It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide
remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" running the
sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sides are not
well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis of geography -
between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarks don't
help the discussion, naturally.
Here's my "two cents:"
1. Comparing road racing and oval racing is like comparing American
football to soccer. They are similar sports, played on similar types of
fields, both use a single ball (of different shape) and the goal is to score
points by moving the ball up the field to a "goal." Past that, they are
night and day to each other, and attempts to apply adjectives to them like
"boring," "lacking skills," etc., is mostly a complete waste of time and
indicative of the writer's complete lack of understanding about them (or
lack of understanding about one of them).
2. The same would be true of motorsports (IMHO). If you follow and
appreciate (meaning = fully understand) road racing, but not oval racing -
then how is it you can make comparisons between the two motorsports that
create these chide comments? I would like to add, the reverse applies if
you follow and appreciate oval racing, but not road racing.
[I would like to add: Nothing about NASCAR racing is "redneck" today.
Certainly, not any more than F1 racing is only about the European "elite
socialites" - both are false terms based on the heritage of the two sports,
and do not apply to them today. - IMHO].
3. I'm not going into a long definition/description of the two forms of
motor racing - but perhaps there is a good website that does this and it
will be useful to have it posted here? I hope somebody can do that. I
would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the race car
driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the driving skills
during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting
strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like a chess
game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race
driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say any of the
skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing in either form
of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: In road
racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skills and
40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is
something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. I don't
know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it is to
me.
4. Whether one personally likes one form of the motorsport over the other,
is mostly just that, personal taste. However, I have found that when
someone gains deeper knowledge and understanding of the "other form" they
don't care for as much.....that tends to change their thoughts about it.
Isn't that just human nature?
5. Statements about one sim or another being "boring" reflect, in my
opinion, only the "type" of sim driver the person is. There are many
different levels of sim drivers in this community. And, I think it would be
reasonable to form some kind of a general statement about the "categories"
along these lines:
**Arcade/Game Racer**: Likes to drive mostly sims that are easy to
drive. Looks for "instant thrills and gratification" when driving and
doesn't really care about racing skills (strategy, racing lines, avoiding
collisions, etc.). Usually drives from the "F2" view.
**Arcade/Sim Racer**: Still likes sims that are mostly easy to drive.
Pays more attention to racing lines and is likely to be turned on by
hotlapping activities. Still doesn't care much about racing strategy or
racing lines, except where they can improve their "flyer" laps for a good
lap time. Primarily doesn't understand the term "racing line" as opposed to
"fastest line" through a road course or oval track. Tends to drive from the
cockpit, but doesn't mind driving from the F2 view if it makes them post a
faster lap time. Brags about their PB's at race tracks.
**Sim Racer**: Doesn't care for sims that are easy to drive (although
still owns a few of them and runs them from time to time for pure fun).
Likes sims that have realistic car physics and are difficult to learn to
drive. Almost always drives from the cockpit view (99% of the time). Still
is less interested in racing strategy, enjoys short races and hotlapping as
their primary sim racing activity. Likes racing online more than offline
against the AI for that reason.
**Serious Sim Racer**: Doesn't keep sims that are easy to drive
installed on their computers (but generally tries them all out when they are
released). Looks for realistic car physics and sims where the race car is
difficult to drive fast over long periods of racing sessions. Generally
doesn't "hotlap" and primarily participates in online league racing where
race strategy is more important than fast laps. Looks at a new sim from the
"total simulation" aspect - meaning, how well does the sim "simulate" that
particular form of racing, or series racing in total. Never drives from
anything but the cockpit view, probably has never even done a lap in the F2
view.
I'm sure these "categories" can be expanded, the definitions expanded and
maybe even sub-categories within each of the four created (levels). I just
wanted to point out that there are different types of sim drivers in this
community...with different aspirations and expectations of what they like or
want in a new racing sim.....based on what type of sim driver they are. I
would also like to point out that you can migrate from one type to another,
and many of us have done that.
So, with this in mind (and giving lots of flexibility to the definitions and
categories I've written) - doesn't make a lot of sense that an "Arcade/Game
Racer" would think that N-2002 (except for the two road courses) is
"boring." On the other hand, a "Serious Sim Racer" would maybe think
something like Viper Racing or even Midtown Madness was totally boring?
Making comments about "boring this" or "unrealistic that" only serve to
categorize the writer. It does not describe the racing sim in any
meaningful way.
Just my two cents (about $3 worth)....sorry for the length, but it seemed
like an important topic?
Regards,
Tom
Notable threadOval versus road racing: is either really boring?
Tom Pabst started a long discussion about the European versus American divide over whether oval or road racing is boring, prompted by reactions to the NR2002 demo. Posters discussed TV coverage, strategy and tyre saving, and the role of car versus driver in F1 and NASCAR. Many said real fans appreciate all forms of racing, though the thread drifted into Schumacher versus Senna arguments and some heated remarks about Southern drivers.
real motorsportcommunity/meta
Automated summary.
I always get a kick out of the comments too :) Try to stay out of it
myself..........but one thing always noticed is how many open wheel fans
slam oval racing..........but how few oval fans slam open wheel
racing....hmmmmm :)
I like, always have, both, in real racing and simming.
-John
Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
> It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide
> remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" runningthe
> sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sides arenot
> well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis ofgeography -
score
sports,
skills
> during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting
> strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like achess
> game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race
> driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say any ofthe
> skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing in eitherform
> of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: In road
> racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skills and
> 40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is
> something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. Idon't
> know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it is to
> me.
>
> 4. Whether one personally likes one form of the motorsport over theother,
be
to
> "fastest line" through a road course or oval track. Tends to drive fromthe
Still
> is less interested in racing strategy, enjoys short races and hotlappingas
> their primary sim racing activity. Likes racing online more than offline
> against the AI for that reason.
>
> **Serious Sim Racer**: Doesn't keep sims that are easy to drive
> installed on their computers (but generally tries them all out when theyare
> released). Looks for realistic car physics and sims where the race car is
> difficult to drive fast over long periods of racing sessions. Generally
> doesn't "hotlap" and primarily participates in online league racing where
> race strategy is more important than fast laps. Looks at a new sim fromthe
> "total simulation" aspect - meaning, how well does the sim "simulate" that
> particular form of racing, or series racing in total. Never drives from
> anything but the cockpit view, probably has never even done a lap in theF2
> view.
>
> I'm sure these "categories" can be expanded, the definitions expanded and
> maybe even sub-categories within each of the four created (levels). Ijust
> wanted to point out that there are different types of sim drivers in this
> community...with different aspirations and expectations of what they likeor
> want in a new racing sim.....based on what type of sim driver they are. I
> would also like to point out that you can migrate from one type toanother,
> and many of us have done that.
>
> So, with this in mind (and giving lots of flexibility to the definitionsand
> categories I've written) - doesn't make a lot of sense that an"Arcade/Game
Quoted text (8 lines)
> between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarks don't > help the discussion, naturally. > > Here's my "two cents:" > > 1. Comparing road racing and oval racing is like comparing American > football to soccer. They are similar sports, played on similar types of > fields, both use a single ball (of different shape) and the goal is toQuoted text (15 lines)
> points by moving the ball up the field to a "goal." Past that, they are > night and day to each other, and attempts to apply adjectives to them like > "boring," "lacking skills," etc., is mostly a complete waste of time and > indicative of the writer's complete lack of understanding about them (or > lack of understanding about one of them). > > 2. The same would be true of motorsports (IMHO). If you follow and > appreciate (meaning = fully understand) road racing, but not oval racing - > then how is it you can make comparisons between the two motorsports that > create these chide comments? I would like to add, the reverse applies if > you follow and appreciate oval racing, but not road racing. > > [I would like to add: Nothing about NASCAR racing is "redneck" today. > Certainly, not any more than F1 racing is only about the European "elite > socialites" - both are false terms based on the heritage of the twoQuoted text (7 lines)
> and do not apply to them today. - IMHO]. > > 3. I'm not going into a long definition/description of the two forms of > motor racing - but perhaps there is a good website that does this and it > will be useful to have it posted here? I hope somebody can do that. I > would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the race car > driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the drivingQuoted text (8 lines)
> is mostly just that, personal taste. However, I have found that when > someone gains deeper knowledge and understanding of the "other form" they > don't care for as much.....that tends to change their thoughts about it. > Isn't that just human nature? > > 5. Statements about one sim or another being "boring" reflect, in my > opinion, only the "type" of sim driver the person is. There are many > different levels of sim drivers in this community. And, I think it wouldQuoted text (13 lines)
> reasonable to form some kind of a general statement about the "categories" > along these lines: > > **Arcade/Game Racer**: Likes to drive mostly sims that are easy to > drive. Looks for "instant thrills and gratification" when driving and > doesn't really care about racing skills (strategy, racing lines, avoiding > collisions, etc.). Usually drives from the "F2" view. > > **Arcade/Sim Racer**: Still likes sims that are mostly easy to drive. > Pays more attention to racing lines and is likely to be turned on by > hotlapping activities. Still doesn't care much about racing strategy or > racing lines, except where they can improve their "flyer" laps for a good > lap time. Primarily doesn't understand the term "racing line" as opposedQuoted text (7 lines)
> cockpit, but doesn't mind driving from the F2 view if it makes them post a > faster lap time. Brags about their PB's at race tracks. > > **Sim Racer**: Doesn't care for sims that are easy to drive (although > still owns a few of them and runs them from time to time for pure fun). > Likes sims that have realistic car physics and are difficult to learn to > drive. Almost always drives from the cockpit view (99% of the time).Quoted text (19 lines)
> Racer" would think that N-2002 (except for the two road courses) is > "boring." On the other hand, a "Serious Sim Racer" would maybe think > something like Viper Racing or even Midtown Madness was totally boring? > > Making comments about "boring this" or "unrealistic that" only serve to > categorize the writer. It does not describe the racing sim in any > meaningful way. > > Just my two cents (about $3 worth)....sorry for the length, but it seemed > like an important topic? > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > >Tom, I also notice conflicts between oval and road racing. I am not
puzzled
by this. I started out as a fan of open wheel midgets and their big
brothers
the AAA Champ cars that ran on the dirt miles -- Syracuse, Langhorne,
and
the holy of holies -- IMS.
As a result I went all through high school having endless arguments with
a couple
of friends who loved road racing -- this was the era of Fangio and Moss.
One of
these guys raced at Sebring I believe and then ended up driving
modifieds at the
old Shanangra-La (sp?) 1/2 mile asphalt of all things.
My accepting of road racing took about 10 seconds when on Friday the 6th
of October
1961 I walked up to the fence that is opposite the pits at the Glen
(right where
the road that crosses the track and heads up the hill behind the pits
was located)
and I see a car rolling over just above the 90 and some kind of lump is
left on the
track. That lump gets up and walks away! It was Olivier Gendebien. Right
there I knew
that all racing is the same to me in the way that it counts for me.
Brave folks driving
fast beautiful 'noisy' cars.
arcman
Tom Pabst wrote:
<snip>
> Regards,
>
> Tom
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide > remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" running the > sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sides are not > well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis of geography - > between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarks don't > help the discussion, naturally. >Good Lord...
I'm an oval racer and road racer. I don't think either is boring although I
can certainly understand how Europeans can get the idea that oval racing is
boring when all they see is Winston Cup and ASCAR pretty boys who care more
about points and cash than actual racing, running around boring 1.5 Las
Vegas clones for four hours at a time. It's unfortunate they don't get to
see what real stock car racing is about in the ASA, USAR, regional NASCAR
touring series', etc.. It's also unfortunate that so many American oval
racing fans are prejudiced about road racing. I'd love to see more oval
series' running maybe 20% to 40% road courses in addition to perhaps 70%
short ovals and an occasional 1-mile+ speedway for special events.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Morgan Vincent Wooten
System Specs:
http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/m/v/mvwooten/system.txt
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
> It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide
> remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" running
the
> sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sides are
not
> well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis of
geography -
> between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarks don't
> help the discussion, naturally.
>
> Here's my "two cents:"
>
> 1. Comparing road racing and oval racing is like comparing American
> football to soccer. They are similar sports, played on similar types of
> fields, both use a single ball (of different shape) and the goal is to
score
> points by moving the ball up the field to a "goal." Past that, they are
> night and day to each other, and attempts to apply adjectives to them like
> "boring," "lacking skills," etc., is mostly a complete waste of time and
> indicative of the writer's complete lack of understanding about them (or
> lack of understanding about one of them).
>
> 2. The same would be true of motorsports (IMHO). If you follow and
> appreciate (meaning = fully understand) road racing, but not oval racing -
> then how is it you can make comparisons between the two motorsports that
> create these chide comments? I would like to add, the reverse applies if
> you follow and appreciate oval racing, but not road racing.
>
> [I would like to add: Nothing about NASCAR racing is "redneck" today.
> Certainly, not any more than F1 racing is only about the European "elite
> socialites" - both are false terms based on the heritage of the two
sports,
> and do not apply to them today. - IMHO].
>
> 3. I'm not going into a long definition/description of the two forms of
> motor racing - but perhaps there is a good website that does this and it
> will be useful to have it posted here? I hope somebody can do that. I
> would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the race car
> driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the driving
skills
> during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting
> strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like a
chess
> game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race
> driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say any of
the
> skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing in either
form
> of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: In road
> racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skills and
> 40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is
> something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. I
don't
> know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it is to
> me.
>
> 4. Whether one personally likes one form of the motorsport over the
other,
> is mostly just that, personal taste. However, I have found that when
> someone gains deeper knowledge and understanding of the "other form" they
> don't care for as much.....that tends to change their thoughts about it.
> Isn't that just human nature?
>
> 5. Statements about one sim or another being "boring" reflect, in my
> opinion, only the "type" of sim driver the person is. There are many
> different levels of sim drivers in this community. And, I think it would
be
> reasonable to form some kind of a general statement about the "categories"
> along these lines:
>
> **Arcade/Game Racer**: Likes to drive mostly sims that are easy to
> drive. Looks for "instant thrills and gratification" when driving and
> doesn't really care about racing skills (strategy, racing lines, avoiding
> collisions, etc.). Usually drives from the "F2" view.
>
> **Arcade/Sim Racer**: Still likes sims that are mostly easy to drive.
> Pays more attention to racing lines and is likely to be turned on by
> hotlapping activities. Still doesn't care much about racing strategy or
> racing lines, except where they can improve their "flyer" laps for a good
> lap time. Primarily doesn't understand the term "racing line" as opposed
to
> "fastest line" through a road course or oval track. Tends to drive from
the
> cockpit, but doesn't mind driving from the F2 view if it makes them post a
> faster lap time. Brags about their PB's at race tracks.
>
> **Sim Racer**: Doesn't care for sims that are easy to drive (although
> still owns a few of them and runs them from time to time for pure fun).
> Likes sims that have realistic car physics and are difficult to learn to
> drive. Almost always drives from the cockpit view (99% of the time).
Still
> is less interested in racing strategy, enjoys short races and hotlapping
as
> their primary sim racing activity. Likes racing online more than offline
> against the AI for that reason.
>
> **Serious Sim Racer**: Doesn't keep sims that are easy to drive
> installed on their computers (but generally tries them all out when they
are
> released). Looks for realistic car physics and sims where the race car is
> difficult to drive fast over long periods of racing sessions. Generally
> doesn't "hotlap" and primarily participates in online league racing where
> race strategy is more important than fast laps. Looks at a new sim from
the
> "total simulation" aspect - meaning, how well does the sim "simulate" that
> particular form of racing, or series racing in total. Never drives from
> anything but the cockpit view, probably has never even done a lap in the
F2
> view.
>
> I'm sure these "categories" can be expanded, the definitions expanded and
> maybe even sub-categories within each of the four created (levels). I
just
> wanted to point out that there are different types of sim drivers in this
> community...with different aspirations and expectations of what they like
or
> want in a new racing sim.....based on what type of sim driver they are. I
> would also like to point out that you can migrate from one type to
another,
> and many of us have done that.
>
> So, with this in mind (and giving lots of flexibility to the definitions
and
> categories I've written) - doesn't make a lot of sense that an
"Arcade/Game
> Racer" would think that N-2002 (except for the two road courses) is
> "boring." On the other hand, a "Serious Sim Racer" would maybe think
> something like Viper Racing or even Midtown Madness was totally boring?
>
> Making comments about "boring this" or "unrealistic that" only serve to
> categorize the writer. It does not describe the racing sim in any
> meaningful way.
>
> Just my two cents (about $3 worth)....sorry for the length, but it seemed
> like an important topic?
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
As a European (UK) and speaking personally, I have a great respect for all
forms of motor racing. Not least because it is a sport where one can get
seriously injured or killed.
It is sad that despite sattelite tv in the UK we do not get much chance to
see Nascar, Cart or IRL etc. So it is a great unknown to the average UK
lover of ms. Unfortunately there are too many people who will dismiss the
quality and skills of these sports because of the lack of TV coverage,
assuming that tv companies would only cover worthwhile programs.(JOKE).
Still, having attempted to play Nascar 4 and the new demo has only deepened
my admiration for the real drivers who participate in this scary (3 or 4
abreast at 200+ on a corner) sport. And my attempts at the short oval tracks
is a bit of a joke. And yet GPL which seems to most to be the REAL sim I do
well at.
I probably would not agree with all that Tom said in the original post but I
think the flavour of it rings true. BTW I would not buy an arcade racer if
my life depended upon it!
Just a point, in Nascar you can draught and pass, modern day F1 seems to
have lost the ability here. Wouldn't it be great to see the wings removed
from F1 cars?
Alan
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
<Snip a lot! Some good, some bad.>
Personally I don't enjoy watching or driving on Ovaloid tracks. Could very well
be because I have never, ever watched a complete race and have only seen 15 min.
summeries, which don't tell you anything at all about the race. Bad tv coverage
is the reason. I have tried it once or twice in GPL but it didn't tickle my
fancy. Just a matter of personal opinion,- I don't like it but I don't slam
those who do.
Regarding your categories of simmers/gamers, I think you are going at it in the
wrong way by lumping people in those categories. I think a better way of looking
at it would be to compare it to eg. a football fan. You have your casual
watchers, your interested watcher, your serious fans, and the grognards.
Regardless of which way you split the groups, there will be some in each group
who fancies the passing game, some like the defensive game, some enjoy the
kicking game, some are thrilled by a good run, etc. In a similar way, you can
have all types of simmer/gamers who like to race other humans, some who enjoy
hotlapping, some who fancy short races, some who like ovals better than road
courses, etc. See what I mean?
Cheers,
Jens
Tom, man, with all respect, I have some serious comments about
what you wrote.
In most worshiped for off road racing, it isn't driver who wins, but
the constructor of silver machine. Driver wins only when is in most
powerfull car. On the other hand, in oval racing you the same driver won
7 times championship with all the different makes. I mean Mikka Hakinnen
will again win championship only if he again sit in most powerfull car.
I must tell my story again. I'm European who was watching F1 since
1973, and I can tell you, when cars are equal, suddenly you see that
difference in driving skill is actually small amongst the fastest. In that
situation strategy become more important. I know, I saw it in 70's.
Problem with F1 is that there is no equality. People who watch that
don't watch racing, but procession of silver expensive machines. They
are elitist, but not for racing. It isn't strange that most famous F1 race
is
in money mekka. F1 has so big audience because money has biger audience
than racing. They don't want to bother themselfs with racing. F1 world
with their point system and their rules, is ajusted for that kind of
audience.
You know two names, and this is enough for you to be expert in F1. Add
another name, and it will be too much for them to remember, and money
will go somewhere else.
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
> Road racing is much more about the race car
> driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the drivingskills
> during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting
> strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like achess
> game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race
> driving skills than pit crew and strategy.
Generally speaking american sports are more "show" than european ones...the
rules, the format (TV), the players, everything is more "show" in the
states....good or bad is another question...
On top of this american football is a spinoff from rugby, not football....
Just like baseball is a spinoff from cricket...
Basketball is the only "real" american sport, maybe that's why you're so
good at it...
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
> It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide
> remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" runningthe
> sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sides arenot
> well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis ofgeography -
score
sports,
skills
> during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting
> strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like achess
> game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race
> driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say any ofthe
> skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing in eitherform
> of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: In road
> racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skills and
> 40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is
> something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. Idon't
> know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it is to
> me.
>
> 4. Whether one personally likes one form of the motorsport over theother,
be
to
> "fastest line" through a road course or oval track. Tends to drive fromthe
Still
> is less interested in racing strategy, enjoys short races and hotlappingas
> their primary sim racing activity. Likes racing online more than offline
> against the AI for that reason.
>
> **Serious Sim Racer**: Doesn't keep sims that are easy to drive
> installed on their computers (but generally tries them all out when theyare
> released). Looks for realistic car physics and sims where the race car is
> difficult to drive fast over long periods of racing sessions. Generally
> doesn't "hotlap" and primarily participates in online league racing where
> race strategy is more important than fast laps. Looks at a new sim fromthe
> "total simulation" aspect - meaning, how well does the sim "simulate" that
> particular form of racing, or series racing in total. Never drives from
> anything but the cockpit view, probably has never even done a lap in theF2
> view.
>
> I'm sure these "categories" can be expanded, the definitions expanded and
> maybe even sub-categories within each of the four created (levels). Ijust
> wanted to point out that there are different types of sim drivers in this
> community...with different aspirations and expectations of what they likeor
> want in a new racing sim.....based on what type of sim driver they are. I
> would also like to point out that you can migrate from one type toanother,
> and many of us have done that.
>
> So, with this in mind (and giving lots of flexibility to the definitionsand
> categories I've written) - doesn't make a lot of sense that an"Arcade/Game
Quoted text (8 lines)
> between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarks don't > help the discussion, naturally. > > Here's my "two cents:" > > 1. Comparing road racing and oval racing is like comparing American > football to soccer. They are similar sports, played on similar types of > fields, both use a single ball (of different shape) and the goal is toQuoted text (15 lines)
> points by moving the ball up the field to a "goal." Past that, they are > night and day to each other, and attempts to apply adjectives to them like > "boring," "lacking skills," etc., is mostly a complete waste of time and > indicative of the writer's complete lack of understanding about them (or > lack of understanding about one of them). > > 2. The same would be true of motorsports (IMHO). If you follow and > appreciate (meaning = fully understand) road racing, but not oval racing - > then how is it you can make comparisons between the two motorsports that > create these chide comments? I would like to add, the reverse applies if > you follow and appreciate oval racing, but not road racing. > > [I would like to add: Nothing about NASCAR racing is "redneck" today. > Certainly, not any more than F1 racing is only about the European "elite > socialites" - both are false terms based on the heritage of the twoQuoted text (7 lines)
> and do not apply to them today. - IMHO]. > > 3. I'm not going into a long definition/description of the two forms of > motor racing - but perhaps there is a good website that does this and it > will be useful to have it posted here? I hope somebody can do that. I > would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the race car > driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the drivingQuoted text (8 lines)
> is mostly just that, personal taste. However, I have found that when > someone gains deeper knowledge and understanding of the "other form" they > don't care for as much.....that tends to change their thoughts about it. > Isn't that just human nature? > > 5. Statements about one sim or another being "boring" reflect, in my > opinion, only the "type" of sim driver the person is. There are many > different levels of sim drivers in this community. And, I think it wouldQuoted text (13 lines)
> reasonable to form some kind of a general statement about the "categories" > along these lines: > > **Arcade/Game Racer**: Likes to drive mostly sims that are easy to > drive. Looks for "instant thrills and gratification" when driving and > doesn't really care about racing skills (strategy, racing lines, avoiding > collisions, etc.). Usually drives from the "F2" view. > > **Arcade/Sim Racer**: Still likes sims that are mostly easy to drive. > Pays more attention to racing lines and is likely to be turned on by > hotlapping activities. Still doesn't care much about racing strategy or > racing lines, except where they can improve their "flyer" laps for a good > lap time. Primarily doesn't understand the term "racing line" as opposedQuoted text (7 lines)
> cockpit, but doesn't mind driving from the F2 view if it makes them post a > faster lap time. Brags about their PB's at race tracks. > > **Sim Racer**: Doesn't care for sims that are easy to drive (although > still owns a few of them and runs them from time to time for pure fun). > Likes sims that have realistic car physics and are difficult to learn to > drive. Almost always drives from the cockpit view (99% of the time).Quoted text (19 lines)
> Racer" would think that N-2002 (except for the two road courses) is > "boring." On the other hand, a "Serious Sim Racer" would maybe think > something like Viper Racing or even Midtown Madness was totally boring? > > Making comments about "boring this" or "unrealistic that" only serve to > categorize the writer. It does not describe the racing sim in any > meaningful way. > > Just my two cents (about $3 worth)....sorry for the length, but it seemed > like an important topic? > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > > Sorry for bad English. It wa sto be " In most worshiped form of
road racing"
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0obmd$92mu$[email hidden]...
> In most worshiped for off road racing, it isn't driver who wins,but
> the constructor of silver machine.
This is why we need a CART sim. =) People who had roadies can hotlap
Michigan for awhile, people who hate ovals can bang off the walls at
Long Beach.
Seriously, I dunno why no one is cashing in on a CART sim, it wouldn't
sell as well as NASCAR but you know every single racing sim fan would
want it. It could also be one of those rare instances where a sim
attracts more fans to the sport it's simulating.
Jason
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted text (156 lines)
> I always get a kick out of the comments too :) Try to stay out of it > myself..........but one thing always noticed is how many open wheel fans > slam oval racing..........but how few oval fans slam open wheel > racing....hmmmmm :) > > I like, always have, both, in real racing and simming. > > -John > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54... > > It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide > > remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" running > the > > sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sides are > not > > well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis of > geography - > > between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarks don't > > help the discussion, naturally. > > > > Here's my "two cents:" > > > > 1. Comparing road racing and oval racing is like comparing American > > football to soccer. They are similar sports, played on similar types of > > fields, both use a single ball (of different shape) and the goal is to > score > > points by moving the ball up the field to a "goal." Past that, they are > > night and day to each other, and attempts to apply adjectives to them like > > "boring," "lacking skills," etc., is mostly a complete waste of time and > > indicative of the writer's complete lack of understanding about them (or > > lack of understanding about one of them). > > > > 2. The same would be true of motorsports (IMHO). If you follow and > > appreciate (meaning = fully understand) road racing, but not oval racing - > > then how is it you can make comparisons between the two motorsports that > > create these chide comments? I would like to add, the reverse applies if > > you follow and appreciate oval racing, but not road racing. > > > > [I would like to add: Nothing about NASCAR racing is "redneck" today. > > Certainly, not any more than F1 racing is only about the European "elite > > socialites" - both are false terms based on the heritage of the two > sports, > > and do not apply to them today. - IMHO]. > > > > 3. I'm not going into a long definition/description of the two forms of > > motor racing - but perhaps there is a good website that does this and it > > will be useful to have it posted here? I hope somebody can do that. I > > would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the race car > > driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the driving > skills > > during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting > > strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like a > chess > > game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race > > driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say any of > the > > skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing in either > form > > of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: In road > > racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skills and > > 40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is > > something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. I > don't > > know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it is to > > me. > > > > 4. Whether one personally likes one form of the motorsport over the > other, > > is mostly just that, personal taste. However, I have found that when > > someone gains deeper knowledge and understanding of the "other form" they > > don't care for as much.....that tends to change their thoughts about it. > > Isn't that just human nature? > > > > 5. Statements about one sim or another being "boring" reflect, in my > > opinion, only the "type" of sim driver the person is. There are many > > different levels of sim drivers in this community. And, I think it would > be > > reasonable to form some kind of a general statement about the "categories" > > along these lines: > > > > **Arcade/Game Racer**: Likes to drive mostly sims that are easy to > > drive. Looks for "instant thrills and gratification" when driving and > > doesn't really care about racing skills (strategy, racing lines, avoiding > > collisions, etc.). Usually drives from the "F2" view. > > > > **Arcade/Sim Racer**: Still likes sims that are mostly easy to drive. > > Pays more attention to racing lines and is likely to be turned on by > > hotlapping activities. Still doesn't care much about racing strategy or > > racing lines, except where they can improve their "flyer" laps for a good > > lap time. Primarily doesn't understand the term "racing line" as opposed > to > > "fastest line" through a road course or oval track. Tends to drive from > the > > cockpit, but doesn't mind driving from the F2 view if it makes them post a > > faster lap time. Brags about their PB's at race tracks. > > > > **Sim Racer**: Doesn't care for sims that are easy to drive (although > > still owns a few of them and runs them from time to time for pure fun). > > Likes sims that have realistic car physics and are difficult to learn to > > drive. Almost always drives from the cockpit view (99% of the time). > Still > > is less interested in racing strategy, enjoys short races and hotlapping > as > > their primary sim racing activity. Likes racing online more than offline > > against the AI for that reason. > > > > **Serious Sim Racer**: Doesn't keep sims that are easy to drive > > installed on their computers (but generally tries them all out when they > are > > released). Looks for realistic car physics and sims where the race car is > > difficult to drive fast over long periods of racing sessions. Generally > > doesn't "hotlap" and primarily participates in online league racing where > > race strategy is more important than fast laps. Looks at a new sim from > the > > "total simulation" aspect - meaning, how well does the sim "simulate" that > > particular form of racing, or series racing in total. Never drives from > > anything but the cockpit view, probably has never even done a lap in the > F2 > > view. > > > > I'm sure these "categories" can be expanded, the definitions expanded and > > maybe even sub-categories within each of the four created (levels). I > just > > wanted to point out that there are different types of sim drivers in this > > community...with different aspirations and expectations of what they like > or > > want in a new racing sim.....based on what type of sim driver they are. I > > would also like to point out that you can migrate from one type to > another, > > and many of us have done that. > > > > So, with this in mind (and giving lots of flexibility to the definitions > and > > categories I've written) - doesn't make a lot of sense that an > "Arcade/Game > > Racer" would think that N-2002 (except for the two road courses) is > > "boring." On the other hand, a "Serious Sim Racer" would maybe think > > something like Viper Racing or even Midtown Madness was totally boring? > > > > Making comments about "boring this" or "unrealistic that" only serve to > > categorize the writer. It does not describe the racing sim in any > > meaningful way. > > > > Just my two cents (about $3 worth)....sorry for the length, but it seemed > > like an important topic? > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > >
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
> It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide
> remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom"running the
> sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sidesare not
> well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis ofgeography -
> between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarksdon't
> help the discussion, naturally.
It's a lot of the NIH symptom (Not Invented Here).
Oval racing is mainly in endurance, drafting, fuel strategy,
and finding the setup for the proper racing line. These
aspects aren't exactly "obvious" to non-fans.
Similarly, road-racing (Grand Prix) is about having good
endurance, fuel strategy, knowing what corners to pass,
and so on. Those aren't exactly obvious to non-fans either.
To each their own. I enjoy ALL FORMS of racing (heck
I like to watch horse racing too).
--KC
CART
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> I always get a kick out of the comments too :) Try to stay out of it
> myself..........but one thing always noticed is how many open wheel
> fans slam oval racing..........but how few oval fans slam open wheel
> racing....hmmmmm :)
>
> -John
Interesting, in my experience the reverse is true :o)
cheers
John
With a pinch of DIRT for flavor!
arcman
TRUSRS85 wrote:
>
> CART
I'm tending to think of the "slamming" as being equally divided between the
two.....just depends on what day you come here.
TP
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
like
> > "boring," "lacking skills," etc., is mostly a complete waste of time and
> > indicative of the writer's complete lack of understanding about them (or
> > lack of understanding about one of them).
> >
> > 2. The same would be true of motorsports (IMHO). If you follow and
> > appreciate (meaning = fully understand) road racing, but not ovalracing -
> > then how is it you can make comparisons between the two motorsports that
> > create these chide comments? I would like to add, the reverse appliesif
car
road
> > racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skillsand
> > 40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is
> > something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. I
> don't
> > know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it isto
> > me.
> >
> > 4. Whether one personally likes one form of the motorsport over the
> other,
> > is mostly just that, personal taste. However, I have found that when
> > someone gains deeper knowledge and understanding of the "other form"they
> > don't care for as much.....that tends to change their thoughts about it.
> > Isn't that just human nature?
> >
> > 5. Statements about one sim or another being "boring" reflect, in my
> > opinion, only the "type" of sim driver the person is. There are many
> > different levels of sim drivers in this community. And, I think itwould
> be
> > reasonable to form some kind of a general statement about the"categories"
> > along these lines:
> >
> > **Arcade/Game Racer**: Likes to drive mostly sims that are easy to
> > drive. Looks for "instant thrills and gratification" when driving and
> > doesn't really care about racing skills (strategy, racing lines,avoiding
> > collisions, etc.). Usually drives from the "F2" view.
> >
> > **Arcade/Sim Racer**: Still likes sims that are mostly easy todrive.
> > Pays more attention to racing lines and is likely to be turned on by
> > hotlapping activities. Still doesn't care much about racing strategy or
> > racing lines, except where they can improve their "flyer" laps for agood
> > lap time. Primarily doesn't understand the term "racing line" asopposed
> to
> > "fastest line" through a road course or oval track. Tends to drive from
> the
> > cockpit, but doesn't mind driving from the F2 view if it makes them posta
> > faster lap time. Brags about their PB's at race tracks.
> >
> > **Sim Racer**: Doesn't care for sims that are easy to drive(although
offline
> > against the AI for that reason.
> >
> > **Serious Sim Racer**: Doesn't keep sims that are easy to drive
> > installed on their computers (but generally tries them all out when they
> are
> > released). Looks for realistic car physics and sims where the race caris
> > difficult to drive fast over long periods of racing sessions. Generally
> > doesn't "hotlap" and primarily participates in online league racingwhere
> > race strategy is more important than fast laps. Looks at a new sim from
> the
> > "total simulation" aspect - meaning, how well does the sim "simulate"that
> > particular form of racing, or series racing in total. Never drives from
> > anything but the cockpit view, probably has never even done a lap in the
> F2
> > view.
> >
> > I'm sure these "categories" can be expanded, the definitions expandedand
> > maybe even sub-categories within each of the four created (levels). I
> just
> > wanted to point out that there are different types of sim drivers inthis
> > community...with different aspirations and expectations of what theylike
> or
> > want in a new racing sim.....based on what type of sim driver they are.I
seemed
Quoted text (30 lines)
> I always get a kick out of the comments too :) Try to stay out of it > myself..........but one thing always noticed is how many open wheel fans > slam oval racing..........but how few oval fans slam open wheel > racing....hmmmmm :) > > I like, always have, both, in real racing and simming. > > -John > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54... > > It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide > > remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" running > the > > sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sides are > not > > well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis of > geography - > > between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarks don't > > help the discussion, naturally. > > > > Here's my "two cents:" > > > > 1. Comparing road racing and oval racing is like comparing American > > football to soccer. They are similar sports, played on similar types of > > fields, both use a single ball (of different shape) and the goal is to > score > > points by moving the ball up the field to a "goal." Past that, they are > > night and day to each other, and attempts to apply adjectives to themQuoted text (12 lines)
> > you follow and appreciate oval racing, but not road racing. > > > > [I would like to add: Nothing about NASCAR racing is "redneck" today. > > Certainly, not any more than F1 racing is only about the European "elite > > socialites" - both are false terms based on the heritage of the two > sports, > > and do not apply to them today. - IMHO]. > > > > 3. I'm not going into a long definition/description of the two forms of > > motor racing - but perhaps there is a good website that does this and it > > will be useful to have it posted here? I hope somebody can do that. I > > would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the raceQuoted text (11 lines)
> > driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the driving > skills > > during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting > > strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like a > chess > > game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race > > driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say any of > the > > skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing in either > form > > of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: InQuoted text (7 lines)
> > still owns a few of them and runs them from time to time for pure fun). > > Likes sims that have realistic car physics and are difficult to learn to > > drive. Almost always drives from the cockpit view (99% of the time). > Still > > is less interested in racing strategy, enjoys short races and hotlapping > as > > their primary sim racing activity. Likes racing online more thanQuoted text (17 lines)
> > would also like to point out that you can migrate from one type to > another, > > and many of us have done that. > > > > So, with this in mind (and giving lots of flexibility to the definitions > and > > categories I've written) - doesn't make a lot of sense that an > "Arcade/Game > > Racer" would think that N-2002 (except for the two road courses) is > > "boring." On the other hand, a "Serious Sim Racer" would maybe think > > something like Viper Racing or even Midtown Madness was totally boring? > > > > Making comments about "boring this" or "unrealistic that" only serve to > > categorize the writer. It does not describe the racing sim in any > > meaningful way. > > > > Just my two cents (about $3 worth)....sorry for the length, but itQuoted text (12 lines)
> > like an important topic? > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > >Great story....nice images you created from your memory. I have to agree
with you....if you love racing, you love it all.
How much more respect could be given to the sport than to realize Dale
Earnhardt thought it was much harder to drive the Corvette (in the Rolex
24-Hour last year) at Daytona than his WC car (at the same track). And, how
he studied and questioned his "road racing" teammates, particularly
O'Connell, about his "road racing skills" and was like a complete "student
of the sport" for the entire weekend. There's a very nice piece on
Speedvision being shown this week, highlights of the Corvette Team's ALMS
season, including details of their race at the Rolex 24-Hour with Dale and
Jr. At a couple places in the show, it will be hard to not choke up if you
are a NASCAR fan (or even....just a racing fan).
Tom
"Christopher G Rossie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
the
> > sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sides arenot
> > well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis ofgeography -
Quoted text (36 lines)
> Tom, I also notice conflicts between oval and road racing. I am not > puzzled > by this. I started out as a fan of open wheel midgets and their big > brothers > the AAA Champ cars that ran on the dirt miles -- Syracuse, Langhorne, > and > the holy of holies -- IMS. > > As a result I went all through high school having endless arguments with > a couple > of friends who loved road racing -- this was the era of Fangio and Moss. > One of > these guys raced at Sebring I believe and then ended up driving > modifieds at the > old Shanangra-La (sp?) 1/2 mile asphalt of all things. > > My accepting of road racing took about 10 seconds when on Friday the 6th > of October > 1961 I walked up to the fence that is opposite the pits at the Glen > (right where > the road that crosses the track and heads up the hill behind the pits > was located) > and I see a car rolling over just above the 90 and some kind of lump is > left on the > track. That lump gets up and walks away! It was Olivier Gendebien. Right > there I knew > that all racing is the same to me in the way that it counts for me. > Brave folks driving > fast beautiful 'noisy' cars. > > arcman > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide > > remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" runningQuoted text (7 lines)
> > between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarks don't > > help the discussion, naturally. > > > <snip> > > Regards, > > > > TomOf course I see what you mean, Jens. You made my point, just in a different
way....but no less profound.
Tom
"Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:lmOX7.5340$[email hidden]...
> "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
> <Snip a lot! Some good, some bad.>
>
> Personally I don't enjoy watching or driving on Ovaloid tracks. Could verywell
> be because I have never, ever watched a complete race and have only seen15 min.
> summeries, which don't tell you anything at all about the race. Bad tvcoverage
> is the reason. I have tried it once or twice in GPL but it didn't ticklemy
> fancy. Just a matter of personal opinion,- I don't like it but I don'tslam
> those who do.
>
> Regarding your categories of simmers/gamers, I think you are going at itin the
> wrong way by lumping people in those categories. I think a better way oflooking
> at it would be to compare it to eg. a football fan. You have your casual
> watchers, your interested watcher, your serious fans, and the grognards.
> Regardless of which way you split the groups, there will be some in eachgroup
> who fancies the passing game, some like the defensive game, some enjoy the
> kicking game, some are thrilled by a good run, etc. In a similar way, youcan
> have all types of simmer/gamers who like to race other humans, some whoenjoy
> hotlapping, some who fancy short races, some who like ovals better thanroad
> courses, etc. See what I mean?
>
> Cheers,
> Jens
>
>
Damm looked like a $100,000 to me!! :)
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
| Here's my "two cents:"<znipped a hailuva lot>
| Regards,
|
| Tom
|
Damm looked like a $100,000 to me!! :)
| Here's my "two cents:" <znipped a hailuva lot>
| Regards,
|
| Tom
|
C'mon Thom....I tried to make it short....lol.. Don't I get credit for the
"try?" Its the shortest post I've made in months (besides this
one)....lol..
TP
"Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:A%QX7.339736$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (12 lines)
> Damm looked like a $100,000 to me!! :) > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54... > | Here's my "two cents:" > <znipped a hailuva lot> > | Regards, > | > | Tom > | > > Oh, I wasn't speaking of necessarily just here, but you're right.
-John
Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:rQQX7.30039$uM.259858@rwcrnsc54...
> I'm tending to think of the "slamming" as being equally divided betweenthe
running
> > the
> > > sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sidesare
> > not
> > > well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis of
> > geography -
> > > between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarksdon't
> > > help the discussion, naturally.
> > >
> > > Here's my "two cents:"
> > >
> > > 1. Comparing road racing and oval racing is like comparing American
> > > football to soccer. They are similar sports, played on similar typesof
> > > fields, both use a single ball (of different shape) and the goal is to
> > score
> > > points by moving the ball up the field to a "goal." Past that, theyare
> > > night and day to each other, and attempts to apply adjectives to them
> like
> > > "boring," "lacking skills," etc., is mostly a complete waste of timeand
> > > indicative of the writer's complete lack of understanding about them(or
> > > lack of understanding about one of them).
> > >
> > > 2. The same would be true of motorsports (IMHO). If you follow and
> > > appreciate (meaning = fully understand) road racing, but not oval
> racing -
> > > then how is it you can make comparisons between the two motorsportsthat
> > > create these chide comments? I would like to add, the reverseapplies
> if
> > > you follow and appreciate oval racing, but not road racing.
> > >
> > > [I would like to add: Nothing about NASCAR racing is "redneck" today.
> > > Certainly, not any more than F1 racing is only about the European"elite
> > > socialites" - both are false terms based on the heritage of the two
> > sports,
> > > and do not apply to them today. - IMHO].
> > >
> > > 3. I'm not going into a long definition/description of the two formsof
> > > motor racing - but perhaps there is a good website that does this andit
> > > will be useful to have it posted here? I hope somebody can do that.I
of
> > the
> > > skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing ineither
it.
to
or
> > > racing lines, except where they can improve their "flyer" laps for a
> good
> > > lap time. Primarily doesn't understand the term "racing line" as
> opposed
> > to
> > > "fastest line" through a road course or oval track. Tends to drivefrom
> > the
> > > cockpit, but doesn't mind driving from the F2 view if it makes thempost
> a
> > > faster lap time. Brags about their PB's at race tracks.
> > >
> > > **Sim Racer**: Doesn't care for sims that are easy to drive
> (although
> > > still owns a few of them and runs them from time to time for purefun).
> > > Likes sims that have realistic car physics and are difficult to learnto
> > > drive. Almost always drives from the cockpit view (99% of the time).
> > Still
> > > is less interested in racing strategy, enjoys short races andhotlapping
they
> > are
> > > released). Looks for realistic car physics and sims where the racecar
> is
> > > difficult to drive fast over long periods of racing sessions.Generally
> > > doesn't "hotlap" and primarily participates in online league racing
> where
> > > race strategy is more important than fast laps. Looks at a new simfrom
> > the
> > > "total simulation" aspect - meaning, how well does the sim "simulate"
> that
> > > particular form of racing, or series racing in total. Never drivesfrom
> > > anything but the cockpit view, probably has never even done a lap inthe
are.
> I
> > > would also like to point out that you can migrate from one type to
> > another,
> > > and many of us have done that.
> > >
> > > So, with this in mind (and giving lots of flexibility to thedefinitions
> > and
> > > categories I've written) - doesn't make a lot of sense that an
> > "Arcade/Game
> > > Racer" would think that N-2002 (except for the two road courses) is
> > > "boring." On the other hand, a "Serious Sim Racer" would maybe think
> > > something like Viper Racing or even Midtown Madness was totallyboring?
> > >
> > > Making comments about "boring this" or "unrealistic that" only serveto
Quoted text (21 lines)
> two.....just depends on what day you come here. > > TP > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I always get a kick out of the comments too :) Try to stay out of it > > myself..........but one thing always noticed is how many open wheel fans > > slam oval racing..........but how few oval fans slam open wheel > > racing....hmmmmm :) > > > > I like, always have, both, in real racing and simming. > > > > -John > > > > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54... > > > It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide > > > remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom"Quoted text (9 lines)
> > > would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the race > car > > > driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the driving > > skills > > > during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting > > > strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like a > > chess > > > game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race > > > driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say anyQuoted text (18 lines)
> > form > > > of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: In > road > > > racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skills > and > > > 40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is > > > something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. I > > don't > > > know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it is > to > > > me. > > > > > > 4. Whether one personally likes one form of the motorsport over the > > other, > > > is mostly just that, personal taste. However, I have found that when > > > someone gains deeper knowledge and understanding of the "other form" > they > > > don't care for as much.....that tends to change their thoughts aboutQuoted text (12 lines)
> > > Isn't that just human nature? > > > > > > 5. Statements about one sim or another being "boring" reflect, in my > > > opinion, only the "type" of sim driver the person is. There are many > > > different levels of sim drivers in this community. And, I think it > would > > be > > > reasonable to form some kind of a general statement about the > "categories" > > > along these lines: > > > > > > **Arcade/Game Racer**: Likes to drive mostly sims that are easyQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > drive. Looks for "instant thrills and gratification" when driving and > > > doesn't really care about racing skills (strategy, racing lines, > avoiding > > > collisions, etc.). Usually drives from the "F2" view. > > > > > > **Arcade/Sim Racer**: Still likes sims that are mostly easy to > drive. > > > Pays more attention to racing lines and is likely to be turned on by > > > hotlapping activities. Still doesn't care much about racing strategyQuoted text (7 lines)
> > as > > > their primary sim racing activity. Likes racing online more than > offline > > > against the AI for that reason. > > > > > > **Serious Sim Racer**: Doesn't keep sims that are easy to drive > > > installed on their computers (but generally tries them all out whenQuoted text (13 lines)
> > F2 > > > view. > > > > > > I'm sure these "categories" can be expanded, the definitions expanded > and > > > maybe even sub-categories within each of the four created (levels). I > > just > > > wanted to point out that there are different types of sim drivers in > this > > > community...with different aspirations and expectations of what they > like > > or > > > want in a new racing sim.....based on what type of sim driver theyQuoted text (19 lines)
> > > categorize the writer. It does not describe the racing sim in any > > > meaningful way. > > > > > > Just my two cents (about $3 worth)....sorry for the length, but it > seemed > > > like an important topic? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, a little known fact(I believe), is that Earnhardt was an avid F1 fan;
used to watch them in his motorhome, literally before he went racing.
If anyone remembers his Tally win in May of '94, the _first_ thing he said
was a tribute to Senna, who died that morning.
-John
Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2ZQX7.23738$[email hidden]...
> Great story....nice images you created from your memory. I have to agree
> with you....if you love racing, you love it all.
> How much more respect could be given to the sport than to realize Dale
> Earnhardt thought it was much harder to drive the Corvette (in the Rolex
> 24-Hour last year) at Daytona than his WC car (at the same track). And,how
> he studied and questioned his "road racing" teammates, particularly
> O'Connell, about his "road racing skills" and was like a complete "student
> of the sport" for the entire weekend. There's a very nice piece on
> Speedvision being shown this week, highlights of the Corvette Team's ALMS
> season, including details of their race at the Rolex 24-Hour with Dale and
> Jr. At a couple places in the show, it will be hard to not choke up ifyou
running
> the
> > > sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports. The sidesare
> not
> > > well defined, but can generally be divided on the broad basis of
> geography -
> > > between the Europeans and the Americans. Sadly, the chide remarksdon't
Quoted text (44 lines)
> are a NASCAR fan (or even....just a racing fan). > > Tom > > > > "Christopher G Rossie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Tom, I also notice conflicts between oval and road racing. I am not > > puzzled > > by this. I started out as a fan of open wheel midgets and their big > > brothers > > the AAA Champ cars that ran on the dirt miles -- Syracuse, Langhorne, > > and > > the holy of holies -- IMS. > > > > As a result I went all through high school having endless arguments with > > a couple > > of friends who loved road racing -- this was the era of Fangio and Moss. > > One of > > these guys raced at Sebring I believe and then ended up driving > > modifieds at the > > old Shanangra-La (sp?) 1/2 mile asphalt of all things. > > > > My accepting of road racing took about 10 seconds when on Friday the 6th > > of October > > 1961 I walked up to the fence that is opposite the pits at the Glen > > (right where > > the road that crosses the track and heads up the hill behind the pits > > was located) > > and I see a car rolling over just above the 90 and some kind of lump is > > left on the > > track. That lump gets up and walks away! It was Olivier Gendebien. Right > > there I knew > > that all racing is the same to me in the way that it counts for me. > > Brave folks driving > > fast beautiful 'noisy' cars. > > > > arcman > > > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > > > It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide > > > remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom"Quoted text (8 lines)
> > > help the discussion, naturally. > > > > > <snip> > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tom > >Havent been around in months so it dont count.. hahaha :)~
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:h4RX7.23766$[email hidden]...
| C'mon Thom....I tried to make it short....lol.. Don't I get credit forthe
Quoted text (22 lines)
| "try?" Its the shortest post I've made in months (besides this | one)....lol.. | | TP | | | "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:A%QX7.339736$[email hidden]... | > Damm looked like a $100,000 to me!! :) | > | > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54... | > | Here's my "two cents:" | > <znipped a hailuva lot> | > | Regards, | > | | > | Tom | > | | > | > | | Actually, a Canadian invented Basketball.
Pete
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c2fb2b0$0$196$[email hidden]...
> Generally speaking american sports are more "show" than europeanones...the
Quoted text (9 lines)
> rules, the format (TV), the players, everything is more "show" in the > states....good or bad is another question... > > On top of this american football is a spinoff from rugby, not football.... > > Just like baseball is a spinoff from cricket... > > Basketball is the only "real" american sport, maybe that's why you're so > good at it...>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote
> It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide
> remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" runningthe
> sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports.
Really? I see 4-5 people who wrote about that in a single newsgroup over
the Internet, that's all.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www3.sympatico.ca/yves.menard/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
ok, but you see my point ?
"Pete" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
43TX7.4749$[email hidden]...
football....
Quoted text (12 lines)
> Actually, a Canadian invented Basketball. > > Pete > > "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3c2fb2b0$0$196$[email hidden]... > > Generally speaking american sports are more "show" than european > ones...the > > rules, the format (TV), the players, everything is more "show" in the > > states....good or bad is another question... > > > > On top of this american football is a spinoff from rugby, notQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > Just like baseball is a spinoff from cricket... > > > > Basketball is the only "real" american sport, maybe that's why you're so > > good at it... > > >Is this Tom Pabst from Toms Hardware??
In any case, very well said Tom
Tony
New Zealand
Tom Pabst wrote:
>
> I'm tending to think of the "slamming" as being equally divided between the
> two.....just depends on what day you come here.
Not often I agree with you Tom, but this time I do, if Husted is here,
F1, or open wheel racing, gets slammed more than Nascar does, if he's
away it's the other way round :-)
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/
* Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way *
"Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com
Quoted text (13 lines)
>would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the race car >driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the driving skills >during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting >strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like a chess >game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race >driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say any of the >skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing in either form >of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: In road >racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skills and >40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is >something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. I don't >know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it is to >me."Kasey Chang \(send reply to excite.com\)" <[email hidden]> wrote in
>> broad basis of geography - between the Europeans and the Americans.
>> Sadly, the chide remarks don't help the discussion, naturally.
>
> It's a lot of the NIH symptom (Not Invented Here).
>
Which is even more puzzling considering oval racing first started in
europe.
I don't disrespect the drivers of nascar and cart, but I fell asleep in
the middle of the afternoon watching the uk cart race. I tried my best to
be entertained, but I personally find it more entertaining to watch a ford
focus on it's own on a tarmac rally stage, or even a williams bmw f1
lapping a circuit on it's own. If 21 other F1 cars are following it for
60 laps then so much the better :)
I love racing in N4 though, but cart just leaves me uninterested, and I'm
not sure why. Channel 5 in the UK has shown just about all the cart races
in full, so it's not because of poor tv coverage.
Having said all this, my favourite sport (www.autograss.com) is a 1/4 mile
dirt oval racing formula.
Go figure :)
cheers
John
<VBG>
As long as this isn't ovals vs road courses as I enjoy both... even though
my real racing experience is only road courses. ;) F1... the cure of
insomnia! =)
--
Scott B. Husted
ICQ# 4395450
http://www.Husted.cc
"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
>
> Tom Pabst wrote:
> >
> > I'm tending to think of the "slamming" as being equally divided between
the
> > two.....just depends on what day you come here.
>
> Not often I agree with you Tom, but this time I do, if Husted is here,
> F1, or open wheel racing, gets slammed more than Nascar does, if he's
> away it's the other way round :-)
>
>
> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy
>
> "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/
>
> * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way *
> "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com
I fell asleep during my last N4 league race !! ;)
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c30846b$[email hidden]...
> <VBG>
>
> As long as this isn't ovals vs road courses as I enjoy both... even though
> my real racing experience is only road courses. ;) F1... the cure of
> insomnia! =)
>
> --
> Scott B. Husted
> ICQ# 4395450
> http://www.Husted.cc
>
Whereever there are tires, there is tire saving driving.
Todays F1 races are won or lost on tires. You didn't see
that driver who manage to stay 1-2 laps longer on fuel win
races because of less ammount of fuel and better tires. Is
this not a strategy, lol. It is tires war currently going on.
What kind of argument this is. Are you all blind.
"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (9 lines)
> Yup, I think this is exactly how it is.. and also the reason why I > can't get into Nascar.. I like driving on the limit all the time, in > Nascar the major thing that counts is saving your tires and keeping up > with the pack, with the outcome being decided on the last couple of > laps.. That alone would be boring enough for me, but throw in the > average 30% yellow laps in an average online race and I think that > explains why I simply don't like Nascar. I tried it more than enough, > I see how good the sim is, but I just find it plain boring :) >On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:13:26 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Whereever there are tires, there is tire saving driving.
>Todays F1 races are won or lost on tires. You didn't see
>that driver who manage to stay 1-2 laps longer on fuel win
>races because of less ammount of fuel and better tires. Is
>this not a strategy, lol. It is tires war currently going on.
>What kind of argument this is. Are you all blind.
if you visit this newsgroup once in a while you might know that I
kinda like GPL, a racing sim based on the '67 season.. where tires
were not half as important as in nowadays Nascar.
Besides that I think there is still a major difference in stragegie
between Nascar and current F1 races but I'm a bit too tired to discuss
that right now.
HAPPY NEWYEAR
Andre
Quoted text (18 lines)
> > > >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Yup, I think this is exactly how it is.. and also the reason why I >> can't get into Nascar.. I like driving on the limit all the time, in >> Nascar the major thing that counts is saving your tires and keeping up >> with the pack, with the outcome being decided on the last couple of >> laps.. That alone would be boring enough for me, but throw in the >> average 30% yellow laps in an average online race and I think that >> explains why I simply don't like Nascar. I tried it more than enough, >> I see how good the sim is, but I just find it plain boring :) >> > > > > Thanks anyway for replying me. Because, I feel so
isolated in this NG, and am always getting some strange
answers, wich I don't understend.
We were basicaly talked about difference between
American and European look at racing. The major thesis of
Europeans is, something like, "I don't like strategy, I like
real racing.".
Well, simply, I don't understand it. Because, 1) there is
strategy in F1 ((just ) a little different, but, neverthelles, strongly
present ), and 2) man, if you want real racing, Americans still
do it much better (CART ).
I simply cannot understand how a racing fan can put so
much in F1, where, 1) during TV coverage, you see most of
the time leader driving alone, sometimes you see some battle up
to the first six, the rest like don't exist. 2) where the drivers who
are really racing hard are the one at the back, because , with
bad equipment they try to be in pace with drivers with good
equipment, and 3) all atention is on a guy with the best equipment,
driving comfortably all alone at the lead.
4) where most famous track is the one on whitch, by design,
racing can happen only by accident.
5) where there is a little bit, or no at all, overtaking. At the
same time, racing form with a lot of overtaking, is incredibly
dull to F1 fan.
To make all things more interesting, it is actually me who
have been watching F1 races from 1973, and who was all the time
F1 fan, till I didn't have a chance to watch American races via
satelite.
Happy New Year
"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (21 lines)
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:13:26 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Whereever there are tires, there is tire saving driving. > >Todays F1 races are won or lost on tires. You didn't see > >that driver who manage to stay 1-2 laps longer on fuel win > >races because of less ammount of fuel and better tires. Is > >this not a strategy, lol. It is tires war currently going on. > >What kind of argument this is. Are you all blind. > > if you visit this newsgroup once in a while you might know that I > kinda like GPL, a racing sim based on the '67 season.. where tires > were not half as important as in nowadays Nascar. > Besides that I think there is still a major difference in stragegie > between Nascar and current F1 races but I'm a bit too tired to discuss > that right now. > > HAPPY NEWYEAR > > Andre >Hi Tom,
a good post.
Achim
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54...
> It seems to me the release of the N-2002 demo has rekindled the chide
> remarks about NASCAR racing, oval racing and cries of "boredom" runningthe
> sims we have available to us depicting those motorsports.
[snip: see first post in this thread]
Hi Tom,
a good post.
Achim
[snip: see first post in this thread]
On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:56:42 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> To make all things more interesting, it is actually me who
>have been watching F1 races from 1973, and who was all the time
>F1 fan, till I didn't have a chance to watch American races via
>satelite.
I can't really judge Nascar, simply because I don't know much about
it. I only know a couple of the drivers and nothing about the history
of Nascar.
With F1 it's otherwise, I read a lot about F1 and it's simply more fun
watching a racing series if you know all the drivers, the cars and a
bit of the history.
You are right when you talk about current F1 racing, if you watch it
purely for the racing it can be pretty boring most of the times.. only
a couple of drivers who can win thanks to their much better cars, and
most races are won on the pitstop strategy. But I love the F1 cars,
the F1 drivers and the F1 tracks, again because I know them all so
well.. like one other guy said, watching one F1 car racing on a track
is exciting in itself, and it gets even better when that car is being
followed by 20 other cars :)
Andre
I really, really enjoy F1, have for years, but boy, you hit my biggest
gripe in terms of tv coverage; all that's ever shown is the first 2-3 cars
for the whole race.
Show the entire field, throughout the race.
-John
Mario Petrinovic <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0s4mg$booa$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (63 lines)
> Thanks anyway for replying me. Because, I feel so > isolated in this NG, and am always getting some strange > answers, wich I don't understend. > We were basicaly talked about difference between > American and European look at racing. The major thesis of > Europeans is, something like, "I don't like strategy, I like > real racing.". > Well, simply, I don't understand it. Because, 1) there is > strategy in F1 ((just ) a little different, but, neverthelles, strongly > present ), and 2) man, if you want real racing, Americans still > do it much better (CART ). > I simply cannot understand how a racing fan can put so > much in F1, where, 1) during TV coverage, you see most of > the time leader driving alone, sometimes you see some battle up > to the first six, the rest like don't exist. 2) where the drivers who > are really racing hard are the one at the back, because , with > bad equipment they try to be in pace with drivers with good > equipment, and 3) all atention is on a guy with the best equipment, > driving comfortably all alone at the lead. > 4) where most famous track is the one on whitch, by design, > racing can happen only by accident. > 5) where there is a little bit, or no at all, overtaking. At the > same time, racing form with a lot of overtaking, is incredibly > dull to F1 fan. > To make all things more interesting, it is actually me who > have been watching F1 races from 1973, and who was all the time > F1 fan, till I didn't have a chance to watch American races via > satelite. > > Happy New Year > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:13:26 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > Whereever there are tires, there is tire saving driving. > > >Todays F1 races are won or lost on tires. You didn't see > > >that driver who manage to stay 1-2 laps longer on fuel win > > >races because of less ammount of fuel and better tires. Is > > >this not a strategy, lol. It is tires war currently going on. > > >What kind of argument this is. Are you all blind. > > > > if you visit this newsgroup once in a while you might know that I > > kinda like GPL, a racing sim based on the '67 season.. where tires > > were not half as important as in nowadays Nascar. > > Besides that I think there is still a major difference in stragegie > > between Nascar and current F1 races but I'm a bit too tired to discuss > > that right now. > > > > HAPPY NEWYEAR > > > > Andre > > > > > > > > > Thanks you John and Andre for yours honest answers. You two
are helping me to express myself better. I want to say, I also love
watching F1 (also other forms of racing ), and know it for a long long time.
I want to say that todeys F1 is made for masses, not quite for a
racing fan. They are showing first 2-3 cars, simply because masses
doesn't know other drivers, and don't have time to learn. Female masses
like to watch soap series "Dinasty", where everybody is extremly rich.
F1 is soap for male masses. You put big amount of money in anything,
and you'll get few hundrets times more money from people who like to
watch that big money.
Masses also love heroes, so you create them a hero. Senna has
incredibly low records. He failed to transfer 24 poles into a win, my god,
altough he was always in a fastest car (Schumacher have 10 wins more
than poles, and he never was in fastest car ), he had only 19 fastest laps
in 161 races (Schumacher 44 in 160 races ). Is this "the fastest man the
world has ever seen". I mean, in F1 everything is upside-down. And jet
a lot of people compare it to nothing.
Other form of road racing (BTCC, CART, DTM ), while probably
more interesting, doesn't have such a big audience, simply because there
is not so much money involved. This is why I don't understand how
somebody can say for Americans that all they have is show, when
actualy Europeans are organizing F1 show, and Americans have some
pure racing, like CART (old F1 stile ) and, if you ask me, NASCAR .
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (7 lines)
> I really, really enjoy F1, have for years, but boy, you hit my biggest > gripe in terms of tv coverage; all that's ever shown is the first 2-3 cars > for the whole race. > Show the entire field, throughout the race. > > -John > Well, without being quite as adamant about it as you are,<G>, that's true.
At the same time, I think it's safe to say it's true about any of the top
levels of racing, not just F1; it's more about entertainment(from the
sactioning bodies, not necessarily the drivers view) than racing per se.
Same can be said for any professional sport to some degree.
As I said elsewhere; glad there's local tracks<G>
-John
Mario Petrinovic <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0t33k$f2p1$[email hidden]...
> Thanks you John and Andre for yours honest answers. You two
> are helping me to express myself better. I want to say, I also love
> watching F1 (also other forms of racing ), and know it for a long longtime.
cars
Quoted text (28 lines)
> I want to say that todeys F1 is made for masses, not quite for a > racing fan. They are showing first 2-3 cars, simply because masses > doesn't know other drivers, and don't have time to learn. Female masses > like to watch soap series "Dinasty", where everybody is extremly rich. > F1 is soap for male masses. You put big amount of money in anything, > and you'll get few hundrets times more money from people who like to > watch that big money. > Masses also love heroes, so you create them a hero. Senna has > incredibly low records. He failed to transfer 24 poles into a win, my god, > altough he was always in a fastest car (Schumacher have 10 wins more > than poles, and he never was in fastest car ), he had only 19 fastest laps > in 161 races (Schumacher 44 in 160 races ). Is this "the fastest man the > world has ever seen". I mean, in F1 everything is upside-down. And jet > a lot of people compare it to nothing. > Other form of road racing (BTCC, CART, DTM ), while probably > more interesting, doesn't have such a big audience, simply because there > is not so much money involved. This is why I don't understand how > somebody can say for Americans that all they have is show, when > actualy Europeans are organizing F1 show, and Americans have some > pure racing, like CART (old F1 stile ) and, if you ask me, NASCAR . > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I really, really enjoy F1, have for years, but boy, you hit my biggest > > gripe in terms of tv coverage; all that's ever shown is the first 2-3Quoted text (8 lines)
> > for the whole race. > > Show the entire field, throughout the race. > > > > -John > > > > > BTW, this is another misconception about NASCAR, I'm
afraid. If all they do is saving tires and keeping up with pack, than
it wouldn't be posible to have 2/3 of the field lap or more behind the
leader, at the end. They are really racing, all the time.
"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>I like driving on the limit all the time, in
> Nascar the major thing that counts is saving your tires and keeping up
> with the pack, with the outcome being decided on the last couple of
> laps
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0t33k$f2p1$[email hidden]...
> Masses also love heroes, so you create them a hero. Senna has
> incredibly low records. He failed to transfer 24 poles into a win, my god,
> altough he was always in a fastest car (Schumacher have 10 wins more
> than poles, and he never was in fastest car ), he had only 19 fastest laps
> in 161 races (Schumacher 44 in 160 races ). Is this "the fastest man the
> world has ever seen".
I didn't know that about Senna. Another reason why I think Schumacher is the
best ever. :-)
David G Fisher (NASCAR blows ;-) )
"David G Fisher"
> > Masses also love heroes, so you create them a hero. Senna has
> > incredibly low records. He failed to transfer 24 poles into a win, mygod,
> > altough he was always in a fastest car (Schumacher have 10 wins more
> > than poles, and he never was in fastest car ), he had only 19 fastestlaps
> > in 161 races (Schumacher 44 in 160 races ). Is this "the fastest man the
> > world has ever seen".
>
> I didn't know that about Senna. Another reason why I think Schumacher isthe
> best ever. :-)
>
> David G Fisher (NASCAR blows ;-) )
Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
competition???
"David G Fisher"
Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
competition???
> I always get a kick out of the comments too :) Try to stay out of it
> myself..........but one thing always noticed is how many open wheel fans
> slam oval racing..........but how few oval fans slam open wheel
> racing....hmmmmm :)
Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite boring to
watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers are the best
in the world. The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world. The
cars are the most advanced cars in the world.
> Some of the best racing I've seen in 2001 was on Speedvision - the
> Speedvision GT and Touring Car champsionships. Lots of beating and
> banging, spin outs, and close finishes. Great stuff.
Great racing? Beating, banging and spinouts is great racing? Huh? Depends on
if you want to watch great drivers (who rarely make mistakes), or rednecks
who that are so bad, they have fill in drivers for the road courses in there
own series.
In message <a0t33k$f2p1$[email hidden]>
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Ho hum.
Senna was *not* always in the best car. Toleman? Lotus? The later McLaren
years?
Schumacher, on the other hand, has had a damn good car for: 1994, 1995, 2000
and 2001. Funnily enough, the years that he won the championship...
--
Richard.
"This happened once before, when I came to your door, no reply."
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Masses also love heroes, so you create them a hero. Senna has > incredibly low records. He failed to transfer 24 poles into a win, my god, > altough he was always in a fastest car (Schumacher have 10 wins more than > poles, and he never was in fastest car ), he had only 19 fastest laps in > 161 races (Schumacher 44 in 160 races ). Is this "the fastest man the > world has ever seen". I mean, in F1 everything is upside-down. And jet a > lot of people compare it to nothing.
"jlohman"
I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racing fan..Heck
I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have
preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, But touring car,
Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught my eye... Thes
absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at
Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So let me play
the Devil's advocate for a moment or two...
> Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite boringto
> watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers are thebest
> in the world. Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye drivers
comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't need a
computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the pitspeed
limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a computer to
get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just what makes them
the best?
> The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world. Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resemble the
Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnation of
Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? or Phillip
Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch?
> The cars are the most advanced cars in the world. Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them
moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another program to keep
the tires from spinning.
But two outta three ain't bad...
Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it's appeal. The
list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that for Nascar.
But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be
improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans.
dave henrie
Adrian Newey for one ;)
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"Dave Henrie" wrote
>
> Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
> competition???
>
>
>
>
What did I say about the motorcycle race?
As for the aids, just about every current F1 driver has already proved he
could handle the cars without them. The drivers were actually sliding the
cars more this year becasue they were going faster and dancing even closer
to the edge.
A bunch of old, fat, farts in NASCAR are never going to be close in talent
to the F1 drivers. I said this onece before (and got a predictable
response)........how can a group of drivers from one series which are almost
completely from one region (the south), in one country, possibly be of the
same level of talent as drivers from another series (F1) that come from all
over the world? Is there something in the water "down there"?
David G Fisher
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:teqY7.187$[email hidden]...
>
> "jlohman"
> I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racingfan..Heck
> I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have
> preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, But touringcar,
> Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught my eye...Thes
> absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at
> Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So let meplay
to
> get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just what makesthem
> the best?
>
> > The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world.
> Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resemble the
> Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnation of
> Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? orPhillip
> Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch?
>
> > The cars are the most advanced cars in the world.
> Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them
> moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another program tokeep
Quoted text (11 lines)
> the Devil's advocate for a moment or two... > > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite boring > to > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers are the > best > > in the world. > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye drivers > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't need a > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the pitspeed > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a computerQuoted text (10 lines)
> the tires from spinning. > But two outta three ain't bad... > Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it's appeal. The > list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that for Nascar. > But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be > improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans. > dave henrie > > >
"jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]...
> > Some of the best racing I've seen in 2001 was on Speedvision - the
> > Speedvision GT and Touring Car champsionships. Lots of beating and
> > banging, spin outs, and close finishes. Great stuff.
>
> Great racing? Beating, banging and spinouts is great racing? Huh? Dependson
> if you want to watch great drivers (who rarely make mistakes), or rednecks
> who that are so bad, they have fill in drivers for the road courses inthere
> own series. Sorry to keep picking on you but....
Drivers that rarely make mistakes...hmmm could you be refering to Mika
Hakkinen who gave away a race he was leading(by a large margin) simply by
downshifting and downshifting and downshifting till the rear wheels locked
up?(perhaps that's why F1 drivers have computers to shift for them now)
Or Shumey who was so far ahead at Indy that he fell asleep and spun? Or
David Coulthard who hit the pitwall while trying to enter the pits? Or Josh
Verstappen who drove into the back of Montoya after letting him by? Or
Shumey Jr who got a 10 second stop and go for driving over a line the
drivers were specifically warned about in pre-race instructions? I could go
on...including how the world's greatest driver, while driving unchallenged
and in the lead in the pentultimate race of the season, a performance that
would have clinched the World title, got sloppy and drove into a wall...
My point is NOT to rag F1 drivers...but to remind everyone that drivers
are Human..they make mistakes. Nascar drivers do...Cart drivers do...That
human element is part of what makes racing what it is. Otherwise we could
just hook up the cars to computer ports, run the data, and declare the
winner.
One note about the Rental Road course drivers. WC drivers spend most of
their time on Ovals...that is the basis of the series add up all the RC laps
they complete and you probably don't even have enough laps to equal one race
distance on an oval, let alone the practice and warmups and qualifying etc
..If you had F1 drivers who normally ran road courses and dropped an oval
event in the schedule, I think you would find a Kenny Brack or a Jeff Gordon
on a short list of replacement drivers for some of the F1 regulars. Maybe
not at first, but if an oval was a regular event, sooner or later, an F1
team would bring in a ringer.(think of Ford who has teams based in both
series, the cross promotion value would be tremendous).
Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a redneck...he's a
Californian by way of Indiana. Simply because drivers originate from a
paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit
their abilities? Tony Stewart a redneck? Robbie Gordon? Kenny Schrader
races Nascar, Nascar trucks, dirt track cars, short track cars, his idea of
a vacation is to find another racetrack to drive at...Can any one of the
Super F1 drivers boast his range of experience? To be sure, thye are
experts, they are very very good, but by no means do they represent the the
entire spectrum of racing.
There is a video on the net about about Mika Hakkinen driving a touring
car. Is Mika better than Bernd Scheider? Logic would say yes...Mika is a
two time F1 champion...Bernd has never even won an F1 event, yet when the
two ran DTM touring cars, Bernd's experience in the type let him easily
outrun Mika. Put Shumy in a WC rolling tank and see if he can apply all his
skills in a 4 hour race.( I would bet he would do quite well, but certainly
not outclass the creme of the Nascar field...that's their playground he,
similarly would fly away from a WC driver trying to run an F1 car.)
I haven't even mentioned Rallye car drivers who possess an amazing ability
to change pace and direction...I would love to see Shu and others compete
there as well, it woud make for interesting viewing. Putting Colin Mcrae
and MS in equal Ford's would be a real experience.
Sorry I took so long to make my point...There are great drivers all over
the world, just because one specializes in a paticular form does not make
him the superior driver compared to others who specialize in different
series.
dave henrie
Yep, nothing rednecked in these remarks, eh? :) Another open mind who's
more closed than those he mocks.
-John
jlohman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]...
> >
> Great racing? Beating, banging and spinouts is great racing? Huh? Dependson
> if you want to watch great drivers (who rarely make mistakes), or rednecks
> who that are so bad, they have fill in drivers for the road courses inthere
> own series.
>
>
"David G Fisher"
> A bunch of old, fat, farts in NASCAR are never going to be close in talent
> to the F1 drivers. I said this onece before (and got a predictable
> response)........how can a group of drivers from one series which arealmost
> completely from one region (the south), in one country, possibly be of the
> same level of talent as drivers from another series (F1) that come fromall
> over the world? Is there something in the water "down there"? nope they are just exposed to a certain type of racing that's all. Do
they all excell? noway. But is Jeff Gordon a Fat Old Fart?(fof) or How old
is Jean Alesis now that he's over the hill. Could Jenson Button or Kimi
Raikonen with all their youthful talent bang fenders with Jimmy Spencer?
Most F1 drivers are good at what they do, but they have become so
specialized that they miss out on such a huge range of racing. I used Kenny
Schrader as an example in a rather loooong post elsewhere and I'm trying to
think of an F1 driver that would compare....The fellows around the time of
Jim Clark certainly would but modern drivers?
dave henrie
boring
> > to
> > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers arethe
The
> > list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that forNascar.
Quoted text (20 lines)
> > David G Fisher > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:teqY7.187$[email hidden]... > > > > "jlohman" > > I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racing > fan..Heck > > I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have > > preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, But touring > car, > > Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught my eye... > Thes > > absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at > > Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So let me > play > > the Devil's advocate for a moment or two... > > > > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quiteQuoted text (25 lines)
> > best > > > in the world. > > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye drivers > > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't need a > > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the pitspeed > > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a computer > to > > get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just what makes > them > > the best? > > > > > The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world. > > Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resemble the > > Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnation of > > Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? or > Phillip > > Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch? > > > > > The cars are the most advanced cars in the world. > > Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them > > moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another program to > keep > > the tires from spinning. > > But two outta three ain't bad... > > Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it's appeal.Quoted text (8 lines)
> > But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be > > improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans. > > dave henrie > > > > > > > >You didn't tell me what I said about the motorcycle race, and you didn't
really answer my question.
There is absolutely, positively, no way a group of drivers that come almost
entirely from one region in one country can have the same talents as drivers
that are chosen from a MUCH larger talent pool.
BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated) is
38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCAR drivers who
are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because the physical
demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers.
David G Fisher
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:QSqY7.3808$dK4.54402@rwcrnsc52...
>
> "David G Fisher"
> > A bunch of old, fat, farts in NASCAR are never going to be close intalent
> > to the F1 drivers. I said this onece before (and got a predictable
> > response)........how can a group of drivers from one series which are
> almost
> > completely from one region (the south), in one country, possibly be ofthe
> > same level of talent as drivers from another series (F1) that come from
> all
> > over the world? Is there something in the water "down there"?
> nope they are just exposed to a certain type of racing that's all. Do
> they all excell? noway. But is Jeff Gordon a Fat Old Fart?(fof) or Howold
> is Jean Alesis now that he's over the hill. Could Jenson Button or Kimi
> Raikonen with all their youthful talent bang fenders with Jimmy Spencer?
> Most F1 drivers are good at what they do, but they have become so
> specialized that they miss out on such a huge range of racing. I usedKenny
> Schrader as an example in a rather loooong post elsewhere and I'm tryingto
a
> > > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit thepitspeed
> > > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need acomputer
the
> > > Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnationof
Quoted text (31 lines)
> think of an F1 driver that would compare....The fellows around the time of > Jim Clark certainly would but modern drivers? > dave henrie > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:teqY7.187$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "jlohman" > > > I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racing > > fan..Heck > > > I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have > > > preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, But touring > > car, > > > Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught my eye... > > Thes > > > absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at > > > Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So let me > > play > > > the Devil's advocate for a moment or two... > > > > > > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite > boring > > > to > > > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers are > the > > > best > > > > in the world. > > > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye drivers > > > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't needQuoted text (7 lines)
> > to > > > get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just what makes > > them > > > the best? > > > > > > > The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world. > > > Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resembleQuoted text (24 lines)
> > > Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? or > > Phillip > > > Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch? > > > > > > > The cars are the most advanced cars in the world. > > > Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them > > > moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another program to > > keep > > > the tires from spinning. > > > But two outta three ain't bad... > > > Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it's appeal. > The > > > list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that for > Nascar. > > > But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be > > > improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans. > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 20:20:08 GMT, "David G Fisher"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Indeed, that was an interesting fact.. but besides the statistics,
Senna was one of the most beautiful drivers to watch.. agressive to
the extreme, 2nd wasn't good enough under any circumstances, the guy
needed to WIN.. while schumi drives so perfect it allmost becomes
boring to watch :)
F1 needs more Montoyas!!
Andre
Quoted text (14 lines)
> >"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:a0t33k$f2p1$[email hidden]... >> Masses also love heroes, so you create them a hero. Senna has >> incredibly low records. He failed to transfer 24 poles into a win, my god, >> altough he was always in a fastest car (Schumacher have 10 wins more >> than poles, and he never was in fastest car ), he had only 19 fastest laps >> in 161 races (Schumacher 44 in 160 races ). Is this "the fastest man the >> world has ever seen". > >I didn't know that about Senna. Another reason why I think Schumacher is the >best ever. :-) > >David G Fisher (NASCAR blows ;-) )
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:RKqY7.2270$V35.26042@rwcrnsc53...
>
> "jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]...
> Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a redneck...he'sa
> Californian by way of Indiana.
Talks like one. :-)
>Simply because drivers originate from a
> paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit
> their abilities?
Definitely.
David G Fisher
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:27rY7.347252$[email hidden]...
> You didn't tell me what I said about the motorcycle race, and you didn't
> really answer my question. Sorry ...something about 4 kids on trikes running around the block could
be a good race.
>
> There is absolutely, positively, no way a group of drivers that comealmost
> entirely from one region in one country can have the same talents asdrivers
> that are chosen from a MUCH larger talent pool. agreed to a point. Since the larger pool of talent has no experience in
Nascar type racing, the advantage of world wide numbers is deminished.
>
> BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated) is
> 38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCAR driverswho
> are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because the physical
> demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers. Physical demands yes indeed...but would they all be so skinny if they had
the room WC drivers have? Part of the physical fitness is merely to remain
waifish enough to climb inside. But that aside, the F1 car does put
tremendous physical stresses on a driver...in 1.5 hour blocks. How long is
the Charlotte 600 race? Just as Marathoners are built different from
Sprinters, so too the F1 driver vs the Nascar driver.
dave henrie
from
> > all
> > > over the world? Is there something in the water "down there"?
> > nope they are just exposed to a certain type of racing that's all.Do
of
touring
> > > car,
> > > > Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught myeye...
> > > Thes
> > > > absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at
> > > > Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So letme
are
> > the
> > > > best
> > > > > in the world.
> > > > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallyedrivers
> > > > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don'tneed
makes
to
> > > keep
> > > > the tires from spinning.
> > > > But two outta three ain't bad...
> > > > Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it'sappeal.
Quoted text (15 lines)
> > David G Fisher > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:QSqY7.3808$dK4.54402@rwcrnsc52... > > > > "David G Fisher" > > > A bunch of old, fat, farts in NASCAR are never going to be close in > talent > > > to the F1 drivers. I said this onece before (and got a predictable > > > response)........how can a group of drivers from one series which are > > almost > > > completely from one region (the south), in one country, possibly be of > the > > > same level of talent as drivers from another series (F1) that comeQuoted text (10 lines)
> > they all excell? noway. But is Jeff Gordon a Fat Old Fart?(fof) or How > old > > is Jean Alesis now that he's over the hill. Could Jenson Button or Kimi > > Raikonen with all their youthful talent bang fenders with Jimmy Spencer? > > Most F1 drivers are good at what they do, but they have become so > > specialized that they miss out on such a huge range of racing. I used > Kenny > > Schrader as an example in a rather loooong post elsewhere and I'm trying > to > > think of an F1 driver that would compare....The fellows around the timeQuoted text (13 lines)
> > Jim Clark certainly would but modern drivers? > > dave henrie > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:teqY7.187$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > "jlohman" > > > > I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racing > > > fan..Heck > > > > I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have > > > > preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, ButQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > play > > > > the Devil's advocate for a moment or two... > > > > > > > > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite > > boring > > > > to > > > > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 driversQuoted text (7 lines)
> a > > > > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the > pitspeed > > > > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a > computer > > > to > > > > get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just whatQuoted text (15 lines)
> > > them > > > > the best? > > > > > > > > > The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world. > > > > Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resemble > the > > > > Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnation > of > > > > Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? or > > > Phillip > > > > Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch? > > > > > > > > > The cars are the most advanced cars in the world. > > > > Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them > > > > moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another programQuoted text (15 lines)
> > The > > > > list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that for > > Nascar. > > > > But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be > > > > improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans. > > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ScrY7.3984$dK4.55407@rwcrnsc52...
>
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:27rY7.347252$[email hidden]...
> > You didn't tell me what I said about the motorcycle race, and you didn't
> > really answer my question.
> Sorry ...something about 4 kids on trikes running around the blockcould
> be a good race.
You jogged my memory so I looked up the thread.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=%25oY97.58361%24EP6.13702118%4
0news1.rdc2.pa.home.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Drec.autos.simulators%2BDav
id%2BG%2BFisher%2Btricycles%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch
My comments were just a joke (except the part about ymenard :-) ) and meant
to needle you since you kind of ripped F1. I made clear that clear in a
subsequent reply. I used to have a motorcycle and loved it.
If I actually did half of the bad things I get accused of here, I could see
why some of you would think I was such a jerk.
Not diminished. Just a fact. They don't come from a large talent pool
compared to drivers from F1. If they all came from one city, state, or three
states, I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with me at all.
> > BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated)is
had
> the room WC drivers have? Part of the physical fitness is merely toremain
> waifish enough to climb inside. But that aside, the F1 car does put
> tremendous physical stresses on a driver...in 1.5 hour blocks. How longis
> the Charlotte 600 race? Just as Marathoners are built different from
> Sprinters, so too the F1 driver vs the Nascar driver.
I wouldn't say NASCAR drivers bear much resemblance to serious marathoners.
:-)
David G Fisher
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > There is absolutely, positively, no way a group of drivers that come > almost > > entirely from one region in one country can have the same talents as > drivers > > that are chosen from a MUCH larger talent pool. > agreed to a point. Since the larger pool of talent has no experience in > Nascar type racing, the advantage of world wide numbers is deminished.Quoted text (7 lines)
> > 38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCAR drivers > who > > are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because the physical > > demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers. > Physical demands yes indeed...but would they all be so skinny if theyThis link should work.
http://groups.google.com/groupsq=rec.autos.simulators+David+G+Fisher+tricycl
es&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TurY7.347326$[email hidden]...
didn't
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=%25oY97.58361%24EP6.13702118%4
>0news1.rdc2.pa.home.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Drec.autos.simulators%2BDav
> id%2BG%2BFisher%2Btricycles%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch
>
> My comments were just a joke (except the part about ymenard :-) ) andmeant
> to needle you since you kind of ripped F1. I made clear that clear in a
> subsequent reply. I used to have a motorcycle and loved it.
>
> If I actually did half of the bad things I get accused of here, I couldsee
in
> > Nascar type racing, the advantage of world wide numbers is deminished.
>
> Not diminished. Just a fact. They don't come from a large talent pool
> compared to drivers from F1. If they all came from one city, state, orthree
> states, I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with me at all.
>
>
> > > BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated)
> is
> > > 38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCARdrivers
> > who
> > > are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because thephysical
marathoners.
> :-)
>
> David G Fisher
>
>
>
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ScrY7.3984$dK4.55407@rwcrnsc52... > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:27rY7.347252$[email hidden]... > > > You didn't tell me what I said about the motorcycle race, and youQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > really answer my question. > > Sorry ...something about 4 kids on trikes running around the block > could > > be a good race. > > You jogged my memory so I looked up the thread. > >Quoted text (8 lines)
> why some of you would think I was such a jerk. > > > > There is absolutely, positively, no way a group of drivers that come > > almost > > > entirely from one region in one country can have the same talents as > > drivers > > > that are chosen from a MUCH larger talent pool. > > agreed to a point. Since the larger pool of talent has no experienceQuoted text (14 lines)
> > > demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers. > > > > Physical demands yes indeed...but would they all be so skinny if they > had > > the room WC drivers have? Part of the physical fitness is merely to > remain > > waifish enough to climb inside. But that aside, the F1 car does put > > tremendous physical stresses on a driver...in 1.5 hour blocks. How long > is > > the Charlotte 600 race? Just as Marathoners are built different from > > Sprinters, so too the F1 driver vs the Nascar driver. > > I wouldn't say NASCAR drivers bear much resemblance to seriousQuoted text (10 lines)
> > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite boring > to > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers are the > best > > in the world. > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye drivers > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't need a > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the pitspeed > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a computer
"
> Sorry to keep picking on you but....
:-) We all have opinions.
> My point is NOT to rag F1 drivers...but to remind everyone that drivers
> are Human..they make mistakes. Nascar drivers do...Cart drivers do...That
> human element is part of what makes racing what it is. Otherwise we could
> just hook up the cars to computer ports, run the data, and declare the
> winner.
I did not say they were perfect. But they make very few mistakes. I would
say the fewest mistakes in all of car racing.
> ..If you had F1 drivers who normally ran road courses and dropped an oval
> event in the schedule, I think you would find a Kenny Brack or a JeffGordon
> on a short list of replacement drivers for some of the F1 regulars. Maybe
> not at first, but if an oval was a regular event, sooner or later, an F1
> team would bring in a ringer.(think of Ford who has teams based in both
> series, the cross promotion value would be tremendous).
Umm. I think Montoya would do very well on an oval in F1 (if the impossible
happened). Actually, I think Villenueve would do very well as well. As for
that matter, I really don't think any team would replace their drivers with
a Jeff Gordan or a Tony Stewert. My opinion is that Micheal Schumacher would
beat Jeff Gordan on any track in an equal F1 car, Oval or not.
> Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a redneck...he'sa
> Californian by way of Indiana. Simply because drivers originate from a
> paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit
> their abilities? Tony Stewart a redneck? Robbie Gordon? Kenny Schrader
> races Nascar, Nascar trucks, dirt track cars, short track cars, his ideaof
> a vacation is to find another racetrack to drive at...Can any one of the
> Super F1 drivers boast his range of experience? >
Yes, I agree, Jeff Gordan is not a redneck. But you put him in a TV
commerical with junk cars in front of a house, and he would not look out of
place, my opinion.
Well, Rubens and Micheal Schumacher both raced go carts during the off
season. I don't know anything about Nascar trucks, there is no way in the
world I would watch that. That is the bigest joke in motor racing in my
opinion. I'll watch just about all types of racing ( I have even watched
drag racing, when I've very bored), but I draw the line at true, diehard,
redneck racing.
Quoted text (13 lines)
> Masses also love heroes, so you create them a hero. Senna has > incredibly low records. He failed to transfer 24 poles into a win, my god, > altough he was always in a fastest car (Schumacher have 10 wins more > than poles, and he never was in fastest car ), he had only 19 fastest laps > in 161 races (Schumacher 44 in 160 races ). Is this "the fastest man the > world has ever seen". I mean, in F1 everything is upside-down. And jet > a lot of people compare it to nothing. > Other form of road racing (BTCC, CART, DTM ), while probably > more interesting, doesn't have such a big audience, simply because there > is not so much money involved. This is why I don't understand how > somebody can say for Americans that all they have is show, when > actualy Europeans are organizing F1 show, and Americans have some > pure racing, like CART (old F1 stile ) and, if you ask me, NASCAR .
"> Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
> competition???
True, and his career was cut short.
"VFy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
on
> >if you want to watch great drivers (who rarely make mistakes), orrednecks
> >who that are so bad, they have fill in drivers for the road courses inthere
They rarely made mistakes before the "techno-gadgetry" because they are the
best.
>Add to that the rarity of
> competitive passing in F1 and you have the wonderfully antiseptic
> racing that F1 has become.
They don't have phony passing like in NASCAR. You're right there.
The main reason you don't see a lot of passing in F1 is because the cars are
mind blowingly quick and fast, and the drivers are so great. If you put all
of them, and anyone here at r.a.s. in a cars that couldn't go over 40mph,
we'd all finish bumper to bumper too. Big deal. Just because it would be
close wouldn't make it interesting.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (8 lines)
> On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:19:21 GMT, "jlohman" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >> Some of the best racing I've seen in 2001 was on Speedvision - the > >> Speedvision GT and Touring Car champsionships. Lots of beating and > >> banging, spin outs, and close finishes. Great stuff. > > > >Great racing? Beating, banging and spinouts is great racing? Huh? DependsQuoted text (11 lines)
> >own series. > > > > Well there's a series of stupid comments by someone who's proud to > display his ignorance. > > Yes, beating, banging and spinouts make for some excitement, as do > close finishes which you chose to overlook. > > With all the techno-gadgetry that today's F1 drivers have at their > disposal, why should they make mistakes?"jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:gIsY7.57283$[email hidden]...
> About Senna, I did not watch F1 then, but I think you are not going tofind
> many that share your opinion.
That is the sadest part. And this is why I wrote all this posts. The
numbers tell the truth. In fact they are so strong that nobody can
argue them. Jet the mind of todays F1 fan is so brainwashed that he
cannot see the truth anymore. Senna was "the best driver the world
has ever seen" in the rain, but otherwise he was just overambitious
good driver. Nothing more. If F1 is racing on lose surfaces, Senna
again wouldn't be the best driver, but probably some Scandinavian.
Regarding quality of drivers. What makes F1 the best drivers in
the world? Again money. Money atracts best drivers in the world to
come to F1. Here comes, for me as racing fan, another very sad part.
I like to know who the best drivers are, and I sure respect them, but
most of all, I want to see that immense talent in action, like I saw it
during 70's. Whenever I'm looking F1 race I'm sad, because I see
the best drivers in the world, being paid big amount of money, just
to walk the expensive cars around the track, every two weeks. I want
to see them battling for every inch. What a waste of talent seeing
excellent driver at the back of the pack all the time, and in the same
time, some test drivers winning the championships.
Regarding Nascar drivers. I can tell you, I saw a lot of racing
in my life, and when I saw Nascar I was plesently surprised with
quality of Nascar drivers. IMO, and not only IMO, they are very,
very good. I mean, I'm fan of Michael Schumacher, but Jeff Gordon
is very good too. And, although I think MS is godlike driver, to
say that he can beat JG on his own terrain is just streching it a little
too far.
"jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:gIsY7.57283$[email hidden]...
> In F1 the guy in front, is generally in
>front, because he's faster than the guy behind him, not because he got a
>good draft off of Billy Bob's bumper.
You cannot be more futher from truth. man. Mikka Hakinnen, Nigel
Mansel, Damon Hill, and even Mario Andretti, if anybody remembers,
were nobody before and after they raced for the top team. In a last 6
years those drivers scored 3 champinships. Nigel Mansel was interesting
example. Fighting like lion (Il Leone ), his driving stile had many fans
(including me ). Always interesting to watch. But, he was just inferior
driver in a superior machine, fighting like a lion with superior drivers in
inferior cars.
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated) is
>38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCAR drivers who
>are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because the physical
>demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers.
>
Just curious as to what criteria you use to judge "immense talent"?
You apply the label to Jean Alesi who has won precisely 1 GP out of
what, 200 starts while having a reputation for more than a few moments
of brainfade throughout his career (running the Benneton out of fuel
because he allegedly couldn't hear the pits calling him in for
example, or punting off his teammate at A-1 a couple of years ago).
Yet, on the other hand we have JP Montoya who has won exactly the same
number of GPs as Mr. Alesi in a much shorter time frame, who you have
frequently slammed in this newsgroup as being some kind of no-talent
hack (not your exact words, but the same idea).
While you are certainly entitled to your opinions, your credibility in
this newsgroup is so low that frankly I don't know why you even bother
to spout some of the drivel that you do...
Just to satisfy your curiosity, it is know fact that Alesi had
a lot of talent when he was younger, but didn't produce result
because he was blindly faitfull to Ferrari, and Ferrari at that time
wasn't in its best years. If he drove for some other team, and there
were interest for him, he maybe wouldn't win a championship, but
he was capable for cca. 10 GP wins, for sure.
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (8 lines)
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Just curious as to what criteria you use to judge "immense talent"? > You apply the label to Jean Alesi who has won precisely 1 GP out of > what, 200 starts while having a reputation for more than a few moments > of brainfade throughout his career (running the Benneton out of fuel > because he allegedly couldn't hear the pits calling him in for > example, or punting off his teammate at A-1 a couple of years ago).Dumbass.
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated) is
> >38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCAR driverswho
Quoted text (18 lines)
> >are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because the physical > >demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers. > > > > Just curious as to what criteria you use to judge "immense talent"? > You apply the label to Jean Alesi who has won precisely 1 GP out of > what, 200 starts while having a reputation for more than a few moments > of brainfade throughout his career (running the Benneton out of fuel > because he allegedly couldn't hear the pits calling him in for > example, or punting off his teammate at A-1 a couple of years ago). > Yet, on the other hand we have JP Montoya who has won exactly the same > number of GPs as Mr. Alesi in a much shorter time frame, who you have > frequently slammed in this newsgroup as being some kind of no-talent > hack (not your exact words, but the same idea). > > While you are certainly entitled to your opinions, your credibility in > this newsgroup is so low that frankly I don't know why you even bother > to spout some of the drivel that you do... Just to satisfy your curiosity, it is know fact that Alesi had
a lot of talent when he was younger, but didn't produce result
because he was blindly faitfull to Ferrari, and Ferrari at that time
wasn't in its best years. If he drove for some other team, and there
were interest for him, he maybe wouldn't win a championship, but
he was capable for cca. 10 GP wins, for sure.
1989- In a first race for Tyrrell finishes 4th (was running 2nd )
!990- In a opening race at Phoenix, in Tyrrell, nearly defeats
Senna, in McLaren-Honda
From book: "At one point during season three teams
(Tyrrell, Williams and Ferrari ) believed that they had his
services for1991; he eventually chose Ferrari. If instead
he had moved to Williams, the recent history of Grand
Prix racing might be very different."
93-97 -He was teammate with Berger (10 GP wins ), in Ferrari
and Benetton, always (except bad 94 season ) better
than him.
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (8 lines)
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Just curious as to what criteria you use to judge "immense talent"? > You apply the label to Jean Alesi who has won precisely 1 GP out of > what, 200 starts while having a reputation for more than a few moments > of brainfade throughout his career (running the Benneton out of fuel > because he allegedly couldn't hear the pits calling him in for > example, or punting off his teammate at A-1 a couple of years ago).> So the polar opposite that F1 has become - blindindly fast cars and
> absurdly short braking zones is something to celebrate? Yes Nascar's
> "bumper-to-bumper" version of racing is nothing to submit as the
> greatest form of racing, but nor is 9-figure team budgets resulting in
> gadgetry-overkill and "lap-1, turn-1" racing. Passing for position
> due to engine failure is just as facile as any pass on Nascar's ovals.
As much as everyone doesn't seem to admit, racing is as much about the
machine as it is the driver. There are series that try to limit the machine
factor for entertainment reasons. I'm a fan of machinery, as much as a fan
of great drivers. I started watching F1 because I wanted to see the Ferrari
F1's fly around the track, not because they had one of the greatest drivers
in F1 history driving for them. When I watched my first F1 race, I could not
care less who was driving for Ferrari. So for me to watch a race were all
the machines are the same (or practicly the same) is pointless. Which is why
I'm not a big fan of Nascar, CART (although I do watch it, as it is fun to
watch at times), and Indy racing. Also, it would be hard to watch Nascar
knowing my road car has more gears than a Nascar (these are race cars
right?).
It's even simpler than that. Just about every current and former F1 driver
will readily admit that Alesi is a tremendously skilled driver.
David G Fisher
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0u29o$3m0$[email hidden]...
his
Quoted text (12 lines)
> Just to satisfy your curiosity, it is know fact that Alesi had > a lot of talent when he was younger, but didn't produce result > because he was blindly faitfull to Ferrari, and Ferrari at that time > wasn't in its best years. If he drove for some other team, and there > were interest for him, he maybe wouldn't win a championship, but > he was capable for cca. 10 GP wins, for sure. > > 1989- In a first race for Tyrrell finishes 4th (was running 2nd ) > !990- In a opening race at Phoenix, in Tyrrell, nearly defeats > Senna, in McLaren-Honda > From book: "At one point during season three teams > (Tyrrell, Williams and Ferrari ) believed that they hadQuoted text (24 lines)
> services for1991; he eventually chose Ferrari. If instead > he had moved to Williams, the recent history of Grand > Prix racing might be very different." > 93-97 -He was teammate with Berger (10 GP wins ), in Ferrari > and Benetton, always (except bad 94 season ) better > than him. > > > > "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Just curious as to what criteria you use to judge "immense talent"? > > You apply the label to Jean Alesi who has won precisely 1 GP out of > > what, 200 starts while having a reputation for more than a few moments > > of brainfade throughout his career (running the Benneton out of fuel > > because he allegedly couldn't hear the pits calling him in for > > example, or punting off his teammate at A-1 a couple of years ago). > > > > >Hi Mario,
AFAIR when Berger/Alesi changed cars with Schumacher (remember how at that
time in the first races they were driving more or less the same cars the
other had been driving before), they did not change race finishing
positions.
Schumacher immediately took the Ferrari - which had usually finished around
position 5-7 when driven by Berger/Alesi - onto the podium, while Berger /
Alesi in Schumachers world championship car finished around positions 5-7.
Maybe the numbers aren't entirely correct, but they illustrate what happened
at that time. Being a talented _driver_ isn't enough. To win races, you need
additional capabilities.
Achim
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0u109$9os0$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (21 lines)
> Just to satisfy your curiosity, it is know fact that Alesi had > a lot of talent when he was younger, but didn't produce result > because he was blindly faitfull to Ferrari, and Ferrari at that time > wasn't in its best years. If he drove for some other team, and there > were interest for him, he maybe wouldn't win a championship, but > he was capable for cca. 10 GP wins, for sure. > > > "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Just curious as to what criteria you use to judge "immense talent"? > > You apply the label to Jean Alesi who has won precisely 1 GP out of > > what, 200 starts while having a reputation for more than a few moments > > of brainfade throughout his career (running the Benneton out of fuel > > because he allegedly couldn't hear the pits calling him in for > > example, or punting off his teammate at A-1 a couple of years ago). > > >
David G Fisher wrote:
>
> It's even simpler than that. Just about every current and former F1 driver
> will readily admit that Alesi is a tremendously skilled driver.
True indeed. If only he could set-up a car! But the fact is he's a
complete f*ckwit in that department.
If he'd been racing 50 years ago he would have been one of the greatest,
imho of course.
Gerry
"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0ud27$n2kls$[email hidden]...
>Being a talented _driver_ isn't enough. To win races, you need
> additional capabilities.
>
> Achim
I totaly agree with you. Setuping the car, saving tires,
being a smart a$$, these are all driving skills, which all come
into play. As DGF said, Alesi couldn't setup the car. Plus,
in his best days Ferrari really didn't work.
To Richard Walker. Since 1984, and this is full 18
years, the championship winner was either in Williams or
McLaren. Or his name is Micheal Schumacher. In 94 and 95
Williams was so good that even Damon Hill had a chance.
I'll never forget 1994 race on Sennas home soil. Senna had
pole, fastest car, experience. And then Schumacher started
to breath at his neck. He was braking him from turn to turn,
until he didn't brake "the best driver the world has ever seen",
just like that.
All those drivers for the past 18 years were nothing before
they came to Williams/McLaren (and after ), and all those other
teams were nothing before MS sat in them. Just to remind you
on 1987 season. Pique, Mansell and Senna had the same engine.
And Senna wasn't in some Benetton, but in a top team, Lotus.
Sennas score? Last of the three. Can you imagine MS in that
position. No way.
And further. While MS is driving in second class teams, for
big money, and still winning championship, Senna, I forgot what
year that was, when his top team faded, was offering other top
team to drive for free, just to be in a top team, knowing that
otherwise he cannot score nothing. Team owner, naturaly took
him, pleased that finaly he paids driver the amount of money
he is worth. "The best driver the world has ever seen". If I
remember correctly Prost wasn't too pleased with that.
In message <a0uv81$ne9$[email hidden]>
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Since 1984, and this is full 18 years, the championship winner was either
> in Williams or McLaren.
So? They employed some very good drivers.
Of course, you have to have a decent mix of driver and car. I'm sure
neither Senna or Schumacher could win a race/title in a Minardi!
> Or his name is Micheal Schumacher. In 94 and 95 Williams was so good that
> even Damon Hill had a chance.
I really don't agree. The 1994 Williams was *not* a good car to begin with.
And in 1995, Williams and Benetton shared the works Renault engine (perhaps
an indication, by Renault, of how poor the '94 Williams was?).
Schumacher also feels the need to have his team mate:
a) chosen by him
b) contracted to finish behind him
which seems, well... odd.
Senna raced alongside other top drivers - both in the same team, and in
other top teams. Schumacher has raced against, erm... no-one *that*
spectacular.
--
Richard.
"In Penny Lane there is a barber showing photographs."
Thanks for the post Tom. You always seem to have something thought
provoking to say. I only have a couple of comments, and so snipped
much of your original post.
"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<%3NX7.28804$uM.247135@rwcrnsc54>...
> [I would like to add: Nothing about NASCAR racing is "redneck" today.
> Certainly, not any more than F1 racing is only about the European "elite
> socialites" - both are false terms based on the heritage of the two sports,
> and do not apply to them today. - IMHO].
LOL. I guess you didn't hear Sterling Marlin at the Awards Banquet.
I am from Tennessee and even *I* had a hard time understanding what he
said. OK, OK, mostly kidding here. But just check out some of the
fans in the stands the next time you visit Darlington Raceway. Take a
look out over infield at all the motor homes with Southern Crosses
flying over them... nothing redneck indeed.
> 3. I'm not going into a long definition/description of the two forms of
> motor racing - but perhaps there is a good website that does this and it
> will be useful to have it posted here? I hope somebody can do that.
Uhhh... one is run on an oval track and the other is run on a road
course? Do I get an award?
I think you forgot to throw in about 15% bad mojo, gremlins, wild
hair/body orifice interaction and planetary alignment... to both
equations.
> 4. Whether one personally likes one form of the motorsport over the other,
> is mostly just that, personal taste. However, I have found that when
> someone gains deeper knowledge and understanding of the "other form" they
> don't care for as much.....that tends to change their thoughts about it.
> Isn't that just human nature?
I've never watched rally racing until yesterday when I was waiting on
the Citrus Bowl to start. Now I am thinking about a rally sim. Any
recommendations?
Happy New Year,
Gerald
Quoted text (13 lines)
> I would dare to say only this: Road racing is much more about the race car > driver, and the outcome of road races has more to do with the driving skills > during the race, less to do with the pit crew, race strategy, pitting > strategy and so forth. Oval racing is the opposite, it is more like a chess > game and the outcome of oval races is less dependent on actually race > driving skills than pit crew and strategy. Notice, I didn't say any of the > skills to win a race of both types....were completely missing in either form > of the motorsport. Maybe it would be safe to say something like: In road > racing, the outcome is based something like 60% on the driving skills and > 40% on strategy, crew and team.....and in oval racing, the outcome is > something like 40% driving skills and 60% strategy, crew and team. I don't > know that this is a completely fair statement, but it seems like it is to > me.
Bob wrote:
Bob -- Simply put: DGF hate JPM because JPM loves GPL and presumably he
likes JA because JA, presumably, likes F1CR or evo 4x4.
> While you are certainly entitled to your opinions, your credibility in
> this newsgroup is so low that frankly I don't know why you even bother
> to spout some of the drivel that you do...
Hehe, just think of DFG as the village idiot of ras.
Gerry
PS I'll just leave you with this quote:
"I have a very good life, and I made it this way by avoiding
the way of thinking of "the average guy"." -- David G Fisher, talking
about his life living rough on the street.
Quoted text (19 lines)
> > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated) is > >38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCAR drivers who > >are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because the physical > >demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers. > > > > Just curious as to what criteria you use to judge "immense talent"? > You apply the label to Jean Alesi who has won precisely 1 GP out of > what, 200 starts while having a reputation for more than a few moments > of brainfade throughout his career (running the Benneton out of fuel > because he allegedly couldn't hear the pits calling him in for > example, or punting off his teammate at A-1 a couple of years ago). > Yet, on the other hand we have JP Montoya who has won exactly the same > number of GPs as Mr. Alesi in a much shorter time frame, who you have > frequently slammed in this newsgroup as being some kind of no-talent > hack (not your exact words, but the same idea). Thanks for your answer, although you somehow manage to miss
to read my post onto wich you are replying, lol.
If you have read it you'll know that they didn't have to employ
them. They were getting them for free.
Any car in wich Damon Hill manage to be second or even win a
championship is excellent car.
Schumacher did race agains't top drivers. I wrote what he did to
Senna in that excellent car. Also I wrote how Senna finished when he was
in the same position.
Co-drivers of Senna:
84 Johnny Cecotto (who? )- in only race they together finished Senna was
7th,Cecotto 9th
Stefan Johansson - In a first race for Toleman, without previous
practice, 4th
85 Elio de Angelis - at the end of the season Senna 38 points, de Angelis
33 points
86 Johnny Dumfries (who? )
87 Satoru Nakajima (who? )
All that Senna showed during this four years is that he is equal
with Johansson and de Angelis, and that he is a very dirty driver, and if
you see him in your mirrors, you better run for your life. Good drivers use
their skills to gain a position, not their shoulders.
"Richard Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> So? They employed some very good drivers.
>
> I really don't agree. The 1994 Williams was *not* a good car to beginwith.
> And in 1995, Williams and Benetton shared the works Renault engine(perhaps
Quoted text (18 lines)
> an indication, by Renault, of how poor the '94 Williams was?). > > Schumacher also feels the need to have his team mate: > > a) chosen by him > b) contracted to finish behind him > > which seems, well... odd. > > Senna raced alongside other top drivers - both in the same team, and in > other top teams. Schumacher has raced against, erm... no-one *that* > spectacular. > > > -- > Richard. > > "In Penny Lane there is a barber showing photographs."Guys, can we just let this whole argument die peacefully? Most people have a
"favorite" racing series. No amout of discussion, argument, statistics or
name-calling is going to make ANYONE change his mind about his favorite. It
only causes bad feelings, as we've seen. As for the "best" driver(s), it's a
moot point. Even the IROC series is a joke, given its NASCAR slant, and almost
exclusively american series drivers. This isn't the late 60's and before where
the drivers would run anything in any country, as long as it had wheels.
Schumacher will never compete on a track with Gordon, who will never be on
track with McRae. These guys may be the best in their respective race series,
but you can't directly compare them. Logically, it's flat out impossible...
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Even Johnny Herbert won 2 races in the 95' Bennetton, it must have been the
best car.
"Richard Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In message <a0uv81$ne9$[email hidden]>
> "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> > Since 1984, and this is full 18 years, the championship winner waseither
that
> > even Damon Hill had a chance.
>
> I really don't agree. The 1994 Williams was *not* a good car to beginwith.
> And in 1995, Williams and Benetton shared the works Renault engine(perhaps
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > in Williams or McLaren. > > So? They employed some very good drivers. > > Of course, you have to have a decent mix of driver and car. I'm sure > neither Senna or Schumacher could win a race/title in a Minardi! > > > Or his name is Micheal Schumacher. In 94 and 95 Williams was so goodQuoted text (18 lines)
> an indication, by Renault, of how poor the '94 Williams was?). > > Schumacher also feels the need to have his team mate: > > a) chosen by him > b) contracted to finish behind him > > which seems, well... odd. > > Senna raced alongside other top drivers - both in the same team, and in > other top teams. Schumacher has raced against, erm... no-one *that* > spectacular. > > > -- > Richard. > > "In Penny Lane there is a barber showing photographs."If they had points scoring positions down to 10 or 12, like CART there would
be a reason fot TV cameras to follow battles further down the field.
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (75 lines)
> I really, really enjoy F1, have for years, but boy, you hit my biggest > gripe in terms of tv coverage; all that's ever shown is the first 2-3 cars > for the whole race. > Show the entire field, throughout the race. > > -John > > > Mario Petrinovic <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a0s4mg$booa$[email hidden]... > > Thanks anyway for replying me. Because, I feel so > > isolated in this NG, and am always getting some strange > > answers, wich I don't understend. > > We were basicaly talked about difference between > > American and European look at racing. The major thesis of > > Europeans is, something like, "I don't like strategy, I like > > real racing.". > > Well, simply, I don't understand it. Because, 1) there is > > strategy in F1 ((just ) a little different, but, neverthelles, strongly > > present ), and 2) man, if you want real racing, Americans still > > do it much better (CART ). > > I simply cannot understand how a racing fan can put so > > much in F1, where, 1) during TV coverage, you see most of > > the time leader driving alone, sometimes you see some battle up > > to the first six, the rest like don't exist. 2) where the drivers who > > are really racing hard are the one at the back, because , with > > bad equipment they try to be in pace with drivers with good > > equipment, and 3) all atention is on a guy with the best equipment, > > driving comfortably all alone at the lead. > > 4) where most famous track is the one on whitch, by design, > > racing can happen only by accident. > > 5) where there is a little bit, or no at all, overtaking. At the > > same time, racing form with a lot of overtaking, is incredibly > > dull to F1 fan. > > To make all things more interesting, it is actually me who > > have been watching F1 races from 1973, and who was all the time > > F1 fan, till I didn't have a chance to watch American races via > > satelite. > > > > Happy New Year > > > > > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:13:26 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic" > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > Whereever there are tires, there is tire saving driving. > > > >Todays F1 races are won or lost on tires. You didn't see > > > >that driver who manage to stay 1-2 laps longer on fuel win > > > >races because of less ammount of fuel and better tires. Is > > > >this not a strategy, lol. It is tires war currently going on. > > > >What kind of argument this is. Are you all blind. > > > > > > if you visit this newsgroup once in a while you might know that I > > > kinda like GPL, a racing sim based on the '67 season.. where tires > > > were not half as important as in nowadays Nascar. > > > Besides that I think there is still a major difference in stragegie > > > between Nascar and current F1 races but I'm a bit too tired to discuss > > > that right now. > > > > > > HAPPY NEWYEAR > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
AndrewCounsell wrote:
>
> Even Johnny Herbert won 2 races in the 95' Bennetton, it must have been the
> best car.
They say in motor racing that to finish first, first you must finish and
Johnny did that twice in 95 when all the other front-runners failed to
make it.
Best comment in this thread yet.
-John
EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Guys, can we just let this whole argument die peacefully? Most peoplehave a
> "favorite" racing series. No amout of discussion, argument, statistics or
> name-calling is going to make ANYONE change his mind about his favorite.It
> only causes bad feelings, as we've seen. As for the "best" driver(s),it's a
> moot point. Even the IROC series is a joke, given its NASCAR slant, andalmost
> exclusively american series drivers. This isn't the late 60's and beforewhere
> the drivers would run anything in any country, as long as it had wheels.
> Schumacher will never compete on a track with Gordon, who will never be on
> track with McRae. These guys may be the best in their respective raceseries,
> but you can't directly compare them. Logically, it's flat outimpossible...
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats Good point. Though you'd think the sponsors of these cars would put a bit
of pressure on the FIA/TV folks to give them some air time too.
-John
AndrewCounsell <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0vlj5$h04$[email hidden]...
> If they had points scoring positions down to 10 or 12, like CART therewould
> be a reason fot TV cameras to follow battles further down the field.
> "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > I really, really enjoy F1, have for years, but boy, you hit my biggest
> > gripe in terms of tv coverage; all that's ever shown is the first 2-3cars
strongly
the
discuss
Quoted text (17 lines)
> > for the whole race. > > Show the entire field, throughout the race. > > > > -John > > > > > > Mario Petrinovic <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:a0s4mg$booa$[email hidden]... > > > Thanks anyway for replying me. Because, I feel so > > > isolated in this NG, and am always getting some strange > > > answers, wich I don't understend. > > > We were basicaly talked about difference between > > > American and European look at racing. The major thesis of > > > Europeans is, something like, "I don't like strategy, I like > > > real racing.". > > > Well, simply, I don't understand it. Because, 1) there is > > > strategy in F1 ((just ) a little different, but, neverthelles,Quoted text (13 lines)
> > > present ), and 2) man, if you want real racing, Americans still > > > do it much better (CART ). > > > I simply cannot understand how a racing fan can put so > > > much in F1, where, 1) during TV coverage, you see most of > > > the time leader driving alone, sometimes you see some battle up > > > to the first six, the rest like don't exist. 2) where the drivers who > > > are really racing hard are the one at the back, because , with > > > bad equipment they try to be in pace with drivers with good > > > equipment, and 3) all atention is on a guy with the best equipment, > > > driving comfortably all alone at the lead. > > > 4) where most famous track is the one on whitch, by design, > > > racing can happen only by accident. > > > 5) where there is a little bit, or no at all, overtaking. AtQuoted text (28 lines)
> > > same time, racing form with a lot of overtaking, is incredibly > > > dull to F1 fan. > > > To make all things more interesting, it is actually me who > > > have been watching F1 races from 1973, and who was all the time > > > F1 fan, till I didn't have a chance to watch American races via > > > satelite. > > > > > > Happy New Year > > > > > > > > > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:13:26 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic" > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Whereever there are tires, there is tire saving driving. > > > > >Todays F1 races are won or lost on tires. You didn't see > > > > >that driver who manage to stay 1-2 laps longer on fuel win > > > > >races because of less ammount of fuel and better tires. Is > > > > >this not a strategy, lol. It is tires war currently going on. > > > > >What kind of argument this is. Are you all blind. > > > > > > > > if you visit this newsgroup once in a while you might know that I > > > > kinda like GPL, a racing sim based on the '67 season.. where tires > > > > were not half as important as in nowadays Nascar. > > > > Besides that I think there is still a major difference in stragegie > > > > between Nascar and current F1 races but I'm a bit too tired toQuoted text (17 lines)
> > > > that right now. > > > > > > > > HAPPY NEWYEAR > > > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who is Johnny Herbert. Is this a guy who overtook in
"Eau Rouge"? I mean, he is for sure much better driver then
Damon Hill, and jet he didn't won championship.
BTW, they will never score 12 positions. It is to much for
F1 fan to remember. As much, everything over 2 hour block is
to long to watch. This is why F1 has much more spectators then
CART.
"AndrewCounsell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a0vj9p$1sj$[email hidden]...
> Even Johnny Herbert won 2 races in the 95' Bennetton, it must have beenthe
> best car.
>
In message <a0vgmc$21m9$[email hidden]>
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> If you have read it you'll know that they didn't have to employ
> them. They were getting them for free.
Who is 'them'? What were 'they' getting?!
> Any car in wich Damon Hill manage to be second or even win a
> championship is excellent car.
The 1994 Williams was not an excellent car. The Benetton was better in the
chassis department.
Senna has two DNFs, followed by a race in which he lost his life. I
*honestly* don't believe that he was 'feeling the Schumacher pressure' in
any of those races. I thought the bit you wrote about that, particularly
regarding Imola, was in rather bad taste.
> Schumacher did race agains't top drivers. I wrote what he did to
> Senna in that excellent car. Also I wrote how Senna finished when he was
> in the same position.
Schumacher raced against Senna once or twice. Senna was racing against
Psort, Piquet, Berger and Mansell on a regular basis.
> All that Senna showed during this four years is that he is equal
> with Johansson and de Angelis, and that he is a very dirty driver, and if
> you see him in your mirrors, you better run for your life. Good drivers
> use their skills to gain a position, not their shoulders.
I agree that Senna could be a bit rough - but don't you think Schumacher
does the same?!
--
Richard.
"I'm back in the U.S.S.R. You don't know how lucky you are boy."
Yes, fully. :-)
Pete
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c304296$0$208$[email hidden]...
> ok, but you see my point ?
>
>
Hi Rich
Senna made offer to one who was to be next best, I forgot who,
but they were getting new engine or something like that, to drive for
free, just to drive for that team. I don't want to search the books now,
but I think Prost was alredy in that team. So, Prost was so pi$$ed off,
that he left, I think to Ferrari. Somebody correct me about year, or
team, but all else is known true.
Regarding Senna-Schumacher issue, I was describing 1994
Brasilian GP. If you don't believe, find somewhere tape, and take a
look. You can clearly see how MS is braking Senna, until Senna spun
off, clearly under the pressure. This was his first DNF that year.
Senna raced against Piquet, and Mansell. I alredy described you
how that finished. Do you want me to do it one more time? Senna was
last of the three.
I know that every driver who competed with Senna looks much
bigger, and every that competed with MS suddenly pale. If my grandma
competed with Senna, she would also look bigger.
Senna wasn't a bit rough, you should see that. Senna was without
any measure. Nobady of other drivers, even wonted to speak to him.
Regarding MS, everything except Villeneuve thing, wasn't his fault. They
made new god look like devil, because you cannot have two gods. In
Sennas case, hi was deliberate wrecker.
Further, you should see those driving errors. Senna had more driving
errors in one race, then MS had in whole his career. You were never sure
if Senna would finish the race. That's why he have such a bad record.
Look , I will repeat all this to you how many more times you want,
if you want me to, until you finaly get it. I been there, seen that, all the
facts are telling that. I watched F1, 10 years prior Senna even arrived.
When Senna arrived, I already had great experience in watching races,
it wasn't all new to me. Prior Senna I watched Lauda, Fittipaldi, Piquet,
even Jacques father.
Don't take it wrong. See you
Mario
"Well theUkraine girls really nock me out, They leave the West behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout, That Georgia's always on my mind"
BTW, I'm not so fond of Russia. In fact, I don't like it at all. - lol
"Richard Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
the
if
Quoted text (12 lines)
> In message <a0vgmc$21m9$[email hidden]> > "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > If you have read it you'll know that they didn't have to employ > > them. They were getting them for free. > > Who is 'them'? What were 'they' getting?! > > > Any car in wich Damon Hill manage to be second or even win a > > championship is excellent car. > > The 1994 Williams was not an excellent car. The Benetton was better inQuoted text (16 lines)
> chassis department. > > Senna has two DNFs, followed by a race in which he lost his life. I > *honestly* don't believe that he was 'feeling the Schumacher pressure' in > any of those races. I thought the bit you wrote about that, particularly > regarding Imola, was in rather bad taste. > > > Schumacher did race agains't top drivers. I wrote what he did to > > Senna in that excellent car. Also I wrote how Senna finished when he was > > in the same position. > > Schumacher raced against Senna once or twice. Senna was racing against > Psort, Piquet, Berger and Mansell on a regular basis. > > > All that Senna showed during this four years is that he is equal > > with Johansson and de Angelis, and that he is a very dirty driver, andQuoted text (11 lines)
> > you see him in your mirrors, you better run for your life. Good drivers > > use their skills to gain a position, not their shoulders. > > I agree that Senna could be a bit rough - but don't you think Schumacher > does the same?! > > > -- > Richard. > > "I'm back in the U.S.S.R. You don't know how lucky you are boy."
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
> Regarding Senna-Schumacher issue, I was describing 1994
> Brasilian GP. If you don't believe, find somewhere tape, and take a
> look. You can clearly see how MS is braking Senna, until Senna spun
> off, clearly under the pressure. This was his first DNF that year.
Get your facts right! Senna was BEHIND Schumacher, not in front and on
the defensive, but rather, pushing his car to it's limit in an attempt
to catch MS.
In message <a0vsqo$2ope$[email hidden]>
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Senna made offer to one who was to be next best, I forgot who, but
> they were getting new engine or something like that, to drive for free,
> just to drive for that team.
I believe that during 1992, Senna offered to drive for Williams, for free.
However, it didn't happen. Williams put Prost in the car.
> I don't want to search the books now, but I think Prost was alredy in that
> team. So, Prost was so pi$$ed off, that he left, I think to Ferrari.
> Somebody correct me about year, or team, but all else is known true.
Nah. Prost left McLaren to go to Ferrari, then was sacked! ;-)
> Regarding Senna-Schumacher issue, I was describing 1994
> Brasilian GP. If you don't believe, find somewhere tape, and take a
> look. You can clearly see how MS is braking Senna, until Senna spun
> off, clearly under the pressure. This was his first DNF that year.
Ah, yes, the Brazilian GP. That would indeed be a mistake (although *very*
similar things happened to Mansell and Hill, also driving for Williams!).
However, that's possibly *one* such error. How many has Schumacher made?
> Don't take it wrong. See you
We'll have to agree to disagree!
--
Richard.
"C'mon... Please please me, whoa yeah, like I please you."
"Richard Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> We'll have to agree to disagree!
> --
> Richard.
>
> "C'mon... Please please me, whoa yeah, like I please you."
Ok mate. Lol. It was interesting. It's good to talk racing.
They are both good (Senna and MS ), otherwise will not
come even close to F1. Man, I'll never grow up.
"Life is very short and there's no time
For fussing and fighting my friend"
Yes. It looks like the stuff I was talking about was up till 21st
lap, when Schumacher came to lead, and then Senna spun in attempt
to catch.
Thanks
"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Get your facts right! Senna was BEHIND Schumacher, not in front and on
> the defensive, but rather, pushing his car to it's limit in an attempt
> to catch MS.
And obviously not being from the southern part of the US has limited your
intelligence...Moron. Where a person is born or raised has very little to
do with natural talent. Some have the ability to drive, others the ability
play sports, others the ability to simply be a better jerk than those around
them, but not because of where they are born.
And as far as life in general goes, I would much rather live mine around the
type people who the south is remebered for. People who are not afraid to
work for what they believe in and desire, and people who would give you the
shirt off their back to help you if you needed it, whether you request the
help or not. Those, sir, are the real people of the US.
So if you want to call me a redneck, then go right ahead. Because as long
as I am a redneck, no one will confuse me with your type. That I am proud
of.
Glen Pittman
Officially now a Redneck.
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:B9rY7.347259$[email hidden]...
redneck...he's
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:RKqY7.2270$V35.26042@rwcrnsc53... > > > > "jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]... > > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as aQuoted text (15 lines)
> a > > Californian by way of Indiana. > > Talks like one. :-) > > >Simply because drivers originate from a > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit > > their abilities? > > Definitely. > > David G Fisher > > >Put Jeff Gordon into the same situation as MS as far as experience in Open
wheel F1 parade cars go and you would have a great race indeed. When the
cars are equal as much as they are in Nascar, driver error costs a ton of
track position. In F1, no one knows whether the driver makes an error or
not most times, because there is no one close enough to make it noticeable.
Lose a half a second in one turn and no one would notice 95% of the time.
There are 10-12 more turns to make it back up. Same thing in Nascar just
screwed up half your lap. So it could be argued that mistakes are more
costly in Nascar, so those who repeatedly win, must make very few of them.
"jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:5dsY7.57108$[email hidden]...
drivers
> > are Human..they make mistakes. Nascar drivers do...Cart driversdo...That
> > human element is part of what makes racing what it is. Otherwise wecould
oval
> > event in the schedule, I think you would find a Kenny Brack or a Jeff
> Gordon
> > on a short list of replacement drivers for some of the F1 regulars.Maybe
> > not at first, but if an oval was a regular event, sooner or later, an F1
> > team would bring in a ringer.(think of Ford who has teams based in both
> > series, the cross promotion value would be tremendous).
>
> Umm. I think Montoya would do very well on an oval in F1 (if theimpossible
> happened). Actually, I think Villenueve would do very well as well. As for
> that matter, I really don't think any team would replace their driverswith
> a Jeff Gordan or a Tony Stewert. My opinion is that Micheal Schumacherwould
> beat Jeff Gordan on any track in an equal F1 car, Oval or not.
>
> > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as aredneck...he's
> a
> > Californian by way of Indiana. Simply because drivers originate from a
> > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit
> > their abilities? Tony Stewart a redneck? Robbie Gordon? KennySchrader
of
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > " > > Sorry to keep picking on you but.... > > :-) We all have opinions. > > > > My point is NOT to rag F1 drivers...but to remind everyone thatQuoted text (8 lines)
> > just hook up the cars to computer ports, run the data, and declare the > > winner. > > I did not say they were perfect. But they make very few mistakes. I would > say the fewest mistakes in all of car racing. > > > > ..If you had F1 drivers who normally ran road courses and dropped anQuoted text (7 lines)
> > races Nascar, Nascar trucks, dirt track cars, short track cars, his idea > of > > a vacation is to find another racetrack to drive at...Can any one of the > > Super F1 drivers boast his range of experience? > > > Yes, I agree, Jeff Gordan is not a redneck. But you put him in a TV > commerical with junk cars in front of a house, and he would not look outQuoted text (9 lines)
> place, my opinion. > Well, Rubens and Micheal Schumacher both raced go carts during the off > season. I don't know anything about Nascar trucks, there is no way in the > world I would watch that. That is the bigest joke in motor racing in my > opinion. I'll watch just about all types of racing ( I have even watched > drag racing, when I've very bored), but I draw the line at true, diehard, > redneck racing. > >>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote
> Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
> competition???
The only driver capable of beating him with an equal car... Jacques
Villeneuve.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www3.sympatico.ca/yves.menard/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
43 cars, and maybe 1 or 2 replace the driver for Road Courses. And even
then, the Road Course drivers that are brought in can't beat the normal fast
Nascar Drivers.
"jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]...
> > Some of the best racing I've seen in 2001 was on Speedvision - the
> > Speedvision GT and Touring Car champsionships. Lots of beating and
> > banging, spin outs, and close finishes. Great stuff.
>
> Great racing? Beating, banging and spinouts is great racing? Huh? Dependson
> if you want to watch great drivers (who rarely make mistakes), or rednecks
> who that are so bad, they have fill in drivers for the road courses inthere
> own series.
>
>
In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast"
<[email hidden]> writes:
Yes, but do ANY sponsors really have any weight with the TV people...? They're
not advertising on that station, so I don't see them having any clout.
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Good point. Though you'd think the sponsors of these cars would put a bit >of pressure on the FIA/TV folks to give them some air time too. > >-John > > >AndrewCounsell <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:a0vlj5$h04$[email hidden]... >> If they had points scoring positions down to 10 or 12, like CART there >would >> be a reason fot TV cameras to follow battles further down the field.When you can't make the torque, you substitute with extra gears....
"jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:hfwY7.59355$[email hidden]...
machine
> factor for entertainment reasons. I'm a fan of machinery, as much as a fan
> of great drivers. I started watching F1 because I wanted to see theFerrari
> F1's fly around the track, not because they had one of the greatestdrivers
> in F1 history driving for them. When I watched my first F1 race, I couldnot
> care less who was driving for Ferrari. So for me to watch a race were all
> the machines are the same (or practicly the same) is pointless. Which iswhy
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > So the polar opposite that F1 has become - blindindly fast cars and > > absurdly short braking zones is something to celebrate? Yes Nascar's > > "bumper-to-bumper" version of racing is nothing to submit as the > > greatest form of racing, but nor is 9-figure team budgets resulting in > > gadgetry-overkill and "lap-1, turn-1" racing. Passing for position > > due to engine failure is just as facile as any pass on Nascar's ovals. > > As much as everyone doesn't seem to admit, racing is as much about the > machine as it is the driver. There are series that try to limit theQuoted text (8 lines)
> I'm not a big fan of Nascar, CART (although I do watch it, as it is fun to > watch at times), and Indy racing. Also, it would be hard to watch Nascar > knowing my road car has more gears than a Nascar (these are race cars > right?). > > > >Could be the water. Could also be the fact that we in the south are
genetically altered to be superior. Michael Jordan was supposed to be the
first Black to be a Champion in nascar, but somehow found his way over to
the basketball Court. Wish we could have saved the resources wasted there.
Great Kid, would've been a great driver, course, his legs were a little to
long for most of the cars raced elsewhere. Maybe it is in the water. We
grow people to big here to fit in those little cars other people like to
race. Wanna Wrassle?
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:kFqY7.347157$[email hidden]...
almost
> completely from one region (the south), in one country, possibly be of the
> same level of talent as drivers from another series (F1) that come fromall
boring
> > to
> > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers arethe
The
> > list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that forNascar.
Quoted text (10 lines)
> What did I say about the motorcycle race? > > As for the aids, just about every current F1 driver has already proved he > could handle the cars without them. The drivers were actually sliding the > cars more this year becasue they were going faster and dancing even closer > to the edge. > > A bunch of old, fat, farts in NASCAR are never going to be close in talent > to the F1 drivers. I said this onece before (and got a predictable > response)........how can a group of drivers from one series which areQuoted text (21 lines)
> over the world? Is there something in the water "down there"? > > David G Fisher > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:teqY7.187$[email hidden]... > > > > "jlohman" > > I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racing > fan..Heck > > I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have > > preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, But touring > car, > > Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught my eye... > Thes > > absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at > > Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So let me > play > > the Devil's advocate for a moment or two... > > > > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quiteQuoted text (25 lines)
> > best > > > in the world. > > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye drivers > > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't need a > > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the pitspeed > > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a computer > to > > get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just what makes > them > > the best? > > > > > The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world. > > Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resemble the > > Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnation of > > Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? or > Phillip > > Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch? > > > > > The cars are the most advanced cars in the world. > > Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them > > moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another program to > keep > > the tires from spinning. > > But two outta three ain't bad... > > Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it's appeal.Quoted text (8 lines)
> > But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be > > improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans. > > dave henrie > > > > > > > >Still doesn't mean that the best F1 driver is better than the best Nascar
Driver though. If talent is what you are discussing, then the chance of the
best coming from the south is jsut as likely as from anywhere else in the
world. There is only one person who can be THE BEST. And he probably don't
even drive for a living.....
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TurY7.347326$[email hidden]...
didn't
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=%25oY97.58361%24EP6.13702118%4
>0news1.rdc2.pa.home.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Drec.autos.simulators%2BDav
> id%2BG%2BFisher%2Btricycles%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch
>
> My comments were just a joke (except the part about ymenard :-) ) andmeant
> to needle you since you kind of ripped F1. I made clear that clear in a
> subsequent reply. I used to have a motorcycle and loved it.
>
> If I actually did half of the bad things I get accused of here, I couldsee
in
> > Nascar type racing, the advantage of world wide numbers is deminished.
>
> Not diminished. Just a fact. They don't come from a large talent pool
> compared to drivers from F1. If they all came from one city, state, orthree
> states, I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with me at all.
>
>
> > > BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated)
> is
> > > 38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCARdrivers
> > who
> > > are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because thephysical
marathoners.
> :-)
>
> David G Fisher
>
>
>
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ScrY7.3984$dK4.55407@rwcrnsc52... > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:27rY7.347252$[email hidden]... > > > You didn't tell me what I said about the motorcycle race, and youQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > really answer my question. > > Sorry ...something about 4 kids on trikes running around the block > could > > be a good race. > > You jogged my memory so I looked up the thread. > >Quoted text (8 lines)
> why some of you would think I was such a jerk. > > > > There is absolutely, positively, no way a group of drivers that come > > almost > > > entirely from one region in one country can have the same talents as > > drivers > > > that are chosen from a MUCH larger talent pool. > > agreed to a point. Since the larger pool of talent has no experienceQuoted text (14 lines)
> > > demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers. > > > > Physical demands yes indeed...but would they all be so skinny if they > had > > the room WC drivers have? Part of the physical fitness is merely to > remain > > waifish enough to climb inside. But that aside, the F1 car does put > > tremendous physical stresses on a driver...in 1.5 hour blocks. How long > is > > the Charlotte 600 race? Just as Marathoners are built different from > > Sprinters, so too the F1 driver vs the Nascar driver. > > I wouldn't say NASCAR drivers bear much resemblance to serious> When you can't make the torque, you substitute with extra gears....
Right, I forgot, silly me, these Nascars also wiegh more than my road car.
So, what your saying that the FIA decided that F1 cars did not have enough
torque, and that because of this they allowed the cars to have more than 4
gears? This is so stupid, this is exactly why I think Nascar fans are
idiots.
I really do need to make a filter to elimate all these Nascar post. I'm sure
I'm on several ignore list as well. :-)
You obviously didn't read this whole thread.
We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to come from
a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as a group
they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a
much, much larger talent pool.
I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that he is
certain to be lacking talent.
Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize.
David G Fisher
"Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> And obviously not being from the southern part of the US has limited your
> intelligence...Moron. Where a person is born or raised has very little to
> do with natural talent. Some have the ability to drive, others theability
> play sports, others the ability to simply be a better jerk than thosearound
> them, but not because of where they are born.
>
> And as far as life in general goes, I would much rather live mine aroundthe
> type people who the south is remebered for. People who are not afraid to
> work for what they believe in and desire, and people who would give youthe
limit
Quoted text (29 lines)
> shirt off their back to help you if you needed it, whether you request the > help or not. Those, sir, are the real people of the US. > > So if you want to call me a redneck, then go right ahead. Because as long > as I am a redneck, no one will confuse me with your type. That I am proud > of. > > Glen Pittman > Officially now a Redneck. > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:B9rY7.347259$[email hidden]... > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:RKqY7.2270$V35.26042@rwcrnsc53... > > > > > > "jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]... > > > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a > redneck...he's > > a > > > Californian by way of Indiana. > > > > Talks like one. :-) > > > > >Simply because drivers originate from a > > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehowQuoted text (10 lines)
> > > their abilities? > > > > Definitely. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > Don't know in the FIA world, but that's a good question. In my stupid
Nascar fan world(see Sir Troll's post above<G>), for good or bad, the
sponsors have a LOT of impact on tv coverage; they all want their car to be
shown at some point, and not all advertise on the station involved.
FOX can speak for trying to limit the exposure of those sponsors who
didn't choose FOX to advertise on :) I think their, cough, ears<G>, are
still burning :)
-John
EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast"
> <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> > Good point. Though you'd think the sponsors of these cars would put abit
They're
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (12 lines)
> >of pressure on the FIA/TV folks to give them some air time too. > > > >-John > > > > > >AndrewCounsell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:a0vlj5$h04$[email hidden]... > >> If they had points scoring positions down to 10 or 12, like CART there > >would > >> be a reason fot TV cameras to follow battles further down the field. > > Yes, but do ANY sponsors really have any weight with the TV people...?Quoted text (9 lines)
> not advertising on that station, so I don't see them having any clout. > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beatsOh, my manners certainly allow it. But unfortunately for you, only when
appropriate, which in this case, is not.
You responded...
>Simply because drivers originate from a
> paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit
> their abilities?
Definitely.
But that doesn't imply that because they are from the south, they lack
talent? Are abilities and talent not extremely similar?
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Z4PY7.351109$[email hidden]...
> You obviously didn't read this whole thread.
>
> We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to comefrom
> a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as a group
> they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a
> much, much larger talent pool.
>
> I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that heis
your
> > intelligence...Moron. Where a person is born or raised has very littleto
to
> > work for what they believe in and desire, and people who would give you
> the
> > shirt off their back to help you if you needed it, whether you requestthe
> > help or not. Those, sir, are the real people of the US.
> >
> > So if you want to call me a redneck, then go right ahead. Because aslong
> > as I am a redneck, no one will confuse me with your type. That I amproud
Quoted text (10 lines)
> certain to be lacking talent. > > Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize. > > David G Fisher > > > "Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > And obviously not being from the southern part of the US has limitedQuoted text (9 lines)
> > do with natural talent. Some have the ability to drive, others the > ability > > play sports, others the ability to simply be a better jerk than those > around > > them, but not because of where they are born. > > > > And as far as life in general goes, I would much rather live mine around > the > > type people who the south is remebered for. People who are not afraidQuoted text (37 lines)
> > of. > > > > Glen Pittman > > Officially now a Redneck. > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:B9rY7.347259$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:RKqY7.2270$V35.26042@rwcrnsc53... > > > > > > > > "jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]... > > > > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a > > redneck...he's > > > a > > > > Californian by way of Indiana. > > > > > > Talks like one. :-) > > > > > > >Simply because drivers originate from a > > > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow > limit > > > > their abilities? > > > > > > Definitely. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Allowed, or needed?
"jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:fMOY7.69471$%[email hidden]...
sure
> I'm on several ignore list as well. :-)
>
>
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > When you can't make the torque, you substitute with extra gears.... > > Right, I forgot, silly me, these Nascars also wiegh more than my road car. > > So, what your saying that the FIA decided that F1 cars did not have enough > torque, and that because of this they allowed the cars to have more than 4 > gears? This is so stupid, this is exactly why I think Nascar fans are > idiots. > > I really do need to make a filter to elimate all these Nascar post. I'mIn article <Z4PY7.351109$[email hidden]>, "David G
Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:
The question:
>> > >Simply because drivers originate from a
>> > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow
>limit
>> > > their abilities?
Your answer:
>> > Definitely.
>> >
>> > David G Fisher
I can see where and why he got upset with your answer. I know what you may
have MEANT, but you stated it wrong in this case. Your answer says that being
from the Southern US limits their abilities. You didn't say ANYTHING about the
number of drivers in the 'talent pool' as you like to call it...
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (13 lines)
>You obviously didn't read this whole thread. > >We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to come from >a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as a group >they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a >much, much larger talent pool. > >I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that he is >certain to be lacking talent. > >Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize. > >David G FisherA thread is a conversation. If someone is going to participate in that
thread, they should read as much of it as possible before jumping in. It's
why we should "group messages by conversation" (an option in OE).
Prevents a lot of misunderstandings and people taking comments out of
context. Also prevents us from having to continually restate our entire
viewpoint within a thread.
I thought we all knew this?
David G Fisher
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <Z4PY7.351109$[email hidden]>, "David G
> Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> >You obviously didn't read this whole thread.
> >
> >We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to comefrom
> >a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as agroup
> >they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a
> >much, much larger talent pool.
> >
> >I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that heis
may
> have MEANT, but you stated it wrong in this case. Your answer says thatbeing
> from the Southern US limits their abilities. You didn't say ANYTHINGabout the
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (20 lines)
> >certain to be lacking talent. > > > >Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize. > > > >David G Fisher > > > The question: > >> > >Simply because drivers originate from a > >> > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow > >limit > >> > > their abilities? > > > Your answer: > >> > Definitely. > >> > > >> > David G Fisher > > I can see where and why he got upset with your answer. I know what youQuoted text (9 lines)
> number of drivers in the 'talent pool' as you like to call it... > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beatsI explained it clearly. Other posts by me in this thread explain it clearly.
Never thought for a second you would apologize.
David G Fisher
"Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
group
little
around
> > the
> > > type people who the south is remebered for. People who are not afraid
> to
> > > work for what they believe in and desire, and people who would giveyou
Quoted text (22 lines)
> Oh, my manners certainly allow it. But unfortunately for you, only when > appropriate, which in this case, is not. > > You responded... > > >Simply because drivers originate from a > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit > > their abilities? > > Definitely. > > > But that doesn't imply that because they are from the south, they lack > talent? Are abilities and talent not extremely similar? > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Z4PY7.351109$[email hidden]... > > You obviously didn't read this whole thread. > > > > We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to come > from > > a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as aQuoted text (17 lines)
> > they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a > > much, much larger talent pool. > > > > I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that he > is > > certain to be lacking talent. > > > > Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > And obviously not being from the southern part of the US has limited > your > > > intelligence...Moron. Where a person is born or raised has veryQuoted text (8 lines)
> to > > > do with natural talent. Some have the ability to drive, others the > > ability > > > play sports, others the ability to simply be a better jerk than those > > around > > > them, but not because of where they are born. > > > > > > And as far as life in general goes, I would much rather live mineQuoted text (48 lines)
> > the > > > shirt off their back to help you if you needed it, whether you request > the > > > help or not. Those, sir, are the real people of the US. > > > > > > So if you want to call me a redneck, then go right ahead. Because as > long > > > as I am a redneck, no one will confuse me with your type. That I am > proud > > > of. > > > > > > Glen Pittman > > > Officially now a Redneck. > > > > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:B9rY7.347259$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:RKqY7.2270$V35.26042@rwcrnsc53... > > > > > > > > > > "jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]... > > > > > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a > > > redneck...he's > > > > a > > > > > Californian by way of Indiana. > > > > > > > > Talks like one. :-) > > > > > > > > >Simply because drivers originate from a > > > > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow > > limit > > > > > their abilities? > > > > > > > > Definitely. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> I explained it clearly. Other posts by me in this thread explain itclearly.
But you sure did wrote that "Definitely" on purpose, in hope of catching
somebody to get more attention to you. Don't even say you did not, it's
blatant rhetoric manipulation.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
I don't see your point. Of course everybody who raced with
MS are way bellow him, and everybody who raced with Senna are
more equal. I wanted to finish my part of this thread, but you forced
me to put a little more statistic.
1984 - Johansson managed to be 4th in his first race for Toleman,
wihtout previous practice
Senna 1 fastest lap, in Monaco
1985 - de Angelis almost equal points
Senna 3 fastest laps
1987 - Piquet and Mansell better with same engine
Piquet 4 fastest laps, Mansell and Senna 3
1988/9 - Prost equal on points
1988 - Prost 7 fl, Senna 3
1989 - Prost 5 fl, Senna 3
1990 - Berger 3 fl, Senna 2
1991 - Berger 2 fl, Senna 2
Schumacher in a first race for Benetton (2nd in career )
better than Piquet
1992 - Berger 2 fl, Senna 1 in McLaren-Honda; points equal
Schumacher 2 fl in Benetton-Ford
1993 - Senna better than Schumacher with same engine, on points, lol,
although every race that MS finished, he was on podium
Schumacher 5 fl, Senna 1
1994 - worst than Schumacher (see Brasilian GP )
Schumacher 8 fl (2 in first 2 races )
Senna 0 fl, although Damon Hill was 2nd at the end, with Williams
As we see Senna and Schumacher did race against each other, and
this is the statistic.You can ask yourself how somebody who didn't race
fast laps can be so high. Well, he didn't have to be fast, as long as he had
strong elbows. That is what I'm talking all the time. His driving stile
wasn't
clean precise champion, but arrogant elbowing.
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:shOY7.18163$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (9 lines)
> >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for > > competition??? > > > The only driver capable of beating him with an equal car... Jacques > Villeneuve. > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:shOY7.18163$[email hidden]...
I don't see your point. Of course everybody who raced with
MS are way bellow him, and everybody who raced with Senna are
more equal. I wanted to finish my part of this thread, but you forced
me to put a little more statistic.
1984 - Johansson managed to be 4th in his first race for Toleman,
wihtout previous practice
Senna 1 fastest lap, in Monaco
1985 - de Angelis almost equal points
Senna 3 fastest laps
1987 - Piquet and Mansell better with same engine
Piquet 4 fastest laps, Mansell and Senna 3
1988/9 - Prost equal on points
1988 - Prost 7 fl, Senna 3
1989 - Prost 5 fl, Senna 3
1990 - Berger 3 fl, Senna 2
1991 - Berger 2 fl, Senna 2
Schumacher in a first race for Benetton (2nd in career )
better than Piquet
1992 - Berger 2 fl, Senna 1 in McLaren-Honda; points equal
Schumacher 2 fl in Benetton-Ford
1993 - Senna better than Schumacher with same engine, on points, lol,
although every race that MS finished, he was on podium
Schumacher 5 fl, Senna 1
1994 - worst than Schumacher (see Brasilian GP )
Schumacher 8 fl (2 in first 2 races )
Senna 0 fl, although Damon Hill was 2nd at the end, with Williams
As we see Senna and Schumacher did race against each other, and
this is the statistic.You can ask yourself how somebody who didn't race
fast laps can be so high. Well, he didn't have to be fast, as long as he had
strong elbows. That is what I'm talking all the time. His driving stile
wasn't clean precise champion, but arrogant elbowing. It my look good for
masses, but not for me.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for > > competition??? > > > The only driver capable of beating him with an equal car... Jacques > Villeneuve. Sorry for repeted posts, my Outlook express obviosly
gone mad.
Definitely not.
BTW, if I was a needy person, I could probably think of a trillion better
ways to attract attention than to have a faceless debate with someone on an
auto simulator newsgroup.
David G Fisher
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%XTY7.23382$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (20 lines)
> >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I explained it clearly. Other posts by me in this thread explain it > clearly. > > > But you sure did wrote that "Definitely" on purpose, in hope of catching > somebody to get more attention to you. Don't even say you did not, it's > blatant rhetoric manipulation. > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 01:15:32 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>Ok mate. Lol. It was interesting. It's good to talk racing.
>They are both good (Senna and MS ), otherwise will not
>come even close to F1. Man, I'll never grow up.
>
>"Life is very short and there's no time
> For fussing and fighting my friend"
So, what do you guys think of Jos Verstappen?
Andre
Oops. You caught me here. Althought he was with
MS (whom I did watch very closely ), I still didn't make
up my mind. It's very hard with F1 to make up your mind
about frontrunners, with that unequility of equipment. It's
even harder about the rest, which you never even see,
anyeway. Can you help us a little bit.
"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> So, what do you guys think of Jos Verstappen?
>
> Andre
In message <[email hidden]>
[email hidden] (Andre Warringa) wrote:
> So, what do you guys think of Jos Verstappen?
Odd flashes of brilliance, but he can't do that every race weekend. He's
probably also been mentally screwed-over by his Team Schumacher (Benetton)
experienc in 1994. In my opinion, he's had enough changes, and he's not
good enough.
Actually... I think the same about the majority of the current F1 grid. The
only gems are: Michael Schumacher, Juan Pablo Montoya, Giancarlo Fisichella
and possibly Ralf Schumacher. One or two could 'come good': Kimi Raikonnen,
Nick Heidfeld, Takuma Sato - but the rest all need throwing out.
--
Richard.
"Rocky Raccoon checked into his room Only to find Gideon's bible."
Lol. I'm wondering. If there is no Micheal Schumacher, they
all will look much better (this is not only for JV, but for anybody ).
On the other hand, they all look a little distant, because of point
system, and unequal cars.
I now, I sound like parrot, but this is not good thing.
"VFy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (20 lines)
> Well I every other French Canadian would agree, but he's proven very > little to me. 97 championship - big deal. Win it with the best team > in the best car. Does that prove he's the best driver? And what's he > done since? And hey if the track is even a bit wet, how many laps > before JV runs off? > > Good driver, yes, but overrated, especially in Quebec. > > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:16:04 -0500, "ymenard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for > >> competition??? > > > > > >The only driver capable of beating him with an equal car... Jacques > >Villeneuve. >David G Fisher wrote:
You're sidestepping. Eldred has you perfectly in context. No misquotes
or misunderstandings to it.
--
Fester
> "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>
> > The question:
> > >> > >Simply because drivers originate from a
> > >> > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow
> > >limit
> > >> > > their abilities?
> >
> >
> > Your answer:
> > >> > Definitely.
> > >> >
> > >> > David G Fisher
> >
> > I can see where and why he got upset with your answer. I know what you
> may
> > have MEANT, but you stated it wrong in this case. Your answer says that
> being
> > from the Southern US limits their abilities. You didn't say ANYTHING
> about the
> > number of drivers in the 'talent pool' as you like to call it...
> >
> > Eldred
> > --
> > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > GPLRank - under construction...
> >
> > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
> you
> > with experience...
> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > A thread is a conversation. If someone is going to participate in that > thread, they should read as much of it as possible before jumping in. It's > why we should "group messages by conversation" (an option in OE). > > Prevents a lot of misunderstandings and people taking comments out of > context. Also prevents us from having to continually restate our entire > viewpoint within a thread. > > I thought we all knew this?On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:13:42 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Oops. You caught me here. Althought he was with
>MS (whom I did watch very closely ), I still didn't make
>up my mind. It's very hard with F1 to make up your mind
>about frontrunners, with that unequility of equipment. It's
>even harder about the rest, which you never even see,
>anyeway. Can you help us a little bit.
Well, ofcourse I followed Jos more than the other drivers since he's
Dutch, just as I am. Its not that often that we had Dutchies in F1 so
logically I support Jos in every way I can :)
But I fully agree with Richard Walkers reply: 'he's had enough
changes, and he's not good enough.' Every year he had every possible
problem that an F1 driver could get, ALLWAYS problems with the car,
and each time I though 'oh well, next year will be better'.
At the end of last season again numerous stories by Jos and Arrows how
next year WILL be better, but I seriously start to doubt that now.
Jos' qualifying last year was unbelievable horrible. Yes, he made that
up with his brilliant starts every race, but being outqualified by
Bernoldi was quite humiliating.
I'm glad he's still in F1 (because he's Dutch :) but otherwise I would
have wondered what the hell he is still doing in F1.
F1 should be for elite drivers only, not for 'rather good' drivers.
Andre
Well there is another factor we have overlooked. Driver talent from a
world wide gene pool certainly would be higher, but, the physical aspects
that make a great driver...better vision, better hand eye co-ordination,
better inate understanding of what a car is doing, these will all come to
naught if there is no track knowledge.
I know what you are thinking, an oval is an oval, but setupwise that
couldn't be further from the truth. Even a hot setup in a spring race may
be JUNK at the summer event. Here is where the Southern boys have an
advantage because this is there backyard. This is something they grew up
surrounded by. Chad Little was from my neck of the woods, Big fish in a
small pond. He dominated the Winston West series up in the Pacific NW.
He goes to the Busch series and does well. He joins WC with a top flight
team and is embarrased..twice. Driver talent does impact finishing order
but so too does the driver/crew chief communication. Over the course of a
season, a road-racer would be hard pressed to find the tiny tiny changes
that make a WC a 'rocket-ship' and those that turn it into junk.
Certainly there would be places that natural talent would shine through,
especially I think, the flatter tracks, but over all for a season's worth of
racing...It would take several years for a RR to get consitant top 5
finishes.
dave henrie
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Z4PY7.351109$[email hidden]...
> You obviously didn't read this whole thread.
>
> We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to comefrom
> a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as a group
> they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a
> much, much larger talent pool.
>
> I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that heis
your
> > intelligence...Moron. Where a person is born or raised has very littleto
to
> > work for what they believe in and desire, and people who would give you
> the
> > shirt off their back to help you if you needed it, whether you requestthe
> > help or not. Those, sir, are the real people of the US.
> >
> > So if you want to call me a redneck, then go right ahead. Because aslong
> > as I am a redneck, no one will confuse me with your type. That I amproud
Quoted text (10 lines)
> certain to be lacking talent. > > Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize. > > David G Fisher > > > "Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > And obviously not being from the southern part of the US has limitedQuoted text (9 lines)
> > do with natural talent. Some have the ability to drive, others the > ability > > play sports, others the ability to simply be a better jerk than those > around > > them, but not because of where they are born. > > > > And as far as life in general goes, I would much rather live mine around > the > > type people who the south is remebered for. People who are not afraidQuoted text (37 lines)
> > of. > > > > Glen Pittman > > Officially now a Redneck. > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:B9rY7.347259$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:RKqY7.2270$V35.26042@rwcrnsc53... > > > > > > > > "jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]... > > > > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a > > redneck...he's > > > a > > > > Californian by way of Indiana. > > > > > > Talks like one. :-) > > > > > > >Simply because drivers originate from a > > > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow > limit > > > > their abilities? > > > > > > Definitely. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I follow the races, but not the in-depth stuff about F1; does a team's
sponsor have a say into what driver is hired, as in other series?
-John
Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
The
> only gems are: Michael Schumacher, Juan Pablo Montoya, GiancarloFisichella
> and possibly Ralf Schumacher. One or two could 'come good': KimiRaikonnen,
Quoted text (11 lines)
> In message <[email hidden]> > [email hidden] (Andre Warringa) wrote: > > > So, what do you guys think of Jos Verstappen? > > Odd flashes of brilliance, but he can't do that every race weekend. He's > probably also been mentally screwed-over by his Team Schumacher (Benetton) > experienc in 1994. In my opinion, he's had enough changes, and he's not > good enough. > > Actually... I think the same about the majority of the current F1 grid.Quoted text (7 lines)
> Nick Heidfeld, Takuma Sato - but the rest all need throwing out. > > > -- > Richard. > > "Rocky Raccoon checked into his room Only to find Gideon's bible." F1 uses 6 & 7 gears for instant accelleration, not long haul reliability.
Nascar purposely limits it's technology to preserve it's connection with
it's roots. Certainly it would be a minor engineering exercise to implement
a 6 speed gearbox in a WC car, but that is NOT the point of Nascar. Nascar
is not finding the newest trickest technology. Nascar is about taking an
existing technology and finding the absolute maximum it can produce.
Nothing less will be competitive. Just because the cars are NOT loaded with
Carbon fibre, computer controlled gearchangers, pneumatic valves etc etc
doesn't imply the engineers are less cutting edge. A winston cup team
spends plenty of time with wind tunnels, computer data gathering and the
like. But when race day comes around, all that is put away and the people
make the difference.
So what if the WC cars are heavier than your own car. That is the focus
of the league, not racing 4 wheeled bugs with computers for brains and
drivers merely along to change direction. About 15 years or so..maybe
more, maybe less...one of the car magazines here in the States compared a
Race Winning Porche 962 from the Imsa series( a really beautiful car, the
962 remains one of Porche's crowning acheivements) and matched it up against
a Winston Cup car for a speed test on an oval. Guess what? The big heavy
square WC car easily bested the sleek aero Porche. Racing is racing. You
don't have to like a paticular type, few people really do enjoy all kinds,
but to ignorantly slam others based on the type of racing they follow, only
shows your lack of knowledge of a series, not your superiority by choosing
to watch another form of racing.
dave henrie
"jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:fMOY7.69471$%[email hidden]...
sure
> I'm on several ignore list as well. :-)
>
>
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > When you can't make the torque, you substitute with extra gears.... > > Right, I forgot, silly me, these Nascars also wiegh more than my road car. > > So, what your saying that the FIA decided that F1 cars did not have enough > torque, and that because of this they allowed the cars to have more than 4 > gears? This is so stupid, this is exactly why I think Nascar fans are > idiots. > > I really do need to make a filter to elimate all these Nascar post. I'mIn article <L9TY7.351608$[email hidden]>, "David G
Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:
>Prevents a lot of misunderstandings and people taking comments out of
>context. Also prevents us from having to continually restate our entire
>viewpoint within a thread.
>
Out of context? You responded to a direct question with a direct answer.
Sounds like it's in context to me...
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
> Out of context? You responded to a direct question with a direct answer.
> Sounds like it's in context to me...
>
> Eldred
>
Eldred,
you should know by now,
DONT FEED THE TROLLS :)
Ash
I think it was 1984. Wasn't Tim Richmond the driver? Seems like his
top speed in the old "Folgers Coffee Machine" was something over
240mph. Happen to remember the track?
Gerald
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Wq_Y7.276$[email hidden]>...
> About 15 years or so..maybe
> more, maybe less...one of the car magazines here in the States compared a
> Race Winning Porche 962 from the Imsa series( a really beautiful car, the
> 962 remains one of Porche's crowning acheivements) and matched it up against
> a Winston Cup car for a speed test on an oval. Guess what? The big heavy
> square WC car easily bested the sleek aero Porche.
In message <[email hidden]>
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> I follow the races, but not the in-depth stuff about F1; does a team's
> sponsor have a say into what driver is hired, as in other series?
Absolutely. There are a thousand and one other (non-talent) reasons why a
driver can be in a car.
--
Richard.
"Looking through a glass onion."
Spsonsers do have a say in who drives for their team. Red Bull have
sponsered Enrique Bernoldi and got him to drive for Arrows and want to keep
him for 2002.
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
He's
> > probably also been mentally screwed-over by his Team Schumacher(Benetton)
Quoted text (14 lines)
> I follow the races, but not the in-depth stuff about F1; does a team's > sponsor have a say into what driver is hired, as in other series? > > -John > > > Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In message <[email hidden]> > > [email hidden] (Andre Warringa) wrote: > > > > > So, what do you guys think of Jos Verstappen? > > > > Odd flashes of brilliance, but he can't do that every race weekend.Quoted text (18 lines)
> > experienc in 1994. In my opinion, he's had enough changes, and he's not > > good enough. > > > > Actually... I think the same about the majority of the current F1 grid. > The > > only gems are: Michael Schumacher, Juan Pablo Montoya, Giancarlo > Fisichella > > and possibly Ralf Schumacher. One or two could 'come good': Kimi > Raikonnen, > > Nick Heidfeld, Takuma Sato - but the rest all need throwing out. > > > > > > -- > > Richard. > > > > "Rocky Raccoon checked into his room Only to find Gideon's bible." > >However too many points can be a bad thing, like drivers having 1000s of
points in NASCAR, it can get very confusing. The ideal points scoring
system is yet to be found.
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Don't know in the FIA world, but that's a good question. In my stupid
> Nascar fan world(see Sir Troll's post above<G>), for good or bad, the
> sponsors have a LOT of impact on tv coverage; they all want their car tobe
a
there
Quoted text (16 lines)
> shown at some point, and not all advertise on the station involved. > > FOX can speak for trying to limit the exposure of those sponsors who > didn't choose FOX to advertise on :) I think their, cough, ears<G>, are > still burning :) > > -John > > > > EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > Good point. Though you'd think the sponsors of these cars would putQuoted text (9 lines)
> bit > > >of pressure on the FIA/TV folks to give them some air time too. > > > > > >-John > > > > > > > > >AndrewCounsell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:a0vlj5$h04$[email hidden]... > > >> If they had points scoring positions down to 10 or 12, like CARTQuoted text (19 lines)
> > >would > > >> be a reason fot TV cameras to follow battles further down the field. > > > > Yes, but do ANY sponsors really have any weight with the TV people...? > They're > > not advertising on that station, so I don't see them having any clout. > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank - under construction... > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > Ok, thanks. Well, with that happening, there'll never be X number of the
best drivers in F1, same as the other series don't for the same reason.
-John
Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (14 lines)
> In message <[email hidden]> > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > I follow the races, but not the in-depth stuff about F1; does a team's > > sponsor have a say into what driver is hired, as in other series? > > Absolutely. There are a thousand and one other (non-talent) reasons why a > driver can be in a car. > > > -- > Richard. > > "Looking through a glass onion." Knowing Roush racing's habit of hiring drivers for R & D cars, I think
Little fell into this trap too, just like Johnny Benson and Ted Musgrave :(
Roush has always denied this, but all three of these drivers say
otherwise, so.........
-John
Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:pm_Y7.269$[email hidden]...
order
> but so too does the driver/crew chief communication. Over the course of a
> season, a road-racer would be hard pressed to find the tiny tiny changes
> that make a WC a 'rocket-ship' and those that turn it into junk.
> Certainly there would be places that natural talent would shine through,
> especially I think, the flatter tracks, but over all for a season's worthof
group
little
around
> > the
> > > type people who the south is remebered for. People who are not afraid
> to
> > > work for what they believe in and desire, and people who would giveyou
Quoted text (13 lines)
> Well there is another factor we have overlooked. Driver talent from a > world wide gene pool certainly would be higher, but, the physical aspects > that make a great driver...better vision, better hand eye co-ordination, > better inate understanding of what a car is doing, these will all come to > naught if there is no track knowledge. > I know what you are thinking, an oval is an oval, but setupwise that > couldn't be further from the truth. Even a hot setup in a spring race may > be JUNK at the summer event. Here is where the Southern boys have an > advantage because this is there backyard. This is something they grew up > surrounded by. Chad Little was from my neck of the woods, Big fish in a > small pond. He dominated the Winston West series up in the Pacific NW. > He goes to the Busch series and does well. He joins WC with a top flight > team and is embarrased..twice. Driver talent does impact finishingQuoted text (11 lines)
> racing...It would take several years for a RR to get consitant top 5 > finishes. > dave henrie > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Z4PY7.351109$[email hidden]... > > You obviously didn't read this whole thread. > > > > We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to come > from > > a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as aQuoted text (17 lines)
> > they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a > > much, much larger talent pool. > > > > I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that he > is > > certain to be lacking talent. > > > > Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > And obviously not being from the southern part of the US has limited > your > > > intelligence...Moron. Where a person is born or raised has veryQuoted text (8 lines)
> to > > > do with natural talent. Some have the ability to drive, others the > > ability > > > play sports, others the ability to simply be a better jerk than those > > around > > > them, but not because of where they are born. > > > > > > And as far as life in general goes, I would much rather live mineQuoted text (48 lines)
> > the > > > shirt off their back to help you if you needed it, whether you request > the > > > help or not. Those, sir, are the real people of the US. > > > > > > So if you want to call me a redneck, then go right ahead. Because as > long > > > as I am a redneck, no one will confuse me with your type. That I am > proud > > > of. > > > > > > Glen Pittman > > > Officially now a Redneck. > > > > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:B9rY7.347259$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:RKqY7.2270$V35.26042@rwcrnsc53... > > > > > > > > > > "jlohman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:tJpY7.56093$[email hidden]... > > > > > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a > > > redneck...he's > > > > a > > > > > Californian by way of Indiana. > > > > > > > > Talks like one. :-) > > > > > > > > >Simply because drivers originate from a > > > > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow > > limit > > > > > their abilities? > > > > > > > > Definitely. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>"VFy" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> Win it with the best team in the best car.
Hmm, isn't what Schumacher has done all his life? His WC all come when his
car is at best. It's exactly my point, give both an equal car (ex: JV's
championship), he's the only one who can beat him currently in F1.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote
> Definitely not.
LOL sure David, sure.
> "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote
> > But you sure did wrote that "Definitely" on purpose, in hope of catching
> > somebody to get more attention to you. Don't even say you did not, it's
> > blatant rhetoric manipulation.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote
> Sorry for repeted posts, my Outlook express obviosly
> gone mad.
;-)
I was talking more about Schumacher vs. Villeneuve.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
Yep, agreed.
-John
AndrewCounsell <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a1285n$ls0$[email hidden]...
> However too many points can be a bad thing, like drivers having 1000s of
> points in NASCAR, it can get very confusing. The ideal points scoring
> system is yet to be found.
> "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > Don't know in the FIA world, but that's a good question. In mystupid
are
put
field.
beats
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Nascar fan world(see Sir Troll's post above<G>), for good or bad, the > > sponsors have a LOT of impact on tv coverage; they all want their car to > be > > shown at some point, and not all advertise on the station involved. > > > > FOX can speak for trying to limit the exposure of those sponsors who > > didn't choose FOX to advertise on :) I think their, cough, ears<G>,Quoted text (12 lines)
> > still burning :) > > > > -John > > > > > > > > EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > > > Good point. Though you'd think the sponsors of these cars wouldQuoted text (13 lines)
> a > > bit > > > >of pressure on the FIA/TV folks to give them some air time too. > > > > > > > >-John > > > > > > > > > > > >AndrewCounsell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > >news:a0vlj5$h04$[email hidden]... > > > >> If they had points scoring positions down to 10 or 12, like CART > there > > > >would > > > >> be a reason fot TV cameras to follow battles further down theQuoted text (12 lines)
> > > > > > Yes, but do ANY sponsors really have any weight with the TV people...? > > They're > > > not advertising on that station, so I don't see them having any clout. > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank - under construction... > > > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, thenQuoted text (7 lines)
> > you > > > with experience... > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > Here I come again. ymenard isn't just a little bit strange, just
a little bit, how all this best cars are best only when Schumacher is
driving them. Not before, not after. On the other hand, isn't a little
bit strange, just a little bit, how every World Champion in a last
two decades, comes from such a bad teams, like Williams and
McLaren.
Mario. Lol
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Tw2Z7.34556$[email hidden]...
> >"VFy" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> > Win it with the best team in the best car.
>
>
> Hmm, isn't what Schumacher has done all his life? His WC all come whenhis
Quoted text (16 lines)
> car is at best. It's exactly my point, give both an equal car (ex: JV's > championship), he's the only one who can beat him currently in F1. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > ><yawn>
"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> David G Fisher wrote:
> >
> > A thread is a conversation. If someone is going to participate in that
> > thread, they should read as much of it as possible before jumping in.It's
somehow
you
> > may
> > > have MEANT, but you stated it wrong in this case. Your answer saysthat
beats
> > you
> > > with experience...
> > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (24 lines)
> > why we should "group messages by conversation" (an option in OE). > > > > Prevents a lot of misunderstandings and people taking comments out of > > context. Also prevents us from having to continually restate our entire > > viewpoint within a thread. > > > > I thought we all knew this? > > > You're sidestepping. Eldred has you perfectly in context. No misquotes > or misunderstandings to it. > > -- > > Fester > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > The question: > > > >> > >Simply because drivers originate from a > > > >> > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does thatQuoted text (10 lines)
> > > >limit > > > >> > > their abilities? > > > > > > > > > Your answer: > > > >> > Definitely. > > > >> > > > > >> > David G Fisher > > > > > > I can see where and why he got upset with your answer. I know whatQuoted text (12 lines)
> > being > > > from the Southern US limits their abilities. You didn't say ANYTHING > > about the > > > number of drivers in the 'talent pool' as you like to call it... > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank - under construction... > > > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, thenWould it make you happy if I actually say what you are dying to prove I said
so you can slap me on the wrists?
Ok. Just for you. Ready?
Anyone from the South in the United States of America absolutely, positively
has a genetic defect which makes it impossible for them to ever be a world
class race car driver. 3,000,000 years ago, nature decided that this
limitation on people from the South (Mother Nature knew way back then
exactly how the earth would end up in the year 2002 after all the continents
shifted and slid themselves into a comfy position, the country names were
all picked out, and the political borders were all in place) was of the
utmost importance. Why? Because it wanted to make sure that that David G
Fisher could come on r.a.s. in 2002 and rip Southerners to get his jollies.
Are Eldred, Uncle F., and Ashley happy now?
David G Fisher
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (18 lines)
> In article <L9TY7.351608$[email hidden]>, "David G > Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Prevents a lot of misunderstandings and people taking comments out of > >context. Also prevents us from having to continually restate our entire > >viewpoint within a thread. > > > > Out of context? You responded to a direct question with a direct answer. > Sounds like it's in context to me... > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats I'll be more specific.
TAG Porsche
Honda
Renault
Mercedes
BMW
When some big company decide to put tremendous amount
of money in F1, it choses some proven team, either Williams or
McLaren. These companies, with that money, are winning F1
races. Schumacher won only one championship with such engine,
although with lower class team. All other WCs (Prost, Senna,
Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen ), have won their championships
only while driving for that companies in that teams.
How come Schumacher came in position of one such engine.
Well, he snatched WC in 1994 with Ford. Why wouldn't it be with
Renault.
"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a12ehv$5v82$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (9 lines)
> Here I come again. ymenard isn't just a little bit strange, just > a little bit, how all this best cars are best only when Schumacher is > driving them. Not before, not after. On the other hand, isn't a little > bit strange, just a little bit, how every World Champion in a last > two decades, comes from such a bad teams, like Williams and > McLaren. > > Mario. Lol >> square WC car easily bested the sleek aero Porche. Racing is racing.You
> don't have to like a paticular type, few people really do enjoy all kinds,
> but to ignorantly slam others based on the type of racing they follow,only
> shows your lack of knowledge of a series, not your superiority by choosing
> to watch another form of racing.
> dave henrie
I did mean to infer that I was superior. Hardly. There are some Nascar fans
on this newsgroup that are very knowledgeable. They choose to follow Nascar
because they like it, and thats fine. What gets me, is the ignorance of some
typical Nascar fans (I live in Texas, so I see alot of it). As far as my
ignorance towards Nascar, maybe, but I have watched Nascar races, I do know
some drivers, and could point out the drivers from there cars. The typical
Nascar fan would not be able to identify F1 drivers. So, I am no expert on
Nascar, but I feel I know enough about it to express my opinions. That
doesn't make me superior.
In article <jn3Z7.352409$[email hidden]>, "David G
Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:
>Would it make you happy if I actually say what you are dying to prove I said
>so you can slap me on the wrists?
Good grief... I said earlier that I understood what you meant(about the number
of potential drivers), and was basically(gasp) agreeing with that statement, to
a certain extent. I also said that I thought you stated it wrongly, and that's
why you got the flaming response. *I* didn't think you meant it the way he
took it, but I could see how he got that impression. Your statement about
taking something out of context was(to me) a flawed argument, considering you
directly answered his question.
I'm not out to 'get' you, David. I'm truly sorry you think that...
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
"jlohman" . So, I am no expert on
> Nascar, but I feel I know enough about it to express my opinions. That
> doesn't make me superior.
> Great...folks just need to remember, (and this is for everyone not just
you) that we are all here because we are fans...of one sort or another. If
you prefer one type...great. But try to keep a clear mind with regard to
other's likes and dislikes. I've spent the last two days defending Nascar
when I personally rank it 4th or 5th on what I'd like to watch on any given
weekend. I did it because we sometimes get abusive about the choices
others make here. Let Nascar fans be happy with their left turns, let F1
fans rejoice in pit-passing. Let Drag Racers marvel at the way a
brake-chute opens...to each his own.
dave henrie
In F1 some drivers 'BUY' their way in. They have long term sponsorship
deals with big money companies. If the driver gets sacked, then the company
takes their money and leaves to. So there will always be some that rise to
the top of gene-pool because they have a Sugar Daddy, not because they have
the twitch-instincts of a mosquito.
dave henrie
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
He's
> > probably also been mentally screwed-over by his Team Schumacher(Benetton)
Quoted text (14 lines)
> I follow the races, but not the in-depth stuff about F1; does a team's > sponsor have a say into what driver is hired, as in other series? > > -John > > > Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In message <[email hidden]> > > [email hidden] (Andre Warringa) wrote: > > > > > So, what do you guys think of Jos Verstappen? > > > > Odd flashes of brilliance, but he can't do that every race weekend.Quoted text (18 lines)
> > experienc in 1994. In my opinion, he's had enough changes, and he's not > > good enough. > > > > Actually... I think the same about the majority of the current F1 grid. > The > > only gems are: Michael Schumacher, Juan Pablo Montoya, Giancarlo > Fisichella > > and possibly Ralf Schumacher. One or two could 'come good': Kimi > Raikonnen, > > Nick Heidfeld, Takuma Sato - but the rest all need throwing out. > > > > > > -- > > Richard. > > > > "Rocky Raccoon checked into his room Only to find Gideon's bible." > >
Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:0ccZ7.551$Sf2.3998@rwcrnsc52...
If
> you prefer one type...great. But try to keep a clear mind with regard to
> other's likes and dislikes. I've spent the last two days defending Nascar
> when I personally rank it 4th or 5th on what I'd like to watch on anygiven
> weekend. I did it because we sometimes get abusive about the choices
> others make here. Let Nascar fans be happy with their left turns, let F1
> fans rejoice in pit-passing. Let Drag Racers marvel at the way a
> brake-chute opens...to each his own.
> dave henrie
>
Totally! And don't even get me started about drag racing! I love it!
However, drag racing MUST be seen in person to really
appreciate...especially those NHRA top fuel and funny cars. Wow! Awesome
stuff.
--
- Will DeRivera
- GPL Rank 103.93
- http://www.numic.net
- http://www.luxt.com
- Hi, I'm a sig virus.
- Please add me to the end of your sig and help me take over the world.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > "jlohman" . So, I am no expert on > > Nascar, but I feel I know enough about it to express my opinions. That > > doesn't make me superior. > > > Great...folks just need to remember, (and this is for everyone not just > you) that we are all here because we are fans...of one sort or another."David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:jn3Z7.352409$[email hidden]...
<Snip!>
I suppose, that if one belived in predestination <shudder> one would have to
agree with that statement. ;-)
Cheers,
Jens
