Re: Menu nightmares...

On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:20:27 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >well Jan, what if you bumped esc and didn't want to leave the race, then the >confirmation is good. Please read again, I didn't complain about a confirmation for leaving a race! :-) >What if you came back to a track and didn't want to re-use the previous >qualifying result? There could be an additional button which only appears if there is a saved result. The normal green one would start a new event, the additional button would allow you to rejoin the last session. Finally let me quote Simon here, who put it so perfectly: >>I suppose it would be nice to be able to switch off the 'idiot boxes' >>for those players who have control of their arms the majority of the time :) >>I can't remember ever hitting escape by accident playing GPL. Nuff said. ;-) JanL

My only criticism of the GPL menu system is the navigation of the little program on the left to find your fast laps, the starting grid, the qualifying times, etc. After almost two years, I'm still just randomly clicking the left and right corners and then the directional arrows. The best thing about GPL's GUI is the replay system - the double arrow keys for incrementally speeding up and slowing down the replay, the bar you drag around to find the beginning and end of a particular lap, the way you can cut the beginning and end of a replay, the drop down box for choosing a driver, the display that shows best laps and last laps, etc. Perfect. Dave Ewing Simon Brown wrote: > GPL is over two years old now, so how come other developers don't learn from > what GPL did right? > I'm not talking about physics (etc) here, I'm talking about menus. -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

ymenard wrote:

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> > "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I've just been playing GP3 and the menus are a total nightmare. > > JLGP2, Geoff has poor GUi knowledge and didn't take a minute to think that > his menu system is flawled. He probably thought that since GP2 sold well, > than it means it was perfect.

The menus are one of the few things Geoff didn't program in GP3 (or GP2), so don't blame it on his lack of GUI knowledge, as this time it wasn't entirely his fault. -- Arne Martin

Hate having to hit ESC one last time after exiting....I don't need to see the credits for the 10,0000th time "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FBKm5.482140$[email hidden]... > well Jan, what if you bumped esc and didn't want to leave the race, thenthe

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> confirmation is good. What if you came back to a track and didn't want to > re-use the previous qualifying result? > > Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:42:14 GMT, "Simon Brown" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >The GPL menus are just a work > > >of perfection compared with everything else. Hopefully we'll see some > more > > >user-friendly simple menus in the future? > > > > Actually I think they (the GPL menus) are asking for confirmation too > > often, requiring unnecessary mouse clicks or key strokes. > > > > Yes, I want to save the qualify result when leaving the track > > prematurely. Just save it somewhere,why do I have to acknowledge > > that? > > Yes, I want to reuse the previous qualify result if I come back to the > > track. > > Yes, I want to exit the game, else I would not have hit ESC! > > And no, I don't want to see the 'outtro' every time, why don't you ask > > me to disable it? > > > > So, the menus in GPL are not really bad but they are far from > > perfection too. :-) > > > > > > JanL > >

GPL is over two years old now, so how come other developers don't learn from what GPL did right? I'm not talking about physics (etc) here, I'm talking about menus. I've just been playing GP3 and the menus are a total nightmare. I'm sure I still haven't seen some of the options screens, they are so hard to reach. Saving a hot-lap for instance, you have to press Escape (that's fair enough) followed by options (eh?) and then save. 'Save hot-lap' should be on the first list that comes up in the Escape-key list, like it was in GP2. Other bad offenders, Superbike 2000, Nascar 3, Sports Car GT, F1RS, F1 2000 (bewildering amount of options), F1WGP demo. The GPL menus are just a work of perfection compared with everything else. Hopefully we'll see some more user-friendly simple menus in the future?

I agree with with the exception of N3. GPL and N3 basically use the same menu system in my opinion...... simple and quick Thanks, Aaron Markham *Kart44* --------------------------------------- Inaugural Talladega Tournament 2000 Champion #54 FSSRL Online Series www.fssrl.com #41 RTOS Online Series http://208.245.164.150/Racing-Thunder/index.shtml Weekly Competitor at www.ameliamotorraceway.com "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GxGm5.1850$[email hidden]... > GPL is over two years old now, so how come other developers don't learnfrom > what GPL did right? > I'm not talking about physics (etc) here, I'm talking about menus. > > I've just been playing GP3 and the menus are a total nightmare. I'm sureI > still haven't seen some of the options screens, they are so hard to reach. > Saving a hot-lap for instance, you have to press Escape (that's fairenough) > followed by options (eh?) and then save. 'Save hot-lap' should be on the > first list that comes up in the Escape-key list, like it was in GP2. > > Other bad offenders, Superbike 2000, Nascar 3, Sports Car GT, F1RS, F12000 > (bewildering amount of options), F1WGP demo. The GPL menus are just awork > of perfection compared with everything else. Hopefully we'll see somemore > user-friendly simple menus in the future? > >

"Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote > I've just been playing GP3 and the menus are a total nightmare. JLGP2, Geoff has poor GUi knowledge and didn't take a minute to think that his menu system is flawled. He probably thought that since GP2 sold well, than it means it was perfect. > Nascar 3 It's the same, same thing as the GPL structure Simon. Main menu ---> Single race ---> All the gameplay options ---> Championship --> Championship options ---> Multiplayer ---> Driver Info ---> Options ---> Same 3 sub-menus as GPL ---> Exit -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Have you taken a look at NASCAR Heat? It has a pretty functional menu that is easy to use. Only a few items that seem misplaced (ie. the settings menu which I think should be at the front and not once you are into a race mode) Simon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GxGm5.1850$[email hidden]... > GPL is over two years old now, so how come other developers don't learnfrom > what GPL did right? > I'm not talking about physics (etc) here, I'm talking about menus. > > I've just been playing GP3 and the menus are a total nightmare. I'm sureI > still haven't seen some of the options screens, they are so hard to reach. > Saving a hot-lap for instance, you have to press Escape (that's fairenough) > followed by options (eh?) and then save. 'Save hot-lap' should be on the > first list that comes up in the Escape-key list, like it was in GP2. > > Other bad offenders, Superbike 2000, Nascar 3, Sports Car GT, F1RS, F12000 > (bewildering amount of options), F1WGP demo. The GPL menus are just awork > of perfection compared with everything else. Hopefully we'll see somemore > user-friendly simple menus in the future? > >

On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:42:14 GMT, "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The GPL menus are just a work >of perfection compared with everything else. Hopefully we'll see some more >user-friendly simple menus in the future? Actually I think they (the GPL menus) are asking for confirmation too often, requiring unnecessary mouse clicks or key strokes. Yes, I want to save the qualify result when leaving the track prematurely. Just save it somewhere,why do I have to acknowledge that? Yes, I want to reuse the previous qualify result if I come back to the track. Yes, I want to exit the game, else I would not have hit ESC! And no, I don't want to see the 'outtro' every time, why don't you ask me to disable it? So, the menus in GPL are not really bad but they are far from perfection too. :-) JanL

well Jan, what if you bumped esc and didn't want to leave the race, then the confirmation is good. What if you came back to a track and didn't want to re-use the previous qualifying result? Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:42:14 GMT, "Simon Brown" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >The GPL menus are just a work > >of perfection compared with everything else. Hopefully we'll see somemore

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> >user-friendly simple menus in the future? > > Actually I think they (the GPL menus) are asking for confirmation too > often, requiring unnecessary mouse clicks or key strokes. > > Yes, I want to save the qualify result when leaving the track > prematurely. Just save it somewhere,why do I have to acknowledge > that? > Yes, I want to reuse the previous qualify result if I come back to the > track. > Yes, I want to exit the game, else I would not have hit ESC! > And no, I don't want to see the 'outtro' every time, why don't you ask > me to disable it? > > So, the menus in GPL are not really bad but they are far from > perfection too. :-) > > > JanL

Yeah, it's one of those Surplus blokes who did the GP series menus. I still can't believe Norman Surplus is a real name :) "Arne Martin Guettler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> ymenard wrote: > > than it means it was perfect. > > The menus are one of the few things Geoff didn't program in GP3 (or > GP2), so don't blame it on his lack of GUI knowledge, as this time it > wasn't entirely his fault. > > -- > Arne Martin

True. I suppose it would be nice to be able to switch off the 'idiot boxes' for those players who have control of their arms the majority of the time :) I can't remember ever hitting escape by accident playing GPL. What they should have for the easily frustrated player is instead of 'Are you sure?' - Yes / No it should be 'Are you sure?' - Yes, God Dammit! / No :) "Jan Loebzien" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Actually I think they (the GPL menus) are asking for confirmation too > often, requiring unnecessary mouse clicks or key strokes. > > Yes, I want to save the qualify result when leaving the track > prematurely. Just save it somewhere,why do I have to acknowledge > that? > Yes, I want to reuse the previous qualify result if I come back to the > track. > Yes, I want to exit the game, else I would not have hit ESC! > And no, I don't want to see the 'outtro' every time, why don't you ask > me to disable it? > > So, the menus in GPL are not really bad but they are far from > perfection too. :-) > > > JanL

"Arne Martin Guettler" <[email hidden]> wrote > The menus are one of the few things Geoff didn't program in GP3 (or > GP2), so don't blame it on his lack of GUI knowledge, as this time it > wasn't entirely his fault. Arne, the menu system dates back to F1GP. So yes, it's mostly his idea and his implementation. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Yeah? One of our regular customers is a Mrs. Posthumous! No kidding! J. P. Hovercraft Simon Brown wrote:

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> Yeah, it's one of those Surplus blokes who did the GP series menus. > I still can't believe Norman Surplus is a real name :) > > "Arne Martin Guettler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > ymenard wrote: > > > than it means it was perfect. > > > > The menus are one of the few things Geoff didn't program in GP3 (or > > GP2), so don't blame it on his lack of GUI knowledge, as this time it > > wasn't entirely his fault. > > > > -- > > Arne Martin

ymenard wrote:

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> > "Arne Martin Guettler" <[email hidden]> wrote > > The menus are one of the few things Geoff didn't program in GP3 (or > > GP2), so don't blame it on his lack of GUI knowledge, as this time it > > wasn't entirely his fault. > > Arne, the menu system dates back to F1GP. So yes, it's mostly his idea and > his implementation.

Yepp, don't fix something that's only mildly broken. I don't know how many times I said very bad words when clicking through all 45 tracks in GPL to get to the one I want to drive. New is not always better...the menus in ICR2 and N2 were WAY better than the clicky stuff Papy offers now. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:07:05 +0200, Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >Actually I think they (the GPL menus) are asking for confirmation too >often, requiring unnecessary mouse clicks or key strokes. > >Yes, I want to save the qualify result when leaving the track >prematurely. Just save it somewhere,why do I have to acknowledge >that?

OK >Yes, I want to reuse the previous qualify result if I come back to the >track. Not always. Mostely I prefer a fresh start with whatever car and AI-number I chose right before. >Yes, I want to exit the game, else I would not have hit ESC! >And no, I don't want to see the 'outtro' every time, why don't you ask >me to disable it? OK, but I already got used to the series of esc and return keystrokes when leaving. > >So, the menus in GPL are not really bad but they are far from >perfection too. :-) > > >JanL One thing I miss most is to get the <no> button with the esc-key or at least change active position by using keybord-arrows JensSchumi --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ GPLRank: -1,69

"Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: >GPL is over two years old now, so how come other developers don't learn from >what GPL did right? >I'm not talking about physics (etc) here, I'm talking about menus. It's annoying isn't it? GUI design isn't rocket science, it just takes time, attention, and someone with a bit of training in the field. Nascar Hea is a great example of a GU done right. I agree about GP3, it has one of the absolute worst GUI's I've seen in years. Joe McGinn _____________________ Radical Entertainment

Stephen Ferguson wrote:

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> > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:09:37 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" > > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > > > > > >GPL drives me batty flipping through track screens. ICR2 was great once > you > > >memorized the keystrokes. I could load a setup and be on the track with > my > > >eyes closed (I opened them for racing, though...) > > > > I was always forgetting the key command to turn off the controller and > > the menues in ICR would scroll by themselves if it had lost > > calibration.Then I would have to try and time it to hit the enter key > > on exit.Used to really annoy me sometimes. I like the mousable menus > > myself. > > Good point. I guess I am a throwback to the old DOS era... I still prefer > doing a lot of my file handling tasks in a DOS window. Still, as long as my > controller wasn't bugging out (which it rarely did) I knew that my magic > setup was only a few keystrokes away.

It doesn't have anything to do with old DOS. Any good GUI has to have keyboard control to enable users to be quick with often used functions. Once you know how to open a new Netscape window using Ctrl+N, you'll never use the mouse again for that function. Some really bad things in GP3: some menus let you go back one level with Escape, some don't! Using up and down arrows doesn't let you wrap around the menu (from first to last entry), you have to go down all the way. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

In article <[email hidden]>, Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> writes: >Yepp, don't fix something that's only mildly broken. I don't know how >many >times I said very bad words when clicking through all 45 tracks in GPL >to >get to the one I want to drive. Yeah, that DOES suck. It cries out for a 'drop-down' menu, but it works fine for the 11 tracks that were included... eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:09:37 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > > >GPL drives me batty flipping through track screens. ICR2 was great onceyou > >memorized the keystrokes. I could load a setup and be on the track withmy

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> >eyes closed (I opened them for racing, though...) > > I was always forgetting the key command to turn off the controller and > the menues in ICR would scroll by themselves if it had lost > calibration.Then I would have to try and time it to hit the enter key > on exit.Used to really annoy me sometimes. I like the mousable menus > myself.

Good point. I guess I am a throwback to the old DOS era... I still prefer doing a lot of my file handling tasks in a DOS window. Still, as long as my controller wasn't bugging out (which it rarely did) I knew that my magic setup was only a few keystrokes away. Stephen

Stephen Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:39a11263$[email hidden]...

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> > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:09:37 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" > > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > > > > > >GPL drives me batty flipping through track screens. ICR2 was great

once > you > > >memorized the keystrokes. I could load a setup and be on the trackwith

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> my > > >eyes closed (I opened them for racing, though...) > > > > I was always forgetting the key command to turn off the controller and > > the menues in ICR would scroll by themselves if it had lost > > calibration.Then I would have to try and time it to hit the enter key > > on exit.Used to really annoy me sometimes. I like the mousable menus > > myself. > > Good point. I guess I am a throwback to the old DOS era... I still prefer > doing a lot of my file handling tasks in a DOS window. Still, as long as

my > controller wasn't bugging out (which it rarely did) I knew that my magic > setup was only a few keystrokes away. > > Stephen > But of course, if I wanted to *change* something rather than just load a setup, then the ICR2 garage menu was a disaster. The single, clickable setup sheet in newer sims is great. Stephen

A voice of reason. Just because it doesn't look all Electronic-Arts-cutesy, with mouse clicks everywhere, doesn't mean it is not functional. There are some goofs, of course, like burying the mph/kph in a utilities menu, and the steering lock in the controller, but it is still lightning fast for getting into a race. GPL drives me batty flipping through track screens. ICR2 was great once you memorized the keystrokes. I could load a setup and be on the track with my eyes closed (I opened them for racing, though...) Stephen Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> ymenard wrote: > > > > "Arne Martin Guettler" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > The menus are one of the few things Geoff didn't program in GP3 (or > > > GP2), so don't blame it on his lack of GUI knowledge, as this time it > > > wasn't entirely his fault. > > > > Arne, the menu system dates back to F1GP. So yes, it's mostly his idea

and

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> > his implementation. > > Yepp, don't fix something that's only mildly broken. I don't know how > many > times I said very bad words when clicking through all 45 tracks in GPL > to > get to the one I want to drive. New is not always better...the menus in > ICR2 and N2 were WAY better than the clicky stuff Papy offers now. > > -- > l8er > ronny > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > to take effect. Reboot now? > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:09:37 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >GPL drives me batty flipping through track screens. ICR2 was great once you >memorized the keystrokes. I could load a setup and be on the track with my >eyes closed (I opened them for racing, though...) I was always forgetting the key command to turn off the controller and the menues in ICR would scroll by themselves if it had lost calibration.Then I would have to try and time it to hit the enter key on exit.Used to really annoy me sometimes. I like the mousable menus myself. -- Nos