GPL different cars same chassis setup??

During the past few days I was experimenting with Cooper and Honda at the 'Ring with surprising results. In both cases after trying several setups (default, Alison's, Andreas Wilke's) I was totally frustrated by not being able to put any decent time (high 8:30 in Cooper, low 8:40 in Honda). The car just didn't feel right. So I decided to load chassis from my favourite Lotus setup. 8:19 in Cooper, 8:25 in Honda. It doesn't seem to make any sense. Am I missing something? Alex (alexti) P.S. Going back to try it with other cars :)

I do the same thing when I get really frustrated.. haha I change the gearing tho' but I guess you did too.. yes? "Alex" wrote:

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| During the past few days I was experimenting with Cooper | and Honda at the 'Ring with surprising results. In both | cases after trying several setups (default, Alison's, | Andreas Wilke's) I was totally frustrated by not being | able to put any decent time (high 8:30 in Cooper, | low 8:40 in Honda). The car just didn't feel right. | So I decided to load chassis from my favourite Lotus setup. | 8:19 in Cooper, 8:25 in Honda. It doesn't seem to make any | sense. Am I missing something? | Alex | (alexti) | P.S. Going back to try it with other cars :)

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I run basically the same setup on all cars. A little stiffer on heavy cars, a little softer on the light one(s), with gearing adjusted to the power band of the respective engine. I take applicability to all cars as a measure of how successfull a certain setup strategy is, adjusting and tweaking to a point where now I indeed use the same base for every car (with "natural" adjustments to suit specific characteristics) at every track and then tweak to suit the conditions. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Alex" wrote... > During the past few days I was experimenting > <snip>

"Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in news:y4447.5838$[email hidden]: > I do the same thing when I get really frustrated.. haha I change the > gearing tho' but I guess you did too.. yes?Yes, I used only chassis setup from Lotus. Alex (alexti)

On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:34:07 GMT, [email hidden] (Alex) wrote:

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>During the past few days I was experimenting with Cooper >and Honda at the 'Ring with surprising results. In both >cases after trying several setups (default, Alison's, >Andreas Wilke's) I was totally frustrated by not being >able to put any decent time (high 8:30 in Cooper, >low 8:40 in Honda). The car just didn't feel right. >So I decided to load chassis from my favourite Lotus setup. >8:19 in Cooper, 8:25 in Honda. It doesn't seem to make any >sense. Am I missing something?

In common with other responders I tend to use the same chassis setup for all cars. Yes, there are slight variations in weight distribution between some of the cars so using the same setup won't give EXACTLY the same balance but it won't be far off and most of us are not sensitive enough to detect this. GRE (GPL Race Engineer) gives some tips which I used to create a chart which is here : http://jc.simracing.dk/maxx/maxx_article1.htm It says F2/FD but the table is as applicable to F1 Maxx

Alex, Since Papy went to the trouble to model different engine curves, different wheelbases, different tracks, different weights, different c.g.s, different aero, etc., for each car in the game, I'm amazed anybody but a rank amateur (or somebody with a remarkably dead butt) would think one setup would work for more than one car. Then again, I know some churls who don't even bother to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! --Steve Smith "Alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> During the past few days I was experimenting with Cooper > and Honda at the 'Ring with surprising results. In both > cases after trying several setups (default, Alison's, > Andreas Wilke's) I was totally frustrated by not being > able to put any decent time (high 8:30 in Cooper, > low 8:40 in Honda). The car just didn't feel right. > So I decided to load chassis from my favourite Lotus setup. > 8:19 in Cooper, 8:25 in Honda. It doesn't seem to make any > sense. Am I missing something? > > Alex > (alexti) > > P.S. Going back to try it with other cars :)

Meet a rank amateur then. I couldn't adjust a car to a given track if I didn't have a known base. I believe one has to know how the car will handle or one won't be able to push it hard enough to find out what to change. I used to have different setups for all the cars, but now most of the time I find one click overall (to adjust for total weight) or one click on the springs to accommodate weight distribution or the odd damper adjustment to "tighten things up" from the base suffises for me. Number of clutches in the differential needs to be set/compromised per car and top gear/progression adjusted per car/track combo, but chassis setup remains pretty constant across the various tracks (as was more or less the case back then, I'm led to believe). Real time is found on the track, not in the garage. Obviously, with lower forula cars all having the same engine, the setup work per track reduces ever further. I have found only Monaco and Zandvoort (shorter) and Spa (taller) need a gearing change. With unlimited practise time, slight improvements could be made by fine tuning setups further (assymetric... etc.) but I think you will find a lot of that has more to do with knowing the track like the back of one's hand by then than anything else. In my situation (zero practise for most races) I find it doesn't pay to look for that extra half a second and subsequently crash because this latest setup creation throws up a surprise under race conditions. Better slightly slower but consistent. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Stephen Smith" wrote...

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> Alex, > > Since Papy went to the trouble to model different engine > curves, different wheelbases, different tracks, different > weights, different c.g.s, different aero, etc., for each > car in the game, I'm amazed anybody but a rank amateur (or > somebody with a remarkably dead butt) would think one > setup would work for more than one car. Then again, I > know some churls who don't even bother to change the setup > (except top gear) from track to track! > > --Steve Smith

> Then again, I know some churls who don't even bother > to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! So Jim Clark comes into this category then? To my knowledge he used the same setup from track to track except gearing. When he did make a change after winning the event he asked his mechanics to put it back the way it was! Of course there will be different approaches. Those that have the ability to adapt to be fast with seemingly any setups, and those that take the scientific approach to understanding the theory of how the car behaves in different conditions to find that extra speed. Not sure I fit either of those being seemingly average with any setup :-( Tony

Jim Clark couldn't play GPL. Neither could Portago, who knew so little abt. cars that he used to scrawl his initials inside the door sill so he could remember which cars he'd driven. You think this invalidates my argument? --Steve "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yqk47.79902$[email hidden]...

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> > Then again, I know some churls who don't even bother > > to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! > > So Jim Clark comes into this category then? > > To my knowledge he used the same setup from track to track except gearing. > When he did make a change after winning the event he asked his mechanics

to > put it back the way it was! > > Of course there will be different approaches. Those that have the abilityto

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> adapt to be fast with seemingly any setups, and those that take the > scientific approach to understanding the theory of how the car behaves in > different conditions to find that extra speed. Not sure I fit either of > those being seemingly average with any setup :-( > > Tony > >

In article <7tj47.49497$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >Since Papy went to the trouble to model different engine curves, different >wheelbases, different tracks, different weights, different c.g.s, different >aero, etc., for each car in the game, I'm amazed anybody but a rank amateur >(or somebody with a remarkably dead butt) would think one setup would work >for more than one car. Then again, I know some churls who don't even bother >to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! Well, I had problems driving the Eagle around Indy. I took my Cooper setup and copied it to the Eagle. Now I can get the Eagle around the track quite well, thank you...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Stephen Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7tj47.49497$[email hidden]... > Since Papy went to the trouble to model different engine curves,different > wheelbases, different tracks, different weights, different c.g.s,different > aero, etc., for each car in the game, I'm amazed anybody but a rankamateur > (or somebody with a remarkably dead butt) would think one setupwould work > for more than one car. Then again, I know some churls who don'teven bother > to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! Fully agreed in principle, except that I've found much the same thing: once I've developed a setup which seems to work well for (say) the Coventry, I can transfer it to another car (perhaps the Ferrari or the Eagle) and it'll be somewhere near. It certainly doesn't result in the second car handling identically, but I can usually 'sort it' with a no more than a couple of clicks on any one tweak. I do wonder just how different the cars really are - they're all around the same weight and dimensions in absolute terms, and are possibly on the same tyres so you'd expect /similar/ numbers to work okay. Does anyone know whether roll centres and camber curves vary between cars? I import original gearing back to the new car, though - no way I can see the same ratios working across engines! Jonny

In article <Qin47.45089$[email hidden]>, "jp_hodgson" <[email hidden]> writes: >I do wonder just how different the cars really are - they're all >around the same weight and dimensions in absolute terms, and are >possibly on the same tyres so you'd expect /similar/ numbers to work >okay. Does anyone know whether roll centres and camber curves vary >between cars? > There is a table giving the weight distribution on http://geocities.com/n_heusink/gplsetupgids/setupgids.htm I have seen a table giving different front and rear width, which differs a bit, too. (some cars are smaller at the front, some aren't, iirc) Calis

I don't want to be churlish myself, here. The main reasons why Clark & Co. didn't mess with the setups in those days were 1. The mechanics knew very little about it, 2. They didn't have time (you didn't just hit a radio button, go to a setup screen, and punch in a new value--they barely got to the circuits in time to unload the cars and out them on the pit road), and 3. They didn't have the Bits & Pieces (with the the 49, when it was first introduced, you couldn't change the lower 3 gears at all, as I remmeber). --Steve "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gwk47.48378$[email hidden]...

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> Jim Clark couldn't play GPL. > > Neither could Portago, who knew so little abt. cars that he used to scrawl > his initials inside the door sill so he could remember which cars he'd > driven. > > You think this invalidates my argument? > > --Steve > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:yqk47.79902$[email hidden]... > > > Then again, I know some churls who don't even bother > > > to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! > > > > So Jim Clark comes into this category then? > > > > To my knowledge he used the same setup from track to track except

gearing. > > When he did make a change after winning the event he asked his mechanics > to > > put it back the way it was! > > > > Of course there will be different approaches. Those that have theability > to > > adapt to be fast with seemingly any setups, and those that take the > > scientific approach to understanding the theory of how the car behavesin

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> > different conditions to find that extra speed. Not sure I fit either of > > those being seemingly average with any setup :-( > > > > Tony > > > > > >

No wonder yer so fast, Eldred! "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <7tj47.49497$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Smith" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Since Papy went to the trouble to model different engine curves,different > >wheelbases, different tracks, different weights, different c.g.s,different > >aero, etc., for each car in the game, I'm amazed anybody but a rankamateur > >(or somebody with a remarkably dead butt) would think one setup wouldwork > >for more than one car. Then again, I know some churls who don't evenbother > >to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! > > Well, I had problems driving the Eagle around Indy. I took my Coopersetup and > copied it to the Eagle. Now I can get the Eagle around the track quitewell,

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> thank you...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Have you driven a BRM and a Lotus in the same session? Day? Month? The former has no torque, and has to be rowed around with the gearbox (thank God it's got an extra gear), and the latter has so much torque it doesn't matter what gear yer in. Which is not to say a bad setup won't work for a good driver...or v.v., or any other combo. --Steve "jp_hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qin47.45089$[email hidden]...

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> > Stephen Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7tj47.49497$[email hidden]... > > > Since Papy went to the trouble to model different engine curves, > different > > wheelbases, different tracks, different weights, different c.g.s, > different > > aero, etc., for each car in the game, I'm amazed anybody but a rank > amateur > > (or somebody with a remarkably dead butt) would think one setup > would work > > for more than one car. Then again, I know some churls who don't > even bother > > to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! > > Fully agreed in principle, except that I've found much the same thing: > once I've developed a setup which seems to work well for (say) the > Coventry, I can transfer it to another car (perhaps the Ferrari or the > Eagle) and it'll be somewhere near. It certainly doesn't result in > the second car handling identically, but I can usually 'sort it' with > a no more than a couple of clicks on any one tweak. > > I do wonder just how different the cars really are - they're all > around the same weight and dimensions in absolute terms, and are > possibly on the same tyres so you'd expect /similar/ numbers to work > okay. Does anyone know whether roll centres and camber curves vary > between cars? > > I import original gearing back to the new car, though - no way I can > see the same ratios working across engines! > > Jonny > >

Calis, Yes the tire widths (and relative front-to-rear widths) are also fully modeled--I just didn't see the need to beat my own argument to death with more facts than I'd already marshalled. But thanx for noticing. --Steve "Herbert Pohlai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9iuc5g$77q$[email hidden]...

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> In article <Qin47.45089$[email hidden]>, > "jp_hodgson" <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I do wonder just how different the cars really are - they're all > >around the same weight and dimensions in absolute terms, and are > >possibly on the same tyres so you'd expect /similar/ numbers to work > >okay. Does anyone know whether roll centres and camber curves vary > >between cars? > > > > There is a table giving the weight distribution on > http://geocities.com/n_heusink/gplsetupgids/setupgids.htm > > I have seen a table giving different front and rear width, which > differs a bit, too. (some cars are smaller at the front, some aren't,

iirc) > > Calis

Stephen Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S7J47.54618$[email hidden]... > Have you driven a BRM and a Lotus in the same session? Day? Month?The > former has no torque, and has to be rowed around with the gearbox(thank God > it's got an extra gear), and the latter has so much torque itdoesn't matter > what gear yer in. As I said: gear ratios /don't/ transfer! I don't claim to be an expert, but I do enjoy developing setups and I seemed to be arriving at similar settings for different cars - it was a logical extension to try transferring entire setups, and I haven't yet found it to produce horrible results <shrug> Admittedly, too, I don't have the time to drive all the cars - I'm primarily hunting GPLRank right now, so "this season Oi 'ave bin mostly" using the Cooper to re-learn circuits, followed by the Eagle or Ferrari to try to find some more pace. > Which is not to say a bad setup won't work for a good driver...orv.v., or > any other combo. Sure. I rate myself as a mediocre driver (not /bad/, just not great either) but pretty good with setups. I've also developed some fairly specific preferences for handling (through model car racing) - mostly to do with having large amounts of power-on steering :-) Jonny

We might be having a mis-communication here. i have used specific setups and ones for other marques...Some feel good to me and others don't. I don't have the proficiency in GPL to get the maximum from a setup so swapping marques isn't that big a deal. I believe your assesments are correct about the differences between the brands, but if you don't have to talent to exploit the differences...such as myself, then not using brand-specific setups isn't such a taboo. dave henrie "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S7J47.54618$[email hidden]... > Have you driven a BRM and a Lotus in the same session? Day? Month? The > former has no torque, and has to be rowed around with the gearbox (thankGod > it's got an extra gear), and the latter has so much torque it doesn'tmatter

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> what gear yer in. > > Which is not to say a bad setup won't work for a good driver...or v.v., or > any other combo. > > --Steve > > "jp_hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Qin47.45089$[email hidden]... > > > > Stephen Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:7tj47.49497$[email hidden]... > > > > > Since Papy went to the trouble to model different engine curves, > > different > > > wheelbases, different tracks, different weights, different c.g.s, > > different > > > aero, etc., for each car in the game, I'm amazed anybody but a rank > > amateur > > > (or somebody with a remarkably dead butt) would think one setup > > would work > > > for more than one car. Then again, I know some churls who don't > > even bother > > > to change the setup (except top gear) from track to track! > > > > Fully agreed in principle, except that I've found much the same thing: > > once I've developed a setup which seems to work well for (say) the > > Coventry, I can transfer it to another car (perhaps the Ferrari or the > > Eagle) and it'll be somewhere near. It certainly doesn't result in > > the second car handling identically, but I can usually 'sort it' with > > a no more than a couple of clicks on any one tweak. > > > > I do wonder just how different the cars really are - they're all > > around the same weight and dimensions in absolute terms, and are > > possibly on the same tyres so you'd expect /similar/ numbers to work > > okay. Does anyone know whether roll centres and camber curves vary > > between cars? > > > > I import original gearing back to the new car, though - no way I can > > see the same ratios working across engines! > > > > Jonny > > > > > >

Sorry, JP; I didn't respond to: > I do wonder just how different the cars really are - they're all > around the same weight and dimensions in absolute terms, and are > possibly on the same tyres so you'd expect /similar/ numbers to work > okay. Does anyone know whether roll centres and camber curves vary > between cars? As far as I know, the suspension geometry itself is kinda "idealized;" that is, generic. This is informed speculation on my part; I have no specific knowledge. But, for sure, there are wide variations between the engine & torque curves (hence, mid-range acceleration), the weights (the BRM weighs a TON...and feels every ounce of it), the wheelbases (the main reason why the long-w.b.Cooper is so sweet-handling), the tire sizes & contact patches, the aero (which affects top-gear acceleration as well as Vmax), even the physical size of the cars (the tiny, F2-based Brabham is easier to shepherd around the confines of Monaco than, say, the Brobdinagian BRM). --Steve

"Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:S7J47.54618$[email hidden]:

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> Have you driven a BRM and a Lotus in the same session? Day? Month? > The former has no torque, and has to be rowed around with the gearbox > (thank God it's got an extra gear), and the latter has so much torque > it doesn't matter what gear yer in. > > Which is not to say a bad setup won't work for a good driver...or v.v., > or any other combo. > > --Steve >

The opinion I've expressed in original post seems to become more and more distorted. First, I've used the same chassis setup, but not the same drive train setup. Ramp angles, clutches and gearing are signigicantly different. I didn't even said that the car handling was the same. Actually it was definitively different. My point was that the same settings for the chassis produced handling that I liked more than with the different settings. For example, Lotus and Honda with the same chassis setup handle differently, however I liked the way Honda handles with chassis setup from Lotus much more than I like Honda's handling with default (or any other I've tried) setup. The same applied to Cooper and Ferrari. My surprise was that the "optimal" for me handling for different cars was achieved with the same chassis setup. Hopefully this will clear thing a bit. I also agree with opinion that one must be a good driver to extract advantages coming from having special chassis setup for each car. I consider setup good if it feels like there are rails underneath. Otherwise I will usually crash every 3rd lap (except 'Ring where I will crash 3 times per lap), even if the setup is capable of producing much faster times. Alex (alexti)

In article <_4J47.54599$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >No wonder yer so fast, Eldred! That's only ONE track, Stephen...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Alex <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> The opinion I've expressed in original post seems to become > more and more distorted. First, I've used the same chassis > setup, but not the same drive train setup. Ramp angles, clutches > and gearing are signigicantly different. I didn't even said that > the car handling was the same. Actually it was definitively > different. My point was that the same settings for the chassis > produced handling that I liked more than with the different > settings. For example, Lotus and Honda with the same chassis > setup handle differently, however I liked the way Honda handles > with chassis setup from Lotus much more than I like Honda's > handling with default (or any other I've tried) setup. The > same applied to Cooper and Ferrari. > > My surprise was that the "optimal" for me handling for > different cars was achieved with the same chassis setup.

At risk of breaching Netiquette: me too! Although I seem to vary ramp angles only by track, not by car... Otherwise I'm in complete agreement. Jonny