Re: You want realism?

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Freeburn wrote:

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> Seeing how you like your sim racing so much, and you seem to be after > the ultimate simracing experience, I can offer you, and others like you, > the ultimate in race realism. It's a house call service, providing the > very latest in sim technology called a HPIEF (a high-power impact > enhancement facilitator). > > It's quite simple really, all we do is stand next to you while you race, > and every time you crash we use the HPIEF (otherwise know as a > sledgehammer) on both your knees. Ultimate realism for your simracing > desires. > > Interested?

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there is absolutely, positively nothing "sim" about a game that has a save game feature. What real life race lets you save the race and run it later? I challenge you to find one dang motorsports series that allow the drivers to save their race and run it on Monday for instance. You can say it is a feature you would like but dont dare say it hurts the sim portion of the game. That just doesnt make sense ... "Chas39cop" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ed, > The "passion" is there not because we enjoy flaming and/or bashing you > guys..but because many of us were drooling playing the demo and countingthe > days until the full version came out only to be devastated by thisrevelation > about the save game feature. This was going to be the flat out mostincredible > nascar sim to date until we realized this omission.I feel like I finallyhad > met the girl of my dreams, fell madly in love with her, asked her to marryme > and then she stood me up at the church.You took 3 steps forward with thissim > and one LEAP backwards. I assumed we won this "battle" 4 years ago withNascar2 > and that this feature is now virtually a standard in every sports game onthe > market. Papyrus did NOT put dozens of man hours into releasing a patch tofix > this same thing for N2 in 1996 because me and one other guy halfway acrossthe > country griped about it. They did it because THOUSANDS of gamers expressed > SEVERE displeasure with it. Neither am naive enough to believe they did it > because they are nice guys who decided to "support" us. They did itbecause > they are savvy business men who sensed the long term game would be dead inthe > water without it. And they KNEW that the track expansion packs, Buschexpansion > packs,Craftsman truck expansion packs, as well as "Gold" editions were inthe > future to further milk the market. I suggest that you print this out, takeit > to your development team, and do what you got to do to get the savefeature and > in-race reply into the game. If not, Nascar 4 looms large on the horizon,and > Heat is dead without them . You can pay a little now, or ALOT later. I > sincerely believe this will actually hurt this games sales,(notintially,but > when N4 hits the shelves with its save feature in tact,Heats sales willRAPIDLY > decline) and thats what you guys are in business for. Its a shame, anawesome > game for short sprint races, but not for full length racing for the truesim > fan without this feature. > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) writes:

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>You better believe there is alot more..like the fact that you CANNOT pause >the >game during the race and view a replay of the nifty pass you just made or the >huge wreck at one of the superspeedways you just skillfully avoided. You know >why? Because the minute you pause and exit the race to view the replay..the >game is OVER! You just DNF'ed..you CANNOT reenter the game now because the >game >cannot SAVE the race in progress...lots of fun huh? >

You can't view a replay without exiting the race? That sucks - replay is a great way to practice your driving lines, etc. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes:

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>On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 05:39:46 GMT, Red 86 Vet ><[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >>Hogwash... Savegame has no impact as to whether this is a good simulation >or not. Frankly, I could >>not care less whether it has a savegame feature in it or not. I have all >the Papy sims, and never >>use the savegame feature on any of them. > >How many times have you run at 100% lenght? >-- >Nos

Can I answer this, too? I have all the Papy games to, except CTS. I've run a full-season, 100% distance race at least twice in both Nascar and Indycar racing. I've run about 20 full-length races in GPL, and 2 12-hour races in SCGT(Gotta love the AI driver). I even ran about 10-15 full races in Indy500...<g> I've used save game features in racing games less than 5 times TOTAL. If I have something else to do, I hit pause. The fact that NH doesn't have a save game feature is definitely NOT a reason for me not to buy it. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Yea..guess there are ALOT of arcade racers out there! LOL

Thats WHY its an arcade game! LOL

Revalation? I read this a couple of weeks ago... um... -- Tim, [email hidden]|[email hidden] http://legends.sports-gaming.com/forums.shtml FREE forums for your league... http://legends.sports-gaming.com Sim racing website loosely based on gpl... Chas39cop <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ed, > The "passion" is there not because we enjoy flaming and/or bashing you > guys..but because many of us were drooling playing the demo and counting the > days until the full version came out only to be devastated by this revelation > about the save game feature. This was going to be the flat out most incredible > nascar sim to date until we realized this omission.I feel like I finally had > met the girl of my dreams, fell madly in love with her, asked her to marry me > and then she stood me up at the church.You took 3 steps forward with this sim > and one LEAP backwards. I assumed we won this "battle" 4 years ago with Nascar2 > and that this feature is now virtually a standard in every sports game on the > market. Papyrus did NOT put dozens of man hours into releasing a patch to fix > this same thing for N2 in 1996 because me and one other guy halfway across the > country griped about it. They did it because THOUSANDS of gamers expressed > SEVERE displeasure with it. Neither am naive enough to believe they did it > because they are nice guys who decided to "support" us. They did it because > they are savvy business men who sensed the long term game would be dead in the > water without it. And they KNEW that the track expansion packs, Busch expansion > packs,Craftsman truck expansion packs, as well as "Gold" editions were in the > future to further milk the market. I suggest that you print this out, take it > to your development team, and do what you got to do to get the save feature and > in-race reply into the game. If not, Nascar 4 looms large on the horizon, and > Heat is dead without them . You can pay a little now, or ALOT later. I > sincerely believe this will actually hurt this games sales,(not intially,but > when N4 hits the shelves with its save feature in tact,Heats sales will RAPIDLY > decline) and thats what you guys are in business for. Its a shame, an awesome > game for short sprint races, but not for full length racing for the true sim > fan without this feature. > >

You better believe there is alot more..like the fact that you CANNOT pause the game during the race and view a replay of the nifty pass you just made or the huge wreck at one of the superspeedways you just skillfully avoided. You know why? Because the minute you pause and exit the race to view the replay..the game is OVER! You just DNF'ed..you CANNOT reenter the game now because the game cannot SAVE the race in progress...lots of fun huh?

I think I'll somehow find it in myself to buy the game anyway... NH and GPL... Is there any reason to venture outside now? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

There is a lot more to this game than full length races. From what I see it could take a racer months just to do the Beat The Heat challenges. Not to mention Racing the Pro. If you get bored with those challenges then do some multiplayer. IMHO I am looking forward to the sim and the degree of realism it brings. I can find no reason to fault, until I try the full version. I doubt I will be disappointed at all. David Thirion "Chas39cop" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ed, > The "passion" is there not because we enjoy flaming and/or bashing you > guys..but because many of us were drooling playing the demo and countingthe > days until the full version came out only to be devastated by thisrevelation > about the save game feature. This was going to be the flat out mostincredible > nascar sim to date until we realized this omission.I feel like I finallyhad > met the girl of my dreams, fell madly in love with her, asked her to marryme > and then she stood me up at the church.You took 3 steps forward with thissim > and one LEAP backwards. I assumed we won this "battle" 4 years ago withNascar2 > and that this feature is now virtually a standard in every sports game onthe > market. Papyrus did NOT put dozens of man hours into releasing a patch tofix > this same thing for N2 in 1996 because me and one other guy halfway acrossthe > country griped about it. They did it because THOUSANDS of gamers expressed > SEVERE displeasure with it. Neither am naive enough to believe they did it > because they are nice guys who decided to "support" us. They did itbecause > they are savvy business men who sensed the long term game would be dead inthe > water without it. And they KNEW that the track expansion packs, Buschexpansion > packs,Craftsman truck expansion packs, as well as "Gold" editions were inthe > future to further milk the market. I suggest that you print this out, takeit > to your development team, and do what you got to do to get the savefeature and > in-race reply into the game. If not, Nascar 4 looms large on the horizon,and > Heat is dead without them . You can pay a little now, or ALOT later. I > sincerely believe this will actually hurt this games sales,(notintially,but > when N4 hits the shelves with its save feature in tact,Heats sales willRAPIDLY > decline) and thats what you guys are in business for. Its a shame, anawesome > game for short sprint races, but not for full length racing for the truesim > fan without this feature. > >

Ed, The "passion" is there not because we enjoy flaming and/or bashing you guys..but because many of us were drooling playing the demo and counting the days until the full version came out only to be devastated by this revelation about the save game feature. This was going to be the flat out most incredible nascar sim to date until we realized this omission.I feel like I finally had met the girl of my dreams, fell madly in love with her, asked her to marry me and then she stood me up at the church.You took 3 steps forward with this sim and one LEAP backwards. I assumed we won this "battle" 4 years ago with Nascar2 and that this feature is now virtually a standard in every sports game on the market. Papyrus did NOT put dozens of man hours into releasing a patch to fix this same thing for N2 in 1996 because me and one other guy halfway across the country griped about it. They did it because THOUSANDS of gamers expressed SEVERE displeasure with it. Neither am naive enough to believe they did it because they are nice guys who decided to "support" us. They did it because they are savvy business men who sensed the long term game would be dead in the water without it. And they KNEW that the track expansion packs, Busch expansion packs,Craftsman truck expansion packs, as well as "Gold" editions were in the future to further milk the market. I suggest that you print this out, take it to your development team, and do what you got to do to get the save feature and in-race reply into the game. If not, Nascar 4 looms large on the horizon, and Heat is dead without them . You can pay a little now, or ALOT later. I sincerely believe this will actually hurt this games sales,(not intially,but when N4 hits the shelves with its save feature in tact,Heats sales will RAPIDLY decline) and thats what you guys are in business for. Its a shame, an awesome game for short sprint races, but not for full length racing for the true sim fan without this feature.

[email hidden] (Chas39cop) wrote: -<+>- Ed, -<+>-The "passion" is there not because we enjoy flaming and/or bashing you -<+>-guys..but because many of us were drooling playing the demo and counting the -<+>-days until the full version came out only to be devastated by this revelation -<+>-about the save game feature. This was going to be the flat out most incredible -<+>-nascar sim to date until we realized this omission.I feel like I finally had -<+>-met the girl of my dreams, fell madly in love with her, asked her to marry me -<+>-and then she stood me up at the church.You took 3 steps forward with this sim -<+>-and one LEAP backwards. Hogwash... Savegame has no impact as to whether this is a good simulation or not. Frankly, I could not care less whether it has a savegame feature in it or not. I have all the Papy sims, and never use the savegame feature on any of them. I seriously doubt a large number of you "pro savers" will boycott the game because of the lack of a Save feature. -<+>-I assumed we won this "battle" 4 years ago with Nascar2 -<+>-and that this feature is now virtually a standard in every sports game on the -<+>-market. Papyrus did NOT put dozens of man hours into releasing a patch to fix -<+>-this same thing for N2 in 1996 because me and one other guy halfway across the -<+>-country griped about it. They did it because THOUSANDS of gamers expressed -<+>-SEVERE displeasure with it. Neither am naive enough to believe they did it -<+>-because they are nice guys who decided to "support" us. They did it because -<+>-they are savvy business men who sensed the long term game would be dead in the -<+>-water without it. And they KNEW that the track expansion packs, Busch expansion -<+>-packs,Craftsman truck expansion packs, as well as "Gold" editions were in the -<+>-future to further milk the market. I suggest that you print this out, take it -<+>-to your development team, and do what you got to do to get the save feature and -<+>-in-race reply into the game. If not, Nascar 4 looms large on the horizon, and -<+>-Heat is dead without them. Hogwash again. -<+>- You can pay a little now, or ALOT later. I -<+>-sincerely believe this will actually hurt this games sales,(not intially,but -<+>-when N4 hits the shelves with its save feature in tact,Heats sales will RAPIDLY -<+>-decline) and thats what you guys are in business for. Its a shame, an awesome -<+>-game for short sprint races, but not for full length racing for the true sim -<+>-fan without this feature. -<+>- Games will always decrease in sales when a new game appears. Nascar heat will be no different. Hasbro can save the $ from developing the savegame feature and put it in their pocket. I am sure there will only be 2 copies which might have otherwise sold if it only had a Savegame feature, no more.... yours and NOS's. Is the $ and effort worth the $100 you may or may not spend on the game... Nah..... Hasbro has a winner game with or without a savegame feature. As you can see, my opinion is 180 degrees of yours. Fortunatly for Hasbro, mine is the more popular opinion. Thanks, Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org My 2nd Baby!!! (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email)

It wont hurt the game? Hogwash..here is a quarter..buy a clue!

Gee there is a new one I'm sure Ed hasn't heard. Guys please give it a rest, let's at least play the stinkin game before we tell him how to change it. Let the man have a minute to bask. Chad chadliz Chas39cop <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ed, > The "passion" is there not because we enjoy flaming and/or bashing you > guys..but because many of us were drooling playing the demo and countingthe > days until the full version came out only to be devastated by thisrevelation > about the save game feature. This was going to be the flat out mostincredible > nascar sim to date until we realized this omission.I feel like I finallyhad > met the girl of my dreams, fell madly in love with her, asked her to marryme > and then she stood me up at the church.You took 3 steps forward with thissim > and one LEAP backwards. I assumed we won this "battle" 4 years ago withNascar2 > and that this feature is now virtually a standard in every sports game onthe > market. Papyrus did NOT put dozens of man hours into releasing a patch tofix > this same thing for N2 in 1996 because me and one other guy halfway acrossthe > country griped about it. They did it because THOUSANDS of gamers expressed > SEVERE displeasure with it. Neither am naive enough to believe they did it > because they are nice guys who decided to "support" us. They did itbecause > they are savvy business men who sensed the long term game would be dead inthe > water without it. And they KNEW that the track expansion packs, Buschexpansion > packs,Craftsman truck expansion packs, as well as "Gold" editions were inthe > future to further milk the market. I suggest that you print this out, takeit > to your development team, and do what you got to do to get the savefeature and > in-race reply into the game. If not, Nascar 4 looms large on the horizon,and > Heat is dead without them . You can pay a little now, or ALOT later. I > sincerely believe this will actually hurt this games sales,(notintially,but > when N4 hits the shelves with its save feature in tact,Heats sales willRAPIDLY > decline) and thats what you guys are in business for. Its a shame, anawesome > game for short sprint races, but not for full length racing for the truesim > fan without this feature. > >

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 05:39:46 GMT, Red 86 Vet <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Hogwash... Savegame has no impact as to whether this is a good simulation or not. Frankly, I could >not care less whether it has a savegame feature in it or not. I have all the Papy sims, and never >use the savegame feature on any of them. How many times have you run at 100% lenght? -- Nos

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 02:41:15 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>Noooo! Chad, let's hope he DOESN'T buy it. If he buys it, we will >have to endure his incessant whining about the waste of his >$39.95 on an "arcade game". > >Let him hate it, refuse to buy it, and hope he moves on.. > > ;)

Think I'll buy NH now just so I can whine about it *everyday* until it gets a save game patch. :-) -- Nos

On 22 Aug 2000 05:44:40 GMT, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) wrote: >It wont hurt the game? Hogwash..here is a quarter..buy a clue! Yep, you heard it correctly... It will not hurt the simulation. I will still buy Nascar Heat (with or without Savegame) as will countless others. It appears that Hasbro's market research has also indicated the same information.

>How many times have you run at 100% lenght? I do not run at 100% length because I have many other priorities which do not allow me the necessary time. I much prefer sprint races 50 laps at Dega is always great. 75-100 at Bristol... you get the idea. I can always find 30-45 mins to drive around. I get to Qual, Start and Finish my race in a short amount of time. It is perfect.

Boy... haha don't I wish.... I was only that many many grey hairs ago... nevertheless, If I were a retailer I would not mention a savegame feature if it was there, as I have stated many times, it is an optional feature, and Hasbro has decided to not include this extra option. That was their choice in design, as it is your choice to support the product or not. It is your choice. >Silly boy. He is not decrying the quality of the simulation, old son. He's looking at it from a >marketing aspect. >If I were a retailer I would keep my mouth shut as tightly as possible about this non-feature.

You can call it Sliced Bread if you want, it does not affect the playability nor does it add a savegame feature. To me GPL is an Arcade Game, to others it is a simulation. To me Nascar Heat may be a simulation and to you it may be a toy. Bottom line is the same, Hasbro will sell a $hitload of em and make a bundle... with or without your support. >Yea..guess there are ALOT of arcade racers out there! LOL

If I run at 10% or you run it at 120% race length does not change the fact it is a game. I will reserve the word simulation for the Navy or Airforce combat simulators. Therefore this essentially puts all PC "simulations" in the Arcade/Game bracket. You are not going to get a "simulation" for $50. >Thats WHY its an arcade game! LOL

HaHaHa exactly.....

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>Seeing how you like your sim racing so much, and you seem to be after >the ultimate simracing experience, I can offer you, and others like you, >the ultimate in race realism. It's a house call service, providing the >very latest in sim technology called a HPIEF (a high-power impact >enhancement facilitator). > >It's quite simple really, all we do is stand next to you while you race, >and every time you crash we use the HPIEF (otherwise know as a >sledgehammer) on both your knees. Ultimate realism for your simracing >desires. > >Interested? > >Freeburn. > >Chas39cop wrote: > >> Yea..guess there are ALOT of arcade racers out there! LOL

Freeburn wrote:

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> > Seeing how you like your sim racing so much, and you seem to be after > the ultimate simracing experience, I can offer you, and others like you, > the ultimate in race realism. It's a house call service, providing the > very latest in sim technology called a HPIEF (a high-power impact > enhancement facilitator). > > It's quite simple really, all we do is stand next to you while you race, > and every time you crash we use the HPIEF (otherwise know as a > sledgehammer) on both your knees. Ultimate realism for your simracing > desires. > > Interested?

Not unless a baseball bat for my helmet is also implemented. How much? ;-)) -- Chuck Kandler Windows--computing for the Unwashed Masses Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:39:24 +0100, Freeburn <alan.daly@NOSPAM!ntlworld.com> wrote: >It's quite simple really, all we do is stand next to you while you race, >and every time you crash we use the HPIEF (otherwise know as a >sledgehammer) on both your knees. Ultimate realism for your simracing >desires. > >Interested? Not personally, but I would like to know if you have any sort of arrangements available to send this as a gift to someone... LOL Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Seeing how you like your sim racing so much, and you seem to be after the ultimate simracing experience, I can offer you, and others like you, the ultimate in race realism. It's a house call service, providing the very latest in sim technology called a HPIEF (a high-power impact enhancement facilitator). It's quite simple really, all we do is stand next to you while you race, and every time you crash we use the HPIEF (otherwise know as a sledgehammer) on both your knees. Ultimate realism for your simracing desires. Interested? Freeburn. Chas39cop wrote: > Yea..guess there are ALOT of arcade racers out there! LOL

Uncle Fester wrote: > Not unless a baseball bat for my helmet is also implemented. How much? > ;-)) You must be referring to the CRAP ;) (Cranial Re-Active Product) We tried this but the beta testers feedback rated it as frankly, shite ;) Freeburn

Lets just say that our delivery boy is of 'Italian' heritage ;) Freeburn (nothing personal to any Italians out there, but I'm sure you get the joke :) ) "Brett C. Cammack" wrote:

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> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:39:24 +0100, Freeburn > <alan.daly@NOSPAM!ntlworld.com> wrote: > >It's quite simple really, all we do is stand next to you while you race, > >and every time you crash we use the HPIEF (otherwise know as a > >sledgehammer) on both your knees. Ultimate realism for your simracing > >desires. > > > >Interested? > > Not personally, but I would like to know if you have any sort of > arrangements available to send this as a gift to someone... LOL > > Regards, > Brett C. Cammack > That's Racing! Motorsports > Pompano Beach, FL

Have any of you noticed that "ED" doesn't seem to reply to threads that become bitter? Yes you "may" have a legitmate complaint, but including tons of Bombast and verbiage attacking the developers and producers won't get your message across. Far better to raise a complaint, ask for others feedback and let the MGI guys read what they may. Getting into a line by line argument over what "he" said vs what "I" said doesn't get games fixed. Let'em KNOW you are disappointed and then let it go. 15 replies between 2 or 3 users is NOT going to get a patch written. -- dave henrie Free the ICR2 source code!

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:25:08 GMT, Red 86 Vet <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >I do not run at 100% length because I have many other priorities which >do not allow me the necessary time. I much prefer sprint races 50 >laps at Dega is always great. 75-100 at Bristol... you get the idea. >I can always find 30-45 mins to drive around. I get to Qual, Start >and Finish my race in a short amount of time. It is perfect. Thanks for biting. If there was a save game feature you would be able to play for 30-45min at a time, but still run a 100% race. If you only wan to run sprints then I that's fine. What about people that don't though. Guess you are of the me,me,me generation. -- Nos

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:28:13 GMT, Red 86 Vet <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >That was their choice in design, I don't think it was so much a design choice as a way to cut corners and get the product out sooner. -- Nos

>Thanks for biting. If there was a save game feature you would be able >to play for 30-45min at a time, but still run a 100% race. If you only >wan to run sprints then I that's fine. What about people that don't >though. Guess you are of the me,me,me generation. Lets try to keep this argument on a professional level and not lower it to the degrading comments. I knew when I replied saying I only play short races you would take this argument in this direction. You have missed my point entirely. Hasbro surely has done some market research prior to designing Nascar Heat. I would further venture to say, their market research indicated a save game feature was just another optional bell which would have little or no impact on the return on investment associated with undertaking such a large programming task. If you see this as a me me me statement, you are sadly mistaken. If I was of the me me me mentality, would I not want every bell and whistle I could obtain?

>Conversely, if you were of the me, me, me generation, you would >be bawling your eyes out when you didn't get what you >'deserved'. There are lots of those people here, unfortunately. Thanks for sticking up for me. :-)

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:39:30 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote: >Conversely, if you were of the me, me, me generation, you would >be bawling your eyes out when you didn't get what you >'deserved'. If he was of the me, me, me generation he would also do things like bitch people out for what they put in their signature because he doesn't care about it. Of course he would never do anything like that. ~daxe

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:28:39 -0400, "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>there is absolutely, positively nothing "sim" about a game that has a save >game feature. What real life race lets you save the race and run it later? I >challenge you to find one dang motorsports series that allow the drivers to >save their race and run it on Monday for instance. You can say it is a >feature you would like but dont dare say it hurts the sim portion of the >game. > >That just doesnt make sense ...

Oh geez...another person with brilliant logic. -- Nos

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:36:10 GMT, Red 86 Vet <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>Lets try to keep this argument on a professional level and not lower >it to the degrading comments. I knew when I replied saying I only >play short races you would take this argument in this direction. You >have missed my point entirely. Hasbro surely has done some market >research prior to designing Nascar Heat. I would further venture to >say, their market research indicated a save game feature was just >another optional bell which would have little or no impact on the >return on investment associated with undertaking such a large >programming task.

I doubt that very much. If you have any knowledge of Hasbro's marketing of flight sims since they got into the gaming market you will know that they don't care what the customer really wants, they just want the quickest return on investment with the least amount of expenditure. I doubt they asked any potential customes what they would like in the game. -- Nos

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:39:30 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Conversely, if you were of the me, me, me generation, you would >be bawling your eyes out when you didn't get what you >'deserved'. There are lots of those people here, unfortunately. > Look who's talking. You forget that I've seen lot's of posts from you over the years in the flight-sim group. Fly! has crappy terrain, the Grand Canyon is too shallow. Waaaaaaaaa........ Ring a bell? :-) -- Nos

On 22 Aug 2000 21:54:06 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) thus spoke: >Can I answer this, too? You already did.

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> I have all the Papy games to, except CTS. I've run a >full-season, 100% distance race at least twice in both Nascar and Indycar >racing. I've run about 20 full-length races in GPL, and 2 12-hour races in >SCGT(Gotta love the AI driver). I even ran about 10-15 full races in >Indy500...<g> >I've used save game features in racing games less than 5 times TOTAL. If I >have something else to do, I hit pause. The fact that NH doesn't have a save >game feature is definitely NOT a reason for me not to buy it. > >Eldred

Let me ask you this. Do you think you are representative of the majority of gamers or are you a sim racing fanatic? -- Nos

>I doubt that very much. If you have any knowledge of Hasbro's >marketing of flight sims since they got into the gaming market you >will know that they don't care what the customer really wants, they >just want the quickest return on investment with the least amount of >expenditure. I doubt they asked any potential customes what they would >like in the game. I do not have any specific information about any companies market research. One would certainly think a company such as Hasbro/Microprose would have ample resources to conduct a proper market survey prior to shelling out the cash required for any project the magnitude of Nascar Heat. I am obviously out of touch with their flight simulators (games) but if they failed to conduct proper research prior to engaging in the developement of ANY software title, they do deserve, to an extent, a backlash via their potential customers. I would think the goal of any company SHOULD be the quickest return on investiment with the least amount of expenditure. As an engineer, this is my primary duty. Get something newer, faster better, cheaper on the market before another company does is my every day goal. I can say that we (where I work) do conduct market studies, and I can not imagine trying to do my job without this valuable research. It would make designing anything a real fiasco.

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:39:10 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote: > If I had to pick one feature that I don't like about NH, >the replay-of-no-return would be tops on my list. It certainly >wouldn't be lack of a savegame. I agree 100%

Don't know if he is representative of the majority of gamers or a sim fanatic but he certainly reprsents the same POV that I have! But then again I just got the game today and I haven't even thought about a save game feature. Too busy trying to do setups and race the most incredible AI I have ever seen. Needed to take a break my arm is getting sore from 7 hours of continuous play! Pete <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 22 Aug 2000 21:54:06 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) thus > > Let me ask you this. Do you think you are representative of the > majority of gamers or are you a sim racing fanatic? > -- > Nos

Maybe, but in the end, the choice to have/not have this feature in the game was purposefully designed into/outof the game -<+>-On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:28:13 GMT, Red 86 Vet -<+>-<[email hidden]> thus spoke: -<+>- -<+>->That was their choice in design, -<+>- -<+>-I don't think it was so much a design choice as a way to cut corners -<+>-and get the product out sooner. Thanks, Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org My 2nd Baby!!! (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email)

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:51:05 GMT, Red 86 Vet <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>I do not have any specific information about any companies market >research. One would certainly think a company such as >Hasbro/Microprose would have ample resources to conduct a proper >market survey prior to shelling out the cash required for any project >the magnitude of Nascar Heat. I am obviously out of touch with their >flight simulators (games) but if they failed to conduct proper >research prior to engaging in the developement of ANY software title, >they do deserve, to an extent, a backlash via their potential >customers.

Let me just say that in the flight-sim group Hasbro is despised by most. >I would think the goal of any company SHOULD be the quickest return on >investiment with the least amount of expenditure. If you subscribe to the quick and dirty method, yes. But, then there are those companies that also care about a quality product. Guess who's products I buy. > As an engineer, >this is my primary duty. Really? Then I supose you took Business 101 along with your Engineering courses? Personally I dislike modern day business practices, but I digress. -- Nos

YES, I've heard of a rain delay. That's not the deal here, though. If the game said, "Rain Delay", and it wouldnt let you save it for later, that would be tough to swallow but realistic since you never know when weather will stop. The problem I have with all this is people saying this isn't a good sim because of not having a "save game" feature. That has nothing to do with the simulation of a sport. It might not make it a great game but that has nothing to do with the simulation, which Nascar Heat will be better than anything else at simulating a NASCAR race. Just like driving from an arcade view, what are you simulating? A copter cam view of the race? The "save game" deal is an arcade feature. You can't do that in real life so what makes that a sim problem? "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >What real life race lets you save the race and run it later? I > >challenge you to find one dang motorsports series that allow the driversto

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> >save their race and run it on Monday for instance. > > Ever heard of a rain delay...? :) > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +51.31 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Milliken <[email hidden]> writes: >Check out a shareware version of H.I.T at ftp.seedeerom.kom and try 5 >kills and if H.I.T. fits your need its registration price is just >$39.99...and we DO suggest you register it if you intend to use it, >because we know where you live.... There are some talented writers in this group...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Uh..talk to Ed Martin....BOZO...LOLOL

>You had better talk to Ed Martin Rev....LMAO..........dont you know anything >about programming code? Obviously not! >>I know a little bit about coding, Chas. I was a Systems Engineer and developer at IBM Corporation for 30 years. >>You? LMAO...email me when you've talked to Ed Martin about it!!

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes:

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>> I have all the Papy games to, except CTS. I've run a >>full-season, 100% distance race at least twice in both Nascar and Indycar >>racing. I've run about 20 full-length races in GPL, and 2 12-hour races in >>SCGT(Gotta love the AI driver). I even ran about 10-15 full races in >>Indy500...<g> >>I've used save game features in racing games less than 5 times TOTAL. If I >>have something else to do, I hit pause. The fact that NH doesn't have a >save >>game feature is definitely NOT a reason for me not to buy it. >> >>Eldred > >Let me ask you this. Do you think you are representative of the >majority of gamers or are you a sim racing fanatic?

I dunno - I know of several people that run 100% *online* races, even a full season. I'd certainly think that THEY are more fanatical...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>I doubt that very much. If you have any knowledge of Hasbro's >marketing of flight sims since they got into the gaming market you >will know that they don't care what the customer really wants, they >just want the quickest return on investment with the least amount of >expenditure. I doubt they asked any potential customes what they would >like in the game. >

Quite honestly, I don't expect that ANY publisher does that when they start 'creating'. I think they settle on a list of features that they want, and start coding. During later stages of the project, they may ask the playtesters what improvments they'd like. If it's easy to add, they do. If not, maybe in a later edition. It would be NICE if they asked potential customers, but I don't think they do. But, I've never been involved in the actual DESIGN, just playtesting... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) writes: >And BTW, read the review of the game at High-Compression.com...especially >check >out what the reviewer says about the lack of a save game..LMAO To tell you the truth, the people who don't care much about the savegame issue certainly aren't going to care about what some reviewer says about it... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) writes:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>WHAT? Virtually every sports game on the market has a save feature..they make >god damn memory cards for the console sytems so you can SAVE your game! >Manufacturers make Zip drives, floppy disks, tape back-ups,CD burners all so >we >can SAVE SAVE SAVE our data!!! It is a fundemental part of virtually all >computer technology. These bozo's who continue to think it is some >unneccessary >"perk" just baffle me with their brilliance. LMAO

So in other words, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a bozo? Now *that's* a convincing argument... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) writes:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>If you had to pick between the 2? Dont you guys get it? You cant watch a >replay >BECAUSE the game cannot be saved! If we had the save, we would have the >ability >to watch the replay..The problem of not being able to watch the replay STEMS >from the same programming omission as the save race feature! You cannot have >one without the other. LOL..and you guys thought it was some petty little >inconvenience..have fun cycling thru hours of racing AFTER the race is over >to >watch the wreck that occurred in the middle of the Coca-Cola >600...LOL..enjoy!

That's an invalid argument. GPL allows viewing of a replay during a race, and it doesn't have a save game.... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes: >>I agree. If I had to pick one feature that I don't like about NH, >>the replay-of-no-return would be tops on my list. It certainly >>wouldn't be lack of a savegame. > >Well, just how realistic is it to exit a race and review the replay? >Gotta throw in some of my own idiot logic if everyone else is. If you were in a real race, you could have your spotter tell you how your corner entry, etc was... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." <[email hidden]> writes: >What real life race lets you save the race and run it later? I >challenge you to find one dang motorsports series that allow the drivers to >save their race and run it on Monday for instance. Ever heard of a rain delay...? :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:39:10 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >I agree. If I had to pick one feature that I don't like about NH, >the replay-of-no-return would be tops on my list. It certainly >wouldn't be lack of a savegame. Well, just how realistic is it to exit a race and review the replay? Gotta throw in some of my own idiot logic if everyone else is. -- Nos

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:52:02 GMT, Red 86 Vet <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >I agree 100% What? You guys say saving a race isn't realistic, but watching a replay while the race is still on is? Mwahahahahahaaaaa.... -- Nos

what's wrong with the logic? Anyone with a brain can't argue that defense! C'mon, argue with that. Why is that fallible? <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:28:39 -0400, "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >there is absolutely, positively nothing "sim" about a game that has asave > >game feature. What real life race lets you save the race and run itlater? I > >challenge you to find one dang motorsports series that allow the driversto

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> >save their race and run it on Monday for instance. You can say it is a > >feature you would like but dont dare say it hurts the sim portion of the > >game. > > > >That just doesnt make sense ... > > Oh geez...another person with brilliant logic. > > -- > Nos

-<+>-If you subscribe to the quick and dirty method, yes. But, then there -<+>-are those companies that also care about a quality product. Guess -<+>-who's products I buy. -<+>- -<+>-> As an engineer, -<+>->this is my primary duty. -<+>- -<+>-Really? Then I supose you took Business 101 along with your -<+>-Engineering courses? Personally I dislike modern day business -<+>-practices, but I digress. Of course, business 101 is important. My situation is a bit different, as I design equipment which requires high reliability. Hence, the design practices reflect this. Any engineer has the primary duty to design a fully functional "widget" with the least part count, cheapest cost, and quickest to market. That is just the way it is. A game is no different. Thanks, Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org My 2nd Baby!!! (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email)

If you had to pick between the 2? Dont you guys get it? You cant watch a replay BECAUSE the game cannot be saved! If we had the save, we would have the ability to watch the replay..The problem of not being able to watch the replay STEMS from the same programming omission as the save race feature! You cannot have one without the other. LOL..and you guys thought it was some petty little inconvenience..have fun cycling thru hours of racing AFTER the race is over to watch the wreck that occurred in the middle of the Coca-Cola 600...LOL..enjoy!

Being able to stop a race in the middle vs. running a shorter race. Both pretty arcadey by your standards. Of course I love arcades. Chris --who is hating GPL now with his new uselsess left foot technique, all sorts of bad habits from GP3, no feel for the wheel anymore, and 2 seconds less on every track. On 22 Aug 2000 16:35:31 GMT, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) wrote: >Thats WHY its an arcade game! LOL

Their market research doesnt mean squat...other than that they can make tons of money on loads of arcade racer bozo's who buy titles like Nascar Revolution and Nascar 2000. Just because people buy this game..doesnt mean it is an awesome game...the stick by which it shall be measured, whether you like it or not, is the Papy Nascar sims, and without a save feature OR in race replay (directly related) They have ALREADY handicapped themselves going against the reigning champ of Nascar Sims. You can bet the boys at Papy are grinning from ear to ear over this glaring omission. And with N4 still 6 months away..they will be sure to EXPLOIT all the things that Heat lacks...

WHAT? Virtually every sports game on the market has a save feature..they make god damn memory cards for the console sytems so you can SAVE your game! Manufacturers make Zip drives, floppy disks, tape back-ups,CD burners all so we can SAVE SAVE SAVE our data!!! It is a fundemental part of virtually all computer technology. These bozo's who continue to think it is some unneccessary "perk" just baffle me with their brilliance. LMAO

Not until January..when I buy Nacsar 4! LMAO

SURE! And i'll kick you in the head getting into the car! LMAO

Without my support..yes, they'll make there money..they know there are loads of bozos like you buying!

Just becuase you do not like my input by no means makes me a "bozo" You seem to be one of those its-my-way-or-the-highway types out there. Grow up, if you do not like the game, don't buy it. It is really very simple. Just quit all your damn whining and deal with it. -<+>-Without my support..yes, they'll make there money..they know there are loads of -<+>-bozos like you buying! Thanks, Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org My 2nd Baby!!! (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email)

-<+>-Their market research doesnt mean squat...other than that they can make tons of -<+>-money on loads of arcade racer bozo's who buy titles like Nascar Revolution and -<+>-Nascar 2000. That is exactly what market research means. It also means your precious savegame option is not worth the effort required to add it to the game. That is a simple fact. -<+>-Just because people buy this game..doesnt mean it is an awesome -<+>-game...the stick by which it shall be measured, whether you like it or not, is -<+>-the Papy Nascar sims, Yup, currently it is Papy and I am confident N4 will again set the standard by which all driving GAMES will be measured. Until that point, I would have to say Hasbro has the title, with or without the savegame, like it or not. -<+>- and without a save feature OR in race replay (directly -<+>-related) They have ALREADY handicapped themselves going against the reigning -<+>-champ of Nascar Sims. You can bet the boys at Papy are grinning from ear to ear -<+>-over this glaring omission. And with N4 still 6 months away..they will be sure -<+>-to EXPLOIT all the things that Heat lacks... If Papy is grinning from ear to ear and exploiting all the shortcomings of Nascar Heat that is all the much better for all of us. EVERY piece of software has room for improvement, and Nascar Heat will be not exception. However, to degrade it's "realism" for a stupid ass thing like a savegame OPTION is absolutely ignorant. You must remember, noone is making you buy this GAME, if you are unhappy about the lack of this option, by all means save your money for something which has this feature. I am by no means trying to sound to harsh, and I really do not want to stoop to your level of name calling. Just try to understand to a large number of people this is only a game. I. for one, refuse to give myself a heartattack over a stupid ass game. Thanks, Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org My 2nd Baby!!! (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email)

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:23:23 GMT, Red 86 Vet <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Of course, business 101 is important. My situation is a bit different, as I design equipment which >requires high reliability. Hence, the design practices reflect this. Any engineer has the primary >duty to design a fully functional "widget" with the least part count, cheapest cost, and quickest to >market. That is just the way it is. A game is no different. >Thanks, Perhaps so, but that also helps explain why there are so many faulty products on the market. -- Nos

Funny your such an advocate of this game and a such a business expert yet you just requested a copy of NASCAR Heat over in alt.binaries.games. You sir are a hypocrite. Go check out alt.binaries.games to see this bozo's true colors. I checked the headers and confirmed this was indeed our very own Red 86 Vet requesting that NASCAR Heat be posted. That ain't no demo group either. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> Just becuase you do not like my input by no means makes me a "bozo" You seem to be one of those > its-my-way-or-the-highway types out there. Grow up, if you do not like the game, don't buy it. It > is really very simple. Just quit all your damn whining and deal with it. > > -<+>-Without my support..yes, they'll make there money..they know there are loads of > -<+>-bozos like you buying! > > Thanks, > > Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) > Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" > Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org > My 2nd Baby!!! > > (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email) >

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:23:03 GMT, "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >what's wrong with the logic? Anyone with a brain can't argue that defense! >C'mon, argue with that. Why is that fallible? I've argued the point in a number of threads. Go read them if it really matters to you what I think.NH is not a no holds barred simulation for the race car driver. It's a game that tries to simulate Nascar racing. The product is marketed to gamers and therefore should have a save race feature. It should and you know it should. Any argument otherwise is illogical. With that being said I am done with this subject and will no longer be discussing it. -- Nos

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:59:16 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Chas, just a tip for you. You may wish to actually quote the post you >are responding to. That way everyone on this worldwide forum will >have an idea who you are responding to. > He wasn't responding to anyone specific Ed and that's why he never quoted anyone. It was to all of you. Guess you had no argument so you looked for a weak link in his defense and that was the best you could come up with. Huh? :-) -- Nos

Doug Milliken wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > I think you might be interested in this product: > > > First there was email, then there was talk, then voice communication, > now Corleone Systems introduces the latest development in Internet > communications...H.I.T. - Homicidal Internet Transfer. Now you can ice > your enemy from the comfort of your computer desk. Whether someone is > being a nuisance on a mailing list or trying to move in on your > territory you can effortlessly and without trace kill anyone with an > email address.

<Snip for brevity> > -Compatible versions available for DOS, Windows 3.11, Windows 95, OS/2, > MacOS, UNIX. The ex-wife lucked out. Still gotta wait for the Linux version. :-)) -- Chuck Kandler Windows--computing for the Unwashed Masses Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

Silly boy. He is not decrying the quality of the simulation, old son. He's looking at it from a marketing aspect. If I were a retailer I would keep my mouth shut as tightly as possible about this non-feature. Red 86 Vet wrote:

Quoted text (22 lines)

> Hogwash... Savegame has no impact as to whether this is a good simulation or not. Frankly, I could > not care less whether it has a savegame feature in it or not. I have all the Papy sims, and never > use the savegame feature on any of them. I seriously doubt a large number of you "pro savers" will > boycott the game because of the lack of a Save feature. > > - > Games will always decrease in sales when a new game appears. Nascar heat will be no different. > Hasbro can save the $ from developing the savegame feature and put it in their pocket. I am sure > there will only be 2 copies which might have otherwise sold if it only had a Savegame feature, no > more.... yours and NOS's. Is the $ and effort worth the $100 you may or may not spend on the > game... Nah..... Hasbro has a winner game with or without a savegame feature. > > As you can see, my opinion is 180 degrees of yours. Fortunatly for Hasbro, mine is the more popular > opinion. > Thanks, > > Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) > Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" > Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org > My 2nd Baby!!! > > (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email)

I will still be purchasing my copy tomorrow... I am just so excited I can not wait for another day... And what might your excuse be for visiting that area? Thanks, Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org My 2nd Baby!!! (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email)

-<+>-Funny your such an advocate of this game Yup... It should provide hours of fun and enjoyment. -<+>- and a such a business expert Ha... not harldy a business expert. -<+>-yet you just requested a copy of NASCAR Heat over in alt.binaries.games Yep, I sure did with my real name and Email and own website in my Sig too.... -<+>- You sir are a hypocrite. Not I, I will have my gold copy tomorrow if on the shelves at EB. -<+>- Go check out alt.binaries.games to see this bozo's true colors. Don't waste your time... It was indeed me. -<+>- I checked the headers and confirmed this was indeed our very own Red 86 Vet -<+>-requesting that NASCAR Heat be posted. So, I can not wait another 1 or 2 days. So shoot me already... -<+>-That ain't no demo group either. <GASP> Really?!?!?! I am shocked!!! By the way.... Mind your own business... Thanks, Mike Alexander ([email hidden]) Torch Red 1986 C4 "ITIS4FN" Pictures available at http://alexander.dyndns.org My 2nd Baby!!! (Note:remove the no_tickets. to send email)

Hmm, from what I have seen posted to date, it appears that the Heat group and Papyrus seem to have a high level of respect for each other, and I think they both realize they are marketing their products a little differently rather than going at each other directly. I mean think about it, Heat comes along and starts showing screen shots a few months ago, announcing an August release date. Did Papy get all nervous and try to rush their product out to try and compete in the same time frame as Heat? Nope, just the opposite. Ed has already stated on more than 1 occasion that they are targeting more of a general audience. Hence the rolling starts, hence I suspect the no save game feature, cut replay feature, etc etc. It appears, at least based on the demo, that they have done a great job for what they were shooting for, especially it being their first attempt. For us hardcore Papy fans, we are used to Papy pushing the edge in realism, and expect that of them. That's what they do, and I have no doubt N4, when it is released, will not dissappoint the hard core groups, as well as please the average racer as well. I guess what I am saying is, if your a serious sim racer, who buys the Papy sims for their realism and mulitplayer capabilites, that buys Heat and expects the same, your obviously going to be able to pick apart several things, should you choose. Much the same way that the not so serious, average racing game driver, might pick apart GPL for being just too hard. Their different products, with slightly different target audiences. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends ICQ# 74084566 "Chas39cop" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Their market research doesnt mean squat...other than that they can make tons of > money on loads of arcade racer bozo's who buy titles like Nascar Revolution and > Nascar 2000. Just because people buy this game..doesnt mean it is an awesome > game...the stick by which it shall be measured, whether you like it or not, is > the Papy Nascar sims, and without a save feature OR in race replay (directly > related) They have ALREADY handicapped themselves going against the reigning > champ of Nascar Sims. You can bet the boys at Papy are grinning from ear to ear > over this glaring omission. And with N4 still 6 months away..they will be sure > to EXPLOIT all the things that Heat lacks...

You had better talk to Ed Martin Rev....LMAO..........dont you know anything about programming code? Obviously not!

A voice of reason! Pete "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hMHo5.1696$[email hidden]... > Hmm, from what I have seen posted to date, it appears that the Heat group > and Papyrus seem to have a high level of respect for each other, and I > think they both realize they are marketing their products a little > differently rather than going at each other directly. I mean think aboutit, > Heat comes along and starts showing screen shots a few months ago, > announcing an August release date. Did Papy get all nervous and try torush > their product out to try and compete in the same time frame as Heat? Nope, > just the opposite. Ed has already stated on more than 1 occasion that they > are targeting more of a general audience. Hence the rolling starts, henceI > suspect the no save game feature, cut replay feature, etc etc. It appears, > at least based on the demo, that they have done a great job for what they > were shooting for, especially it being their first attempt. For ushardcore > Papy fans, we are used to Papy pushing the edge in realism, and expectthat > of them. That's what they do, and I have no doubt N4, when it is released, > will not dissappoint the hard core groups, as well as please the average > racer as well. > I guess what I am saying is, if your a serious sim racer, who buys thePapy

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> sims for their realism and mulitplayer capabilites, that buys Heat and > expects the same, your obviously going to be able to pick apart several > things, should you choose. Much the same way that the not so serious, > average racing game driver, might pick apart GPL for being just too hard. > Their different products, with slightly different target audiences. > > -- > Don Burnette > Dburn in N3 and Legends > ICQ# 74084566 >

And BTW, read the review of the game at High-Compression.com...especially check out what the reviewer says about the lack of a save game..LMAO

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 03:44:13 GMT, "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hmm, from what I have seen posted to date, it appears that the Heat group >and Papyrus seem to have a high level of respect for each other, and I >think they both realize they are marketing their products a little >differently rather than going at each other directly. This is the most sensible assessment I have read yet of this whole N4 vs. NH deal. > Ed has already stated on more than 1 occasion that they >are targeting more of a general audience. Hence the rolling starts, hence I >suspect the no save game feature, cut replay feature, etc etc. It appears, >at least based on the demo, that they have done a great job for what they >were shooting for, especially it being their first attempt. I have always known that on a scale where arcade is 0 and sim is 10, I sit somewhere around 8. Perhaps that's why the NH demo appeals to me so much. I love auto racing, so I look at every title (and buy them) but I don't care for them if they are too 'arcady.' Likewise, I really appreciate realistic physics up to the point where they get too difficult and/or time-consuming to master (GPL). Advopt SCGT is right up my alley. I value the fun aspect of a game/sim very much, as well. Not gleeful, childish fun (though I get some of that, too) but head to head racing excitement kind of fun. In the NH demo, I found my favorite kind of racing, now with AI that are actually fun to drive around, and some small concessions to pure simulation do nothing to detract from the value of the game at all from my perspective. I genuinely enjoy the way you can get in a pack in NH and drive around leaning on people and bumping a bit without spinning off into the wall. > For us hardcore >Papy fans, we are used to Papy pushing the edge in realism, and expect that >of them. That's what they do, and I have no doubt N4, when it is released, >will not dissappoint the hard core groups, as well as please the average >racer as well. I will run out and get N4 whenever it appears with all the anticipation I have for getting NH on tomorrow or thursday. I have used most all of Papyrus' sims over time and know this one will be enjoyable as well. I hope it can equal the 'fun' quotient of NH in addition to the added realism. >I guess what I am saying is, if your a serious sim racer, who buys the Papy >sims for their realism and mulitplayer capabilites, that buys Heat and >expects the same, your obviously going to be able to pick apart several >things, should you choose. Much the same way that the not so serious, >average racing game driver, might pick apart GPL for being just too hard. >Their different products, with slightly different target audiences. Very well said. I plan to buy each and appreciate it for what it is. I expect each to be excellent in its own respect. ~daxe

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 02:26:23 GMT, Frogdog <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Funny your such an advocate of this game and a such a business expert yet you >just requested a copy of NASCAR Heat over in alt.binaries.games. You sir are a >hypocrite. Go check out alt.binaries.games to see this bozo's true colors. I >checked the headers and confirmed this was indeed our very own Red 86 Vet >requesting that NASCAR Heat be posted. That ain't no demo group either. Interesting. Mwahahahaha.... -- Nos

[email hidden] wrote: > snip

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> > I doubt that very much. If you have any knowledge of Hasbro's > marketing of flight sims since they got into the gaming market you > will know that they don't care what the customer really wants, they > just want the quickest return on investment with the least amount of > expenditure. I doubt they asked any potential customes what they would > like in the game.

Hmm, they do care what the majority of their customers wants, sadly for us it's not the hardcore flight/racing sim crowd. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

In article <[email hidden]>, "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." <[email hidden]> writes:

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>YES, I've heard of a rain delay. That's not the deal here, though. If the >game said, "Rain Delay", and it wouldnt let you save it for later, that >would be tough to swallow but realistic since you never know when weather >will stop. The problem I have with all this is people saying this isn't a >good sim because of not having a "save game" feature. That has nothing to do >with the simulation of a sport. It might not make it a great game but that >has nothing to do with the simulation, which Nascar Heat will be better than >anything else at simulating a NASCAR race. Just like driving from an arcade >view, what are you simulating? A copter cam view of the race? The "save >game" deal is an arcade feature. You can't do that in real life so what >makes that a sim problem? > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <[email hidden]>, "Phillip Malphrus, Jr." >> <[email hidden]> writes: >> >> >What real life race lets you save the race and run it later? I >> >challenge you to find one dang motorsports series that allow the drivers >to >> >save their race and run it on Monday for instance. >> >> Ever heard of a rain delay...? :)

It was a joke - as in the race being stopped at halfway on Sunday, and finished on Monday. In essence, SAVED... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:03:02 +0200, Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Hmm, they do care what the majority of their customers wants, sadly for >us it's not the hardcore flight/racing sim crowd. Take a look at Gunship. They completely dumbed it down. No one likes it. They even cancelled the Tank Platoon add-on because sales where so poor. They screwed up big time with Gunship. -- Nos

From: [email hidden] Date: 8/22/00 8:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: <[email hidden]> Being able to stop a race in the middle vs. running a shorter race. Both pretty arcadey by your standards. Of course I love arcades. Chris --who is hating GPL now with his new uselsess left foot technique, all sorts of bad habits from GP3, no feel for the wheel anymore, and 2 seconds less on every track. On 22 Aug 2000 16:35:31 GMT, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) wrote: >Thats WHY its an arcade game! LOL Why not play football games with 2 minute quarters while we are at it..VERY realistic! LMAO

On 23 Aug 2000, EldredP wrote:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Milliken > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Check out a shareware version of H.I.T at ftp.seedeerom.kom and try 5 > >kills and if H.I.T. fits your need its registration price is just > >$39.99...and we DO suggest you register it if you intend to use it, > >because we know where you live.... > > There are some talented writers in this group...<g> > > Eldred

I didn't write the H.I.T. joke...it went around the 'net several years ago and it just seemed like a good time to re-cycle it. -- Doug Douglas Milliken <[email hidden]> Milliken Research Associates Inc.

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >>These bozo's who continue to think it is some unneccessary >>"perk" just baffle me with their brilliance. >So in other words, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a bozo? Now >*that's* a convincing argument... If the save-game feature is implemented, those who want the feature can use it and those who don't want the feature don't have to use it. Everyone's happy. If the save-game feature is not implemented, then only those who don't want the feature are happy. The inability to understand this simple concept should, IMHO, put one in the bozo category. Regards, Rick

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Rick E.) writes:

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>[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>>These bozo's who continue to think it is some unneccessary >>>"perk" just baffle me with their brilliance. > >>So in other words, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a bozo? Now >>*that's* a convincing argument... > >If the save-game feature is implemented, those who want the feature can use >it and those who don't want the feature don't have to use it. Everyone's >happy. If the save-game feature is not implemented, then only those who >don't want the feature are happy. > >The inability to understand this simple concept should, IMHO, put one in >the bozo category.

Some people are actually AGAINST a savegame feature. If you can save a lap in progress, it would be possible to cut-and-past the 'perfect' lap. That renders hotlap competitions useless. If the savegame feature is implemented, then only those who want the feature are happy. The inability to understand this simple concept should, IMHO, put one in the bozo category. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) writes: >So we should sacrifice running full 100% Championship seasons in a Winston >Cup >Racing game because you like to run hot laps? I've always believed those >AGAINST the save feature are clearly not SIM racers..hot laps are not >simulations...your post only validates my opinion. > Assumptions reign supreme, Chas...<sigh> Did I ever say that *I* only run hotlaps? No, I said that SOME people do, and thus are against a savegame feature. Even if I *was* against savegames(which I'm not), do you really think I would care what YOU think about it?!? Yeah, RIGHT. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > (Rick E.) writes: > > >[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > > >>>These bozo's who continue to think it is some unneccessary > >>>"perk" just baffle me with their brilliance. > > > >>So in other words, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a bozo? Now > >>*that's* a convincing argument... > > > >If the save-game feature is implemented, those who want the feature can use > >it and those who don't want the feature don't have to use it. Everyone's > >happy. If the save-game feature is not implemented, then only those who > >don't want the feature are happy. > > > >The inability to understand this simple concept should, IMHO, put one in > >the bozo category. > > Some people are actually AGAINST a savegame feature. If you can save a lap in > progress, it would be possible to cut-and-past the 'perfect' lap. That renders > hotlap competitions useless. If the savegame feature is implemented, then only > those who want the feature are happy. > > The inability to understand this simple concept should, IMHO, put one in the > bozo category. >

Ouch!! -- Chuck Kandler Windows--computing for the Unwashed Masses Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

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>If the save-game feature is implemented, those who want the feature can use >it and those who don't want the feature don't have to use it. Everyone's >happy. If the save-game feature is not implemented, then only those who >don't want the feature are happy. > >The inability to understand this simple concept should, IMHO, put one in >the bozo category. >>Some people are actually AGAINST a savegame feature. If you can save a lap

in progress, it would be possible to cut-and-past the 'perfect' lap. That renders hotlap competitions useless. If the savegame feature is implemented, then only >>those who want the feature are happy. >>The inability to understand this simple concept should, IMHO, put one in the >>bozo category. So we should sacrifice running full 100% Championship seasons in a Winston Cup Racing game because you like to run hot laps? I've always believed those AGAINST the save feature are clearly not SIM racers..hot laps are not simulations...your post only validates my opinion.

The lack of a savegame forces most of us to run shorter races. Thats like playing a football game with 2 minute quarters. UNrealistic, plain and simple, doesn't matter how good the physics are. Not to mention the volumes of race strategies lost by this omission. Its importance is not rocket science.

>>Even if I *was* against savegames(whichI'm not), do you really think I would care what YOU think about it?!? Yeah, >>RIGHT. Obviously you do, as you have replied to numerous posts by me..LOLOL

On 31 Aug 2000 03:30:51 GMT, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) wrote: >The lack of a savegame forces most of us to run shorter races. No, *your* lack of time forces you to run shorter races. NH is computer software. If you feel as though computer software is forcing you to do things, you need professional help. >Thats like >playing a football game with 2 minute quarters. UNrealistic, plain and simple, What is not realistic is you not having the time to drive a full race. Reality does not hinge on your schedule. Read this carefully. It isn't rocket science, either: REAL races are uninterrupted 100% length a sim that offers you uninterrupted 100% length races is not UNrealistic. REAL races are not stopped and started based on the drivers' schedules. a sim that allows you to stop and start based on your schedule is not enhancing its REALISM. >doesn't matter how good the physics are. So stopping the sim is more important than driving it? Why don't you just not start in the first place, then? > Not to mention the volumes of race >strategies lost by this omission. Its importance is not rocket science. It isn't important to me at all. Why do you feel it is important to others simply because *you* are inconvenienced by it? Don't blame the game for your schedule, plain and simple. ~daxe

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 04:02:53 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>So stopping the sim is more important than driving it? Why don't you >just not start in the first place, then? >It isn't important to me at all. Why do you feel it is important to >others simply because *you* are inconvenienced by it? Don't blame the >game for your schedule, plain and simple. > >~daxe >

What a myopic view. -- Slacker

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 07:08:21 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

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>On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 04:02:53 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> >thus spoke: > > >>So stopping the sim is more important than driving it? Why don't you >>just not start in the first place, then? > >>It isn't important to me at all. Why do you feel it is important to >>others simply because *you* are inconvenienced by it? Don't blame the >>game for your schedule, plain and simple. >> >>~daxe >> > >What a myopic view.

Myopic means nearsighted. What's more nearsighted than wrongly thinking a game lacks reality simply because it doesn't conform to your schedule? ~daxe

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:19:16 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Myopic means nearsighted. What's more nearsighted than wrongly >thinking a game lacks reality simply because it doesn't conform to >your schedule? > >~daxe What's wrong with it is that you only see it from your own perspective and don't see it as others see it.That's myopic. -- Slacker

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Chas39cop) writes: >>>Even if I *was* against savegames(which >I'm not), do you really think I would care what YOU think about it?!? Yeah, >>>RIGHT. > >Obviously you do, as you have replied to numerous posts by me..LOLOL > Hehe... Ok, I give up...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:44:27 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

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>On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:19:16 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> >thus spoke: > > >>Myopic means nearsighted. What's more nearsighted than wrongly >>thinking a game lacks reality simply because it doesn't conform to >>your schedule? >> >>~daxe > >What's wrong with it is that you only see it from your own perspective >and don't see it as others see it.That's myopic.

Let me try again for those too dim-witted to understand plain english the first couple times: REALITY does not have save games. NH is not UNREALISTIC based on not having a save game feature as the poster originally asserted. Reality doesn't change based on your perspective. Calling it unrealistic because it lacks a save game feature is not a different perspective, it is INCORRECT. ~daxe

On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 01:06:48 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>Let me try again for those too dim-witted to understand plain english >the first couple times: > >REALITY does not have save games. NH is not UNREALISTIC based on not >having a save game feature as the poster originally asserted. Reality >doesn't change based on your perspective. Calling it unrealistic >because it lacks a save game feature is not a different perspective, >it is INCORRECT. > >~daxe

In reality most people don't have the time to run a full race in one sitting. If they can't run the full race then it is also not realistic. See how you are being myopic now? Options man, that's the answer, options. BTW, why did you start this as a new thread with the subject of "W"? -- Slacker

On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 07:37:37 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

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>On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 01:06:48 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> >thus spoke: > > >>Let me try again for those too dim-witted to understand plain english >>the first couple times: >> >>REALITY does not have save games. NH is not UNREALISTIC based on not >>having a save game feature as the poster originally asserted. Reality >>doesn't change based on your perspective. Calling it unrealistic >>because it lacks a save game feature is not a different perspective, >>it is INCORRECT. >> >>~daxe > >In reality most people don't have the time to run a full race in one >sitting. If they can't run the full race then it is also not >realistic. See how you are being myopic now? Options man, that's the >answer, options. BTW, why did you start this as a new thread with the >subject of "W"?

As for the"W" I have no idea, must have been a slip/typo. That's what I get for posting late at night when I would be better off sleeping.. I do understand what you are talking about with the savegame, really, I do. There is a fine distinction I am picking on, however. NH (and other sims) that attempt to be realistic are trying to emulate *reality* as it relates to automobile racing, not the *realities* of people's lives. You know what I mean? If the variable that prevents people from running a full race is their lack of time to complete a race, it does not negatively impact the reality of the game, only their ability to avail themselves of it. Like I said before, I wish there were a save game feature in this title so people who want/need it would have that option. I, personally, would not use it. Not because of any perceived issue with reality, but just because I can't return in the middle of race and recapture the adrenaline and excitement level where I left off. That's just me and I don't expect anyone else to feel differently because of it. So, from the perspective of the reality of auto racing as portrayed by NH, the lack of savegame, by definition, has no negative impact. From the original poster's perspective as it relates to his life, it is unrealistic for NH to expect him to always be able to run a full race. There. Can we agree on that? thanks for putting up with my nitpicking, ~daxe

On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:21:21 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >There. Can we agree on that? > >thanks for putting up with my nitpicking, > >~daxe > Yes, I can agree on that. BTW, I looked at some of your computer art and listened to that song Hottime. Interesting stuff. -- Slacker

On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:48:24 GMT, [email hidden] (Jonathan Harker) wrote:

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>On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:21:21 GMT, daxe <[email hidden]> >thus spoke: > > >>There. Can we agree on that? >> >>thanks for putting up with my nitpicking, >> >>~daxe >> > >Yes, I can agree on that. BTW, I looked at some of your computer art >and listened to that song Hottime. Interesting stuff.

Thanks, JH. Listen to a few more! Some are actually listenable. ~daxe