Why a Fee is needed to ensure racing on WON or where-ever

Look guys, there is no doubt in my mind that someone has to figure out a way to make online racing more similar to TEN's heyday. The best scenario for WON at present is lackluster, crapy unsatisfying races. sure they can leave WON up on the free public side, but there needs to be a per month fee based side somewhere! I refer to TEN as a too pricey version of what I mean, but still the principle is usually tried and true... If it costs nothing, you get nothing, and nobody cares how much time they waste of others, whom it does mean something to. I mean every Tom, Dick, and Harry is out to play whatever is out there if its for free, wherever and however they can get it for free. That is the problem, FREE lets Crashmadness and his buddy Warpster, with no real interest in racing, to just get in there to mess with us all. But back when TEN cost up to 15 bucks a month to race, these twerps spent their FREE time pursuing Mechwarrior or porche unleashed instead. So Wouldn't it make sense that for maybe 25 bucks a year to somewhere would be CHEAP enough for us who care, but high enough for the loser_non_racing_play_in_the_park_cause_it_was_there kind of folks to stay away? I mean in Kansas they charge me to use the state park now... even though I pay taxes but the park is cleaner and nicer now it seems, if for nothing else they budget that money for upkeep and enforcement of rules!! My $$ worth

I am not sure what your complaining about. I have no trouble with using Seirra. If your connection is warpy, well then improve your connection and stay away from guys who are hosting on an average PC. If your races are filled with Kids or newbies, then again choose your race carefully, Join a league. I recently joined a couple leagues and they run practice races about every night. I don't ever need to enter another pick up race if I don't want to. But I do, And I enjoy them. They are great practice for dealing with lapping cars and avoiding wrecks. TEN had its problems also. Many league races were rained out due to TEN. But now, we use our own servers and rarely have that problem. My connections are the best they have been. And best of all I don't have to pay TEN to race. We used to Pay TEN every month and their plan was to pay additionally for the NROS when it came out. I hope it improves for you, Its not as bad as it seems, Just choose your server and your race wisely. And get a real good qual setup, :) -- Kevin Anderson [email hidden] "Stingre" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Look guys, there is no doubt in my mind that someone has to figure out a > way to make online racing more similar to TEN's heyday. The best scenario > for WON at present is lackluster, crapy unsatisfying races. sure they can > leave WON up on the free public side, but there needs to be a per month fee > based side somewhere! > > I refer to TEN as a too pricey version of what I mean, but still the > principle is usually tried and true... If it costs nothing, you get > nothing, and nobody cares how much time they waste of others, whom it does > mean something to. I mean every Tom, Dick, and Harry is out to play > whatever is out there if its for free, wherever and however they can get it > for free. That is the problem, FREE lets Crashmadness and his buddy > Warpster, with no real interest in racing, to just get in there to mess with > us all. But back when TEN cost up to 15 bucks a month to race, these twerps > spent their FREE time pursuing Mechwarrior or porche unleashed instead. > > So Wouldn't it make sense that for maybe 25 bucks a year to somewhere > would be CHEAP enough for us who care, but high enough for the > loser_non_racing_play_in_the_park_cause_it_was_there kind of folks to stay > away? I mean in Kansas they charge me to use the state park now... even > though I pay taxes but the park is cleaner and nicer now it seems, if for > nothing else they budget that money for upkeep and enforcement of rules!! > > My $$ worth > > > >

I've got several people looking for N4 leagues...are there ANY? dave henrie "Kevin Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XI9u6.265737$[email hidden]... > I am not sure what your complaining about. I have no trouble with using > Seirra. If your connection is warpy, well then improve your connection and > stay away from guys who are hosting on an average PC. If your races are > filled with Kids or newbies, then again choose your race carefully, Joina > league. I recently joined a couple leagues ((ssnniippss))

The problem isn't with the cost, the problem is you can't setup your own race. Looping random open races, even on Ten, would still suck. You need to be able to setup your own race and pick people who care about the driving as much as you do. There are lots of those types guys out there, but getting them together in a race is just about impossible with the current system. In every race on Won I see at least 10 or more quality guys in the race. Unfortunately it only takes 2 or more morons to ruin it for everyone else. Tom "Stingre" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:48:03 -0600, "Stingre" <[email hidden]> wrote: [snip] > So Wouldn't it make sense that for maybe 25 bucks a year to somewhere >would be CHEAP enough for us who care, but high enough for the >loser_non_racing_play_in_the_park_cause_it_was_there kind of folks to stay >away? I mean in Kansas they charge me to use the state park now... even >though I pay taxes but the park is cleaner and nicer now it seems, if for >nothing else they budget that money for upkeep and enforcement of rules!! I'm guessing you never played Ultima Online or Everquest? Both are pay to play, a heck of a lot more than 25 bucks a year, and both are Asshole Central. I don't want to just sound like I'm bagging on your idea, but I don't think its the answer. Doing private races with people you know works best. It takes a while to build up a group of guys, but you're in the best possible place to find them. Tim

Wow....four years later.....different sim drivers (but not all different).....same complaints! "Pick up racing" is never going to be "ideal"......and "league racing" will always be the best choice, regarding the "quality" of the competitors and the racing. Although I believe Papyrus has provided an excellent set of tools and procedures for improving online racing (passworded races, a driver rating system....and so forth), they have failed to provide one or the other....of the necessary "tools" needed for serious Internet-based sim racing to take place. They are: 1. The ability for "users" to charge for services of running leagues, establishing broadband racing league servers (this cost money, a lot of money...and a relatively inexpensive, cable or DSL line does not have enough upside bandwidth to hold a serious league race......30 or more drivers....requires around 600 kbps...upside bandwidth); and/or, 2. Provide a serious online "driver licensing" system.....similar to several used in real-world racing (SCCA for amateur racing...and NASCAR for professional racing...would be two prime examples). An "Internet" cookie......attached to your login name, signifying your racing license level (Novice, National, Pro, etc.)....and allowing only like licensed drivers to enter races ....or take part in league racing events.....wouldn't fix everything 100%....it certainly would go along way to fixing the "mess" you get now with a typical Sierra.com "pick up race." Wouldn't it? And, "yes"...there would be administrative problems with something like this.....but those are not insurmountable in scope or detail. While Papyrus' EULA has mostly valid provisions, the provision against "making money" using one of their products is probably not. I have shown this provision to several Internet attorneys here in the Bay Area - Silicon Valley.........and have had several discussions with more than one Havas "legal department" attorney....the two groups are at opposing odds on the matter (for obvious reasons, Havas thinks the provision is valid). That provision, as described by several attorneys who I have shown it to......say its tantamount to Hoyle saying, "You can buy our playing cards to play poker...but you can't play poker for real money with them." Or, Microsoft saying, "You can't use Word.....to write letters that make you money." Needless to say, the ongoing "saber rattling" from Papyrus, Sierra and Havas legal departments, scares off most people who attempt to provide "expensive" services for racing (leagues, broadband servers and Internet connection lines, racing schools, licensing programs, etc.)....just because the "cost of defense" is formidable. They count on that sort of thing...you know? But, if a class action suit were to be filed, on behalf of N4 "users".....I doubt seriously if Papyrus, Sierra or Havas legal...would ever allow it to go to trial.....because they know they'd lose. There's just no legal ground....no reasonable legal basis.....for that provision.....not unless Papyrus was running leagues.....racing schools......licensing programs...and charging (meaning making money) for those services. If they are not doing it....then they are not being harmed or damaged in anyway....by someone else doing it. However, that does not take into account what restrictions.....are imposed on Papyrus.....in order to obtain the various licenses they need to put a serious racing sim like NASCAR 4.....on the market. We are not privy to the details of those agreements. My bet is, Papyrus has been a "whimp" in those negotiations....and the scope of the their "license" is incredibly narrow (meaning, they are allowed to sell a racing game software...and that is it). One can only wonder how many real-world race track owners and groups, privately laugh at the whimps.....who continue to pay them for the "likeness" of their race tracks. When, in fact, the track owners would probably agree to pay them.......to have their tracks in a good racing sim because it advertises their products, and strengthens their fan base! Go figure! Where does this all lead us? Probably nowhere.....as long as we are talking about a Papyrus racing simulation (game). Come to think of it, Papyrus kind of reminds me of some of the old railroad companies of the early 20th Century. The ones that you've never heard of......because while they were "giants in their time"....they died out like the dinosaurs because they didn't realize what business they were in. They "thought" they were in the railroad business. Others, went on to become world-wide conglomerates......because they knew what business they were in....and it wasn't the railroad business! They knew they were in the "transportation business"......and they went on to become airlines, and shipping companies and parcel post companies and on and on and on! And, these same companies knew how to value their assets. They knew their greatest asset value....was not in railroad cars and locomotives.....it was in real estate! Papyrus, you are in the "leisure-time, entertainment business".....wake up! Oh well.....guess I'll go see if I can get into a decent pick up race online. See you guys later? Tom Pabst

Although all your points are valid and good Tom, imho the biggest problem is the drivers lack of understanding. Online racing isn't about "rubbin', nor will it ever be possible to pull of real-life "moves" online.... the lag and difficulties with crash detection prevent this. League-racing work, because here people drive to a given set of rules and standard. Another very important factor is knowing your competitors... knowing their stongholds and weaknesses. But perhaps the most important thing is the respect league racers will have for eachother. This is something you'll never see in a 15mins pick-up race. ed_ "Tom Pabst" wrote:... > Wow....four years later.....different sim drivers (but not all > different).....same complaints! <BIG SNIP!>

Ed - you hit it on the head right there. Mutual respect. ************************************ Dave Pawlikowski [email hidden] www.cushdrive.com www.luftwaffe-experten.com ICQ - 103134094 "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington Generals of The History Channel." Homer Simpson ************************************ " > > But perhaps the most important thing is the respect league racers willhave > for eachother. This is something you'll never see in a 15mins pick-uprace. > > ed_ >

I've only done 2 league races (in GPL) so far, plus a bunch of practise runs with the league guys, but I have to agree totally. When you realize that you're gonna be running with the same group week after week, you tend to think about your actions a lot more than when racing with a bunch of anonymous virtual opponents. If I win I want it to be because I won clean, and if I lose I know it's for the same reason. "Karaya One" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GOuu6.166$[email hidden]...

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> Ed - you hit it on the head right there. Mutual respect. > > ************************************ > Dave Pawlikowski > [email hidden] > www.cushdrive.com > www.luftwaffe-experten.com > ICQ - 103134094 > "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington > Generals of The History Channel." > Homer Simpson > ************************************ > " > > > But perhaps the most important thing is the respect league racers will > have > > for eachother. This is something you'll never see in a 15mins pick-up > race. > > > > ed_ > > > >

Running leagues in the current online environment is nuts. -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott ICQ# 4395450 "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FVau6.600007$[email hidden]... > I've got several people looking for N4 leagues...are there ANY? > dave henrie > "Kevin Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:XI9u6.265737$[email hidden]... > > I am not sure what your complaining about. I have no trouble with using > > Seirra. If your connection is warpy, well then improve your connection and > > stay away from guys who are hosting on an average PC. If your races are > > filled with Kids or newbies, then again choose your race carefully, Join > a > > league. I recently joined a couple leagues ((ssnniippss)) > >

Ed....I couldn't agree more with you on all points. TP

And if you DO take someone out, or get taken out, that it wasn't on purpose. Hey, things DO happen... I HATE taking someone out, even in offline racing. It's just not good racing ettiquette. And from personal experience - you do that in real life once or twice and you'll get "popped" later on by the other guy. I've seen THAT happen a few times :) On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:21:10 GMT, "Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I've only done 2 league races (in GPL) so far, plus a bunch of practise runs >with the league guys, but I have to agree totally. When you realize that >you're gonna be running with the same group week after week, you tend to >think about your actions a lot more than when racing with a bunch of >anonymous virtual opponents. > >If I win I want it to be because I won clean, and if I lose I know it's for >the same reason. > >"Karaya One" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:GOuu6.166$[email hidden]... >> Ed - you hit it on the head right there. Mutual respect. >> >> ************************************ >> Dave Pawlikowski >> [email hidden] >> www.cushdrive.com >> www.luftwaffe-experten.com >> ICQ - 103134094 >> "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington >> Generals of The History Channel." >> Homer Simpson >> ************************************ >> " > >> > But perhaps the most important thing is the respect league racers will >> have >> > for eachother. This is something you'll never see in a 15mins pick-up >> race. >> > >> > ed_ >> > >> >> >

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The problem on Sierra isn't the warpy connections. It's the warpy boneheaded people. -Larry "Kevin Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XI9u6.265737$[email hidden]... > I am not sure what your complaining about. I have no trouble with using > Seirra. If your connection is warpy, well then improve your connection and > stay away from guys who are hosting on an average PC. If your races are > filled with Kids or newbies, then again choose your race carefully, Joina > league. I recently joined a couple leagues and they run practice racesabout > every night. I don't ever need to enter another pick up race if I don'twant > to. But I do, And I enjoy them. They are great practice for dealing with > lapping cars and avoiding wrecks. TEN had its problems also. Many league > races were rained out due to TEN. But now, we use our own servers andrarely

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> have that problem. My connections are the best they have been. And best of > all I don't have to pay TEN to race. We used to Pay TEN every month and > their plan was to pay additionally for the NROS when it came out. > > I hope it improves for you, Its not as bad as it seems, Just choose your > server and your race wisely. And get a real good qual setup, :) > > -- > Kevin Anderson > [email hidden] > > "Stingre" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Look guys, there is no doubt in my mind that someone has to figure

out > a > > way to make online racing more similar to TEN's heyday. The bestscenario > > for WON at present is lackluster, crapy unsatisfying races. sure theycan

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> > leave WON up on the free public side, but there needs to be a per month > fee > > based side somewhere! > > > > I refer to TEN as a too pricey version of what I mean, but still the > > principle is usually tried and true... If it costs nothing, you get > > nothing, and nobody cares how much time they waste of others, whom it

does

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> > mean something to. I mean every Tom, Dick, and Harry is out to play > > whatever is out there if its for free, wherever and however they can get > it > > for free. That is the problem, FREE lets Crashmadness and his buddy > > Warpster, with no real interest in racing, to just get in there to mess > with > > us all. But back when TEN cost up to 15 bucks a month to race, these > twerps > > spent their FREE time pursuing Mechwarrior or porche unleashed instead. > > > > So Wouldn't it make sense that for maybe 25 bucks a year to

somewhere > > would be CHEAP enough for us who care, but high enough for the > > loser_non_racing_play_in_the_park_cause_it_was_there kind of folks tostay > > away? I mean in Kansas they charge me to use the state park now...even > > though I pay taxes but the park is cleaner and nicer now it seems, iffor > > nothing else they budget that money for upkeep and enforcement ofrules!!

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> > > > My $$ worth > > > > > > > > > >