FF vs. non FF wheel ??

Hi All, I am thinking about getting a new wheel for Christmas(at least if I drop enough hints I hope my wife will get me one!!) and have a few questions. First off right now I am using an old Thrustmaster GP1 without any peddles. Obviously anything with peddles will be a step up for me(will I drive faster, probably not..8-0) but I am curious as to the effect of FF vs. non FF on your driving?? Does it help your driving or just make it feel more realistic. I guess the FF depends on how well the game designer implements it , is that correct?? I am looking at 2 Logitech wheels, where the FF one is about double the price of the regular wheel. Is FF worth the extra money? Thanks for any and all suggestions!! Mike

I don't have a FF wheel yet - just the MadCatz Andretti wheel, which has been phenomenal. If I were to look at FF, I'd at least consider the Act Labs wheel / shifter! Mike wrote:

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> Hi All, > I am thinking about getting a new wheel for Christmas(at least if I drop > enough hints I hope my wife will get me one!!) and have a few > questions. First off right now I am using an old Thrustmaster GP1 > without any peddles. Obviously anything with peddles will be a step up > for me(will I drive faster, probably not..8-0) but I am curious as to > the effect of FF vs. non FF on your driving?? Does it help your driving > or just make it feel more realistic. I guess the FF depends on how well > the game designer implements it , is that correct?? I am looking at 2 > Logitech wheels, where the FF one is about double the price of the > regular wheel. Is FF worth the extra money? Thanks for any and all > suggestions!! > > Mike

Mike...for what it's worth the majority of people i have asked actually switch the FF off,me included. I have an MS FF usb and drive without the FORCE button pressed. I thought it was maybe just me but when even Greger Huttu informs you he drives GPL with his FF off,then maybe i am normal after all. I always thought the MS FF was a good place to start though,they are cheap enough these days. Good luck Morgan

I'm very happy with my Thrustmaster FF. Great feel, great price, great grip, sh*t gear-changers (be gentle with them) but I would still recommend it highly. Ian www.SimBin.com For all your setups! "andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I don't have a FF wheel yet - just the MadCatz Andretti wheel, which has > been phenomenal. > > If I were to look at FF, I'd at least consider the Act Labs wheel / > shifter! > > Mike wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I am thinking about getting a new wheel for Christmas(at least if I drop > > enough hints I hope my wife will get me one!!) and have a few > > questions. First off right now I am using an old Thrustmaster GP1 > > without any peddles. Obviously anything with peddles will be a step up > > for me(will I drive faster, probably not..8-0) but I am curious as to > > the effect of FF vs. non FF on your driving?? Does it help your driving > > or just make it feel more realistic. I guess the FF depends on how well > > the game designer implements it , is that correct?? I am looking at 2 > > Logitech wheels, where the FF one is about double the price of the > > regular wheel. Is FF worth the extra money? Thanks for any and all > > suggestions!! > > > > Mike >

I personally don't like FF. Most force feed back seems to gimmicky to me. Its fun when playing a game like NFS, but for true sims it seems to do more of the driving than you do. Now sims like GPL and F12001 have a ton of FF options to edit, but I have never taken the time to tweak it to my liking. IMO FF should be subtle amount to help make up for the lack of G-forces on your body that you would get in real life, not ripping the wheel out of your hand when you hit something. I thought NASCAR Heat's FF was one of the better FF until the patched it and made it more arcade-ish. Now as far as what wheel to get depends on how serious you are about racing. If you plan on using it alot the two best choices would be ACT Labs for FF and TSW for non-FF. I'm waiting for my Logitech to take a crap and I'll be going for the ACT Labs setup because I like the added items like the shifter and new pedal set up. I like the TSW for its larger diameter wheel, but I have found a website for putting a larger wheel on an ACT labs so that not a deal maker. So with any hardware purchase you really need to make a honest decision on what you want and base your purchase based on it.

> I thought it was maybe just me but when even Greger Huttu informs you he > drives GPL with his FF off,then maybe i am normal after all. So GPL support FF? I have just moved the lawn around this track in Africa for an hour or two but I felt no force. Do I have to download something? I have a MS FF usb on W2k. Jone.

FF is a personal feel kind of thing, I don't care for it personally (and I used it for about a year with a Logitech Wingman Formula Force). I started thinking about how the forces felt compared to real life (I have turned some hot laps in some hot cars at some real tracks (aka Fast Track Driving school)) and they are still just too phoney. Take NASCAR 4, these real cars have power steering. Most of the 'feel' in one of these cars comes through the butt (seat-of-the-pants) and not necessarily through the steering column. After I decided that it felt so phoney, and that I was fighting it too much I gave up and went non FF all the way. Having owned 3 non FF and 1 FF wheel at this point I decided I was tired of buying wheels that had to have to be rebuilt every 6 months to a year (of moderate-to-heavy use) I went with a Thomas. Seeing as how they warranty everyting in their units but the pots (which are easy to replace and not that expensive). I now recommend Thomas for everyone, I know they cost, but are well worth it once you feel their action and consider all you will ever have to do to keep it working is replace the pots on occasion. They are by far the smoothest units 'readily' available to us here in the US. I got the TSW 2 Cup model + Split Axis ($458 shipped) and bang my head for not buying it to start with knowing now how much more $$ than that amount I wasted on my prior 4 wheels. (Thrustmaster T2 (dead), LWFF (in bottom of closet), V3 (sub while waiting for Thomas), and Thrustamster Pro Digital (used it a day, gave it to my nephew)) If the TSW is too much $$ for ya, get a Logi Momo (and get used to the1 inch pedal travel) and turn off FF, you should be set. Mike <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi All, > I am thinking about getting a new wheel for Christmas(at least if I drop > enough hints I hope my wife will get me one!!) and have a few > questions. First off right now I am using an old Thrustmaster GP1 > without any peddles. Obviously anything with peddles will be a step up > for me(will I drive faster, probably not..8-0) but I am curious as to > the effect of FF vs. non FF on your driving?? Does it help your driving > or just make it feel more realistic. I guess the FF depends on how well > the game designer implements it , is that correct?? I am looking at 2 > Logitech wheels, where the FF one is about double the price of the > regular wheel. Is FF worth the extra money? Thanks for any and all > suggestions!! > > Mike >

Question for you on the TSW. Is there any tension on the wheel or is it totaly free rotation? I have turned off the FF but I still use the centring spring. The wheel feels way to free for my taste with the centering spring off. I need some resistance otherwise i oversteer way to easy. Should have seen it the first time I got the overheat problem with the LWFF. Bam! right into the wall. :) MadDAWG

I have just one remark. If you feel through the wheel what you feel through your butt, then it isn't so phoney. Other than that, I'm using FF wheel (LWFF ) and am fast enough. I don't know what faster guys then me use, but I will not use non-FF wheel no more, even if it give me ability to be the fastest man on earth. As much as I will never use any view except in-car. FF gives me feel that I need. Non-FF gives me nothing. I think that guys that complains about FF simply didn't set latency right. With FF you can be fast enough, for sure. If you don't set latency right, then you have problems. "SimRacer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SDOP7.40$[email hidden]... > I started thinking about how the forces felt compared to real life (I have > turned some hot laps in some hot cars at some real tracks (aka Fast Track > Driving school)) and they are still just too phoney. Take NASCAR 4, these > real cars have power steering. Most of the 'feel' in one of these carscomes > through the butt (seat-of-the-pants) and not necessarily through the > steering column.

Jone Tytlandsvik <[email hidden]> wrote on 06 Dec 2001: > So GPL support FF? I have just moved the lawn around this track in > Africa for an hour or two but I felt no force. Do I have to > download something? I have a MS FF usb on W2k. You do have the v1.2 patch, right? If not, go to www.papy.com and get it. And make sure you set the core.ini file as explained in its readme. -- Sceptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense -- Carl Sagan The GPL Scrapyard returns (slowly): http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

Mike <[email hidden]> wrote on 06 Dec 2001: <snip> > Thanks for any and all suggestions!! I have a MS FF (USB), and drive it with FF on most of the time, but GPL is (as per usual) different. I keep the FORCE button set, but don't enable it in GPL. THat way I get a centring force, but don't get the spikes that tend to wreck things otherwise. Sounds a bit odd, but it's really comfortable. -- Sceptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense -- Carl Sagan The GPL Scrapyard returns (slowly): http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

The Thomas has what I think they call 'perfect tension' springs in their steering unit. I have to agree, they feel like they have the perfect amount of tension in them, almost like a car with power steering. Go to their site and poke around, I think there are some photos where you can see the springs themselves. www.thomas-superhweel.com MadDAWG <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Question for you on the TSW. Is there any tension on the wheel or is it > totaly free rotation? I have turned off the FF but I still use thecentring > spring. The wheel feels way to free for my taste with the centering spring > off. I need some resistance otherwise i oversteer way to easy. Should have > seen it the first time I got the overheat problem with the LWFF. Bam!right > into the wall. :) > > MadDAWG > >

Mario Petrinovic <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9uojar$4khi$[email hidden]... > I have just one remark. If you feel through the wheel what you > feel through your butt, then it isn't so phoney. Yes, seat-of-the-pants and palm-of-the-hands are definaelty 2 different feelings (unless you drive with your hands under your butt). The feeling one wants in a sim is of the G-forces, since the most a NASCAR racer would feel through the steering wheel is the bumps in the track and some resistance to turn at higher speeds. The difference may appear in open wheel, where something could actually hit one of your exposed front wheels and turn the wheel in you hands. Do you really think that $100k race cars have production power steering pumps, that you will feel everylittle thing that affects the car? No, they are heavy duty steering units that could probably be used on a stretched limo. The ones I have experienced felt smooth with slight resistance to turn. The 'feedback', as I said, is transmitted through the suspension into the chassis where the seat is mounted. Not looking to start an argument, but what happens in a race car at speed is NOT felt through the hands. At high speed you really don't feel anything but G-forces (and their effects: bottoming out), you are simply holding on really. Say you're driving down the road in your family sedan, does cornering particularly fast feel like it is going to pull the wheel out of your hands? How about if you hit a pot hole on the right side, is it going to generate enough force to even make you strengthen your grip? No. It doesn't in a stock car either. Like I said, the current FF is trying to account for real forces with unreal effects IMHO.

Hello, Would you mind telling me where you saw that mod for instally a larger diameter wheel? Thanks Raymond ACT LABS www.act-labs.com On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:23:44 -0500, "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I personally don't like FF. Most force feed back seems to gimmicky to me. >Its fun when playing a game like NFS, but for true sims it seems to do more >of the driving than you do. Now sims like GPL and F12001 have a ton of FF >options to edit, but I have never taken the time to tweak it to my liking. >IMO FF should be subtle amount to help make up for the lack of G-forces on >your body that you would get in real life, not ripping the wheel out of your >hand when you hit something. I thought NASCAR Heat's FF was one of the >better FF until the patched it and made it more arcade-ish. Now as far as >what wheel to get depends on how serious you are about racing. If you plan >on using it alot the two best choices would be ACT Labs for FF and TSW for >non-FF. I'm waiting for my Logitech to take a crap and I'll be going for the >ACT Labs setup because I like the added items like the shifter and new pedal >set up. I like the TSW for its larger diameter wheel, but I have found a >website for putting a larger wheel on an ACT labs so that not a deal maker. >So with any hardware purchase you really need to make a honest decision on >what you want and base your purchase based on it. >

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <snip> > regular wheel. Is FF worth the extra money? Thanks for any and all > suggestions!!<snip> Well implemented and tuned FFB is both informative and immersive. Poorly implemented or tuned FFB is both annoying and slows you down. I like it, but then I use an Aura Interactor cushion so I can feel the rumble as well. Even if a game has an excellent FFB implementation - if you don't set latency, strength and dampening correctly you can find yourself being thrown all over the road. If you tune it to "tell you things" rather than take over the car, then it's great. IMHO a FFB wheel which is known to work well with FFB switched off is the best option. Then you can choose on a per-game basis. I've heard excellent things about the Logi Momo, and my "original" Logitech FFB wheel has lasted 4 years and only gone through one potentiometer. iksteh

I'll have to check my book marks at home but I'll send it to ya this weekend. They used a Grant automotive wheel and adapter setup for a real car. I think the redrilled the holes in the Grant adapter to match the flage on the ACT Labs wheel. It looked pretty painsless really. They kept the paddel shifters, but i don't think the kept the buttons on the wheel, if there is any. Are you guys thinking about a larger diameter wheel as an option? IMO that would be a very good idea :) MadDAWG

I am actually quite surprised at the number of people that "claim" to turn off the FF. I have a Logitech Formula FF and it is awesome in F1 2001. In fact it makes all the difference in the game. -- [email hidden] "Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi All, > I am thinking about getting a new wheel for Christmas(at least if I drop > enough hints I hope my wife will get me one!!) and have a few > questions. First off right now I am using an old Thrustmaster GP1 > without any peddles. Obviously anything with peddles will be a step up > for me(will I drive faster, probably not..8-0) but I am curious as to > the effect of FF vs. non FF on your driving?? Does it help your driving > or just make it feel more realistic. I guess the FF depends on how well > the game designer implements it , is that correct?? I am looking at 2 > Logitech wheels, where the FF one is about double the price of the > regular wheel. Is FF worth the extra money? Thanks for any and all > suggestions!! > > Mike >

I think that it has alot to do with what you want out of it. I to have the Logitech and f12001. Now without messing with the countless variables in the ini files I spend more time fighting the wheel than driving. So I just turned it off. MadDAWG

Ditto that; the AL stuff looks to be very nice, but that 70's wheel has gotta go. I keep wondering where the eight-track is... ;-) <begin impromptu wheel size preference poll> 11.5-12" sounds about right to me! (wider paddles, too) SB "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote... <snip> > Are you guys thinking about a larger diameter wheel as an option? IMO that > would be a very good idea :)<snip>

> Ditto that; the AL stuff looks to be very nice, but that 70's wheel hasgotta go. I keep wondering where the eight-track is... ;-) Kinda looks like its out of one of those custom vans. Maybe thet can come out with one of those chainlink ones :) > <begin impromptu wheel size preference poll> > > 11.5-12" sounds about right to me! (wider paddles, too) I think the standard TSW is 13 so thats where i was thinking. My Logitech is 10" I think so i would say 12" would be min. I saw a show on the early years of IROC and at a race at Riverside in the early 70's G. Hill got into one of the Camaros and asked for a smaller wheel because he thought the one in the cars was way to big. The mechanic told him to just try it since the cars were alot different from what he was use to. After a couple laps Hill came back to the pits and asked for a larger wheel. :) I'm no G. Hill but I want a bigger wheel too. MadDAWG

You have to toggle a flag option in the CORE.INI file. I forget the exact variable name - it was 2 years ago last I did it. "Jone Tytlandsvik" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >> I thought it was maybe just me but when even Greger Huttu informs you he >> drives GPL with his FF off,then maybe i am normal after all. > >So GPL support FF? I have just moved the lawn around this track in Africa >for an hour or two but I felt no force. Do I have to download something? >I have a MS FF usb on W2k. > >Jone. >

-------------------- Sinjin www.SinjinSolves.com Your Guide to Success

http://www.vision-motorsports.com/ActLabsWheelRep.htm MadDAWG

I don't think you really HAVE to mess with all of those variables. Try just setting FF Type to Wheel, FF Effects to Medium, and FF Strength to -70%. Worked pretty well on my El Cheapo LWFFGP, so I assume it would feel much better on the LWFF. "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I think that it has alot to do with what you want out of it. I to havethe > Logitech and f12001. Now without messing with the countless variablesin the > ini files I spend more time fighting the wheel than driving. So I just > turned it off. > > MadDAWG > >

SimRacer wrote: > > Not looking to start an argument, but what happens in a race car at speed is > NOT felt through the hands. At high speed you really don't feel anything but > G-forces (and their effects: bottoming out), you are simply holding on > really. The best FF effects right now aren't modeling what a steering wheel would actually feel like. It's modeling G-forces and mechanical grip of the tires. The result, while not a mirror of reality, is very useful. It adds realism to driving a sim, even though it isn't necessarily realistic. The seat of the pants feedback you want will be great, but it ain't happenin' anytime soon. Meanwhile, steering FF is providing a much more realistic driving experience than running without FF. BTW, if you really want realistic feedback, do what I did. Buy a kart and start racing for real. -- Pat Dotson

> Yes, seat-of-the-pants and palm-of-the-hands are definaelty 2 different > feelings (unless you drive with your hands under your butt). The feelingone > wants in a sim is of the G-forces, since the most a NASCAR racer wouldfeel > through the steering wheel is the bumps in the track and some resistanceto > turn at higher speeds. The difference may appear in open wheel, where > something could actually hit one of your exposed front wheels and turn the > wheel in you hands. Keep in mind that a Winston cup stock car has very wide tires, and I don't think there's a power steering pump that could totally overcome the amount of force those tires require to turn unless it took a lot of power away from the engine - hence the very large wheels in the cars. > Do you really think that $100k race cars have production power steering > pumps, that you will feel everylittle thing that affects the car? No, they > are heavy duty steering units that could probably be used on a stretched > limo. The ones I have experienced felt smooth with slight resistance to > turn. The 'feedback', as I said, is transmitted through the suspensioninto > the chassis where the seat is mounted. Ever driven an older GM (or Ford) full size car, truck, or van? As far as I know, those all have just about the lightest steering you could ever want to have, but they still do provide feedback if you pay attention, especially at higher speeds, and that's all just on lame street tires. I drive a 1970 El Camino (nice big V8), and the power steering pump on my car probably isn't too much different from a Winston cup car. I'm sure a cup car still has fairly light steering for a race car, but there's still some feedback in the wheel, particularly on some of those really high banks (Dover, Bristol, Daytona, etc.). > Say you're driving down the road in your family sedan, does cornering > particularly fast feel like it is going to pull the wheel out of yourhands? > How about if you hit a pot hole on the right side, is it going to generate > enough force to even make you strengthen your grip? No. It doesn't in a > stock car either. This will be a little bit of a stretch, but my car's suspension is very much like that of a stock car - solid rear axle, upper and lower control arms up front, rear wheel drive, etc. All I can tell you is that hitting a pothole, or some other extreme bump in the road, with just one side of the suspension, makes for one hell of a ride. The wheel kicks VERY hard as the front wheel goes over, and then the read end decides to go wherever it wants to, just because it can, so you have to pray that it comes back down in your own lane. Good thing winston cup cars don't have to handle potholes. Now about cornering, you're right that it doesn't try to pull the wheel out of your hands, but there is still enough tension that you need to use both hands (I'm talking about 80+ mph). Trust me, I've done it, there are some very nice roads around here. Just some of my observations, Ryan P.S. I use FF in every game - can't live without it! Good ol' original Logitech, waiting for a MOMO.