Driving an unfamiliar car has allowed me to shatter ALOT of pb's in the last
few weeks. The only car I had ever seriously driven was the Ferrari. I had
developed a particular driving style with it and apparently it wasn't a good
one. A few weeks ago I decided to switch to the Lotus. I never seriously tried
to drive this car fast before.
First time out. Silverstone. OK, I hear this car is a real beast. Lets just go
for a nice drive and try to keep this thing on the black part. Lap times don't
matter. I don't know how this car is going to react in the corners so I need to
brake real early and real gentle, don't try to take the corners as fast as you
think you could. Drive real slow through the corners. I'm not ready to take
this car to the edge yet.
The fifth lap I ever drove in the Lotus and I ran a 1.28.97. Shattered my pb by
about 2.5 seconds. My jaw hit the floor. The lap "felt" so slow. When coming to
the line, I was guessing the lap to be about a 1.33.xx. I could not believe it.
Since then I have set new pb's at Kyalami, Mexico, Monza, Mosport, Rouen, and
the Glen. All because I am driving the car "like I bought it". Every new track
I went to with the Lotus I said. OK, let's not drive fast, just brake early and
keep the thing on the road. Within 10 laps at every track, I had shattered my
pb's. It was amazing to me.
Larry Haines
GPLR +30.35
Ok, I've been the victim of some good-natured ribbing, in which the above
phrase was used. After seeing it again recently, I really must ask - WTF does
that mean? If it means that I'm trying not to crash, then yes, I'm guilty.
But I've also had people say that I need to drive smoother. In my mind, those
two descriptions are mutually exclusive. Meaning, 'Drive like you stole it'
and 'smooth' don't go in the same sentence. I've put in a BUNCH of laps
recently, but don't see any improvement. I also went back to the Ring, trying
to stay with the AI in a race. I can't even get past the esses without
wrecking.
It amazes me how people have gone from +400 to -ve in the time it's taken ME to
get from +137 to +49. How *did* you do it???
Eldred - off to do 100 laps at Watkins...
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +49.12
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:
> WTF does that mean?
If you stole it you don't give a sh*t how you mess the car up. If you
bought it (especially at the price a real '67 F1 car goes for) you'd be
careful how you drive it... unless you're one of the those rich nutters
who let people thrash the bits off them at Goodwood.
As for your GPLR... seems you're improving fairly well to me! I think the
major improvements have come from people who (i) hadn't driven a lot of
tracks seriously when they started ie loads of room for easy improvement
(ii) had a hardware upgrade and achieved that all important constant 36fps
(iii) had a brain transplant from a 15 year old with ultra-fast synapses.
Andrew "man who put the nap in synapse" McP
Eldred,
I can't comment on what was meant by "Drive it like you own it" from
the replasy you put up for "examination" recently, I wouldn't accuse
you of that.
Thats not to say that you were "thrashing" the car either, looking
back the single biggest thing I could "accuse" you of, was being
afraid to carry speed into corners. I'm certain the reason for this
was to avoid going off (fairly obviously).
I think you havent yet mastered the balanced throttle entry into
corners. If you go into a corner at 90mph with no gas, you'll
spin out, the back wheels have very little adhesion as you've just
transferred most of the weight to the front of the car by hard
braking.
If you went in at 90mph with just enough gas +1% you would
sail through the corner with no drama. Just think of it as you
have a huge weight (the rear) wanting to go in a straight line
and a couple of skinny tires trying to make it go in a different
direction. By applying throttle you are "driving" the car through
the corner and that little bit of extra gas will ensure that weight
is again "balanced" or moved rearward.
The 1% can be anything from 1% to 99% dependent on the
corner, but at anything over about 60-70mph you MUST have
it to go through the corner quickly.
If you recal I commented that you slowed the car to such an
extent that you then needed to accellerate in the corner itself
where you should have been carrying that speed through from
corner entry. Not only that, but you tended to be accelerating
hard on the exit, tire sqealing and scrubbing off speed. The
major tire squealing should come during the first section of
the corner as you want to scrub off speed a little here (as
an extension to braking), anything more than a moderate
tire squeal on exit is totally unneccasary and probably losing
you time.
I just got the impression (and I could be wrong) that your
maximum focus was on braking and corner entry, once you''d
gotten to the apex, it was just foot down until the next corner.
Your maximum focus should be on corner exit, being aware of
exactly when you can apply the gas, and applying just enough
to get a smooth line out to the very edge of the available
exit road.
If you are really trying to do those things I discuss in GPLEGS
and they are just not working for you, please send me some
more replays and I will comment specifically on each corner.
It would also be useful to include some supporting text, to tell
me what you are doing i.e. where you are looking at to brake,
whether you are trail-braking or not (very hard to spot).
You absolutely must give it a good few days, maybe 6-8 hours
minimum, especially as your driving habits have become more
ingrained than other that have improved spectacularly with
GPLEGS.
The ring is not the place to practice technique IMO, it benefits
hugely from improved technique and running the ring does help
elsewhere, but theres just too much going on to practice
technique.
Also, practicing technique is not hotlapping, think of it as being
judged like a figure-skaters performance, on style, content etc.
Make sure you are not influenced by the racing groove, other
GPLEGS "students" have said that realising the racing groove
is NOT the racing LINE was a big reason for their improvement.
Another thing to remember is to go very fast around a circuit
doesn't mean going very fast around every corner (or rather
every section of every corner). If you have a corner that is
greater than 90deg, lets say an Oval for example, once you
get to the corner, your sole top priority is to get going in the
opposite direction as quickly as possible, therefore accelerating
into the corner, causing tire sqeal is simply a waste of time.
Ovals are a good training ground for understanding this and
I note that you do run the ovals and have some laps posted
at Schubi's. It might be an idea to take one of the fastlap
setups and try and get within 103/104%, If you can't then
you are probably doing something fundamentally wrong and
this is likely to be affecting your road course times also.
I think I mentioned "drive it like you stole it" as a tip for the
ring. Theres a great tendency to "play it safe" at the ring and
keep well away from the verges, brake early "just in case"
etc. but to get near the Papy benchmark I feel you have to
man-handle the car around somewhat, smooth with brake
and gas but using all the tarmac (and a little grass), and when
it's important to carry speed (i.e. approaching an uphill section)
you have to be prepared to carry that extra speed.
It is a racing circuit, but lulls one into driving it like a country.
You also mention somewhere else, setups. I'm not sure of
the relative merits of Alisons setups v. other setups. I used
them from time to time and found them controlable and drivable
and that's the key to a setup. They are certainly capable of
getting you to a 0.0 rank IMO. The setups I am using now at
-16 are still fairly standard, I have yet to delve into Lo/Hi/1
diff settings (i.e. GH2 type setups).
As you like the Ferrari, try Russ Hodgsons setups :
http://lightsoutracing.simplenet.com/trackguides/gpl/
I and other GPLEGS guys have found these very drivable and
fast.
As a final comment, I note you also play many other sims, thats
fine, but in order to improve your GPL technique, I would say
try and have maybe a week where you almost solely play
GPL, concentrate on practicing technique, no hottlapping,
no AI races, choose your favourite/fastest chassis and setup
(or at least one that you feel at ease with), take 90-120 minutes
at a particular circuit (I wouldn't choose Ring/Spa or Monaco)
If you are undecided about the best line through a corner or
best exit gear etc. etc. try and string 5 laps together, using aa
slight variation. Save the replay, load all 5 into RA and run them
all together, note which are the fastest IN EACH SECTION. If
you cant see this visually on play, load what look like the best 2
into the Graph function and check Time Difference.
If you've donoe one which you consider to have good line,
load it into RA along with a hotlap and check just the LINE
particularly the EXIT.
You may need to get this analytical for a while, just to highlight
to yourself what is right and wrong. Believe me, setting new PBs
is going to be a damn site easier for you now than when you get
to 0.0, and if you put in the effort and realise that you need to
make a quite drastic technique change, you will get to 0.0 or
at least into single figures.
Jens H. Kruuse is not the only major improver using GPLEGS,
he is perhaps the most spectacular as he went from +422 to +36
in 6 weeks, but there are many others that have knocked
60-100 or more seconds off their PBs.
Here are some that were around your handicap when they
started GPLEGS.
I'll mention Phil Lee, a regular contributor here in r.a.s. who
was on +49.13 at the beginning of Oct when he took GPLEGS,
he is now +7.52
Norbert Durer, who's only had the package 2 weeks has gone
from +47.08 to +24.43
Simon Brown, just over a month ago on +41.88 now +19.40
It absolutely can be done, and you have the tools and the
capability to do it, I'll help you in whatever further way I can (not
sure all the new entrants to the St Eldred Cup would thank me
however).
You need to put in constructive time, you've had 2 years to
learn the circuits, so no point keep driving round and round
in the same way day after day!
Maxx
On 12 Nov 2000 05:41:50 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:
Quoted text (14 lines)
>Ok, I've been the victim of some good-natured ribbing, in which the above >phrase was used. After seeing it again recently, I really must ask - WTF does >that mean? If it means that I'm trying not to crash, then yes, I'm guilty. >But I've also had people say that I need to drive smoother. In my mind, those >two descriptions are mutually exclusive. Meaning, 'Drive like you stole it' >and 'smooth' don't go in the same sentence. I've put in a BUNCH of laps >recently, but don't see any improvement. I also went back to the Ring, trying >to stay with the AI in a race. I can't even get past the esses without >wrecking. > >It amazes me how people have gone from +400 to -ve in the time it's taken ME to >get from +137 to +49. How *did* you do it??? > >Eldred - off to do 100 laps at Watkins...
"Maxx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Having been mentoned in Maxx's post I thought I'd let you know how I went
about improving my times. The main suggestion of Maxx's which I follow is
to drive smoothly and build up the pace steadily. I have found that by
filling a car up with 12 laps of fuel and taking the time to warm up the
tyres and get up to pace really pays dividends.
For example, Mosport was one of my slowest tracks relative to the handicap
time. Last Thursday I filled up the Lotus with 12 laps of fuel and went for
a drive. My first 4 laps were pretty slow but then the speed built up. For
the next 6 laps I was running at about 1 second off my PB. Then on the 12th
lap everything clicked and I knocked 1.25 seconds off my PB.
This week I also did exactly the same thing at Monaco, improving by 0.65
seconds and best of all I improved by a whopping 8 seconds at the Ring. All
this has come through driving smoothly and putting in the laps.
You also don't have to drive for hours at a time IMO. I would never dream
of doing 100 laps at the Glen. I find half an hour with 12 lap sessions at
a couple of tracks to be the best way to improve. With this comes
consistency. Last night I ran an 8:38 then 8:37 then 8:36 at the Ring on
consecutive laps. Still off the pace of my PB of 8:30.11 but some way
towards running the track at a good consistent pace. I have even found
myself running 12 lap races online with 2 race laps at exactly the same
time, both slightly off my PB but still consistent.
Another suggestion of Maxx's which I have taken on board is to switch cars.
At the moment I am switching between the Lotus and Ferrari with the majority
of my PBs coming in the Ferrari. The variation of car and track helps me to
keep fresh.
Finally and what I think has been the biggest reason for my improvement is
that I learned all the tracks intimately in F2 before starting my rapid rise
up the rankings. For 6 months before October I hardly set foot in an F1
car, preferring to race with the VROC-F2 club most evenings and in the F2
Festival League on Sundays. The F2 cars are harder to drive IMO, with a lot
less grip than the F1 cars and less power to control the corners as well.
Being able to do decent lap times in these cars has really helped me
considerably.
Cheers
Phil
--
F1 GPL Handicap: +7.52 secs
F2 GPL Handicap: +118.61 secs
Currently running in the F2 Festival League at
http://www.geocities.com/f2_festival
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > Here are some that were around your handicap when they > started GPLEGS. > > I'll mention Phil Lee, a regular contributor here in r.a.s. who > was on +49.13 at the beginning of Oct when he took GPLEGS, > he is now +7.52 >Eldred,
What Maxx said.
Don't get rattled by the maniacs who *do* drive it like they stole it. Some
hotlappers (mmm, nameless) have managed to take the most realistic racing
sim ever and turn it into an arcade game by driving like their assholes are
on fire. If Dave Kaemmer were dead, he'd be spinning in his grave. I'm
sure he never intended for GPL to be driven like that. He, like me, is a
realism purist, and must be horrified that you can fling F1 cars around some
of the world's most dangerous circuits as if they were dodge'em cars at the
county fair. Jim Clark never drove like that. Nobody else who ever drove a
real F1 drove like that, either, not even Jack Brabham, who spent a fair
amount of time going sideways by the silo. True, unless you drive
unrealistically, you're never going to beat half the guys online, but
between the arcade freaks and the merely incompetent (and, I suppose, the
malicious, although I have encountered few malcontents driving circuits the
wrong way 'round), surely there is a place in heaven for those who
appreciate driving the game the way God (and DaveK) intended.
--Steve Smith
EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Ok, I've been the victim of some good-natured ribbing, in which the above
> phrase was used. After seeing it again recently, I really must ask - WTFdoes
> that mean? If it means that I'm trying not to crash, then yes, I'mguilty.
> But I've also had people say that I need to drive smoother. In my mind,those
> two descriptions are mutually exclusive. Meaning, 'Drive like you stoleit'
> and 'smooth' don't go in the same sentence. I've put in a BUNCH of laps
> recently, but don't see any improvement. I also went back to the Ring,trying
> to stay with the AI in a race. I can't even get past the esses without
> wrecking.
>
> It amazes me how people have gone from +400 to -ve in the time it's takenME to
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> get from +137 to +49. How *did* you do it??? > > Eldred - off to do 100 laps at Watkins... > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +49.12 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beatsDrive it like you stole at least to me means you do not put reserve into
your driving, you drive at the limit. For Autocrossing which I do a lot of
Drive it like you stole means you do not worry about getting home in the
car later that day. Typically most Autocrossers drive to the event and
back, so coining that phrase works there. In GPL is would be like going out
and doing your qual laps and WFO shifting since you want the most out of
the engine. Driving it like you stole it.
Dave
I really must ask - WTF does that mean?
Wheres the fire?
Who'se the Ferrari?
Watch the fender!!!!
etc......
HainesLC <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Driving an unfamiliar car has allowed me to shatter ALOT of pb's in the last
> few weeks. The only car I had ever seriously driven was the Ferrari. I had
<snip>
> Since then I have set new pb's at Kyalami, Mexico, Monza, Mosport, Rouen, and
> the Glen. All because I am driving the car "like I bought it". Every new track
> I went to with the Lotus I said. OK, let's not drive fast, just brake early and
> keep the thing on the road. Within 10 laps at every track, I had shattered my
> pb's. It was amazing to me.
I know this effect too. I mostly drive Ferraris, but every once in a while
I reach a 'platform' where I can't get any more out of it. Then I keep
a break and swap to a Lotus or an Eagle for the next sessions and shave
a big chunk off my laptimes. Then I go back to Ferrari again. I'm convinced
that I'm improving faster this way than if I took the usual recommended way of
sticking rigorously to one car.
+Cinquo
EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Ok, I've been the victim of some good-natured ribbing, in which the above
> phrase was used. After seeing it again recently, I really must ask - WTFdoes
> that mean? If it means that I'm trying not to crash, then yes, I'mguilty.
> But I've also had people say that I need to drive smoother. In my mind,those
> two descriptions are mutually exclusive. Meaning, 'Drive like you stoleit'
> and 'smooth' don't go in the same sentence. I've put in a BUNCH of laps
> recently, but don't see any improvement. I also went back to the Ring,trying
> to stay with the AI in a race. I can't even get past the esses without
> wrecking.
I disagree with your detractors. I used to have the "floor it and hang on"
mentaliy, which *might* get you fast times if you're lucky.
My times have dropped substantially lately. I just keep thinking an old
quote, I forgot who said it first - "It's better to go in slow and come out
fast, than to go in fast and come out dead." Of course simulators haven't
gone to THAT level of realism yet, but the point is the same - it's better
to brake early and set up a good line and stay on-track than it is to really
push it and go offcourse at least once per lap. Speed comes through
smoothness, and smoothness comes through remaining calm and patient.
SEM wrote:
LOL. You're joking, right? I mean, what the f##k!!
--
Chuck Kandler
A man is no less a Slave just because he is
allowed to choose a new Master every four years.
Registered Linux User #180746
http://counter.li.org
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > I really must ask - WTF does that mean? > > Wheres the fire? > Who'se the Ferrari? > Watch the fender!!!! > etc......EldredP wrote:
>
> Ok, I've been the victim of some good-natured ribbing, in which the above
> phrase was used. After seeing it again recently, I really must ask - WTF does
> that mean?
Drive it like you stole it means to me, balls to the wall. And
remembering there's always a reset button. ;-) Obviously, driving it
like you bought it is at the opposite pole.
--
Chuck Kandler
A man is no less a Slave just because he is
allowed to choose a new Master every four years.
Registered Linux User #180746
http://counter.li.org
Well in real racing if you cannot set a match to it and walk away fine
finacially then you have no business racing. Kinda similar to drive it
like you stole it.
Dave
Quoted text (14 lines)
> Drive it like you stole it means to me, balls to the wall. And > remembering there's always a reset button. ;-) Obviously, driving it > like you bought it is at the opposite pole. > > -- > > Chuck Kandler > > A man is no less a Slave just because he is > allowed to choose a new Master every four years. > > Registered Linux User #180746 > http://counter.li.org >In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]>
writes:
Well, that's what I thought. But other people telling me I needed to be
smoother had me puzzled. But, I've worn out my Shift-R. Contrary to what
people might believe, most of the time, I *am* on the edge. It's just farther
away from THEIR edge. At the Ring, I'm never sure if I'm going to come out of
about 80% of the corners. And I'm STILL stuck at 8:52. I don't see how I'm
going to gain any more time - I'm already at my limit. My prediction of 8:30
about 2-3 months ago was optimistic... :(
Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +49.12
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (11 lines)
>EldredP wrote: >> >> Ok, I've been the victim of some good-natured ribbing, in which the above >> phrase was used. After seeing it again recently, I really must ask - WTF >does >> that mean? > > >Drive it like you stole it means to me, balls to the wall. And >remembering there's always a reset button. ;-) Obviously, driving it >like you bought it is at the opposite pole.
EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Well, that's what I thought. But other people telling me I needed to be
> smoother had me puzzled. But, I've worn out my Shift-R. Contrary to what
> people might believe, most of the time, I *am* on the edge. It's justfarther
> away from THEIR edge. At the Ring, I'm never sure if I'm going to comeout of
> about 80% of the corners. And I'm STILL stuck at 8:52. I don't see howI'm
> going to gain any more time - I'm already at my limit. My prediction of8:30
> about 2-3 months ago was optimistic... :(
>
Relax. Don't worry about making time, you're doing this to have fun,
remember? Just have fun. If you make a mistake, it's No Big Deal.
Just having fun. There'll be other laps. Relax, have fun, try new things
and see what works and what doesn't.
Pretty soon you'll be AMAZED at how fast you're going when you're
not paying attention to how fast you're going.
Eldred, all,
That said, I must confesss I am stiff (or is that limp?) with admiration for
drivers like Woeger and Huttu, who play GPL like a Stradavarius. They have
preternatural car control and an uncanny ability to use every millimeter of
road, every iota of traction, every scintilla of power. I have learned a
great deal about myself from watching their replays; specifically, how low
I'd set my own horizons of what is possible and what seemed beyond my grasp.
If not for them, I'd still be puttering around Spa at 3:32 (Gurney's best
lap in the race) thinking I was pretty hot stuff.
--Steve
Stephen Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:8RyP5.189944$[email hidden]...
> Eldred,
>
> What Maxx said.
>
> Don't get rattled by the maniacs who *do* drive it like they stole it.Some
> hotlappers (mmm, nameless) have managed to take the most realistic racing
> sim ever and turn it into an arcade game by driving like their assholesare
> on fire. If Dave Kaemmer were dead, he'd be spinning in his grave. I'm
> sure he never intended for GPL to be driven like that. He, like me, is a
> realism purist, and must be horrified that you can fling F1 cars aroundsome
> of the world's most dangerous circuits as if they were dodge'em cars atthe
> county fair. Jim Clark never drove like that. Nobody else who ever drovea
> real F1 drove like that, either, not even Jack Brabham, who spent a fair
> amount of time going sideways by the silo. True, unless you drive
> unrealistically, you're never going to beat half the guys online, but
> between the arcade freaks and the merely incompetent (and, I suppose, the
> malicious, although I have encountered few malcontents driving circuitsthe
above
> > phrase was used. After seeing it again recently, I really must ask -WTF
taken
