Someone convince me about Force Feedback...

After around two years playing GPL with a non-FF wheel (*still* not negative - sigh), I tried a FF wheel that I borrowed from a friend for the first time last night. The wheel is a Guillemot Ferrari wheel, with either serial or USB connectors - I used the serial. I was completely underwhelmed by the experience in GPL - and also in the brief tests that I did in GP3 and Nascar Heat. The main problem for me is that the wheel feels *very* notchy. For example, when the steering loads up round a fast corner, the wheel moves in definite clicks as I try and turn it. This destroys all immersion for me. Am I missing something? Will tweaking core.ini in GPL (and / or the settings for the wheel) give noticeable improvements? Thanks for any pointers that you can give.... -- Ian Ian Riches (GPL Rank +15.88) Bedford, UK

Ian Riches wrote:

Quoted text (25 lines)

> > After around two years playing GPL with a non-FF wheel (*still* not > negative - sigh), I tried a FF wheel that I borrowed from a friend for the > first time last night. > > The wheel is a Guillemot Ferrari wheel, with either serial or USB > connectors - I used the serial. > > I was completely underwhelmed by the experience in GPL - and also in the > brief tests that I did in GP3 and Nascar Heat. > > The main problem for me is that the wheel feels *very* notchy. For example, > when the steering loads up round a fast corner, the wheel moves in definite > clicks as I try and turn it. This destroys all immersion for me. > > Am I missing something? Will tweaking core.ini in GPL (and / or the > settings for the wheel) give noticeable improvements? > > Thanks for any pointers that you can give.... > > -- > Ian > > Ian Riches (GPL Rank +15.88) > Bedford, UK

There are two factors to consider. One is that the latency in the .ini file is set too high. This parameter is used to predict the forces in advance, so, especially on input changes, there are bound to be swift changes in the force, much like the other cars twitch in online races when predicition is used to put them where they should approximately be. Some notchiness can also occur with newer wheels, especially at higher forces. It depends on the wheel, and possibly newer goes away completely, but with use it does improve a lot, the most likely explanation being that the power of the magnets of the new wheels is stronger. -Gregor

"Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > There are two factors to consider. One is that the latency in the .ini > file is set too high. This parameter is used to predict the forces in > advance, so, especially on input changes, there are bound to be swift > changes in the force, much like the other cars twitch in online races > when predicition is used to put them where they should approximately be. Any suggested settings for this? > Some notchiness can also occur with newer wheels, especially at higher > forces. It depends on the wheel, and possibly newer goes away > completely, but with use it does improve a lot, the most likely > explanation being that the power of the magnets of the new wheels is > stronger. This could well be the problem. The wheel is pretty much brand new (the friend who I borrowed the wheel from bought the wheel before he bought his computer....) Thanks for the information. Ian Ian Riches Bedford, UK

Ian Riches wrote: > > Any suggested settings for this? > Start with 0 and then see how much latency you actually have. If none is percieved, leave it at that. Otherwise, if it's distracting, go up with it. I still have mine at 0 and am completely satisfied with it. -Gregor

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:52:00 -0000, "Ian Riches" <[email hidden]> wrote: [snip] I agree with what Greger was saying, a new FF wheel can take a good 10 hours of use to free up. You may also find that it is never going to be/feel as accurate as a good non-FF wheel. Whilst it might sound strange, you should, via core.ini and the wheels configuration try and get the forces as weak as possible whilst still being able to feel them. Particularly you want to remove all damping via the wheels configuration program and let GPL handle that IMO. I don't think using FF will make you quicker than Non-FF, I'd certainly expect you to be slower and not so comfortable at first, just as a FF user would feel uncomfortable going to a Non-FF. However, FF will provide you with more information on what is actually happening with car. If used well this may allow you to avoid doing things which make the car unstable, hence there is the likelyhood you will be able to run faster. Go back to your Non-FF wheel and although you no longer feel the forces you have learnt by the experience and will likely be just as quick with your Non-FF wheel. Maxx

Ian Riches <[email hidden]> wrote: >I was completely underwhelmed by the experience in GPL - and also in the >brief tests that I did in GP3 and Nascar Heat. > >The main problem for me is that the wheel feels *very* notchy. For example, >when the steering loads up round a fast corner, the wheel moves in definite >clicks as I try and turn it. This destroys all immersion for me. As I said in another post, I was shocked when I first tried my new Ferrari wheel. With the weird FF and gritty steering I thought I'll never get my lap times back to where they were. After a couple of months I'm 100% satisfied with the force effects and don't even pay attention to the "clicking". My GPLRank is down to -0.39 and it feels like something is missing every time I race with a non-FF wheel. It's quite handy when you're developing a new setup and get accurate feedback on the changes. I can't check my settings right now (although they can be found in the another Ferrari wheel thread). IIRC, the damping value is 70 and max torque 270. - topi -- http://www.iki.fi/tjp/

"Maxx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:52:00 -0000, "Ian Riches" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > [snip] > <snip>

Quoted text (14 lines)

> I don't think using FF will make you quicker than Non-FF, > I'd certainly expect you to be slower and not so comfortable at > first, just as a FF user would feel uncomfortable going to a Non-FF. > > However, FF will provide you with more information on what > is actually happening with car. If used well this may allow you > to avoid doing things which make the car unstable, hence > there is the likelyhood you will be able to run faster. > > Go back to your Non-FF wheel and although you no longer > feel the forces you have learnt by the experience and will > likely be just as quick with your Non-FF wheel. > > Maxx

I'm seeing this already. I had no idea just how much understeer there was in some of my Monza set-ups until I tried the force feedback wheel. The way the steering goes *so* light around Ascari and Curve Grande is very informative! Ian Ian Riches Bedford, UK

In article <93md5c$aqd3d$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... <> After around two years playing GPL with a non-FF wheel (*still* not <> negative - sigh), I tried a FF wheel that I borrowed from a friend for the <> first time last night. <> <> The wheel is a Guillemot Ferrari wheel, with either serial or USB <> connectors - I used the serial. <> <> I was completely underwhelmed by the experience in GPL - and also in the <> brief tests that I did in GP3 and Nascar Heat. <> <> The main problem for me is that the wheel feels *very* notchy. For example, <> when the steering loads up round a fast corner, the wheel moves in definite <> clicks as I try and turn it. This destroys all immersion for me. <> <> Am I missing something? Will tweaking core.ini in GPL (and / or the <> settings for the wheel) give noticeable improvements? <> <> Thanks for any pointers that you can give.... <> <> -- <> Ian <> <> Ian Riches (GPL Rank +15.88) <> Bedford, UK <> <> <> For me it was like being back to the newbee stadium again. I took me a couple of weeks just to learning to master the wheel as well as trying to keep the car on the track. And I still can't keep up with my non FF times of course mostly due to my lack of time for practice now days. But I don't want to be without it anymore since the driving experience gets more genuine. -- Johan N [email hidden]

Ian Riches wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > I'm seeing this already. I had no idea just how much understeer there was > in some of my Monza set-ups until I tried the force feedback wheel. The way > the steering goes *so* light around Ascari and Curve Grande is very > informative! > > Ian > > Ian Riches > Bedford, UK

It does do what it says it would, which is feedback, doesn't it? While there are some glitches associated wih the FF wheels, they are really minor compared to what they bring. It really helps to get a feel for just how much steering input is needed. Personally, I think this is THE enhancement for racing sims, if they support it well, of course. Most good sims do. Gregor

Ian Riches wrote in message <93n2bf$as2vt$[email hidden]>... >I'm seeing this already. I had no idea just how much understeer there was >in some of my Monza set-ups until I tried the force feedback wheel. Theway >the steering goes *so* light around Ascari and Curve Grande is very >informative! Yes, I agree. I'm not much faster but I am much more consistent through CG with the FF wheel. Also, FF is the only way I can handle the Nouvelle Chicane at Monaco at any decent speed. There's a few points at Monaco where the car gets really light... without FF I usually lost control there. I'm also a lot more confident around Zandy with the FF. For me it doesn't matter at some tracks (Rouen, Mexico and Kyalami) a little helpful at some (Watkins and Silverstone) and essential at others (Nurb, Zandy and Monaco). SB.

get a or try a- microsoft ff or act labs ff or logitech ff then decide Ian Riches wrote:

Quoted text (24 lines)

> After around two years playing GPL with a non-FF wheel (*still* not > negative - sigh), I tried a FF wheel that I borrowed from a friend for the > first time last night. > > The wheel is a Guillemot Ferrari wheel, with either serial or USB > connectors - I used the serial. > > I was completely underwhelmed by the experience in GPL - and also in the > brief tests that I did in GP3 and Nascar Heat. > > The main problem for me is that the wheel feels *very* notchy. For example, > when the steering loads up round a fast corner, the wheel moves in definite > clicks as I try and turn it. This destroys all immersion for me. > > Am I missing something? Will tweaking core.ini in GPL (and / or the > settings for the wheel) give noticeable improvements? > > Thanks for any pointers that you can give.... > > -- > Ian > > Ian Riches (GPL Rank +15.88) > Bedford, UK

It took me months to get the settings correct on my Ferrari wheel...and I already had a FFB wheel before that! For starters, The sliders in the wheel control panel must all be at 0 except for the Overall gain, which should be at 100. This is true for GPL, N3, N4 and NH. Every other game requires the spring setting to be at 100, not 0. Then, you must play extensively with the GPL core.ini settings to get a good feel. My wheel went from pathetic (as in "I am not keeping this wheel") to fantastic with the proper adjustments. If you have a very fast system, try my settings as a starting point. [ Hack ] steer_ratio = 0 ; Enable low speed ratio override [ Joy ] allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it force_feedback_damping = 230.000000 ; force feedback damping coefficient (40.000000) force_feedback_latency = 0.010000 ; force feedback latency (secs) (0.085000) max_steering_torque = 185.000000 ; steering torque in N*in giving max device force (225.00000) Good luck, Marc. "Ian Riches" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:93md5c$aqd3d$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> After around two years playing GPL with a non-FF wheel (*still* not > negative - sigh), I tried a FF wheel that I borrowed from a friend for the > first time last night. > > The wheel is a Guillemot Ferrari wheel, with either serial or USB > connectors - I used the serial. > > I was completely underwhelmed by the experience in GPL - and also in the > brief tests that I did in GP3 and Nascar Heat. > > The main problem for me is that the wheel feels *very* notchy. For

example, > when the steering loads up round a fast corner, the wheel moves indefinite

Quoted text (14 lines)

> clicks as I try and turn it. This destroys all immersion for me. > > Am I missing something? Will tweaking core.ini in GPL (and / or the > settings for the wheel) give noticeable improvements? > > Thanks for any pointers that you can give.... > > -- > Ian > > Ian Riches (GPL Rank +15.88) > Bedford, UK > >