BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for
release in 2 weeks time.
I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one.
The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to build
a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many sites
available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become
difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack.
CANT WAIT for this one!!!
Glenn
We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the Austrlain
tracks
Screenies link for those who missed it.
http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml
Flame warEA's Australian V8 Challenge screenshots and multiplayer debate
Screenshots of EA's upcoming Australian V8 Supercars game, based on the STCC2 engine, prompted complaints about missing cockpit shots and doubts about its multiplayer. The thread became a debate over why only Papyrus and Monster Games offered full-field online racing, with David G Fisher blaming F1 licensing and low demand, and ymenard calling the FIA explanation an urban legend. Kendt Eklund credited Papyrus's early client/server design, and the argument turned personal at times.
online racing/leaguesindustry/businessrelease/news
Automated summary.
"GC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Yet another racing game that doesn't consider in-car important enough to
provide a SINGLE in-car shot in their promotional package. Always makes me
wonder. Ford Racing, anyone?
Sure it's pretty but...
Quoted text (22 lines)
> BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > release in 2 weeks time. > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to build > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many sites > available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > Glenn > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the Austrlain > tracks > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml"Rob Adams" wrote...
> Yet another racing game that doesn't consider in-car important
> enough to provide a SINGLE in-car shot in their promotional
> package. Always makes me wonder. Ford Racing, anyone?
>
> Sure it's pretty but...
In car should be there considering it's based on STCC2. Physics, if
untweaked, may be debatable, but certainly better than Ford Racing.
Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.
Haven't checked into this, but knowing EA, the multi will be non-existent
and/or lousy. Any news on that end?
Thanks.
-John
GC <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (22 lines)
> BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > release in 2 weeks time. > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to build > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many sites > available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > Glenn > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the Austrlain > tracks > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml This is the one based on the Sweedish Touring Car2 engine correct? That
had multi, but certainly not anywhere near the level of the Papyrus and
Monster Games Inc programs. Has ANYONE figured out how to get more than 6
cars in a field besides these two????
dave henrie
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Haven't checked into this, but knowing EA, the multi will benon-existent
Quoted text (33 lines)
> and/or lousy. Any news on that end? > > Thanks. > > -John > > > GC <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > > release in 2 weeks time. > > > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to build > > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many sites > > available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become > > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the Austrlain > > tracks > > > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml > >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:59:05 GMT, "Rob Adams"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Uh, the U.S. release of Ford Racing DID have an in-car view, FWIW.
:-/
-- JB
Quoted text (28 lines)
>"GC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for >> release in 2 weeks time. >> >> I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. >> >> The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to build >> a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many sites >> available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become >> difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. >> >> CANT WAIT for this one!!! >> >> Glenn >> >> >> >> We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the Austrlain >> tracks >> >> Screenies link for those who missed it. >> >> http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml > >Yet another racing game that doesn't consider in-car important enough to >provide a SINGLE in-car shot in their promotional package. Always makes me >wonder. Ford Racing, anyone?You keep complaining about multi but are forgetting the facts.
EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games because they
aren't allowed to.
Can they? Of course. It's just code, and it's hardly top secret information.
At the very least, they could simply hire someone who does know how to do
it. Problem solved. I was playing POD by Ubi almost five years ago and it
had great online play. TRI does excellent online play in their racing games.
If they were allowed, I'm sure Ubi and EA would do it but no amount of
complaining here is going to help.
BTW, I still see no evidence that online play translates to sales.
David G Fisher
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:DCp38.1594$[email hidden]...
> This is the one based on the Sweedish Touring Car2 engine correct? That
> had multi, but certainly not anywhere near the level of the Papyrus and
> Monster Games Inc programs. Has ANYONE figured out how to get more than6
Quoted text (41 lines)
> cars in a field besides these two???? > dave henrie > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Haven't checked into this, but knowing EA, the multi will be > non-existent > > and/or lousy. Any news on that end? > > > > Thanks. > > > > -John > > > > > > GC <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > > > release in 2 weeks time. > > > > > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > > > > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to build > > > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many sites > > > available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become > > > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > > > > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the Austrlain > > > tracks > > > > > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > > > > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml > > > > > > I'm not complaining about it, never have. Just said no multi, no thanks.
Others like offline, more power to them.
Not for me........and again, it's not complaining, it's a preference :)
-John
David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:VYq38.10246$[email hidden]...
> You keep complaining about multi but are forgetting the facts.
>
> EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games becausethey
> aren't allowed to.
>
> Can they? Of course. It's just code, and it's hardly top secretinformation.
> At the very least, they could simply hire someone who does know how to do
> it. Problem solved. I was playing POD by Ubi almost five years ago and it
> had great online play. TRI does excellent online play in their racinggames.
That
> > had multi, but certainly not anywhere near the level of the Papyrus and
> > Monster Games Inc programs. Has ANYONE figured out how to get morethan
build
Austrlain
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > If they were allowed, I'm sure Ubi and EA would do it but no amount of > complaining here is going to help. > > BTW, I still see no evidence that online play translates to sales. > > David G Fisher > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:DCp38.1594$[email hidden]... > > This is the one based on the Sweedish Touring Car2 engine correct?Quoted text (22 lines)
> 6 > > cars in a field besides these two???? > > dave henrie > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Haven't checked into this, but knowing EA, the multi will be > > non-existent > > > and/or lousy. Any news on that end? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > GC <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > > > > release in 2 weeks time. > > > > > > > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > > > > > > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you toQuoted text (11 lines)
> > > > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many sites > > > > available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become > > > > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > > > > > > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > > > > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all theQuoted text (11 lines)
> > > > tracks > > > > > > > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > > > > > > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > > P.s. I also never said anything about online play translates into sales.
It probably doesn't; big deal.
I don't like vanilla ice cream either :)
-John
David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:VYq38.10246$[email hidden]...
> You keep complaining about multi but are forgetting the facts.
>
> EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games becausethey
> aren't allowed to.
>
> Can they? Of course. It's just code, and it's hardly top secretinformation.
> At the very least, they could simply hire someone who does know how to do
> it. Problem solved. I was playing POD by Ubi almost five years ago and it
> had great online play. TRI does excellent online play in their racinggames.
That
> > had multi, but certainly not anywhere near the level of the Papyrus and
> > Monster Games Inc programs. Has ANYONE figured out how to get morethan
build
Austrlain
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > If they were allowed, I'm sure Ubi and EA would do it but no amount of > complaining here is going to help. > > BTW, I still see no evidence that online play translates to sales. > > David G Fisher > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:DCp38.1594$[email hidden]... > > This is the one based on the Sweedish Touring Car2 engine correct?Quoted text (22 lines)
> 6 > > cars in a field besides these two???? > > dave henrie > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Haven't checked into this, but knowing EA, the multi will be > > non-existent > > > and/or lousy. Any news on that end? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > GC <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > > > > release in 2 weeks time. > > > > > > > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > > > > > > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you toQuoted text (11 lines)
> > > > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many sites > > > > available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become > > > > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > > > > > > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > > > > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all theQuoted text (11 lines)
> > > > tracks > > > > > > > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > > > > > > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > >I wasn't directing my "complaining" comments towards you. I responded to
Dave's post. He seems to often question why some of the other developers
don't have better multi.
David G Fisher
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I'm not complaining about it, never have. Just said no multi, nothanks.
do
> > it. Problem solved. I was playing POD by Ubi almost five years ago andit
and
sites
Quoted text (18 lines)
> Others like offline, more power to them. > > Not for me........and again, it's not complaining, it's a preference :) > > -John > > > David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VYq38.10246$[email hidden]... > > You keep complaining about multi but are forgetting the facts. > > > > EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games because > they > > aren't allowed to. > > > > Can they? Of course. It's just code, and it's hardly top secret > information. > > At the very least, they could simply hire someone who does know how toQuoted text (15 lines)
> > had great online play. TRI does excellent online play in their racing > games. > > > > If they were allowed, I'm sure Ubi and EA would do it but no amount of > > complaining here is going to help. > > > > BTW, I still see no evidence that online play translates to sales. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:DCp38.1594$[email hidden]... > > > This is the one based on the Sweedish Touring Car2 engine correct? > That > > > had multi, but certainly not anywhere near the level of the PapyrusQuoted text (26 lines)
> > > Monster Games Inc programs. Has ANYONE figured out how to get more > than > > 6 > > > cars in a field besides these two???? > > > dave henrie > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Haven't checked into this, but knowing EA, the multi will be > > > non-existent > > > > and/or lousy. Any news on that end? > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > > GC <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > > > > > release in 2 weeks time. > > > > > > > > > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > > > > > > > > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to > build > > > > > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so manyQuoted text (24 lines)
> > > > > available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become > > > > > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > > > > > > > > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > > > > > > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the > Austrlain > > > > > tracks > > > > > > > > > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I know you didn't. It's just something I threw in there and is part of the
reason multiplay isn't a priority to developers.
David G Fisher
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> P.s. I also never said anything about online play translates intosales.
do
> > it. Problem solved. I was playing POD by Ubi almost five years ago andit
and
sites
Quoted text (18 lines)
> It probably doesn't; big deal. > > I don't like vanilla ice cream either :) > > -John > > > David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VYq38.10246$[email hidden]... > > You keep complaining about multi but are forgetting the facts. > > > > EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games because > they > > aren't allowed to. > > > > Can they? Of course. It's just code, and it's hardly top secret > information. > > At the very least, they could simply hire someone who does know how toQuoted text (15 lines)
> > had great online play. TRI does excellent online play in their racing > games. > > > > If they were allowed, I'm sure Ubi and EA would do it but no amount of > > complaining here is going to help. > > > > BTW, I still see no evidence that online play translates to sales. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:DCp38.1594$[email hidden]... > > > This is the one based on the Sweedish Touring Car2 engine correct? > That > > > had multi, but certainly not anywhere near the level of the PapyrusQuoted text (26 lines)
> > > Monster Games Inc programs. Has ANYONE figured out how to get more > than > > 6 > > > cars in a field besides these two???? > > > dave henrie > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Haven't checked into this, but knowing EA, the multi will be > > > non-existent > > > > and/or lousy. Any news on that end? > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > > GC <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > > > > > release in 2 weeks time. > > > > > > > > > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > > > > > > > > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to > build > > > > > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so manyQuoted text (24 lines)
> > > > > available for this sim that finding the right downloads may become > > > > > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > > > > > > > > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > > > > > > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the > Austrlain > > > > > tracks > > > > > > > > > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My confusion, sorry about that and my other reply. Evening turned crazy
on me :(
-John
David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:yer38.10252$[email hidden]...
become
Quoted text (75 lines)
> I know you didn't. It's just something I threw in there and is part of the > reason multiplay isn't a priority to developers. > > David G Fisher > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > P.s. I also never said anything about online play translates into > sales. > > It probably doesn't; big deal. > > > > I don't like vanilla ice cream either :) > > > > -John > > > > > > David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:VYq38.10246$[email hidden]... > > > You keep complaining about multi but are forgetting the facts. > > > > > > EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games because > > they > > > aren't allowed to. > > > > > > Can they? Of course. It's just code, and it's hardly top secret > > information. > > > At the very least, they could simply hire someone who does know how to > do > > > it. Problem solved. I was playing POD by Ubi almost five years ago and > it > > > had great online play. TRI does excellent online play in their racing > > games. > > > > > > If they were allowed, I'm sure Ubi and EA would do it but no amount of > > > complaining here is going to help. > > > > > > BTW, I still see no evidence that online play translates to sales. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:DCp38.1594$[email hidden]... > > > > This is the one based on the Sweedish Touring Car2 engine correct? > > That > > > > had multi, but certainly not anywhere near the level of the Papyrus > and > > > > Monster Games Inc programs. Has ANYONE figured out how to get more > > than > > > 6 > > > > cars in a field besides these two???? > > > > dave henrie > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Haven't checked into this, but knowing EA, the multi will be > > > > non-existent > > > > > and/or lousy. Any news on that end? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GC <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > BHMS provided this link to the screenies. Apparentl its due for > > > > > > release in 2 weeks time. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think every bor racer in Australai will buy this one. > > > > > > > > > > > > The link in the Ea website offers a full skin that allows you to > > build > > > > > > a web site for this sim. I think we are going to have so many > sites > > > > > > available for this sim that finding the right downloads mayQuoted text (25 lines)
> > > > > > difficult. Hopefully one may put its head up from the pack. > > > > > > > > > > > > CANT WAIT for this one!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We will now have professionally modelled circuits of all the > > Austrlain > > > > > > tracks > > > > > > > > > > > > Screenies link for those who missed it. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.rgonetwork.com/screenshots/v8challenge_pc.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:adr38.10251$[email hidden]...
> I wasn't directing my "complaining" comments towards you. I responded to
> Dave's post. He seems to often question why some of the other developers
> don't have better multi.
>
> David G Fisher
>
True the F1 titles are limited by licensing concerns. But that says to me
that all it takes is cash. Here's my beef....we have umpteen different
racing sims....But of the dozens of racing titles only TWO companies can
have upwards of 20 drivers per race and NO one else has stepped up. ISI's
first title SCGT had misreable multi...still does, and it seems they just
ported that module into the F1 titles.
GP2,3,3000 didn't even have multi, even bad multiplayer. This wasn't a
licensing issue, it was bad coding.( I played a two player modem to modem
World Circut session it seems like10 years ago...they have made no effort to
improve that.) Perhaps with the multiplayer features announced in GP4 we
will finally see a full field, but I rather doubt it. (I would love to be
wrong!)
The few web pages that announce features of WSC seem to indicate that 8
players will be the maximum...blech......
Think of all the microprose racers...4 to 6 is the average allowable.
Wouldn't Motocross Madness 2 be amazing with 30 riders on a Supercross
track? We we ever see that? (no FIA restrictions there)
How many could race online in SBK 2001? oops trick question NONE!
HELL even AMA Superbike which was 'supposed' to be an online only game
couldn't get more than a handful online at once.
What other racing sims out there have multiplayer capability? STCC2?
limited #'s again,(and thus the new Aussie version most likely also){No FIA
restrictions on Sweedish Touring cars} The F1 end-arounds like Monaco GP
skipped the FIA licenses yet still can't get a decent mulitplayer going.
How about all those Need for Speed titles? Any decent packs there?
Even the massive multiplayer online title doesn't have large packs of cars
racing together does it?
The various Karting titles? 15 to 20 multiplayer? Not that I've heard
of.
We'll give the Rallye titles a pass since most of Rallying is a solo type
exercise.
The Toca Touring car licenses...I recall they do have an online
community but it doesn't strike me as a large group online at once.(I should
dig into that to find out)
About the only other ones I can think of that made an EFFORT for online
play are the Dirt Track Racer series and the original Interstate 76(did that
max out at 8?)
So yeah I'm bitching and complaining. Doom had 2 and then 4 player free
for alls years and years ago. Quake and all it's clones have 20 to 30+ on
servers all over the world. The Online airwarrior type flight sims have
upto a hundred aircraft per arena. Why then is sim-racing so hamstrung???
If the FIA is controlling the lack of multiplayer in the F1 titles, why
haven't the dozen or so other types of racing sims attempted to produce a
more challenging online enviroment? Why not even the arcade racers? How
many can run in the Screamers, and the Jet Moto's of the world?
It's just a dang shame, a couple of companies have shown large fields
work, yet the rest of the industry can't seem to figure it out. Heck, Since
F1 fields are half the size of Nascar, it should be child's play. I wait
for the next round of titles and hope some progress is made.
dave henrie
You had a lot you wanted to get out, didn't you? :-)
I said in another post that I don't think multiplayer helps sales in auto
sims yet. If full field multiplay was what the people wanted, it would be in
there. The one exception is the NASCAR series. I'd bet a lot of money that
the sales for NASCAR2002 would probably be cut in half if full field
multiplay wasn't available because (not saying this to make people mad) it's
boring to a lot of people to go around in circles. What makes the NASCAR
series fun is racing against other people. So with N2k2, it's a necessity.
Also, the Papyrus NASCAR games sells mostly to Americans who had unlimited
online time long before most countries all over the world, so Papyrus
started workingon online play sooner. F1 sims (and the others you mention)
mostly sell outside the U.S. where people have had to pay a lot more for
their online time. The other games you mention are still fun for people to
race offline or to hotlap with. NASCAR isn't. At least not for the majority
of people who buy it IMO.
David G Fisher
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:V7t38.2449$[email hidden]...
ISI's
> first title SCGT had misreable multi...still does, and it seems they just
> ported that module into the F1 titles.
> GP2,3,3000 didn't even have multi, even bad multiplayer. This wasn't a
> licensing issue, it was bad coding.( I played a two player modem to modem
> World Circut session it seems like10 years ago...they have made no effortto
FIA
should
> dig into that to find out)
> About the only other ones I can think of that made an EFFORT for online
> play are the Dirt Track Racer series and the original Interstate 76(didthat
Since
> F1 fields are half the size of Nascar, it should be child's play. I wait
> for the next round of titles and hope some progress is made.
> dave henrie
>
>
>
Quoted text (13 lines)
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:adr38.10251$[email hidden]... > > I wasn't directing my "complaining" comments towards you. I responded to > > Dave's post. He seems to often question why some of the other developers > > don't have better multi. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > True the F1 titles are limited by licensing concerns. But that says to me > that all it takes is cash. Here's my beef....we have umpteen different > racing sims....But of the dozens of racing titles only TWO companies can > have upwards of 20 drivers per race and NO one else has stepped up.Quoted text (13 lines)
> improve that.) Perhaps with the multiplayer features announced in GP4 we > will finally see a full field, but I rather doubt it. (I would love to be > wrong!) > The few web pages that announce features of WSC seem to indicate that 8 > players will be the maximum...blech...... > Think of all the microprose racers...4 to 6 is the average allowable. > Wouldn't Motocross Madness 2 be amazing with 30 riders on a Supercross > track? We we ever see that? (no FIA restrictions there) > How many could race online in SBK 2001? oops trick question NONE! > HELL even AMA Superbike which was 'supposed' to be an online only game > couldn't get more than a handful online at once. > What other racing sims out there have multiplayer capability? STCC2? > limited #'s again,(and thus the new Aussie version most likely also){NoQuoted text (11 lines)
> restrictions on Sweedish Touring cars} The F1 end-arounds like Monaco GP > skipped the FIA licenses yet still can't get a decent mulitplayer going. > How about all those Need for Speed titles? Any decent packs there? > Even the massive multiplayer online title doesn't have large packs of cars > racing together does it? > The various Karting titles? 15 to 20 multiplayer? Not that I've heard > of. > We'll give the Rallye titles a pass since most of Rallying is a solo type > exercise. > The Toca Touring car licenses...I recall they do have an online > community but it doesn't strike me as a large group online at once.(IQuoted text (11 lines)
> max out at 8?) > So yeah I'm bitching and complaining. Doom had 2 and then 4 player free > for alls years and years ago. Quake and all it's clones have 20 to 30+ on > servers all over the world. The Online airwarrior type flight sims have > upto a hundred aircraft per arena. Why then is sim-racing so hamstrung??? > If the FIA is controlling the lack of multiplayer in the F1 titles, why > haven't the dozen or so other types of racing sims attempted to produce a > more challenging online enviroment? Why not even the arcade racers? How > many can run in the Screamers, and the Jet Moto's of the world? > It's just a dang shame, a couple of companies have shown large fields > work, yet the rest of the industry can't seem to figure it out. Heck,>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games becausethey
> aren't allowed to.
Urban legend!
Stop talking about POD, it's a completely different entity. The only thing
close is it's linear approach to prediction coding. It has a different game
engine, a different type of racing (it's more important then you think),
etc...
> BTW, I still see no evidence that online play translates to sales.
Wow, you were writing that in 1999 or something, you still think that way
after all the MMORPG, FPS, Spacesims, Flightsims, etc..? My god, rethink of
your gaming philosophy David.
Today, multiplayer IS the sale.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote<snip>
Wow, that is called, a bitch slap.
Eh!
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:sIt38.6881$[email hidden]...
> >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> > EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games because
> they
> > aren't allowed to.
>
> Urban legend!
You must not bother to read Schumi's posts. FIA has everything to do with
it.
>
> Stop talking about POD, it's a completely different entity. The onlything
> close is it's linear approach to prediction coding. It has a differentgame
of
> your gaming philosophy David.
>
> Today, multiplayer IS the sale.
We're talking about auto simulators. You do know that, right?
David G Fisher
Quoted text (8 lines)
> engine, a different type of racing (it's more important then you think), > etc... > > > > BTW, I still see no evidence that online play translates to sales. > > Wow, you were writing that in 1999 or something, you still think that way > after all the MMORPG, FPS, Spacesims, Flightsims, etc..? My god, rethink
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:kKt38.6887$[email hidden]...
> >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote
> <snip>
>
>
> Wow, that is called, a bitch slap.
If you think that is a bitch slap then you've had even less interaction with
women than I suspected.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > > > > Eh! > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >> <snip>
> Wow, that is called, a *** slap.
If you think that is a *** slap then you've had even less interaction with
women than I suspected.
David G Fisher
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:
> You keep complaining about multi but are forgetting the facts.
>
> EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games because they
> aren't allowed to.
why is this?
--
Gunnar
#31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2
FJ�SE!
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes:
> P.s. I also never said anything about online play translates into sales.
> It probably doesn't; big deal.
there's no way to tell, is there? I mean, the only ones that do it
close to right is GPL, which isn't for the average joe, and Nascar.
the Nascar-series seems to do pretty well, but I don't think you can
make a whole lot of marketing statistics from one game.
I think the reason online play doesn't translate to huge sales, is
that noone has really tried.
--
Gunnar
#31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2
gitaren er en sjingke
i agree multi is everything
if i cant race my mates i usually dont play them
Brad
Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> > You keep complaining about multi but are forgetting the facts.
> >
> > EA and Ubi did not develope their multiplay for their F1 games becausethey
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > aren't allowed to. > > why is this? > > > -- > Gunnar > #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 > FJ�SE!
John Pancoast wrote:
>
> I'm not complaining about it, never have. Just said no multi, no thanks.
> Others like offline, more power to them.
>
> Not for me........and again, it's not complaining, it's a preference :)
Totally agree with you there, John. DFG's always preferred to play with
himself though ;)
Gerry
Gerry Aitken wrote:
*Opps, DFG = DGF :)
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > I'm not complaining about it, never have. Just said no multi, no thanks. > > Others like offline, more power to them. > > > > Not for me........and again, it's not complaining, it's a preference :) > > Totally agree with you there, John. *DFG's always preferred to play with > himself though ;) > > GerryDavid G Fisher wrote:
Or more successful interactions than you have apparently had. :-P
--
Fester
"Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no
brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?"
from alt.linux.mandrake NG
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kKt38.6887$[email hidden]... > > >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > > <snip> > > > > > > Wow, that is called, a bitch slap. > > If you think that is a bitch slap then you've had even less interaction with > women than I suspected.>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> You must not bother to read Schumi's posts. FIA has everything to do with
> it.
I say and will continue to say, it's an urban legend and simply an excuse
like the GT developpers stating they do not have a correct damage modeling
engine because the manufacturers don't want.
> We're talking about auto simulators. You do know that, right?
The NROS, N3 and N4 have proven that.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> Also, the Papyrus NASCAR games sells mostly to Americans who had unlimited
> online time long before most countries all over the world, so Papyrus
> started workingon online play sooner.
Yeah the rest of the world is still phoning people with tincans and strings.
David, the rest of the world is on digital connections also, you know?
You're stuck in the 1999 mentality where people in Europe or the UK or
Australia or Japan are stuck with crappy 28k connections for the most. One
way or another, it is STILL possible to have 30+ car fields with a simple
56kb connection. It was proven on the NROS. You need very small bandwidth
for Internet multiplayer racing, much less then most of the other
multiplayer online services. The principal problem is to keep the quality
of the connection as high as possible.
> F1 sims (and the others you mention) mostly sell outside the U.S.
So, tell me, why is there more Americans playing GPL then anybody other
country?
Really, you cannot say at the moment that full-field multiplayer (and the
community options given to the customers) would not help the sales of a
modern F1 sim, because it has never happened, all developpers who tried are
unable and
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<DCp38.1594$[email hidden]>...
> This is the one based on the Sweedish Touring Car2 engine correct? That
> had multi, but certainly not anywhere near the level of the Papyrus and
> Monster Games Inc programs. Has ANYONE figured out how to get more than 6
> cars in a field besides these two????
> dave henrie
What alot of people complaining about lack of multiplay forget is a
bit of history about the brilliance of Papy's design way back when.
They went to a client/server model in the code (even when running
offline) that made it much easier to develop quality multiplay. All
the more advanced FPS games work on the same principle. I remember an
article long ago when GPL was in alpha/beta, and Papy were talking
about this architecture, and explaining why the CPU overhead would be
worth it.
This carried over to N4 of course, and is the reason you can do cool
stuff like multi-displays in GPL for your triple monitor setup ;).
I don't think any other racing sim developer has a design this
advanced. Geoff Crammond's design is probably the worst offender here
- the "calculate every frame" model was one reason multiplay was
nearly hopeless in GPx.
MGI was a spin-off of ex-Papy developers, right? No surprise they got
multi right as well.
For me multiplay is not that important at the moment. I had ISDN out
here in the boonies where I live, but it went down more times than a
(insert cheap joke here). AI performance is key to me, and one of the
things that annoys me is developers that have obviously skimped on
multiplay can't make decent AI either (EA F1, anyone?).
I'd hoped to start a league for clean but slow GPL drivers, but
without decent internet that ain't happening. Oh well, more time for
real life I guess.
I've bought *every* Papy sim since ICR (missed the original Indy sim),
and they're about the only developer I can say that about (OK, the
Superbike/2000/2001 guys too - what are *they* doing now?).
Kendt
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ytC38.14674$[email hidden]...
> >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> > Also, the Papyrus NASCAR games sells mostly to Americans who hadunlimited
> > online time long before most countries all over the world, so Papyrus
> > started workingon online play sooner.
>
> Yeah the rest of the world is still phoning people with tincans andstrings.
> David, the rest of the world is on digital connections also, you know?
> You're stuck in the 1999 mentality where people in Europe or the UK or
> Australia or Japan are stuck with crappy 28k connections for the most.
Does anyone on this f**king newsgroup know how to read a post? Did I say
people outside the U.S. are STILL in the same situation they were a few
years ago?
Let's assume that ISI or Ubi (or any of the developers Dave H. mentioned)
are somehow too stupid to figure out how to make the multiplay code work in
auto sims. It's some kind of incredible, mind boggling secret. Let's assume
that good multiplay in auto sims is in huge demand, and would double their
sales. Why wouldn't an auto sim developer then simply offer someone who has
coded great muliplayer (from one of the flight sims, fps, Papyrus, etc.) a
50% pay rise to come and code their auto sim? For such a small investment,
they'd reap huge profits. Why don't they do it?
The answer is that they are not allowed (as in Ubi and ISI's case) or there
IS NOT a demand for it yet in most auto sims.
David G Fisher
BTW, it's not kjust the type of connection that people had/have, but how
much it cost them to be online. I've had unlimited online time (cable for
two years) with excellent connections for a small, flat fee for five years
now. Is that the same situation that others throughout the world have
enjoyed?
David G Fisher
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:V%G38.10933$[email hidden]...
in
> auto sims. It's some kind of incredible, mind boggling secret. Let'sassume
> that good multiplay in auto sims is in huge demand, and would double their
> sales. Why wouldn't an auto sim developer then simply offer someone whohas
> coded great muliplayer (from one of the flight sims, fps, Papyrus, etc.) a
> 50% pay rise to come and code their auto sim? For such a small investment,
> they'd reap huge profits. Why don't they do it?
>
> The answer is that they are not allowed (as in Ubi and ISI's case) orthere
> IS NOT a demand for it yet in most auto sims.
>
> David G Fisher
>
>
Quoted text (21 lines)
> > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ytC38.14674$[email hidden]... > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > Also, the Papyrus NASCAR games sells mostly to Americans who had > unlimited > > > online time long before most countries all over the world, so Papyrus > > > started workingon online play sooner. > > > > Yeah the rest of the world is still phoning people with tincans and > strings. > > David, the rest of the world is on digital connections also, you know? > > You're stuck in the 1999 mentality where people in Europe or the UK or > > Australia or Japan are stuck with crappy 28k connections for the most. > > Does anyone on this f**king newsgroup know how to read a post? Did I say > people outside the U.S. are STILL in the same situation they were a few > years ago? > > Let's assume that ISI or Ubi (or any of the developers Dave H. mentioned) > are somehow too stupid to figure out how to make the multiplay code work>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> BTW, it's not kjust the type of connection that people had/have, but how
> much it cost them to be online. I've had unlimited online time (cable for
> two years) with excellent connections for a small, flat fee for five years
> now. Is that the same situation that others throughout the world have
> enjoyed?
Why would you think that it's a problem with people not in the USA? Really,
most of us don't have any kind of problem with limited time (it's unlimited
or very close to it for about everybody now who pays a normal price for his
ISP) :)
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
In article <V7t38.2449$[email hidden]>,
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> The few web pages that announce features of WSC seem to indicate that 8
> players will be the maximum...blech......
Is this true? I thought WSC was supposed to be the be-all end-all GPL
killer, run a full Le Mans field of 60 cars, etc. If all it can do is
8 players online, it ain't gonna cut it. I hope this information is
incorrect, or all the hype/waiting over WSC has been a waste of breath,
IMHO...
Marc
Yes........now.
David G Fisher
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:pNH38.12356$[email hidden]...
> >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> > BTW, it's not kjust the type of connection that people had/have, but how
> > much it cost them to be online. I've had unlimited online time (cablefor
> > two years) with excellent connections for a small, flat fee for fiveyears
> > now. Is that the same situation that others throughout the world have
> > enjoyed?
>
>
> Why would you think that it's a problem with people not in the USA?Really,
> most of us don't have any kind of problem with limited time (it'sunlimited
> or very close to it for about everybody now who pays a normal price forhis
Quoted text (12 lines)
> ISP) :) > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:ZoC38.14632$[email hidden]:
Say what you like, manufacturer insistence plays a major part in these
decisions. Case in point, Screamer 4x4 had fully deformable vehicles in
its damage model, and the programmers were forced to remove the damage
model at the insistence of the car manufacturers whose products were
licenced in the game. One of the programmers "let slip" a config file
edit that re-enabled the damage model after the game was released.
For a developer working for a company like EA, using such an important
license as F1 (for example) such cavalier programming trickery wouldn't
get past one release, after which it's likely any licenser will not be
interested in further cooperation for future games.
David's claim that the FIA (or whoever) has imposed restrictions on F1 is
entirely plausible, and I see no reason to deny it , except to argue for
arguments sake.
cheers
John
Quoted text (8 lines)
>>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote >> You must not bother to read Schumi's posts. FIA has everything to do >> with it. > > I say and will continue to say, it's an urban legend and simply an > excuse like the GT developpers stating they do not have a correct > damage modeling engine because the manufacturers don't want. >
JM wrote:
Is it plausible that it's just an excuse?
GA
Quoted text (28 lines)
> > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:ZoC38.14632$[email hidden]: > > >>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> You must not bother to read Schumi's posts. FIA has everything to do > >> with it. > > > > I say and will continue to say, it's an urban legend and simply an > > excuse like the GT developpers stating they do not have a correct > > damage modeling engine because the manufacturers don't want. > > > > Say what you like, manufacturer insistence plays a major part in these > decisions. Case in point, Screamer 4x4 had fully deformable vehicles in > its damage model, and the programmers were forced to remove the damage > model at the insistence of the car manufacturers whose products were > licenced in the game. One of the programmers "let slip" a config file > edit that re-enabled the damage model after the game was released. > > For a developer working for a company like EA, using such an important > license as F1 (for example) such cavalier programming trickery wouldn't > get past one release, after which it's likely any licenser will not be > interested in further cooperation for future games. > > David's claim that the FIA (or whoever) has imposed restrictions on F1 is > entirely plausible, and I see no reason to deny it , except to argue for > arguments sake.In article <kIt38.10523$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Also, the Papyrus NASCAR games sells mostly to Americans who had unlimited
>online time long before most countries all over the world, so Papyrus
>started workingon online play sooner. F1 sims (and the others you mention)
>mostly sell outside the U.S. where people have had to pay a lot more for
>their online time.
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Which do you think is the
bigger issue - perceived lack of customers wanting MP, or the FIA issue? I
can't remember, was the reason the FIA didn't want MP that they had something
else coming out? If they don't, I'm afraid I don't understand their reasoning.
I remember someone joking once that it wouldn't look good for a Minardi to be
a Ferrari or McLaren in an online race, so that was a consideration...<g>
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
It's likely a combination of both.
Papyrus probably has to pay a fraction to NASCAR of what the F1 developers
have to pay to the FIA. F1 has 350,000,000 viewers per race while NASCAR has
about 10,000,000. Which license is going to cost more? If the demand was
really high for F1 multiplay and it would increase sales enough to offset
the internet play licensing fees, than they'd do it. I just don't think
ability has anything to do with the current situation at all.
David G Fisher
> >Also, the Papyrus NASCAR games sells mostly to Americans who hadunlimited
> >online time long before most countries all over the world, so Papyrus
> >started workingon online play sooner. F1 sims (and the others youmention)
> >mostly sell outside the U.S. where people have had to pay a lot more for
> >their online time.
>
> That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Which do you think is the
> bigger issue - perceived lack of customers wanting MP, or the FIA issue?I
> can't remember, was the reason the FIA didn't want MP that they hadsomething
> else coming out? If they don't, I'm afraid I don't understand theirreasoning.
> I remember someone joking once that it wouldn't look good for a Minardito be
> a Ferrari or McLaren in an online race, so that was a consideration...<g>
>
> Eldred
> --
>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrot
> Yes........now.
Fair point. Still, if I'm developing a sim it was obvious that "now" would
had been the perfect time to release it as we're all ready for it. We knew
two years ago that we would be soon ready, I mean they aren't stupid, no?
They surely know.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
In article <a2pjpj$fon$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Marc
Fraioli) writes:
What's wrong - you were waiting to beat me up in WSC, too? :)
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>Is this true? I thought WSC was supposed to be the be-all end-all GPL >killer, run a full Le Mans field of 60 cars, etc. If all it can do is >8 players online, it ain't gonna cut it. I hope this information is >incorrect, or all the hype/waiting over WSC has been a waste of breath, >IMHO... > > MarcIn article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (EldredP) writes:
Hey man, I'm pretty sure you've finished ahead of me more than half the
time this IICC season. You did on Sunday anyway...
But yeah, sure, I'd love to beat you up in WSC if I could. ;-)
Marc
Quoted text (12 lines)
> In article <a2pjpj$fon$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Marc > Fraioli) writes: > >>Is this true? I thought WSC was supposed to be the be-all end-all GPL >>killer, run a full Le Mans field of 60 cars, etc. If all it can do is >>8 players online, it ain't gonna cut it. I hope this information is >>incorrect, or all the hype/waiting over WSC has been a waste of breath, >>IMHO... >> >> Marc > > What's wrong - you were waiting to beat me up in WSC, too? :)"Marc Fraioli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a34eg8$84u$[email hidden]...
Whatever, Huttu (and Burke for that matter) will beat us ALL up in WSC if it
ever comes out...
Quoted text (10 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: > > What's wrong - you were waiting to beat me up in WSC, too? :) > > Hey man, I'm pretty sure you've finished ahead of me more than half the > time this IICC season. You did on Sunday anyway... > > But yeah, sure, I'd love to beat you up in WSC if I could. ;-) > > MarcIn article <g0k58.3004$7n.6477@shaw-ty1>, "Rob Adams"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>> But yeah, sure, I'd love to beat you up in WSC if I could. ;-)
>>
>> Marc
>
>Whatever, Huttu (and Burke for that matter) will beat us ALL up in WSC if it
>ever comes out...
I say we pay off Peter's mechanic next race...<g>
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <a34eg8$84u$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Marc
Fraioli) writes:
>Hey man, I'm pretty sure you've finished ahead of me more than half the
>time this IICC season. You did on Sunday anyway...
Oh sure - I beat you with my Lotus compared to your Cooper, and I'm just lucky
that Wormie got in the way...<g>
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (EldredP) writes:
Ok, you guys distract him with a couple Warsteiners, and I'll slip
around the garage and let the air out of his tires or something. Heck,
he might even consider that a fair trade. ;-)
Marc
