getting better laptimes. > > AndreAh...but Andre.....that doesn't jive with what has been generally observed
and discussed here. "Real world race drivers" are "slow" in a simulator.
How do you account for that?
Tom
"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:02:17 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]>
> wrote:
>
> >"Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car"at
> >the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ
> >(Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150.
> >
> >"Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony
> >Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars isquite
> >wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. Ithas
Quoted text (12 lines)
> >an RIQ also of 150. > > >Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" > >comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever > >driven on? > > -obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had > hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every > corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even > could think of getting better laptimes. > > AndreSpot on.....Mr. Henrie.
TP
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:XR7f8.11833$[email hidden]...
experiences
> to fully grasp the simulator. While driver A could begin assimilating the
> nuances of the sim right away....
>
>
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > "Andre Warringa" > > > > -obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had > > hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every > > corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even > > could think of getting better laptimes. > > > > Andre > But I would think driver b would have to unlearn his realworldStewart does, all things being equal.
The other guy may, because of a lack of the fear factor, kamikaze his way to
speed but that has more to do with arcadish behavior than methodically and
safely bringing a car up to speed.
Stewart should have more on the ball in interpreting visual cues than the
other guy. On the other hand, simulators have smaller wheels, less rate of
travel and require a much lighter touch than even a simple automobile.
Hence, the qualifier of all things being equal.
Gavel
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dq7f8.12734$bs1.272284@sccrnsc01...
> ***Reposted from the "6/10 Rule" post below to start a new thread***
>
> ********************************
> Gavel...
>
> I like that approach you are taking here.....but here's something youmight
> consider that would alter your thinking just a bit:
>
> Let's take two brains.....call them "Brain-A" and "Brain-B"..........by
> using the term "brain"....I'm talking about the entire mechanism of all
> senses...and the processing of them by the brain....including the"learning"
quite
Quoted text (10 lines)
> process. > > Now.....let's define their racing experience as follows: > > "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at > the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ > (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150. > > "Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony > Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars isQuoted text (22 lines)
> wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It has > an RIQ also of 150. > > Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the > same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of > producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well). > > Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" > comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever > driven on? > > I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others. > > Tom > > PS: Think I'll post this again as a new post/thread....so we can see the > comments from everyone separately. > > > > >
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:XR7f8.11833$[email hidden]...
experiences
> to fully grasp the simulator. While driver A could begin assimilating the
> nuances of the sim right away....
ONLY - if the simulator was innacurate. If it were as good a simulation of
real racing as can be achieved - then brain B walks away with it - to be
caught up by brain A at a later time
Doug
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > "Andre Warringa" > > > > -obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had > > hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every > > corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even > > could think of getting better laptimes. > > > > Andre > But I would think driver b would have to unlearn his realworld
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:yL7f8.12750$bs1.272664@sccrnsc01...
> Doug.........you can define it any way you want. In this "experiment"...I
> simply set them both to 150...to eliminate that as a variable.
>
> TP
Well - if you're eliminating this variable then your questions stands as.
A racing driver, and someone who's never driven a racing car load a
realistic sim.
What will define who's faster is how realistic the simulation is.
If it's increadably realistic to the point of being un-discerable from
reality - then B runs away with it and A will catch up later after making up
for lack experience.
Their final performance will be identical.
If it's the inverse of realism (consider the backwards bycycle for
instance - someone who rides a bike will find this more difficult than
someone who doesnt) - then brain B will suffer from experience contrary to
that of the sim and thus will take time to un-learn or re-learn the skills
required - meanwhile, brain a being of identical talent - will run away with
it - only to be caught up by brain B later on
Their final performance, again, will be identical.
Doug
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:XT7f8.38916$[email hidden]...
> Ah...but Andre.....that doesn't jive with what has been generally observed
> and discussed here. "Real world race drivers" are "slow" in a simulator.
> How do you account for that?
They have spent years driving real cars with a real chance of killing
themselves.
Apart from that japanesse guy who died playing counterstrike - I dont think
anyones killed themselves playing a PC title.
The real driver will carry across the slight reservedness required to not
kill yourself - however a good sim racer doesnt care about killing his or
herself.
After time - of course - the gap between them will shrink.
Doug
My take is that real world guys are slower than veteran sim races. To
answer your question, B in this case since A has never raced anything
period. Another reason and I don't know if anybody has touched on this on
why veteran sim racers are better than real world drivers on simulators is
because they can get track and seat time at any point they want. They don't
have to haul a team, rent a track, just fire up the computer and go racing.
--
Brian Tate
Communications Officer
CART Toyota Atlantic Championship
http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:XT7f8.38916$[email hidden]...
> Ah...but Andre.....that doesn't jive with what has been generally observed
> and discussed here. "Real world race drivers" are "slow" in a simulator.
> How do you account for that?
>
> Tom
>
>
> "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:02:17 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >"Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car
> "at
> > >the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ
> > >(Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150.
> > >
> > >"Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony
> > >Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars is
> quite
> > >wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It
> has
> > >an RIQ also of 150.
> >
> > >Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which
"brain"
> > >comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever
> > >driven on?
> >
> > -obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had
> > hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every
> > corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even
> > could think of getting better laptimes.
> >
> > Andre
>
>
"Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a5j3bk$7s28o$[email hidden]...
><Snip!>
>
That was an excellent explantion and analysis!
/Jens
Quoted text (7 lines)
>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at > the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ > (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150. > > "Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony > Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars is
Another reason and I don't know if anybody has touched on this on
> why veteran sim racers are better than real world drivers on simulators is
> because they can get track and seat time at any point they want. Theydon't
> have to haul a team, rent a track, just fire up the computer and goracing.
>
> --
> Brian Tate I think most drivers would die from exhaustion if they put in half the
laps some of our more dedicated simmers do. Then again..if the sim could
simulate the physical stress of racing, then the simmers would be dropping
like flies...
finally the cost of running all those laps would probably mean ruin for
any team.
dave henrie
Brain A will win. Any decent sim-racer will stuff any real-life racer on any
PC related sim. Get the best real life driver (say schuey) abnd give him 2
yrs extensive gpl practise and IMHO he will still be slower than the fastest
guys... cause sim racers and real racers are totally different ppl driven by
different desires, and have talents that are slightly different too.
Basically the best sim racers are born to do it .. the best real life racers
are born to do it.
dan
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dq7f8.12734$bs1.272284@sccrnsc01...
> ***Reposted from the "6/10 Rule" post below to start a new thread***
>
> ********************************
> Gavel...
>
> I like that approach you are taking here.....but here's something youmight
> consider that would alter your thinking just a bit:
>
> Let's take two brains.....call them "Brain-A" and "Brain-B"..........by
> using the term "brain"....I'm talking about the entire mechanism of all
> senses...and the processing of them by the brain....including the"learning"
quite
Quoted text (10 lines)
> process. > > Now.....let's define their racing experience as follows: > > "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at > the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ > (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150. > > "Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony > Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars isQuoted text (22 lines)
> wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It has > an RIQ also of 150. > > Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the > same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of > producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well). > > Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" > comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever > driven on? > > I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others. > > Tom > > PS: Think I'll post this again as a new post/thread....so we can see the > comments from everyone separately. > > > > >On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:33:59 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
>Ah...but Andre.....that doesn't jive with what has been generally observed
>and discussed here. "Real world race drivers" are "slow" in a simulator.
>How do you account for that?
>
>Tom
Uhm.. err.. ehh.. well I understand the theory about 'unlearning'
certain habits, but it takes quite some time to realize how a car
handles at high speed, if someone never did that it will take some
time to learn and understand how and -why- a car behaves in certain
situations.
If the driving model is close to real, then the question would be what
would be achieved faster: learning why and how a car behaves at high
speed, or unlearning certain habits and driving without certain
real-life inputs.
If I had to guess I'd say the latter is way more easy..
Andre
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<dq7f8.12734$bs1.272284@sccrnsc01>...
> ***Reposted from the "6/10 Rule" post below to start a new thread***
<snip definitions of brain, drivers, etc.>
You need to define RIQ.
> Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the
> same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of
> producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well).
What 6 inputs are we talking about, and for that matter, what are the
other 4? Apologies if I have missed this somewhere.
> Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain"
> comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever
> driven on?
I'd say it depends on too many variables to make this a useful
discussion. Everyone is different, learns differently, accepts/avoids
risk differently, etc. Take the example you gave in the other thread.
Some specimens of the professional driver brain get up to speed very
quickly, some never do. I think the same could be said of the
non-race driver brains. Some will "get it" readily, and some never
will.
Gerald
Hi All
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:XT7f8.38916$[email hidden]...
Snip
> > >Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which"brain"
Don't know if this link will be of interest, it was a comparison between
two leading touring car drivers here in Australia with GPL Demo.
http://www.hyperstimulator.com/home_units/tests/journo_lvi.html
Regards Phil.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> Ah...but Andre.....that doesn't jive with what has been generally observed > and discussed here. "Real world race drivers" are "slow" in a simulator. > How do you account for that? > > Tom > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]...Quoted text (9 lines)
> > >comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever > > >driven on? > > > > -obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had > > hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every > > corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even > > could think of getting better laptimes. > > > > Andre
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Brian Tate wrote:
> My take is that real world guys are slower than veteran sim races. To
> answer your question, B in this case since A has never raced anything
> period. Another reason and I don't know if anybody has touched on this on
> why veteran sim racers are better than real world drivers on simulators is
> because they can get track and seat time at any point they want. They don't
> have to haul a team, rent a track, just fire up the computer and go racing.
A story about a "primitive sim":
In the early 1960's I was lucky enough to attend the pre-race parties
before the Watkins Glen F1 races. There was a slot car track set up in one
room. The drivers (yes many of the ones in GPL) were fiercely competitive
and I have to believe that after just a little practice they would be as
fast as any veteran slot car junkie. Moss in particular was fantastic, he
set the rheostat to full power and just tapped the brake button
(disconnected the power) at exactly the right places.
My take: Top level athletes (in any sport) can't be compared to ordinary
humans -- they have fantastic senses and reflexes and if they accept a
challenge (competition) it's time to get out of the way! It might take
them some time to learn a complex sim, but if they are willing to take the
time they will eventually do very well.
-- Doug Milliken
http://www.millikenresearch.com
Some of the take on this I would say is incorrect. For one there are two
definite way to learn a course and the limits of each corner on a given
course. I have seen guys either follow someone who is reasonably fast on a
track to learn their way or guys who have gone overcook the corners till the
find the edge. Overcooking does require the ability to reel the car back in
and not take a trip thru the weeds at each corner. I watched a guy at Lake
Afton on year in a Formula Vee race learn the track that way and Lake Afton
was a pretty dangerous course if you went off in the wrong spot. You also
have guys who have came up from Autocrossing where you never actaully drive
a given course till the first run. You must be able to put the car on its
limit from the start of the run till the finish. Since you get 3 shots at
the course you must be fast from the first run. Many guys from Autocrossing
have made a very successful transition to road racing, Randy Probst being
one of them. So saying that a real racing driver would be typically slow
while playing a sim or game I would say is not completely correct.
Dave
Fun thread.
My $.02:
I've raced karts very sporadically (some would say erratically!) and found the
transition to sims difficult because I don't get the "seat of the pants" feel.
That feel includes A LOT of sensory input, all over and throughout my head and
body. Racing is very visceral and best done by the body with as little
distraction from consciousness as possible. Thinking is too slow, but it has its
uses. (A smarter driver will win, "bodies" and reactions being equal.) Sim
racing doesn't give me nearly enough sensory input. It's too cerebral. GPL comes
closest to providing Tom's "6 out of 10" but I don't see how any sim with our
current level of technology (and my current level of income!) can provide some
of the feedback I find critical (and most enjoy) when I'm really racing.
So Tom's definition of " brain" is pretty important to the question, I think.
I think knowledge of vehicle dynamics and racecraft can help in sim racing.
Vehicle dynamics can be learned in a classroom, in one sense. But in another
very literal "sense" it has to be experienced.
I don't think anyone knows enough about the brain and learning to be able to
answer the question meaningfully.
Jim
Tom Pabst wrote:
Quoted text (38 lines)
> ***Reposted from the "6/10 Rule" post below to start a new thread*** > > ******************************** > Gavel... > > I like that approach you are taking here.....but here's something you might > consider that would alter your thinking just a bit: > > Let's take two brains.....call them "Brain-A" and "Brain-B"..........by > using the term "brain"....I'm talking about the entire mechanism of all > senses...and the processing of them by the brain....including the "learning" > process. > > Now.....let's define their racing experience as follows: > > "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at > the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ > (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150. > > "Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony > Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars is quite > wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It has > an RIQ also of 150. > > Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the > same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of > producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well). > > Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" > comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever > driven on? > > I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others. > > Tom > > PS: Think I'll post this again as a new post/thread....so we can see the > comments from everyone separately.
"Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a5j3bk$7s28o$[email hidden]...
>
>
> If it's the inverse of realism (consider the backwards bycycle for
> instance - someone who rides a bike will find this more difficult than
> someone who doesnt) - then brain B will suffer from experience contraryto
> that of the sim and thus will take time to un-learn or re-learn the skills
> required - meanwhile, brain a being of identical talent - will run awaywith
> it - only to be caught up by brain B later on
>
We built one of these once (rear-steer). It was quite an experience to
figure out how to ride the damn thing!
I agree with your succint argument for who will be up to speed quicker in a
sim.
Stephen
"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:02:17 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]>
> wrote:
>
> >"Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car"at
> >the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ
> >(Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150.
> >
> >"Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony
> >Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars isquite
> >wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. Ithas
My girlfriend's Playstation-bred younger brother took to GPL like a duck to
water (he didn't even have a road license at the time). He immediately
started breaking all the "rules" of real-world driving and was much quicker
than I was. Eventually, I caught up, but I think that *A* has an advantage
until we give B all the stimulus he is used to receiving.
Stephen
Quoted text (10 lines)
> >an RIQ also of 150. > > >Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" > >comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever > >driven on? > > -obviously- driver B. I remember my first laps in GPL when I had > hardly any knowledge about racing, sliding off the track at every > corner. It wasn;t untill I got the basics of racing before I even > could think of getting better laptimes.I would guess that Brain-B (Tony Stewart) would get up to speed faster. Please
note that Tom stated that Brain-A has never even driven a simulator, so we're
not comparing a veteran sim racer trying out a new sim versus an experienced
real world driver. The Brain-A driver would have to learn EVERYTHING about
racing from scratch - racing lines on a variety of curve types, braking hard
without locking up, brake points and turn-in points, easy-in/fast-out, and
much, much more. The Brain-B driver would already have these concepts
completely mastered. The only disadvantage that the Brain-B driver might have
is a reluctance to push the car beyond what he perceives as a (reasonably) safe
limit. The more accurate the sim, the greater the advantage that Brain-B would
have at the start of this experiment.
Now the one variable in all this is the concept of the Racing Intelligence
Quotient. I'm assuming that this measures some innate ability to race cars
fast. Since Tom states that this is equal in the two brains, Brain-A has no
advantage. However, if you postulate that there are in fact two different IQs
actually present - one a Sim Racing IQ (SRIQ)- some different set of innate
skills allowing you to perceive and interact with information presented on a
computer system (both visual and audio, but not including G-forces) and the
other the Racing IQ, you have a different story. Perhaps someone like Greger
Huttu has an SRIQ of 200 and an RIQ of 125 whereas Michael Schumacher might
have an RIQ of 200, but an SRIQ of 125. In that case, there probably is some
complex interaction between the two factors which would determine both how
quickly one could get up to speed on a sim, as well as the total potential to
drive that sim.
Dave Ewing
--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing
Xilinx Boulder [email hidden]
*****************************************************
In article <a5j3bk$7s28o$[email hidden]>, "Douglas Ellison"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Their final performance, again, will be identical.
If that's the case, how do you account for the wide discrepancy of skill levels
between drivers in CURRENT sims? According to your reasoning, we should ALL be
as fast as Huttu, Wilke, etc...<g>
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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In article <a5j3fq$76j0t$[email hidden]>, "Douglas Ellison"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>The real driver will carry across the slight reservedness required to not
>kill yourself - however a good sim racer doesnt care about killing his or
>herself.
I had someone in one of my leagues pose this explanation as maybe one reason
that I have difficulty getting up to speed. His theory:I drive the sim as if
it were REAL. Meaning, when I overcook a corner, I'm not thinking "Damn, now
I'm going to have to shift-r, and be saddled with full fuel and cold tires
again." Instead, I'm thinking "Shit - I'm gonna DIE!"<g> Sorta makes sense -
maybe I'm averse to finding the limits, and so don't press as hard as I
*could*...?
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <a5j3bk$7s28o$[email hidden]>, "Douglas Ellison"
> <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> >Their final performance, again, will be identical.
>
> If that's the case, how do you account for the wide discrepancy of skilllevels
> between drivers in CURRENT sims? According to your reasoning, we should ALLbe
> as fast as Huttu, Wilke, etc...<g>
>
Eldred, you and I don't have a Racing IQ of 150. Wilke does.
/Jens
Perfect answer......
Since a "sim" will never be EXACTLY like a real race car.....this would be
the expected outcome....even if the sim is 95% as good as a real race
car...you know?
TP
"Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a5j3bk$7s28o$[email hidden]...
>
> "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:yL7f8.12750$bs1.272664@sccrnsc01...
> > Doug.........you can define it any way you want. In this"experiment"...I
up
to
> that of the sim and thus will take time to un-learn or re-learn the skills
> required - meanwhile, brain a being of identical talent - will run awaywith
