GPL - from joystick to wheel (the early learning centre diary) - LONG

Hope you forgive this rather long-winded diatribe, but I've been such a long-time joystick user that I thought it might be interesting to some to read what my first few days experience of taking up the wheel driving mantle has been like. Well guys, all my joysticks were giving me shit and so on saturday I headed down to EB here in the UK thinking I would try just one more. However, temptation got the better of me and I walked (or was that flew?) out with an FF wheel from Thrustmaster instead, palms already getting sweaty with anticipation and expectation of exciting things to come. Now, my joystick days had been pretty good to me in the past with my GPLrank in days past being well inside the top fifty though I had let things lapse since about July last year and hadn't been able to devote as much time as I had previously to GPL. Still, when I needed to and when my joysticks were in good working order I could still cut the mustard on the old tarmac with the best of 'em. So, with that in mind, I thought to myself as I legged it home that this wheel driving wouldn't really be that much different. Day 1: Frantically opened the box pulled out the wheel and immediately realised my first difficulty. Don't know how I made the mistake, but I had mis- read that the wheel provided connections for joystick port or USB. Unfortunately it was serial and not joystick. Major no-no using my serial port as I already had an external modem and didn't fancy continual swapping of devices, as well as the fact that there would be no chance of displaying my driving skills online. So it would have to be USB. Trouble was I was still running Win95b and I already was aware of the temperamentality and darn right flakiness of the USB patch for this windows incarnation. So, just to test things out I disconnected the modem and plugged in the wheel and booted up. Windows found the wheel no problem and things were getting exciting again as I popped in the CD and loaded up the drivers. Once into windows it was time to calibrate and so into the controllers applet I nipped, but hey! What's this? 'Not Connected?' Duh? It found the bugger alright, but now thinks it's not there and no amount of rechecking connections and turning things off and on would remedy it. Uninstall time and start again, but this time I'd go the whole hog and add USB support. Bum, times moving on and I want to race! Anyway, same problem with USB installed. It finds the wheel but then doesn't think it's connected. Aaargh! What am I doing wrong? The manual's a waste of time and so are the readme's. Also windows is starting to play up during boot ups - a common symptom of USB on win95 - with protection errors sprouting up with my computer eventually not wanting to boot at all, with the same windows protection error displaying each time. Over an hour gone and I'm no nearer to trying this out and the inevitable is starting to loom large. Yes, a complete install of my system using my win98 CD. I had been putting this off to a day when I gave my computer a major hardware overhaul - new mobo and cpu - but needs must as they say and I really needed to get this working. Anyway, suffice it to say that the installation of win98 didn't go completely smoothly. It kept telling me I had a previous version of windows on my system and should run the 98 upgrade instead. This was despite fdisk and format of partition C. In the end I had to fdisk c as well as my extended partitions of d,e and f. Don't ask me why, by once my whole disk had been wiped it was happy. BTW all useful data etc had been backed up to a 2nd HD. At least that went smoothly. :) Right, we're getting there believe me, though there's been something like 4 hours since buying the wheel to the point where I once again connect it to the USB port, boot up and load the drivers for the wheel. Damn! Once again it's not connected. What's with this shit? Anyway, a bit of messing with the USB ports from inside the case and ensuring that they're connected to the mobo properly and then turning the wheel on before booting and this time the wheels 'OK'. Hurrah!! Right time to get playing and, for a simple test I first loaded up MBTR and checked out the feel of things. First thing I notice is that the give on the pedals are way too soft. I just can't feel whether I'm pressing them or not, but I can at least keep the beast on the track without too much difficulty so I better load GPL and try the real test. Mind you, times getting on and I'm starving. Better eat first. Start to load GPL and the CD is playing up now so wipe it down, but it still doesn't want to autorun and my computer crashes when I attempt a Ctrl-alt-del thinking that removing the cd would guarantee a BSOD. Don't tell me my GPL cd has had it! Christ almighty! What next?! Eventually I have to run setup by clicking on the icon and, with fingers crossed I watch the percentage bar creep towards 100%. Success! Right, can't be arsed to copy my saved data over the top and so it's into GPL 1.0 for some rip-roaring Lotus, motor action. After calibrating and playing with the linearity settings I make Monza the first port of call. Previous best with joystick of 1:27.4 so, if I keep it steady with my knowledge of the GPL physics and a sub 1:30 should be in order. Not likely mate! First impressions - steering is smoother, but also more difficult to correct when it starts to go wrong. And I'm now finding the lack of feel in the pedals a major drawback. I realise this after taking the left kink at Della Roggia and then, expecting my usual braking to take place, find myself swapping ends in the blink of an eye as the whole balance of the car is everywhere except in a straight line. A few more laps. Several more spins. I'm having to baby the Lotus - my personal preference - around every corner. Having to brake from twice the distance as usual, and still the car is getting out of shape. Oversteer is a nightmare and once she starts to go there's no saving her. Am I pressing the brake or resting on the accelerator without realising it? I remove my trainers. Better, but still very, very irratic. More crashes on each lap, with the occasional semi-clean one thrown in and I retire for the day with a rather paltry 1:32.8 for a pb and an average clean lap time nearer to the 1:35 mark. This isn't going according to plan. Day 2: I only find time for about an hours practice - still on v1.0 - and things don't really improve. What am I doing wrong? Still more bad laps than good, plus I can't get comfortable. Either the wheel's too far away or the pedals are too close, or vice versa and I'm spending far too much time worrying about where my feet are. This has got to be sorted. Still, despite no signs that I'm learning anything, I do manage to improve by nearly a couple of seconds down to 1:30.99, though I'm definitely an accident waiting to happen. I've even crashed going along the straights and I'm still having to tiptoe through the corners where I used to really attack. Especially both Lesmos and Parabolica. If I try to get the car turned in at any sort of decent speed and the back end comes around on me. And even if I manage to catch it I then find the car overcorrecting in the opposite direction and so spin out that way. These wheel guys really have my admiration for just keeping it on the track. Day 3: monday Right, time to fix the feel of the pedals problem. 2 tennis balls, some wood, a bit of d-i-y and an hour later and I've got something with plenty of resistance. Also I copy over the top of GPL the whole of the original GPL folders that I had backed up and so I've got all my old setups and settings back. I notice the brake has still got some slight travel in it - which will need some extra d-i-y - but, in the meantime I calibrate that out for now. This is better, I can now drive with my favourite trainers again and can really feel things through the pedals. Shame I'm not showing any improvement. The first half hour goes pretty much like the previous 2 days with plenty of unexpected offs and spins and average clean laps in the 1:34 - 1:35 range. But then I'm able to string some clean laps together and reasonably quick by my new standards, with most of them coming in under 1:32 and including one lap of 1:29.8. However, it's all brought to an abrupt end with a major unexpected crash. I'm getting better, but still erratic born out of not able to anticipate what's going to happen next. Anyway, with new found enthusiasm, I do a quick shift-r and think to myself that this last stint of 13 odd laps worth of fuel will have to do as time is short. Now things are starting to come together. My cornering is getting more predictable and I start to notice what's going on and am able to deal with it before it gets beyond the point of no return. It's early days and so trail braking and all those other sophisticated techniques such as using brake and accelerator at the same time to control the car through the corners are out of the question, but my times start to improve. Consistency is now in the low 1:30s or even in the 1:29s and, to cap it all, I manage a 1:28.68. Only 1.2 seconds of my joystick pb. I'm really chuffed with that, though I'm a long way from the kind of reliability of driving that means that no other track apart from Monza has yet been attempted. I used to be able to really attack these circuits when joystick driving and could catch almost anything my overdriving and the physics engine could throw at me, whereas I'm still being pretty cautious into the turns as, if I go in too deep, I'm generally toast. Still, maybe tomorrow eh? There's no turning back now. Even if I am never able to match my old times this is still a whole lot more fun :) -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

Peter, just a thought... have you actually set up the FF in GPL? I mean turned off centering spring and set the values in the core.ini, etc... BTW: you could have just gone with the Win98 upgrade... same result. Jan. =--- Peter Ives wrote... > Hope you forgive this rather long-winded diatribe, > <snip>

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Peter, just a thought... have you actually set up the FF in GPL? I mean > turned off centering spring and set the values in the core.ini, etc... > > BTW: you could have just gone with the Win98 upgrade... same result. > > Jan. > =---

I was thinking exactly the same thing myself. FF only works in version 1.2 of GPL. I suspect you are getting the non-FF centring forces from the wheel Peter. Cheers Phil

I went through the same thing trying to switch from right foot to left foot braking in GPL. Your feet and legs just need some time to learn how to do what your brain wants. "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hope you forgive this rather long-winded diatribe, but I've been such a > long-time joystick user that I thought it might be interesting to some > to read what my first few days experience of taking up the wheel driving > mantle has been like. >

In article <[email hidden]>, Jan Verschueren <jan.no- [email hidden]> writes >Peter, just a thought... have you actually set up the FF in GPL? I mean >turned off centering spring and set the values in the core.ini, etc... > Nope, not yet. Wasn't sure if it would suck cpu resources and my poor old k6-2 450 has trouble doing 36fps as it is. So I've left it off. >BTW: you could have just gone with the Win98 upgrade... same result. > Yes, but didn't have the upgrade disk, only the full disk. I prefer things this way. I do like to wipe my system clean once in a while and have the full version seems more convenient for this.

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>Jan. >=--- >Peter Ives wrote... >> Hope you forgive this rather long-winded diatribe, >> <snip> > >

-- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

In article <7RiF6.7077$[email hidden]>, Phil Lee <[email hidden]> writes

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> >"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in >message >news:[email hidden]... >> Peter, just a thought... have you actually set up the FF in GPL? I mean >> turned off centering spring and set the values in the core.ini, etc... >> >> BTW: you could have just gone with the Win98 upgrade... same result. >> >> Jan. >> =--- > >I was thinking exactly the same thing myself. FF only works in version 1.2 >of GPL. I suspect you are getting the non-FF centring forces from the wheel >Peter. >

No, really it was my initial bad driving. When I copied my backed up gpl folders over the top these included gpl 1.2. That is the version I am now running. However, I have noticed that if I try any drastic wheel movements I can feel the wheel resisting. Is it possible to disable this for now? -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

In article <3ae5ba99$0$36589$[email hidden]>, Kirk House <[email hidden]> writes >I went through the same thing trying to switch from right foot to left foot >braking in GPL. Your feet and legs just need some time to learn how to do >what your brain wants. > It's getting better, though what I have noticed is the new found aches and pains that manifest themselves after a relatively short amount of driving. Especially in my left foot where I'm still consciously trying to keep it just above the pedal when not using it. That's why I need some extra d-i-y so that I can lightly rest it on the brake pedal and still know that its not actually going to depress it at all. Joystick driving was much easier. Just sit the thing on a flat surface on your lap and you're away. Hardly any aches at all. Wheel and pedals requires some major setting up in order to get the whole thing feeling comfortable. It occurred to me early on that the hotshoes must have really good wheel/pedal setups - those that they are confident with - otherwise they would be spending too much time shifting their bodies or moving their feet about and not concentrating on what's happening on the screen. Although that Monza time was good considering the short amount of time I've had to acclimatise, I still feel a long learning curve is lying ahead. The idea of even attempting the ring for instance is just not even remotely on the cards. Despite a pb of 8:05. Just the thought of it gives me the willies, big time. However, I want to redo my GPLrank and so I may have to give it a go anyway.

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> >"Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in >message >news:[email hidden]... >> Hope you forgive this rather long-winded diatribe, but I've been such a >> long-time joystick user that I thought it might be interesting to some >> to read what my first few days experience of taking up the wheel driving >> mantle has been like. >> > > >

-- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Peter Ives wrote... > <snip> > Nope, not yet. Wasn't sure if it would suck cpu resources > and my poor old k6-2 450 has trouble doing 36fps as it is. > So I've left it off. Ye gods Peter!! You just cannot do that... if you use an FF wheel you've got to use FF, otherwise it's worse than a normal spring or bungee return one as it's too heavy to turn using the motor as a return spring. You shouldn't experience much of a fps hit with GPL, it's pretty efficient in that respect. A buddy of mine had the exact same system (with a single V2) and he did alright with his TM-wheel. He upgraded to a V3 to get some more eyecandy though. Anyway, I can honestly say FF in GPL is worth giving up a few textures for. Meanwhile you can reduce the wheel's resistance to movement by turning down the damping setting of your wheel. Warning, back off too much on that without turning it on as part of the FF in GPL will make the car's tendency to "snap" back at you greater.

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> > BTW: you could have just gone with the Win98 > > upgrade... same result. > > Yes, but didn't have the upgrade disk, only the full disk. > I prefer things this way. I do like to wipe my system clean > once in a while and have the full version seems more > convenient for this.

It is, but you can do the "upgrade" using the full version, just ignore the warnings and install. Think you might need to boot from a floppy instead of straight from the CD-Rom to do so though. Unless yours is an OEM version, of course. Jan. =---

In article <[email hidden]>, Jan Verschueren <jan.no- [email hidden]> writes

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> >Peter Ives wrote... >> <snip> >> Nope, not yet. Wasn't sure if it would suck cpu resources >> and my poor old k6-2 450 has trouble doing 36fps as it is. >> So I've left it off. > >Ye gods Peter!! You just cannot do that... if you use an FF wheel you've got >to use FF, otherwise it's worse than a normal spring or bungee return one as >it's too heavy to turn using the motor as a return spring. You shouldn't >experience much of a fps hit with GPL, it's pretty efficient in that >respect. A buddy of mine had the exact same system (with a single V2) and >he >did alright with his TM-wheel. He upgraded to a V3 to get some more >eyecandy >though. Anyway, I can honestly say FF in GPL is worth giving up a few >textures for. > >Meanwhile you can reduce the wheel's resistance to movement by turning >down >the damping setting of your wheel. Warning, back off too much on that >without turning it on as part of the FF in GPL will make the car's tendency >to "snap" back at you greater. >

Ok, found the damper settings, but also found a box that I can tick which sets spring forces in non-ff games. I've ticked that for now., though do I also need to turn down the damper setting which is currently at 100%? I probably will get around to ff - when I finally upgrade my system - but I've got most things turned off as it is, even with a v3 2000. Also, I just want to see how capable I am compared to when I was using a joystick. Gonna give it a month's hard practice to see how I compare. My view is, if I could do it with a joystick then I want to at least get close with a wheel. A couple of things I've noticed today though. Tried a few other tracks now, the last being Kyalami and the Juksket is a real pain. Using the same setup as my old pb of 1:19.01 - a setup gleaned from one of the hotshoes - and I keep getting perpetual unrecoverable oversteer with the back end coming round, even though the speeds are no quicker than I was doing previously with my joystick. Also, the brakes lockup really heavily. I watched a replay of my good joystick lap and, despite the fact that a common braking technique was to slam the anchors on hard and then just ease off slightly during downshifts, there was little sign of wheel lockup. However, with my wheel I can't get anywhere near full on braking without huge great black tyre marks all over the road. It could be that I will need to re- calibrate, but I've noticed this all along and can't figure out what's different.

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>> > BTW: you could have just gone with the Win98 >> > upgrade... same result. >> >> Yes, but didn't have the upgrade disk, only the full disk. >> I prefer things this way. I do like to wipe my system clean >> once in a while and have the full version seems more >> convenient for this. > >It is, but you can do the "upgrade" using the full version, just ignore the >warnings and install. Think you might need to boot from a floppy instead of >straight from the CD-Rom to do so though. Unless yours is an OEM version, >of >course. >

Trouble was, that I had already formatted my C drive and win95 didn't really exist anymore. Despite this the error box would pop up only showing an ok button which, once clicked on would result in end of installation. There literally was no getting beyond this point. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Peter Ives wrote... > Ok, found the damper settings, but also found a box that > I can tick which sets spring forces in non-ff games. I've > ticked that for now., though do I also need to turn > down the damper setting which is currently at 100%? Yes, consummately, I found. I now run about 35% damper setting for all things non-GPL (0% for GPL with FF turned on). Another thing I forgot to say is you will need to adjust your linearity slider in GPL completely to the left (or nearly so). This is different from joystick and you will need to change your setups somewhat to accomodate. > I probably will get around to ff - when I finally upgrade > my system - but I've got most things turned off as it is, > even with a v3 2000. What resolution? 800x600 you should be able to have most stuff on when you're on your own or online. Have you tried George Smiley's mirror patch? -Big difference. > Also, I just want to see how capable I am compared to > when I was using a joystick. Gonna give it a month's > hard practice to see how I compare. My view is, if I > could do it with a joystick then I want to at least get > close with a wheel. Warped preposition... you cannot do exactly the same with a wheel as you did with a joystick, your setups and driving style must change. Whether you end up faster or not within a month is not a good judge of how you fare with a wheel, IMO. To acchieve your full potential as a driver and consistency a) takes longer and b) requires finely tuned FF, again IMO. Personally, I recently thought I'd hit my limits and any attempt to go faster was leading me to overdriving. Then a couple of bad online races got me to try (slightly) different FF settings and now I see a lot of scope again, but at the same time know it will take me longer than a month to learn to fully exploit the new feel. Similar to getting used to running a 45/85 differential, took me about 3 months, but at the end I was consistently faster everywhere.

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> A couple of things I've noticed today though. Tried a few > other tracks now, the last being Kyalami and the Juksket is > a real pain. Using the same setup as my old pb of 1:19.01 > - a setup gleaned from one of the hotshoes - and I keep > getting perpetual unrecoverable oversteer with the back end > coming round, even though the speeds are no quicker than I was > doing previously with my joystick. > > Also, the brakes lockup really heavily. I watched a replay > of my good joystick lap and, despite the fact that a common > braking technique was to slam the anchors on hard and then > just ease off slightly during downshifts, there was little > sign of wheel lockup. However, with my wheel I can't get > anywhere near full on braking without huge great black > tyre marks all over the road. It could be that I will > need to recalibrate, but I've noticed this all along and > can't figure out what's different.

Like I said, you will need to adjust your linearity slider, change your setups, your line and your driving style to accomodate. Will take time, but in the end the immersion is all the greater, especially with FF turned on. > ><snip> > Trouble was, that I had already formatted my C drive and > win95 didn't really exist anymore. Despite this the error > box would pop up only showing an ok button which, once > clicked on would result in end of installation. There > literally was no getting beyond this point. That's strange... it shouldn't do that. Never mind. Jan. =---

[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in <[email hidden]>:

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>It's getting better, though what I have noticed is the new found aches >and pains that manifest themselves after a relatively short amount of >driving. Especially in my left foot where I'm still consciously trying >to keep it just above the pedal when not using it. That's why I need >some extra d-i-y so that I can lightly rest it on the brake pedal and >still know that its not actually going to depress it at all. Joystick >driving was much easier. Just sit the thing on a flat surface on your >lap and you're away. Hardly any aches at all. Wheel and pedals >requires some major setting up in order to get the whole thing feeling >comfortable. It occurred to me early on that the hotshoes must have >really good wheel/pedal setups - those that they are confident with - >otherwise they would be spending too much time shifting their bodies or >moving their feet about and not concentrating on what's happening on the >screen.

Did you try to put your pedal unit on top of something? When I had it on the floor my feet were getting tired too, after I've set pedals some 7-9 inches higher it became much more comfortable. Alex (alexti)

> Did you try to put your pedal unit on top of something? When I had > it on the floor my feet were getting tired too, after I've set > pedals some 7-9 inches higher it became much more comfortable. > Alex > (alexti) Same trick here.. I cannot drive without my trusty bookfilled cardboardbox under the pedals, and something (anything) stuck underneath to give a slight angle. I have been driving a lot of GPL the last months with no problems. I then went to a GPL LAN meeting and had to drive without my weird pedal setup and instantly got a hurting left foot... not good for your laptimes ;) Mikkel

In article <[email hidden]>, Alex <[email hidden]> writes

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>[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in ><[email hidden]>: > >>It's getting better, though what I have noticed is the new found aches >>and pains that manifest themselves after a relatively short amount of >>driving. Especially in my left foot where I'm still consciously trying >>to keep it just above the pedal when not using it. That's why I need >>some extra d-i-y so that I can lightly rest it on the brake pedal and >>still know that its not actually going to depress it at all. Joystick >>driving was much easier. Just sit the thing on a flat surface on your >>lap and you're away. Hardly any aches at all. Wheel and pedals >>requires some major setting up in order to get the whole thing feeling >>comfortable. It occurred to me early on that the hotshoes must have >>really good wheel/pedal setups - those that they are confident with - >>otherwise they would be spending too much time shifting their bodies or >>moving their feet about and not concentrating on what's happening on the >>screen. > >Did you try to put your pedal unit on top of something? When I had >it on the floor my feet were getting tired too, after I've set >pedals some 7-9 inches higher it became much more comfortable. >

Gee, so many things to try out. So little time. Hehe. Nope, never even thought of that and indeed it may help. At the moment though I think I've done well in just knocking up a unit that allows the pedals to feel more solid instead of all flimsy, as well as keeping it firmly in one position on the floor. This box of yours could well upset the apple cart if I don't think it through properly. Who knows? Mind you, the left foot ache is without doubt stemming from the fact that, because I haven't quite got everything 100% solidly in place, resulting in still some slight play in the brake pedal, I'm trying to hold my left foot in a rather awkward position about a quarter of an inch just above it. With this in mind I had devised a way of making my whole pedal rig more solid, so that there will be absolutely no play in either pedal without some serious pressure. This should allow me to rest both feet on the pedals when not using them. Unfortunately, when I popped in to my local d-i-y store today to get what I was looking for, they didn't have anything that met my requirements and so I need to check elsewhere. I know what pieces I want and am sure that once I get them it's going to work. I just need to know where to get them. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

In article <[email hidden]>, Jan Verschueren <jan.no- [email hidden]> writes

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>Peter Ives wrote... >> Ok, found the damper settings, but also found a box that >> I can tick which sets spring forces in non-ff games. I've >> ticked that for now., though do I also need to turn >> down the damper setting which is currently at 100%? > >Yes, consummately, I found. I now run about 35% damper setting for all >things non-GPL (0% for GPL with FF turned on). >

Cheers, will try them out. > Another thing I forgot to say is you will need to adjust your linearity >slider in GPL completely to the left (or nearly so). This is different from >joystick and you will need to change your setups somewhat to accomodate. > First thing I did was change the linearity. What am I? Stoopid or something? :)

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>> I probably will get around to ff - when I finally upgrade >> my system - but I've got most things turned off as it is, >> even with a v3 2000. > >What resolution? 800x600 you should be able to have most stuff on when >you're on your own or online. Have you tried George Smiley's mirror >patch? -Big difference. >

Only 640x480 which allows me to race with up to a dozen AI opponents with most eye-candy turned off and the Detail Bias at about 25%. Believe me, I've played around with these settings way too much in the past to want to start messing with them again now. You know, I certainly did download the mirror patch, and did install it. However, not sure whether just copying everything back to way it was would still allow it to work.

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>> Also, I just want to see how capable I am compared to >> when I was using a joystick. Gonna give it a month's >> hard practice to see how I compare. My view is, if I >> could do it with a joystick then I want to at least get >> close with a wheel. > >Warped preposition... you cannot do exactly the same with a wheel as you >did >with a joystick, your setups and driving style must change. Whether you end >up faster or not within a month is not a good judge of how you fare with a >wheel, IMO. To acchieve your full potential as a driver and consistency a) >takes longer and b) requires finely tuned FF, again IMO. >

What I was trying to get at was the fact that, because of my previous abilities and experience, the GPL physics engine shouldn't be able to throw anything at me that should catch me out. This should give me a head start over those that are coming to GPL with a wheel first time, and therefore should allow me a faster learning curve. Let's be honest, I doubt very much that a complete GPL novice could achieve a 1:28.6 at Monza after just 4 hours of play. Like I've stated before, my abilities at GPL with a joystick got to the point where I was always one step ahead of what the physics engine was going to throw at me. This knowledge should hopefully hold me in good stead despite the fact that I'm having to relearn how to drive. PS: the setups I used with my joystick and that I'm now using with my wheel, were ones downloaded from Schubi's site and are, without doubt created by those who were using steering wheels at the time. <snip> -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Peter Ives wrote... > <snip> > First thing I did was change the linearity. > What am I? Stoopid or something? :) How should I know? -You might be just forgetfull. ;-))

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> >> <snip> > Only 640x480 which allows me to race with up to a > dozen AI opponents with most eye-candy turned off > and the Detail Bias at about 25%. Believe me, I've > played around with these settings way too much in the > past to want to start messing with them again now. > You know, I certainly did download the mirror patch, > and did install it. However, not sure whether just > copying everything back to way it was would still > allow it to work.

Mirror patch should work (does here after two reinstalls anyway). Continue to be amazed you're not seeing more performance, but I'm sure you've done what you can to increase it, so better luck with the upgrade. > >> <snip> > What I was trying to get at was the fact that, because of > my previous abilities and experience, the GPL physics engine > shouldn't be able to throw anything at me that should catch > me out. I'm very much aware of your prowess as a driver... kinda threw me you weren't using a wheel all along, actually. > This should give me a head start over those that are coming to > GPL with a wheel first time, and therefore should allow me a > faster learning curve. Let's be honest, I doubt very much > that a complete GPL novice could achieve a 1:28.6 at Monza after > just 4 hours of play. True, but still compressing 3 years of experience into one month is asking a lot of yourself, IMO. Depends on how much time one spends practising, naturally. > Like I've stated before, my abilities at GPL with a joystick got > to the point where I was always one step ahead of what the physics > engine was going to throw at me. This knowledge should hopefully > hold me in good stead despite the fact that I'm having to relearn > how to drive. I'm sure it will. > PS: the setups I used with my joystick and that I'm now using > with my wheel, were ones downloaded from Schubi's site and are, > without doubt created by those who were using steering wheels at > the time. You're a better man than I am Peter, I can't drive any of those. Cheers, Jan. =---

Peter, I missed what your video card is. Is it a Voodoo2? If so, have you tried these settings in your autoexec.bat file? SET FX_GLIDE_NO_SPLASH=1 SET SSTV2_VIDEO_FILTER_DISABLE=1 SET SSTV2_FASTMEM=1 SET SSTV2_FASTPCIRD=1 SET SSTV2_VIDEO_24BPP=0 SET SSTV2_RGAMMA=1.3 SET SSTV2_GGAMMA=1.3 SET SSTV2_BGAMMA=1.3 SET FX_GLIDE_SWAPINTERVAL=0 SET SSTV2_SWAP_EN_WAIT_ON_VSYNC=0 SET FX_GLIDE_SHAMELESS_PLUG=0 SET SSTV2_TRIPLE_BUFFER=0 SET SSTV2_MEMFIFO=1 SET SSTV2_FORCE_TRILINEAR=0 I spent a solid week when unemployed digging out every possible environment variable for the Voodoo2 and trying them in every permutation to come up with these as optimal for GPL. I run a Celeron 400 and have pretty tolerable FPS with most graphics options turned on, although some of the 3rd party tracks kick it's ass, FPS-wise still. <g> Regards, Brett C. Cammack brettDOTcammack@worldnetDOTattDOTnet (remove the DOTs from my return address to reply privately)

[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in <[email hidden]>:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Alex ><[email hidden]> writes >>[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in >><[email hidden]>: >> >>>It's getting better, though what I have noticed is the new found aches >>>and pains that manifest themselves after a relatively short amount of >>>driving. Especially in my left foot where I'm still consciously trying >>>to keep it just above the pedal when not using it. That's why I need >>>some extra d-i-y so that I can lightly rest it on the brake pedal and >>>still know that its not actually going to depress it at all. Joystick >>>driving was much easier. Just sit the thing on a flat surface on your >>>lap and you're away. Hardly any aches at all. Wheel and pedals >>>requires some major setting up in order to get the whole thing feeling >>>comfortable. It occurred to me early on that the hotshoes must have >>>really good wheel/pedal setups - those that they are confident with - >>>otherwise they would be spending too much time shifting their bodies or >>>moving their feet about and not concentrating on what's happening on the >>>screen. >> >>Did you try to put your pedal unit on top of something? When I had >>it on the floor my feet were getting tired too, after I've set >>pedals some 7-9 inches higher it became much more comfortable. >> > >Gee, so many things to try out. So little time. Hehe. Nope, never even >thought of that and indeed it may help. At the moment though I think >I've done well in just knocking up a unit that allows the pedals to feel >more solid instead of all flimsy, as well as keeping it firmly in one >position on the floor. This box of yours could well upset the apple >cart if I don't think it through properly. Who knows? > >Mind you, the left foot ache is without doubt stemming from the fact >that, because I haven't quite got everything 100% solidly in place, >resulting in still some slight play in the brake pedal, I'm trying to >hold my left foot in a rather awkward position about a quarter of an >inch just above it. With this in mind I had devised a way of making my >whole pedal rig more solid, so that there will be absolutely no play in >either pedal without some serious pressure. This should allow me to >rest both feet on the pedals when not using them. Unfortunately, when I >popped in to my local d-i-y store today to get what I was looking for, >they didn't have anything that met my requirements and so I need to >check elsewhere. I know what pieces I want and am sure that once I get >them it's going to work. I just need to know where to get them.

There're few more ideas: I understood you have Ferrari FF wheel. On my pedals I attached the spring between the front corners of the unit and the pedal lever just below the pedal plate. If you choose right springs you may get very nice and customizable feel. With my old T2 unit I did another thing: attached it to the wooden frame in vertical position making pedals work like in road car. Right after I did it I've got nice improvement in lap times (I was playing GP2 then). My next plan is to make reclined seat, otherwise my back gets tired after few hours of racing:) Alex (alexti)

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:22:49 +0200, Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote: >Peter Ives wrote... Thanks fon an interesting read, Peter. Now would anyone be interested in a "driving method" setting in gplrank? cheers, uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <[email hidden]>, Alex <[email hidden]> writes >[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in ><[email hidden]>: > <big snip>

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>There're few more ideas: I understood you have Ferrari FF wheel. On >my pedals I attached the spring between the front corners of the unit >and the pedal lever just below the pedal plate. If you choose right >springs you may get very nice and customizable feel. >With my old T2 unit I did another thing: attached it to the wooden frame >in vertical position making pedals work like in road car. Right after >I did it I've got nice improvement in lap times (I was playing GP2 then). >

Well, I found the pieces I was looking for at B&Q's over here and have now knocked up a pedal rig that is good and solid - though perhaps a little bit too much. I really had to press quite hard on the accelerator to get full throttle so I have had to calibrate less than all the way in order to avoid some real hard work getting the car up to speed. Mind you, I like your idea about making the unit vertical so that the pedals are like in a road car. What I am noticing is that my right foot is slipping out of the best position for good feel after a while and I'm having to reposition it during gearshifts. If I try to do this under braking I lose the car for lack of concentration. :( My brake and accelerator footpads are different and so, if I did make it vertical, then I would have to swap them over as well, which shouldn't be too much of a major hassle, and because of the foot slippage issue I think at some stage I'm either going to have to bolt something extra to the accelerator to stop my foot from gradually sliding up over the thing or do something like yourself and your idea seems much more classy. >My next plan is to make reclined seat, otherwise my back gets tired >after few hours of racing:) > Yep, seating is another area which needs looking into. At the mo' I can't use my real comfortable office chair because it is on castors and slides about with all this heavy leg pushing, so I've had to resort to a not so comfortable chair which really doesn't have the same under the butt softness or decent back support either. I only just bothered with it today and so haven't used it over any kind of prolonged period but would imagine that only a half hour or so would leave me needing to get out of the damned thing. I don't know, I'm sure this is only meant to be a hobby. :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

In article <[email hidden]>, Brett C. Cammack <[email hidden]> writes >Peter, > >I missed what your video card is. Is it a Voodoo2? If so, have you >tried these settings in your autoexec.bat file? > No, it's a V3 2000 and I have the latest drivers, but I believe it's my k6-2 450 that's the main bottleneck because of its lack of a decent floating point unit. Unless someone here can prove me wrong, hopefully. :) <snipped v2 settings>

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>I spent a solid week when unemployed digging out every possible >environment variable for the Voodoo2 and trying them in every >permutation to come up with these as optimal for GPL. I run a Celeron >400 and have pretty tolerable FPS with most graphics options turned >on, although some of the 3rd party tracks kick it's ass, FPS-wise >still. <g> > >Regards, >Brett C. Cammack > >brettDOTcammack@worldnetDOTattDOTnet >(remove the DOTs from my return address to reply privately)

-- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

In article <[email hidden]>, Jan Verschueren <jan.no- [email hidden]> writes >Peter Ives wrote... >> <snip> >> First thing I did was change the linearity. >> What am I? Stoopid or something? :) > >How should I know? -You might be just forgetfull. ;-)) No, I'm not forgetfull either, George. :) ><snip>

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>> What I was trying to get at was the fact that, because of >> my previous abilities and experience, the GPL physics engine >> shouldn't be able to throw anything at me that should catch >> me out. > >I'm very much aware of your prowess as a driver... kinda threw me you >weren't using a wheel all along, actually. > >> This should give me a head start over those that are coming to >> GPL with a wheel first time, and therefore should allow me a >> faster learning curve. Let's be honest, I doubt very much >> that a complete GPL novice could achieve a 1:28.6 at Monza after >> just 4 hours of play. > >True, but still compressing 3 years of experience into one month is asking a >lot of yourself, IMO. Depends on how much time one spends practising, >naturally. > >> Like I've stated before, my abilities at GPL with a joystick got >> to the point where I was always one step ahead of what the physics >> engine was going to throw at me. This knowledge should hopefully >> hold me in good stead despite the fact that I'm having to relearn >> how to drive. > >I'm sure it will. > >> PS: the setups I used with my joystick and that I'm now using >> with my wheel, were ones downloaded from Schubi's site and are, >> without doubt created by those who were using steering wheels at >> the time. > >You're a better man than I am Peter, I can't drive any of those. >

Actually Jan, this might take longer than perhaps my first attempts led me to believe. Although with my pedal setup feeling a lot better I've managed to cure the major wheel lockups under braking, especially into the like of Lesmo1 and Parabolica for instance, it's still taking all my powers of concentration to avoid the car dancing off to either the left or the right instead of just braking in a straight line. And even when I do concentrate it is still happening unexpectedly which is most frustrating. Possible reasons why this may be happening so far: a) Now that I've changed the steering linearity it means that the dead spot for keeping the wheel straight is a lot less than when I was using the joystick. b) I was a lot more proficient with straight line braking with a joystick to such a point that I could do it without being aware of what I was doing. c) I'm just not braking in the best possible manner for use with a wheel. I'm still trying to use the technique devised from my joystick days and it just doesn't suit. d) These hotshoe setups are difficult to drive and I need to try some more stable ones until I become more proficient. e) A combination of those above. Any other variables that I may not have thought of? -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

In article <[email hidden]>, Uwe Schuerkamp <[email hidden]> writes

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>On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:22:49 +0200, Jan Verschueren ><[email hidden]> wrote: >Peter Ives >wrote... > > >Thanks fon an interesting read, Peter. Now would anyone be >interested in a "driving method" setting in gplrank? >

Definitely!! And while I'm at it, if I email you my gplrank name and password, could you remove my old rank. It's time to start afresh. That old score of mine has been sitting there since July last year as it is. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in <[email hidden]>:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Alex ><[email hidden]> writes >>[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in >><[email hidden]>: >> > ><big snip> > >>There're few more ideas: I understood you have Ferrari FF wheel. On >>my pedals I attached the spring between the front corners of the unit >>and the pedal lever just below the pedal plate. If you choose right >>springs you may get very nice and customizable feel. >>With my old T2 unit I did another thing: attached it to the wooden frame >>in vertical position making pedals work like in road car. Right after >>I did it I've got nice improvement in lap times (I was playing GP2 then). >> > >Well, I found the pieces I was looking for at B&Q's over here and have >now knocked up a pedal rig that is good and solid - though perhaps a >little bit too much. I really had to press quite hard on the >accelerator to get full throttle so I have had to calibrate less than >all the way in order to avoid some real hard work getting the car up to >speed. Mind you, I like your idea about making the unit vertical so >that the pedals are like in a road car. What I am noticing is that my >right foot is slipping out of the best position for good feel after a >while and I'm having to reposition it during gearshifts. If I try to do >this under braking I lose the car for lack of concentration. :( >My brake and accelerator footpads are different and so, if I did make it >vertical, then I would have to swap them over as well, which shouldn't >be too much of a major hassle, and because of the foot slippage issue I >think at some stage I'm either going to have to bolt something extra to >the accelerator to stop my foot from gradually sliding up over the thing >or do something like yourself and your idea seems much more classy. > > <snip>

For this problem I can also suggest a solution :) I've glued a strip of material (kind of hybrid of rubber and sponge) across the Ferrari FF pedal unit, so I keep my heels on it. Not only it provides necessary traction to prevent slipping but also keeps heels more comfortable. For my vertical unit I use a pad of similar material to keep heels on. Now only if I could keep up with your lap times:) Alex (alexti)

[email hidden] (Uwe Schuerkamp) wrote in <[email hidden]>: >Thanks fon an interesting read, Peter. Now would anyone be >interested in a "driving method" setting in gplrank? It would allow to measure quality of the different brands of wheels (and other devices) against each other by comparing average ranks of GPL drivers Alex (alexti)

In article <[email hidden]>, Alex <[email hidden]> writes

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>[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in ><[email hidden]>: > >>In article <[email hidden]>, Alex >><[email hidden]> writes >>>[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in >>><[email hidden]>: >>> >> >><big snip> >> >>>There're few more ideas: I understood you have Ferrari FF wheel. On >>>my pedals I attached the spring between the front corners of the unit >>>and the pedal lever just below the pedal plate. If you choose right >>>springs you may get very nice and customizable feel. >>>With my old T2 unit I did another thing: attached it to the wooden frame >>>in vertical position making pedals work like in road car. Right after >>>I did it I've got nice improvement in lap times (I was playing GP2 then). >>> >> >>Well, I found the pieces I was looking for at B&Q's over here and have >>now knocked up a pedal rig that is good and solid - though perhaps a >>little bit too much. I really had to press quite hard on the >>accelerator to get full throttle so I have had to calibrate less than >>all the way in order to avoid some real hard work getting the car up to >>speed. Mind you, I like your idea about making the unit vertical so >>that the pedals are like in a road car. What I am noticing is that my >>right foot is slipping out of the best position for good feel after a >>while and I'm having to reposition it during gearshifts. If I try to do >>this under braking I lose the car for lack of concentration. :( >>My brake and accelerator footpads are different and so, if I did make it >>vertical, then I would have to swap them over as well, which shouldn't >>be too much of a major hassle, and because of the foot slippage issue I >>think at some stage I'm either going to have to bolt something extra to >>the accelerator to stop my foot from gradually sliding up over the thing >>or do something like yourself and your idea seems much more classy. >> >> <snip> > >For this problem I can also suggest a solution :) >I've glued a strip of material (kind of hybrid of rubber and sponge) >across the Ferrari FF pedal unit, so I keep my heels on it. Not only it >provides necessary traction to prevent slipping but also keeps heels more >comfortable. For my vertical unit I use a pad of similar material >to keep heels on. >

Nice one. The simplest solutions are always the best. :) I'm almost having as much fun mucking about with the rig as I am playing GPL. I said almost. ;-) >Now only if I could keep up with your lap times:) > Hehe, things are coming along nicely and I've learnt a couple of idiosyncracies of using a joystick compared to a wheel which should hold me in good stead. Firstly, I just did a 2.00.12 on only my 4th lap at Rouen with my wheel (just needed to mention that <g>) - I've wiped all my old joystick times and am currently in the process of just putting in 5 to 10 laps at each track so as to get a new GPLrank. Only got Spa, Silverstone and the daddy of them, yes the Ring, to go. Should get those done tomorrow and hope to post a new rank of somewhere in the region of less than +50. Not bad for the first week. :) OK, now about this joystick/wheel driving thing. I was going to start a new thread, but what the hell. I stated elsewhere in this thread that I was having some difficulty in keeping the car straight under heavy braking with the wheel, something that never happened with the joystick. I think I've discovered why this is so. If you imagine looking down from above onto the top of an analogue joystick which had a clockface super-imposed upon it. Moving the joystick towards 12 o'clock would allow acceleration in a straight line and moving it towards 6 o'clock would allow braking in a straight line. Now, in order to get maximum braking you need the joystick to be pointing as near to 6 o'clock as you can which, as just so happens, also means that you will also be braking in a straight line as well. If you only were to pull the joystick towards either 5 or 7 o'clock then you will not get maximum braking, maximum braking only occurs at the 6 o'clock position. And that is why it is easier to apply maximum braking in a straight line with a joystick. With a wheel you don't have that aide. Braking and steering are 2 completely separate components of a wheel/pedal combo and so you can be maximum braking and still have the wheel turned full lock to the right. Something that is impossible with a joystick. If the joystick was full lock to the right it would have to be at 3 o'clock which would mean no braking at all. Because of this, I believe it is more naturally difficult to maintain braking in a straight line with a steering wheel, without a lot more practice than would be required with a joystick. Secondly, I noticed a tendency to oversteer through corners which I have discovered comes from a fear of going too fast which has caused me to back off the throttle completely. This came to me when I was taken the tunnel at Monaco for the first time and was so afraid of going too fast I lifted completely and immediately the car dived towards the inside of the corner and up the curbing. It seems imperative to keep some kind of gas applied in order to avoid this. Once again something that joystick driving naturally would make you do. When joystick driving, once you've done your braking you want to get off the brake as you start turning for the corner. Obviously, once you are off the brake using a joystick then you must be on the gas 9 times out of 10 and hence less chance of oversteer through corners. It's still early days, but I'm sure these new discoveries are going to help me keep the car on the track with more consistency and should also result in improved track times as my experience grows. Jan, if you're reading this, perhaps a negative GPLrank within that first month after all. :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in <$[email hidden]>: > if I email you my gplrank name and >password, could you remove my old rank. It's time to start afresh. >That old score of mine has been sitting there since July last year as it >is. You can delete your own account using: Delete an existing account* and then create a new one, or as soon as you upload a new player.ini it overwrites the old one. Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -12.11 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

In article <909077CDDdscurlock@news>, Don Scurlock <[email hidden]> writes

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>[email hidden] (Peter Ives) wrote in ><$[email hidden]>: > >> if I email you my gplrank name and >>password, could you remove my old rank. It's time to start afresh. >>That old score of mine has been sitting there since July last year as >it >>is. > >You can delete your own account using: Delete an existing account* and >then create a new one, or as soon as you upload a new player.ini it >overwrites the old one. >

Cheers Don, uploaded new rank which puts me at position 1264 and a time of +46.14. Not bad for my first week with a wheel. :) Managed to scrape in a crash free second lap at the Ring which was enough, because my botty was getting numb after having just done Spa and Silverstone. Spa gave me the most headaches. Took me 8 laps before I managed a clean one. I think I crashed at every single corner at some stage. Anyway Ring start of a conservative 8:53 and plenty of room for improvement hopefully. This time next week who knows. :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.