Spa GP3 vs F12k

�Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve driven a lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. I don�t no about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat, wide track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept it to do (with the obligatory surprises of course). I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which didn�t help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows what it rally looks like and which one is most accurate? P

I think GP3 has F12k beat as far as background graphics is concerned. "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]...

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> �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve driven a > lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. I don�t no > about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat, wide > track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept it to do > (with the obligatory surprises of course). > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which didn�t > help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows what it > rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > P > >

Fortunate that it's the Belgium Grand Prix next weekend eh?! <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8nnqco$ijm$[email hidden]...

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> Great minds must think alike -- since I sorted out my graphics problems > with GP3, I've also been running quite a few laps at Spa in both GP3 > and F12K, and I have to agree with you that the GP3 version seems much > more pleasing graphically. Like you, though, I have no idea about > accuracy, but there are definite differences -- for example, > the "depth" of the sand traps, the distance between the tracks and the > barriers, the angles of some turns, etc. I would be interested in > seeing some actual footage of Spa (I don't follow F1 all that closely, > myself), or hearing from some people who are familiar with the real- > life track as to which seems more accurate. > > As for driving physics, though, I still find myself enjoying F12K much > more than GP3. I do think that GP3 can be fun, but I don't find it as > challenging, and I miss the acceleration/deceleration in-cockpit > movements in GP3 -- on the other hand, I miss the lateral in-cockpit > motions in F12K, but I can live without that more than I can live > without the accel/decel cues. F12K feels much more lively to me, but > GP3 is definitely a decent driving model in its own right. If you do > really prefer the grip levels and handling in GP3, though, someone > named "si phi" posted a mod for F12K on the High Gear F12K forum that > really makes F12K feel a lot more like GP3 -- you can download the file > from this location: > > http://www.btinternet.com/~si.phi/f12000/Files/DEFAULT.VHS > > Note that this link IS the file you need, so right-click on this to > download it (or do a "save as" after loading it into your browser). > Additionally, the author said: > > "Could anyone who is interested please download the file and put it in > the season00/vehicles folder (back up the original default.vhs first) > and have a little test. I have only tried it briefly at Imola, so I am > grateful for any feedback." > > You can find the original post here on the High Gear forums: > > http://forums.simracingnews.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/001802.html > > All in all, I do like a lot of touches in GP3, but when it comes to > things like track brightness and such in F12K, I find it perfectly > acceptable to crank up the gamma or brightness to get things up to a > more pleasing level, and the physics modeling more than makes up for > these kinds of shortcomings. As a casual F1 fan, things like track > innacuracies don't bother me that much, either, and since I have a low- > end system, the AI is almost a moot point (races aren't all that do- > able for me). I haven't tried any races in GP3 yet, since I'm just an > F1 hot-lapper at the moment, but so far, F12K is still my sim of choice > between the two, but I do see that GP3 has a lot to offer and it is > enjoyable in its own right. > > -- JB > > > In article <WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]>, > "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve > > driven a lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the > > winner. I don�t no about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please > > me, it�s a neat, wide track that allows me to work and the car is > > doing what I exept it to do (with the obligatory surprises of course). > > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which > > didn�t help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows > > what it rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > > > P > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Great minds must think alike -- since I sorted out my graphics problems with GP3, I've also been running quite a few laps at Spa in both GP3 and F12K, and I have to agree with you that the GP3 version seems much more pleasing graphically. Like you, though, I have no idea about accuracy, but there are definite differences -- for example, the "depth" of the sand traps, the distance between the tracks and the barriers, the angles of some turns, etc. I would be interested in seeing some actual footage of Spa (I don't follow F1 all that closely, myself), or hearing from some people who are familiar with the real- life track as to which seems more accurate. As for driving physics, though, I still find myself enjoying F12K much more than GP3. I do think that GP3 can be fun, but I don't find it as challenging, and I miss the acceleration/deceleration in-cockpit movements in GP3 -- on the other hand, I miss the lateral in-cockpit motions in F12K, but I can live without that more than I can live without the accel/decel cues. F12K feels much more lively to me, but GP3 is definitely a decent driving model in its own right. If you do really prefer the grip levels and handling in GP3, though, someone named "si phi" posted a mod for F12K on the High Gear F12K forum that really makes F12K feel a lot more like GP3 -- you can download the file from this location: http://www.btinternet.com/~si.phi/f12000/Files/DEFAULT.VHS Note that this link IS the file you need, so right-click on this to download it (or do a "save as" after loading it into your browser). Additionally, the author said: "Could anyone who is interested please download the file and put it in the season00/vehicles folder (back up the original default.vhs first) and have a little test. I have only tried it briefly at Imola, so I am grateful for any feedback." You can find the original post here on the High Gear forums: http://forums.simracingnews.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/001802.html All in all, I do like a lot of touches in GP3, but when it comes to things like track brightness and such in F12K, I find it perfectly acceptable to crank up the gamma or brightness to get things up to a more pleasing level, and the physics modeling more than makes up for these kinds of shortcomings. As a casual F1 fan, things like track innacuracies don't bother me that much, either, and since I have a low- end system, the AI is almost a moot point (races aren't all that do- able for me). I haven't tried any races in GP3 yet, since I'm just an F1 hot-lapper at the moment, but so far, F12K is still my sim of choice between the two, but I do see that GP3 has a lot to offer and it is enjoyable in its own right. -- JB In article <WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]>, "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve > driven a lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the > winner. I don�t no about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please > me, it�s a neat, wide track that allows me to work and the car is > doing what I exept it to do (with the obligatory surprises of course). > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which > didn�t help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows > what it rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > P > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Spa in GP3 is much more realistic than in F1 2000. Eau Rouge is totally wrong in F1 2000 allthough GP3's version is not perfect either but definately better than F1 2000's version. I dont understand how they (ISI) got this track so wrong. The other tracks in F1 2000 seem more realistic (Imola, Brasil, Silverstone etc.) than Spa. Overall I prefer the tracks in GP3. Last year I drove the *real* Spa track in my car (Spa is a streetcircuit, you can drive allmost 2/3 of the track in your own car) and Eau Rouge is a very impressive corner. It was kind of funny to see a bus going through Eau Rouge. The busdriver really liked it (big smile on his face), but the passengers didnt have that much fun :-) Cheers, JeDa Per Bostr�m <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]...

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> �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve driven a > lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. I don�t no > about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat, wide > track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept it to do > (with the obligatory surprises of course). > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which didn�t > help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows what it > rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > P > >

I agree with you. I also like Silverstone GP3 better, though I've never seen either one (except for TV). For some pics of the real track, check here: http://members.home.nl/dooremti/index.html Gives you a good perspective of Eau Rouge. If you can get a copy of a tape from last year's qualifying at Spa, you can see one good in car shot, and also find out what Eau Rouge does to those who don't respect her. On Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:11:58 +0200, "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>�Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve driven a >lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. I don�t no >about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat, wide >track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept it to do >(with the obligatory surprises of course). >I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which didn�t >help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > >The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows what it >rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > >P >

You can find at complete lap with Marc Gene in Spa 1999 here: http://www.f-1.ru/video/index_e.html -- \|/ � � --ooo---(_)---ooo-- Mvh. Lars Skov Olsen "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]... > �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve driven a > lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. I don�t no > about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat, wide > track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept it to do > (with the obligatory surprises of course). > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which didn�t > help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows what it > rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > P > >

I too spent about 4 hours comparing the two sims at Spa, my favorite track. My take: 1) Eye candy and weather effects are better in GP3. The detail graphics in GP3 are quite good, similar to SBK 2000 (photo-like). However, with all of the track updates online for F12K, this is not as much of a factor. Winner GP3 2) GP3 seems to run smoother on my system C360/550, TNT2U, Det3 194MB SDRAM. It still is slow at the first turn, aka GP2, but never "jerks". I've found a pretty good graphic setting compromise with F12K, so while not bad - just a little better in GP3. Winner GP3 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feels like I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm driving a computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In F12K, I really feel like I can throw the car around to the limit. In GP3, as I approach the limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm driving a beautiful PC simulation. This is a gut feel that in large is reinforced by the FF effects and angle of attitude as experienced in F12K when driving over curbs. What do F1 cars do to go faster at the limit than drive over curbs? Other FF effects are a little better in GP3. Winner F12K 4) There is little or no elevation change in GP3. Am I the only one that notices this? Really reminds me of GP2 here. Compare the 2nd chicane at Hockenheim, in both sims. Again, GP3 feels like you are driving a PC sim on a flat plane. And this is really evident at Spa. Winner F12K 5) Sound in both sims is not what it could have been. Your editing skills will create a winner (non-loser) here. Tie 6) Add-ons. Really good for both, but GP3 started with a big following. Winner GP3. 7) AI - GP3. Opposing drivers react more human like. No contest. Winner GP3 So, neither is perfect. I'm addicted to both. It's a shame that GP3 does not have better physics, curb use behavior, elevation changes, or that F12K's AI is so bad. Both will stay on my hard drive. F12K when I want to "feel" like I'm driving a race car, GP3, when I want to race. Dan Blake Atlanta "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]...

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> �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve driven a > lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. I don�t no > about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat, wide > track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept it to do > (with the obligatory surprises of course). > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which didn�t > help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows what it > rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > P > >

In article <uIUq5.2174$[email hidden]>, "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I�ve changed my opinion after a lot of driving at Spa. For the momentF12K > is more FUN. > Now my biggest problem with F12K-Spa is tha the course is much tooblack, > and that�s not a big problem. > > No matter what - Spa is one the greatest tracks. > > Per Try this link for a fix to make the graphics a little lighter in F12000 (the fix increases the global lighting of the scene): http://forums.simracingnews.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/001816.html (This link takes you to the appropriate post on the High Gear F12000 forum) -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

TOO true! Thankfully, what we lack in experience, we make up for by being "experts" about, er, well, I'm not exactly sure, come to think of it . . . ;-) -- JB In article <lqRq5.27220$[email hidden]>, "Braveheart" <[email hidden]> wrote: > everyone in this thread is very strange. > none of you have ever even driven a Formula One car.... so unlessyou have, > quit telling people how the physics are... because you have no idea. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Yes, the suspension on high-downforce cars tends to be stiff with little travel, but judging from what I've seen via in-car cameras (and experienced with mid-performance spec racers at driving schools), there is STILL a lot of motion going on in the cockpit. That's the main problem I have with GP3 -- it's so smooth that it feels like I'm, well, driving a computer. F12000, on the other hand, exhibits a lot more apparent in-cockpit motions, which "feels" more realistic to me than GP3's silky-smooth, no-muss, no-fuss "physics." FWIW, I believe that the physics in F12000 are based primarily on the tire modeling, while the physics in GP3 are based primarily on . . . er, GP2. <G> -- JB In article <[email hidden]>, Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote: > Gregor Veble wrote: > > The suspension in F1 2000 seems to have way too much travel for ahigh downforce car > > Steve Matchett commented during Spa last Sunday that current F1 cars > have suspension travel of 15-20mm! What's that, like 5/8" to 3/4"? He > was noting that going over the very rough rumble strips on thecurbing, > the front wings were deflecting far more than that. Not exactly an > off-road setup! > > BB > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

EXCELLENT link -- MANY thanks! FYI, after watching the video of the lap at Spa, I have to say that I don't think F1 2000 is all that far- off. I don't know how to explain it, but I think maybe the in-cockpit view in F1 2000 presents a better picture of the track as THE DRIVER must see it -- Spa in GP3 may "look" more like it does in TV shots like this, but, remember, those are shots taken from the roll-bar or in-car cameras, not from the driver's-eye view. That said, I think that GP3 and F1 2000 both do a pretty good job with Spa, but we're dealing with different perspectives, I think. Plus, I think that Spa (and all the other F1 tracks) in GP3 "look" better to us all because, well, we all pretty much learned those tracks playing World Circuit (GP1, that is) and GP2, and I think that pretty much every other F1 game has used Crammond's track modeling as a baseline for comparison for their tracks (not necessarily the real tracks themselves). If Crammond's tracks are the benchmark that you are going to be judged against, and if Crammond's tracks look good enough that they don't get knocked on the basis of realism, then why even study the real tracks -- Crammond's tracks will do just fine. Nothing against Crammond (or anybody who has seen the real tracks), but maybe F1 2000 does a better job than it's being given credit for. -- JB In article <4s9o5.176$[email hidden]>, "l@rs" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> You can find at complete lap with Marc Gene in Spa 1999 here: > http://www.f-1.ru/video/index_e.html > > -- > \|/ > � � > --ooo---(_)---ooo-- > > Mvh. Lars Skov Olsen > "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]... > > �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve

driven a > > lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. Idon�t no > > about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat,wide > > track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept itto do > > (with the obligatory surprises of course). > > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default whichdidn�t > > help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knowswhat it

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> > rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > > > P > > > > > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

EXCELLENT analysis, Dan -- thank you VERY much for taking the time to make the post. <SNIP>

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> 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feels > like I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm > driving a computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In > F12K, I really feel like I can throw the car around to the limit. In > GP3, as I approach the limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm > driving a beautiful PC simulation.

I think you really hit the nail on the head here -- this pretty much sums up my feelings about GP3, in fact. I had hopes that GP3 would be all that it is, PLUS have a physics model like F12K (or GPL, for that matter), and that is the source of most of my disappointment with Crammond's latest gem. Still, I'm glad to see that so many people are enjoying it. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Uhm JB, I never played GP2 and tracks still look better to me in GP3 than in F12K <grin> -Cheers <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8of7i0$rcd$[email hidden]...

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> EXCELLENT link -- MANY thanks! FYI, after watching the video of the > lap at Spa, I have to say that I don't think F1 2000 is all that far- > off. I don't know how to explain it, but I think maybe the in-cockpit > view in F1 2000 presents a better picture of the track as THE DRIVER > must see it -- Spa in GP3 may "look" more like it does in TV shots like > this, but, remember, those are shots taken from the roll-bar or in-car > cameras, not from the driver's-eye view. That said, I think that GP3 > and F1 2000 both do a pretty good job with Spa, but we're dealing with > different perspectives, I think. > > Plus, I think that Spa (and all the other F1 tracks) in GP3 "look" > better to us all because, well, we all pretty much learned those tracks > playing World Circuit (GP1, that is) and GP2, and I think that pretty > much every other F1 game has used Crammond's track modeling as a > baseline for comparison for their tracks (not necessarily the real > tracks themselves). If Crammond's tracks are the benchmark that you > are going to be judged against, and if Crammond's tracks look good > enough that they don't get knocked on the basis of realism, then why > even study the real tracks -- Crammond's tracks will do just fine. > Nothing against Crammond (or anybody who has seen the real tracks), but > maybe F1 2000 does a better job than it's being given credit for. > > -- JB > > In article <4s9o5.176$[email hidden]>, > "l@rs" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > You can find at complete lap with Marc Gene in Spa 1999 here: > > http://www.f-1.ru/video/index_e.html > > > > -- > > \|/ > > � � > > --ooo---(_)---ooo-- > > > > Mvh. Lars Skov Olsen > > "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]... > > > �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve > driven a > > > lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. I > don�t no > > > about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat, > wide > > > track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept it > to do > > > (with the obligatory surprises of course). > > > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which > didn�t > > > help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > > > > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows > what it > > > rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > > > > > P > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Uhm...How many real F1 drivers (Beside Schumacher and maybe Alesi) throw the car at the limit? Every time I see someone throw the car on the limit, they end up in a number of places: -Tyre Barriers -Gravel trap -Run-off area -Guard rail But hey, I guess we're all Schumachers and can throw the car around on the limit hten eh? -Cheers! <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8of7s4$rn1$[email hidden]...

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> EXCELLENT analysis, Dan -- thank you VERY much for taking the time to > make the post. > > <SNIP> > > > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension > > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feels > > like I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm > > driving a computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In > > F12K, I really feel like I can throw the car around to the limit. In > > GP3, as I approach the limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm > > driving a beautiful PC simulation. > > I think you really hit the nail on the head here -- this pretty much > sums up my feelings about GP3, in fact. I had hopes that GP3 would be > all that it is, PLUS have a physics model like F12K (or GPL, for that > matter), and that is the source of most of my disappointment with > Crammond's latest gem. Still, I'm glad to see that so many people are > enjoying it. > > -- JB > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

In article <gRFq5.1171$[email hidden]>, "Regular Racer" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Uhm...How many real F1 drivers (Beside Schumacher and maybe Alesi)throw the > car at the limit? Every time I see someone throw the car on thelimit, they > end up in a number of places: > -Tyre Barriers > -Gravel trap > -Run-off area > -Guard rail When Dan mentioned throwing the car around to the limit, he never said anything about staying on the track, now, did he? <G> ;-) -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Dan Blake wrote:

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> > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feels like > I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm driving a > computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In F12K, I really feel > like I can throw the car around to the limit. In GP3, as I approach the > limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm driving a beautiful PC simulation. > This is a gut feel that in large is reinforced by the FF effects and angle > of attitude as experienced in F12K when driving over curbs. What do F1 cars > do to go faster at the limit than drive over curbs? Other FF effects are a > little better in GP3. Winner F12K >

There are a few reasons contributing to this. The suspension in F1 2000 seems to have way too much travel for a high downforce car, when in reality the travel of the suspension is abut the same as the travel due to the deformations of the tire. You can throw the car around because the optimal slip angles are too large, so you can travel strongly sideways (the attitude that you mention) and still be in the normal operating regime of the tire. At the same time the inertia of the car is way too high, which means all the response times are longer than they should be, and throwing the car around is easy. It may feel great, but it's hardly realistic for an F1 car (but could be very close to some other, more docile car). Luckily, thses parameters can be tweaked, but then the AI, apart from the usual troubles it has, seems to be unable to drive the cars, and even worse, the numerical calculations become unstable for the AI as the timestep in those calculations seems to be higher than for the player car. On the other hand, if you drive GP3 really hard, you will get very lively responses. Set your differential to low, go into a slow corner and play with the throttle. If that doesn't feel (and sound!) like driving for real, nothing else does. And, if you have a steering wheel, do get rid of the speed sensitivity if you have it enabled. It really kills the feel in any sim, and can be the cause of lots of artificiality that some sims are accused of since it may give an almost digital feel to a car. -Gregor

Way ta' say it Gregor!!!!!!!! (Oh please tell this to JB too) <grin> ----I love this!!!!!!!!!!! -Cheers "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Dan Blake wrote: > > > > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension > > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feelslike > > I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm driving a > > computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In F12K, I reallyfeel > > like I can throw the car around to the limit. In GP3, as I approach the > > limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm driving a beautiful PCsimulation. > > This is a gut feel that in large is reinforced by the FF effects andangle > > of attitude as experienced in F12K when driving over curbs. What do F1cars > > do to go faster at the limit than drive over curbs? Other FF effectsare a

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> > little better in GP3. Winner F12K > > > > There are a few reasons contributing to this. The suspension in F1 2000 > seems to have way too much travel for a high downforce car, when in > reality the travel of the suspension is abut the same as the travel due > to the deformations of the tire. You can throw the car around because > the optimal slip angles are too large, so you can travel strongly > sideways (the attitude that you mention) and still be in the normal > operating regime of the tire. At the same time the inertia of the car is > way too high, which means all the response times are longer than they > should be, and throwing the car around is easy. > > It may feel great, but it's hardly realistic for an F1 car (but could be > very close to some other, more docile car). Luckily, thses parameters > can be tweaked, but then the AI, apart from the usual troubles it has, > seems to be unable to drive the cars, and even worse, the numerical > calculations become unstable for the AI as the timestep in those > calculations seems to be higher than for the player car. > > On the other hand, if you drive GP3 really hard, you will get very > lively responses. Set your differential to low, go into a slow corner > and play with the throttle. If that doesn't feel (and sound!) like > driving for real, nothing else does. > > And, if you have a steering wheel, do get rid of the speed sensitivity > if you have it enabled. It really kills the feel in any sim, and can be > the cause of lots of artificiality that some sims are accused of since > it may give an almost digital feel to a car. > > -Gregor

everyone in this thread is very strange. none of you have ever even driven a Formula One car.... so unless you have, quit telling people how the physics are... because you have no idea. "Regular Racer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:24Pq5.47$[email hidden]...

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> Way ta' say it Gregor!!!!!!!! (Oh please tell this to JB too) <grin> > > ----I love this!!!!!!!!!!! > > -Cheers > "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Dan Blake wrote: > > > > > > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension > > > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feels > like > > > I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm driving a > > > computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In F12K, I really > feel > > > like I can throw the car around to the limit. In GP3, as I approach

the > > > limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm driving a beautiful PC > simulation. > > > This is a gut feel that in large is reinforced by the FF effects and > angle > > > of attitude as experienced in F12K when driving over curbs. What doF1

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> cars > > > do to go faster at the limit than drive over curbs? Other FF effects > are a > > > little better in GP3. Winner F12K > > > > > > > There are a few reasons contributing to this. The suspension in F1 2000 > > seems to have way too much travel for a high downforce car, when in > > reality the travel of the suspension is abut the same as the travel due > > to the deformations of the tire. You can throw the car around because > > the optimal slip angles are too large, so you can travel strongly > > sideways (the attitude that you mention) and still be in the normal > > operating regime of the tire. At the same time the inertia of the car is > > way too high, which means all the response times are longer than they > > should be, and throwing the car around is easy. > > > > It may feel great, but it's hardly realistic for an F1 car (but could be > > very close to some other, more docile car). Luckily, thses parameters > > can be tweaked, but then the AI, apart from the usual troubles it has, > > seems to be unable to drive the cars, and even worse, the numerical > > calculations become unstable for the AI as the timestep in those > > calculations seems to be higher than for the player car. > > > > On the other hand, if you drive GP3 really hard, you will get very > > lively responses. Set your differential to low, go into a slow corner > > and play with the throttle. If that doesn't feel (and sound!) like > > driving for real, nothing else does. > > > > And, if you have a steering wheel, do get rid of the speed sensitivity > > if you have it enabled. It really kills the feel in any sim, and can be > > the cause of lots of artificiality that some sims are accused of since > > it may give an almost digital feel to a car. > > > > -Gregor > >

I agree with you 100% Braveheart. I'm just defending my "preferred" game. That's all. -Cheers! "Braveheart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lqRq5.27220$[email hidden]... > everyone in this thread is very strange. > none of you have ever even driven a Formula One car.... so unless youhave,

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> quit telling people how the physics are... because you have no idea. > > > > "Regular Racer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:24Pq5.47$[email hidden]... > > Way ta' say it Gregor!!!!!!!! (Oh please tell this to JB too) <grin> > > > > ----I love this!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > -Cheers > > "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Dan Blake wrote: > > > > > > > > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The

suspension > > > > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car justfeels > > like > > > > I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm driving a > > > > computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In F12K, Ireally

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> > feel > > > > like I can throw the car around to the limit. In GP3, as I approach > the > > > > limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm driving a beautiful PC > > simulation. > > > > This is a gut feel that in large is reinforced by the FF effects and > > angle > > > > of attitude as experienced in F12K when driving over curbs. What do > F1 > > cars > > > > do to go faster at the limit than drive over curbs? Other FF

effects > > are a > > > > little better in GP3. Winner F12K > > > > > > > > > > There are a few reasons contributing to this. The suspension in F12000 > > > seems to have way too much travel for a high downforce car, when in > > > reality the travel of the suspension is abut the same as the traveldue > > > to the deformations of the tire. You can throw the car around because > > > the optimal slip angles are too large, so you can travel strongly > > > sideways (the attitude that you mention) and still be in the normal > > > operating regime of the tire. At the same time the inertia of the caris > > > way too high, which means all the response times are longer than they > > > should be, and throwing the car around is easy. > > > > > > It may feel great, but it's hardly realistic for an F1 car (but couldbe

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> > > very close to some other, more docile car). Luckily, thses parameters > > > can be tweaked, but then the AI, apart from the usual troubles it has, > > > seems to be unable to drive the cars, and even worse, the numerical > > > calculations become unstable for the AI as the timestep in those > > > calculations seems to be higher than for the player car. > > > > > > On the other hand, if you drive GP3 really hard, you will get very > > > lively responses. Set your differential to low, go into a slow corner > > > and play with the throttle. If that doesn't feel (and sound!) like > > > driving for real, nothing else does. > > > > > > And, if you have a steering wheel, do get rid of the speed sensitivity > > > if you have it enabled. It really kills the feel in any sim, and can

be

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> > > the cause of lots of artificiality that some sims are accused of since > > > it may give an almost digital feel to a car. > > > > > > -Gregor > > > > > >

Gregor Veble wrote: > The suspension in F1 2000 seems to have way too much travel for a high downforce car Steve Matchett commented during Spa last Sunday that current F1 cars have suspension travel of 15-20mm! What's that, like 5/8" to 3/4"? He was noting that going over the very rough rumble strips on the curbing, the front wings were deflecting far more than that. Not exactly an off-road setup! BB

LoL...Boy all that "suspension travel/flexing" in F12K is right on the money in realism then eh? (You reading this JB?) <grin> -Cheers! "Barton Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Gregor Veble wrote: > > The suspension in F1 2000 seems to have way too much travel for a highdownforce car

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> > Steve Matchett commented during Spa last Sunday that current F1 cars > have suspension travel of 15-20mm! What's that, like 5/8" to 3/4"? He > was noting that going over the very rough rumble strips on the curbing, > the front wings were deflecting far more than that. Not exactly an > off-road setup! > > BB

Barton Brown wrote:

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> > Gregor Veble wrote: > > The suspension in F1 2000 seems to have way too much travel for a high downforce car > > Steve Matchett commented during Spa last Sunday that current F1 cars > have suspension travel of 15-20mm! What's that, like 5/8" to 3/4"? He > was noting that going over the very rough rumble strips on the curbing, > the front wings were deflecting far more than that. Not exactly an > off-road setup!

Knowing that, and the bumps on those "tracks" feeling like rollercoaster bumps, turned me completely off of F12k. If you see TV coverage in cockpit, it's a fixed camera (no adjustment through eyes and head movement), you can see almost NO bouncing of the car. This "feels" much more realistic in GP3. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

I�ve changed my opinion after a lot of driving at Spa. For the moment F12K is more FUN. Now my biggest problem with F12K-Spa is tha the course is much too black, and that�s not a big problem. No matter what - Spa is one the greatest tracks. Per Dan Blake <[email hidden]> skrev i diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:C2Bq5.199$[email hidden] tt.net... > I too spent about 4 hours comparing the two sims at Spa, my favoritetrack. > My take: > > 1) Eye candy and weather effects are better in GP3. The detail graphicsin > GP3 are quite good, similar to SBK 2000 (photo-like). However, with allof > the track updates online for F12K, this is not as much of a factor.Winner > GP3 > > 2) GP3 seems to run smoother on my system C360/550, TNT2U, Det3 194MBSDRAM. > It still is slow at the first turn, aka GP2, but never "jerks". I'vefound > a pretty good graphic setting compromise with F12K, so while not bad -just

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> a little better in GP3. Winner GP3 > > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feels like > I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm driving a > computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In F12K, I really feel > like I can throw the car around to the limit. In GP3, as I approach the > limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm driving a beautiful PC

simulation. > This is a gut feel that in large is reinforced by the FF effects and angle > of attitude as experienced in F12K when driving over curbs. What do F1cars > do to go faster at the limit than drive over curbs? Other FF effects area > little better in GP3. Winner F12K > > 4) There is little or no elevation change in GP3. Am I the only one that > notices this? Really reminds me of GP2 here. Compare the 2nd chicane at > Hockenheim, in both sims. Again, GP3 feels like you are driving a PC simon > a flat plane. And this is really evident at Spa. Winner F12K > > 5) Sound in both sims is not what it could have been. Your editingskills > will create a winner (non-loser) here. Tie > > 6) Add-ons. Really good for both, but GP3 started with a big following. > Winner GP3. > > 7) AI - GP3. Opposing drivers react more human like. No contest.Winner > GP3 > > So, neither is perfect. I'm addicted to both. It's a shame that GP3 does > not have better physics, curb use behavior, elevation changes, or that > F12K's AI is so bad. Both will stay on my hard drive. F12K when I wantto

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> "feel" like I'm driving a race car, GP3, when I want to race. > > Dan Blake > Atlanta > > > > "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WBDn5.1702$[email hidden]... > > �Tonight I made my first direct comparison of the two sims. I�ve driven

a

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> > lot of laps at Spa in both of them. For me GP3 is the winner. I don�t no > > about accuracy but in GP3 it�s a light that please me, it�s a neat, wide > > track that allows me to work and the car is doing what I exept it to do > > (with the obligatory surprises of course). > > I didn�t have a suitible setup in F12K and used the default which didn�t > > help. The F12K track was dark, murky and narrow. > > > > The Spa track is very different in the two sims. Anyone who knows what

it

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> > rally looks like and which one is most accurate? > > > > P > > > > > >

I agree with you on Spa, it is one of the best tracks. Suzuka is a close second for me and I used to love Imola before they castrated it. Another track I'm quite fond of is Elkhart Lake (Laguna Seca deserves some mention too!). I used to love hotlapping Elkhart Lake in that crummy CPR game. That was about the only good thing in that game. Michael M "Per Bostr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uIUq5.2174$[email hidden]...

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> I�ve changed my opinion after a lot of driving at Spa. For the moment F12K > is more FUN. > Now my biggest problem with F12K-Spa is tha the course is much too black, > and that�s not a big problem. > > No matter what - Spa is one the greatest tracks. > > Per

True. But, Mika does seem to let it all hang out, when he has to. I love the slowmo playbacks during qualifying. Even here in the states, Speedvision does a creditable job covering the Saturday sessions, albeit on the host country's feed. You can see the length at which these guys go to get those extra 100's of a second. To me, a casual observer, the lower downforce tracks do seem to benefit the drivers that are willing to push their cars a little further to the edge. If you look at what happened at Hockenheim and Spa in qualifying, you'd have to agree with me. The lower downforce tracks favor the late braking and sliding demons. Jarno Trulli surely gave a broadsliding curb surfing lesson to all but Mika. "Regular Racer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gRFq5.1171$[email hidden]... > Uhm...How many real F1 drivers (Beside Schumacher and maybe Alesi) throwthe > car at the limit? Every time I see someone throw the car on the limit,they

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> end up in a number of places: > -Tyre Barriers > -Gravel trap > -Run-off area > -Guard rail > > But hey, I guess we're all Schumachers and can throw the car around on the > limit hten eh? > > -Cheers! > > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8of7s4$rn1$[email hidden]... > > EXCELLENT analysis, Dan -- thank you VERY much for taking the time to > > make the post. > > > > <SNIP> > > > > > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension > > > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feels > > > like I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm > > > driving a computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In > > > F12K, I really feel like I can throw the car around to the limit. In > > > GP3, as I approach the limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm > > > driving a beautiful PC simulation. > > > > I think you really hit the nail on the head here -- this pretty much > > sums up my feelings about GP3, in fact. I had hopes that GP3 would be > > all that it is, PLUS have a physics model like F12K (or GPL, for that > > matter), and that is the source of most of my disappointment with > > Crammond's latest gem. Still, I'm glad to see that so many people are > > enjoying it. > > > > -- JB > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > >

Braveheart, Since it is unlikely that any of us will ever drive an F1 car, then we must debate what we imagine to be that experience. Therefore, I welcome any conjecture on how a Formula 1 car might behave. Maybe through our collective observations and related experiences, we can get pretty damn close. "Braveheart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lqRq5.27220$[email hidden]... > everyone in this thread is very strange. > none of you have ever even driven a Formula One car.... so unless youhave,

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> quit telling people how the physics are... because you have no idea. > > > > "Regular Racer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:24Pq5.47$[email hidden]... > > Way ta' say it Gregor!!!!!!!! (Oh please tell this to JB too) <grin> > > > > ----I love this!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > -Cheers > > "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Dan Blake wrote: > > > > > > > > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The

suspension > > > > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car justfeels > > like > > > > I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm driving a > > > > computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In F12K, Ireally

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> > feel > > > > like I can throw the car around to the limit. In GP3, as I approach > the > > > > limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm driving a beautiful PC > > simulation. > > > > This is a gut feel that in large is reinforced by the FF effects and > > angle > > > > of attitude as experienced in F12K when driving over curbs. What do > F1 > > cars > > > > do to go faster at the limit than drive over curbs? Other FF

effects > > are a > > > > little better in GP3. Winner F12K > > > > > > > > > > There are a few reasons contributing to this. The suspension in F12000 > > > seems to have way too much travel for a high downforce car, when in > > > reality the travel of the suspension is abut the same as the traveldue > > > to the deformations of the tire. You can throw the car around because > > > the optimal slip angles are too large, so you can travel strongly > > > sideways (the attitude that you mention) and still be in the normal > > > operating regime of the tire. At the same time the inertia of the caris > > > way too high, which means all the response times are longer than they > > > should be, and throwing the car around is easy. > > > > > > It may feel great, but it's hardly realistic for an F1 car (but couldbe

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> > > very close to some other, more docile car). Luckily, thses parameters > > > can be tweaked, but then the AI, apart from the usual troubles it has, > > > seems to be unable to drive the cars, and even worse, the numerical > > > calculations become unstable for the AI as the timestep in those > > > calculations seems to be higher than for the player car. > > > > > > On the other hand, if you drive GP3 really hard, you will get very > > > lively responses. Set your differential to low, go into a slow corner > > > and play with the throttle. If that doesn't feel (and sound!) like > > > driving for real, nothing else does. > > > > > > And, if you have a steering wheel, do get rid of the speed sensitivity > > > if you have it enabled. It really kills the feel in any sim, and can

be

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> > > the cause of lots of artificiality that some sims are accused of since > > > it may give an almost digital feel to a car. > > > > > > -Gregor > > > > > >

On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:36:27 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: -------------- It's easy to see F12k's suspension travel is overblown (actually it's wheel/tire travel only). GP2/GP3 got that one right. Yet the neat thing about F12k is, (as you mentioned) the driver-view "emulates"(?) what it must feel like to hit a nasty dip at 150mph. It must be a -rough- ride running a real F1 car. Tire-flex should be seen a bit though (not modeled in any sim?). Suspension movement (if it was actually hooked into the above sims) would flex maybe 20-40mm, hardly enough to notice. Again, similar to what you said, going from F12k to GP2, it feels like I'm riding on some newly-paved black-top, it's just so dang smooth. Although GP2 is still tough to keep those lap-times down, F12k is very difficult too (at least for me it is......<g>). Matt

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>Yes, the suspension on high-downforce cars tends to be stiff with >little travel, but judging from what I've seen via in-car cameras (and >experienced with mid-performance spec racers at driving schools), there >is STILL a lot of motion going on in the cockpit. That's the main >problem I have with GP3 -- it's so smooth that it feels like I'm, well, >driving a computer. F12000, on the other hand, exhibits a lot more >apparent in-cockpit motions, which "feels" more realistic to me than >GP3's silky-smooth, no-muss, no-fuss "physics."

I can't tell you exactly how an F1 car will drive, but I can tell you lots about its physics, and based on this I can also tell you when if a sim seriously deviates from what it should be in reality by performing some experiments with it. We do have engineering books (thank you Millikens :) !) and physics knowledge to tell us approximately what certain physics parameters in a sim should be, and this enables us to see when they are clearly off. On the other hand, I do know that most people simply dismiss certain arguments if they cannot understand them. So, try reading the post below again, argue with me what is wrong with it. Dismissing it with own ignorance will hardly make me consider replying to you again. -Gregor Braveheart wrote:

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> > everyone in this thread is very strange. > none of you have ever even driven a Formula One car.... so unless you have, > quit telling people how the physics are... because you have no idea. > > "Regular Racer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:24Pq5.47$[email hidden]... > > Way ta' say it Gregor!!!!!!!! (Oh please tell this to JB too) <grin> > > > > ----I love this!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > -Cheers > > "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Dan Blake wrote: > > > > > > > > 3) To me, the car physics in F12K are modeled better. The suspension > > > > compresses, the cars get at an angle on curbs, and the car just feels > > like > > > > I'm driving a car. GP3, on the other hand, feels like I'm driving a > > > > computer. This is with all aids off in both sims. In F12K, I really > > feel > > > > like I can throw the car around to the limit. In GP3, as I approach > the > > > > limit, I'm continually reminded that I'm driving a beautiful PC > > simulation. > > > > This is a gut feel that in large is reinforced by the FF effects and > > angle > > > > of attitude as experienced in F12K when driving over curbs. What do > F1 > > cars > > > > do to go faster at the limit than drive over curbs? Other FF effects > > are a > > > > little better in GP3. Winner F12K > > > > > > > > > > There are a few reasons contributing to this. The suspension in F1 2000 > > > seems to have way too much travel for a high downforce car, when in > > > reality the travel of the suspension is abut the same as the travel due > > > to the deformations of the tire. You can throw the car around because > > > the optimal slip angles are too large, so you can travel strongly > > > sideways (the attitude that you mention) and still be in the normal > > > operating regime of the tire. At the same time the inertia of the car is > > > way too high, which means all the response times are longer than they > > > should be, and throwing the car around is easy. > > > > > > It may feel great, but it's hardly realistic for an F1 car (but could be > > > very close to some other, more docile car). Luckily, thses parameters > > > can be tweaked, but then the AI, apart from the usual troubles it has, > > > seems to be unable to drive the cars, and even worse, the numerical > > > calculations become unstable for the AI as the timestep in those > > > calculations seems to be higher than for the player car. > > > > > > On the other hand, if you drive GP3 really hard, you will get very > > > lively responses. Set your differential to low, go into a slow corner > > > and play with the throttle. If that doesn't feel (and sound!) like > > > driving for real, nothing else does. > > > > > > And, if you have a steering wheel, do get rid of the speed sensitivity > > > if you have it enabled. It really kills the feel in any sim, and can be > > > the cause of lots of artificiality that some sims are accused of since > > > it may give an almost digital feel to a car. > > > > > > -Gregor > > > >

teehole wrote:

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> > Tire-flex should be seen a bit though (not modeled in any sim?). > Suspension movement (if it was actually hooked into the above sims) > would flex maybe 20-40mm, hardly enough to notice. > > Again, similar to what you said, going from F12k to GP2, it feels > like I'm riding on some newly-paved black-top, it's just so dang > smooth. Although GP2 is still tough to keep those lap-times down, F12k > is very difficult too (at least for me it is......<g>). >

Depends on what you mean by tire flex. In fact it is modelled in any sim (F1 2000, GP3, GPL and so on) that models slip angles/ratios, as the 'slip' of the tire when not yet at the limit happens mostly not due to the tire actually slipping but because the tire deforms under lateral load. If you apply lateral load to the tire while it is traveling forward the bottom part of the tire that is in contact with the road will deform and the tire will not move directly forward anymore but will 'sidestep'. The higher the load the larger the angle between the orientation of the tire and the actual direction of the travel, as long as the tire doesn't loose adhesion and really starts to slide. So, in a sense, any sim that models slip angles models tire flex as well. However, after a discussion with the West Brothers at the High Gear forums, they said they will go one step further from the simple slip angle vs. force model, modelling the transient behaviour of the tire deformation when the lateral loads are varying fast enough. Also, in F1 2000, I do believe the bumps occur between the flat tiles by which the road surface is modelled, I didn't encounter any bumps on level terrain, only when there are gradient changes, as the inclination of the track changes from one flat portion to the next. I am not really sure that is how it is (I would really need to examine again), but it did appear that way. -Gregor

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:34:19 +0200, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote: >Depends on what you mean by tire flex. In fact it is modelled in any sim >(F1 2000, GP3, GPL and so on) that models slip angles/ratios, as the >'slip' of the tire when not yet at the limit happens mostly not due to >the tire actually slipping but because the tire deforms under lateral >load. -snip- It may be modelled in sims, but I can't see any tire-flex, where a tire actually changes shape under different loads. Matt