N4 - Has it been PROVEN that camber settings affect times?

I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter inside temps, is there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference? I'm wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would be just as effective as the suggested setup. Haven't had time yet to try it out. Brian

I just raced a pocono and changing from -3.25 to -3.00 resulted in a bad push and took a second off my times. Back to -3.25 and i was fine again. "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l_%m6.2358$[email hidden]... > I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter inside temps,is > there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference? I'm > wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would bejust

Quoted text (8 lines)

> as effective as the suggested setup. > > Haven't had time yet to try it out. > > Brian > > >

Well I'll experiment and see what the different is. I'll be looking for that push. I haven't driven for a few days because of my disgust with the robotic AI. Brian "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 05:26:41 GMT, "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]>wrote: > > >I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter inside temps,is > >there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > >paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference?I'm > >wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would bejust > >as effective as the suggested setup. > > > > On a short-medium length track, you are going to need that negative camber > on the right-front. Set it to 0 and see. It will push like a very pushything.. :) > >

"Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l_%m6.2358$[email hidden]... > I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter inside temps,is > there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference? I'm > wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would bejust > as effective as the suggested setup. > > Haven't had time yet to try it out. A: Yes it has. B: The camber isn't the cause of the "left pull." Asymetrical weight balance, tire diameter, castor and toe are. C: Since what you are trying to do is circle to the left as fast as possible "left pull" is * desirable. * Make this experiement, take a perfectly cylindrical object, like an oatmeal box, and try to push it around a circular path. Now do the same thing with a conical object, like a styrofoam coffee cup. You will note a HUGE difference. The oatmeal box only has one single point on its width at which it is simply following the circle. ALL other points on the box are scrubbing against the surface. Your tires, a: don't like that, b: are using up some of their potential for generating cornering forces. You'll note that the slightest nudge of the coffee cup sends it cheerfully rolling in circles. Ask yourself THIS question. Why don't the set the camber of the banked tracks to "nuetral." KFG

Camber most certainly will affect the pull... I've experimented with that myself... -Larry "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BX8n6.189551$[email hidden]... > > "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:l_%m6.2358$[email hidden]... > > I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter insidetemps, > is > > there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > > paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference?I'm

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would be > just > > as effective as the suggested setup. > > > > Haven't had time yet to try it out. > > A: Yes it has. > > B: The camber isn't the cause of the "left pull." Asymetrical weight > balance, tire diameter, castor and toe are. > > C: Since what you are trying to do is circle to the left as fast as

possible > "left pull" is * desirable. * > > Make this experiement, take a perfectly cylindrical object, like anoatmeal > box, and try to push it around a circular path. > > Now do the same thing with a conical object, like a styrofoam coffee cup. > > You will note a HUGE difference. The oatmeal box only has one single point > on its width at which it is simply following the circle. ALL other pointson

Quoted text (12 lines)

> the box are scrubbing against the surface. Your tires, a: don't like that, > b: are using up some of their potential for generating cornering forces. > > You'll note that the slightest nudge of the coffee cup sends it cheerfully > rolling in circles. > > Ask yourself THIS question. Why don't the set the camber of the banked > tracks to "nuetral." > > KFG > >

Kevin, Yes, I was trying to determine if the sim itself properly emulated the real-world physics. > B: The camber isn't the cause of the "left pull." Asymetrical weight > balance, tire diameter, castor and toe are. If that's true, then why does neutral camber track straight and positive left and negative right track left? > C: Since what you are trying to do is circle to the left as fast aspossible > "left pull" is * desirable. * Absolutely > Make this experiement, take a perfectly cylindrical object, like anoatmeal > box, and try to push it around a circular path. > > Now do the same thing with a conical object, like a styrofoam coffee cup. > > You will note a HUGE difference. The oatmeal box only has one single point > on its width at which it is simply following the circle. ALL other pointson

Quoted text (8 lines)

> the box are scrubbing against the surface. Your tires, a: don't like that, > b: are using up some of their potential for generating cornering forces. > > You'll note that the slightest nudge of the coffee cup sends it cheerfully > rolling in circles. > > Ask yourself THIS question. Why don't the set the camber of the banked > tracks to "nuetral."

There is another factor involved there - centrifugal force.

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:38:09 GMT, "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote: >B: The camber isn't the cause of the "left pull." Asymetrical weight >balance, tire diameter, castor and toe are. >KFG Actually, camber can cause a pull. And if your camber split is 3, 4, 5 degrees or more, it WILL cause a pull. All other variables being equal, a vehicle will pull to the side with the most positive camber. Thus, if you have +3.0 deg. on the LF and -3.0 deg. on the RF, that 6.0 deg split will most certainly cause a pull to the left. Todd

I don't know where everybody has go the idea that asemetrical camber settings cause the left pull, imo it is caused by asemetrical weight, wedge, tyre pressure, ride hight and maybe caster settings but not the camber. Also asemetrical camber settings will certanly improve performance on ovals. Alex Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l_%m6.2358$[email hidden]... > I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter inside temps,is > there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference? I'm > wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would bejust

Quoted text (7 lines)

> as effective as the suggested setup. > > Haven't had time yet to try it out. > > Brian > >

If you start with the easy setup (which tracks straight) in the garage and introduce positive left and negative right camber, the car will pull to the left. Doesn't that prove that asymmetrical camber settings pull to the left? Brian "GBB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:97jvcm$a7g$[email hidden]... > I don't know where everybody has go the idea that asemetrical camber > settings cause the left pull, imo it is caused by asemetrical weight,wedge, > tyre pressure, ride hight and maybe caster settings but not the camber. > > Also asemetrical camber settings will certanly improve performance onovals. > > Alex > > Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:l_%m6.2358$[email hidden]... > > I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter insidetemps, > is > > there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > > paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference?I'm

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would be > just > > as effective as the suggested setup. > > > > Haven't had time yet to try it out. > > > > Brian > > > > > >

Brian, I have followed your journey into N4 and have responded to some of your posts regarding the "left pull" issue. I have an idea that may help you out: We agree that the pull is inherent to the setup. We agree that the setup is what helps us get around ovals faster. We agree in your situation (no FF I think) that the pull is apparently a bigger issue than those with certain FF setups. My suggestion is to go out at the track of your choice and practice with the <fast> setup and after warming the tires up try this: Imagine that straight forward steering is actually about 2-3 degress to the right of center on your wheel. My next door neighbor (friend, racing, fishing buddy) has a non FF wheel and was bad struggling with the isuue like yourself and I told him this tip and it helped him get through ok, seemed thinking that actually made it easier to wrap his mind around the concept. Now that we have tackled that, we have begun adjusting the settings in our cars, which brings up the next issue===> As you begin to play with springs (especially, but not exclusively) we have begun to notice that the effect is greatly noticable under acceleration, coasting, and braking. That is, with certain setups you better let off the wheel when you let off the gas because the right bias you're giving your steering wheel is no longer needed the instant you lift and you're turning right! We've noticed this more with non "stock" setups. I can't remember where I read the hint, but the docs mention certain settings affect the car differently under acceleration and under braking. Try here, look under Nascar 4 from the left menu and look at the setup guide (be advised ita about 70 pages long), it is a great insight into the parameters into setting up the cars in N4. http://www.sascar.com (No I'm not a member of this site, but was put onto it about a week ago, d'loaded the guide and have found it very, very insightful as to what to look for when tweaking setups) Best of luck to ya, hope to see you on the track sometime, edb Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l_%m6.2358$[email hidden]... > I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter inside temps,is > there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference? I'm > wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would bejust

Quoted text (7 lines)

> as effective as the suggested setup. > > Haven't had time yet to try it out. > > Brian > >

Good thoughts, there, edb. I've come to realize that part of the problem is the very strong tendency for my wheel to return to center. Those bungees are pretty tight, and that causes an unnaturally forceful centering of the wheel. I therefore tend to over-compensate based on the sensation of the wheel "popping" back to center. When I purposely try to ignore that sensation, I do better, but it is hard to maintain. In addition, you're right about easing off the accelerator going into turns - the car veers to the right. I thought I was the only one who was experiencing this. Your explanation makes sense. Bottom line - The only way I'm going to really enjoy this sim is by getting a better wheel and, oh, yes, by downloading Papy's patch which will turn those killer robots into civilized drivers. Thanks for your suggestions. Brian "edb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aGwn6.12687$[email hidden]... > Brian, I have followed your journey into N4 and have responded to some of > your posts regarding the "left pull" issue. I have an idea that may helpyou

Quoted text (8 lines)

> out: > > We agree that the pull is inherent to the setup. > We agree that the setup is what helps us get around ovals faster. > We agree in your situation (no FF I think) that the pull is apparently a > bigger issue than those with certain FF setups. > > My suggestion is to go out at the track of your choice and practice with

the > <fast> setup and after warming the tires up try this: > Imagine that straight forward steering is actually about 2-3 degress tothe > right of center on your wheel. > > My next door neighbor (friend, racing, fishing buddy) has a non FF wheeland > was bad struggling with the isuue like yourself and I told him this tipand > it helped him get through ok, seemed thinking that actually made it easier > to wrap his mind around the concept. Now that we have tackled that, wehave > begun adjusting the settings in our cars, which brings up the nextissue===> > > As you begin to play with springs (especially, but not exclusively) wehave > begun to notice that the effect is greatly noticable under acceleration, > coasting, and braking. That is, with certain setups you better let off the > wheel when you let off the gas because the right bias you're giving your > steering wheel is no longer needed the instant you lift and you're turning > right! We've noticed this more with non "stock" setups. I can't remember > where I read the hint, but the docs mention certain settings affect thecar > differently under acceleration and under braking. > > Try here, look under Nascar 4 from the left menu and look at the setupguide > (be advised ita about 70 pages long), it is a great insight into the > parameters into setting up the cars in N4. http://www.sascar.com (No I'mnot

Quoted text (12 lines)

> a member of this site, but was put onto it about a week ago, d'loaded the > guide and have found it very, very insightful as to what to look for when > tweaking setups) > > Best of luck to ya, hope to see you on the track sometime, > > edb > > > Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:l_%m6.2358$[email hidden]... > > I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter inside

temps, > is > > there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > > paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference?I'm

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would be > just > > as effective as the suggested setup. > > > > Haven't had time yet to try it out. > > > > Brian > > > > > >

Definately. Camber IMHO is the biggest single influence to car performance. I made some very surprising discoveries at the restrictor-plate tracks... -Phasor "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 05:26:41 GMT, "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]>wrote: > > >I just thought of something - When camber is set for hotter inside temps,is > >there an ACTUAL increase in performance in real terms? It sounds good on > >paper, but has anyone factually determined that there is a difference?I'm > >wondering if a neutral camber setup to eliminate the left pull would bejust > >as effective as the suggested setup. > > > > On a short-medium length track, you are going to need that negative camber > on the right-front. Set it to 0 and see. It will push like a very pushything.. :) > >