Re: if the best sim would be release tomorrow...

<yawn> Huh? What's that? Sorry, I must have dozed off. In article <8m2ccd$5gqgo$[email hidden]>, "Alexander Marx" <[email hidden]> wrote: > people in this group would be bashing it, claiming it was not asrealistic > as GPL and that the graphics weren't filtered enough and not runningat a > high enough framerate. > > I guess you could give those people the chance to drive in a real F1car on > a real circuit and the would claim afterwared that it was not asrealistic > as GPL and the graphics aren't filtered enough and not running at ahigh > enough framerate..... > > In fact, one of the best sims ever got actually released on July28th... > > --- > Alexander Marx > mailo:[email hidden] > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Yes thats the absolute truth...*one* of the best sims got released July 28th....the only problem is we are greedy. We wanted it to blow GPL out of the water.....and it sadly it wasnt a leap but a little bunny hop. Sorry but bunny hops coming from a sim that sold so well the second time (GP2) are mildly insulting. What didnt he make enough money the second time to afford a better 3D engine the third time...? And whats with the not being able to have my throttle and brake on a separate axis...that absolutely essential....exactly how does one trail brake..without that...? Its one of the great sims....only because there are so few. To me F1-2000 is at least its equal....GPL is well Im very very passionate about GPL. Why...? I read something in a neat little book the other day about software. "Inmates are running the asylum" 1. Software that fufills a need is certainly gonna be bought...but never loved. 2. Software that fufills a desire will be bought and loved... GP3 fits the first description for me....if fufills the need to have a Modern F1 simulation. I wished it would fufill my desires though so I could be as passionate about it as I am about GPL PAPA DOC

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> >In fact, one of the best sims ever got actually released on July 28th... > >--- >Alexander Marx >mailo:[email hidden] > > > >

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 2 shootout... Flanker Target GPL Crash Dummy Video Card Wizard www.papadoc.net FALCON 4 Benchmarks Rants, Bullshit and Reviews

In article <8m3285$5n971$[email hidden]>, "Alexander Marx" <[email hidden]> writes: >once again sorry if you feel offended, but it is the attitude - shown in >most Rsim web forums and that is dominant here in RAS - towards GP3 that is >starting to make me sick. I know that gaming magazines don't have a clue >about racing simulations, but still 90-100% ratings must point to something >special, and not the "biggest pile of goo" or "the worst crap ever". Dude, you're entitled to like the game. However, if most Rsim web forums and most people in r.a.s. say GP3 isn't up to par, shouldn't that tell you something? These are people who basically play every racing game they can get their hands on. Shouldn't their opinions be pretty accurate? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +59.33 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <3984cc49.10908044@news>, [email hidden] (Aly) writes: >There is no way that you can call GP3 a "sim" when you can lose both >the front and rear wings in an accident and still post fast lap times >without any ill effect from the lost wings. GP3 is an arcade game >dressed up like a sim. Even GP2 would let you feel the effects of a lost wing... He took that OUT??? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +59.33 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <3984cc49.10908044@news>, [email hidden] says...

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> On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:01:12 +0200, "Alexander Marx" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >In fact, one of the best sims ever got actually released on July 28th... > > > > Correction - one of the best "arcade" F1 games was released on July > 28th. > > There is no way that you can call GP3 a "sim" when you can lose both > the front and rear wings in an accident and still post fast lap times > without any ill effect from the lost wings. GP3 is an arcade game > dressed up like a sim.

Worse than that, I lost the left front wheel at Monaco and continued at virtually unabated speed! No spins, no understeer! And another thing - when you hit a kerb, the whole car goes up, instead of tilting. - Michael

Simon Brown <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: i%ih5.1124$[email hidden]... > You are so wrong. I desperately wanted GP3 to be fantastic and to set new > levels of realism, and I'm gutted that it didn't. I would have been justas > dissapointed in GP3 if Grand Prix Legends had never existed. > When GP2 came out it was state-of-the-art, just about the most realistic > best looking racing game/sim you could get. It is this that GP3 hasfailed > to live up to. But GP3 is the best game, that simulate the modern F1. > The general disappointment over GP3 here, is reflected on GP3 andsim-racing > forums everywhere. And please don't assume that everyone here who hasever > played GPL has exactly the same opinion. That should be normal in a diskussion-group. cu Ren� -- http://www.gpl-motorhome.de <-- GPL-Motorhome

you are just begging to get flamed. But I have said pretty much the same thing numerous times. This is a newsgroup with a few diehard GPL extremist fans who post alot of negative messages about anything new, although some of them I suspect just like getting in a good provocative dig to promote some debate for the sake of conversation.

people in this group would be bashing it, claiming it was not as realistic as GPL and that the graphics weren't filtered enough and not running at a high enough framerate. I guess you could give those people the chance to drive in a real F1 car on a real circuit and the would claim afterwared that it was not as realistic as GPL and the graphics aren't filtered enough and not running at a high enough framerate..... In fact, one of the best sims ever got actually released on July 28th... --- Alexander Marx mailo:[email hidden]

I hate it when... - people include me in a sweeping generalisation. - and insult my intelligence in the process. If the perfect sim (or even just a good groundbreaking one) were released tomorrow I would say: "The King is dead, long live the King!!" and continue to judge every new arrival to this "new" benchmark, while keeping a fond memory of the current top dog (GPL, no question <g>). I'm sure a lot of the "GP3 bashers" would do the same. Although GPL keeps on rewarding for the effort one puts into it, variety is the spice of life after all. Please note I'm not dumb enough to keep trying to convince the masses GP3 is riding on the Crammond name alone (i.e. there is not enough content worthy of the label) as some are so blinkered there's just no getting through except allowing them to run "head first into the wall themselves" (poorly translated local saying, sorry). -Why waste my time discussing a game I don't like while I could be having fun driving something else instead? Except of course when someone decides to include me in the butt end of his rant just for observing higher standards when it comes to what gets installed on my PC and sharing this opinion on the designated forum. Jan. =--- Alexander Marx wrote... > people in this group would be bashing it <snip>

> - people include me in a sweeping generalisation. not intendet, meant "some people" - the GP3 bashers. once again sorry if you feel offended, but it is the attitude - shown in most Rsim web forums and that is dominant here in RAS - towards GP3 that is starting to make me sick. I know that gaming magazines don't have a clue about racing simulations, but still 90-100% ratings must point to something special, and not the "biggest pile of goo" or "the worst crap ever". I also would rate GP3 highly, and I am sure the rest of the sim world would - if GPL hadn't been released two years ago. But you can't really compare those two, however, because they're so different. GP3 is pretty close to GPL in the physics department and superiour in other areas, like graphics, pitstops, tire wear, weather. Those "Gp3 - worst graphics ever" posts are totally ridiculous, what I see on my Monitor are the best anmd most detailed graphics I have ever seen in a serious racing simulation, while they are running absolutely smooth with a full field of AIs, especially compared to F1-2000, which still crawls along on my Celeron machine with Voodoo3. Don't tell me everyone has a Athlon 1 GHz with Voodoo5 and you expect a game that is more than 2 years in development to support it and drive it to the limit. I am driving split axis without problems, and there is a patch annuounced wich will add split axis for other wheels too. The driving in GP3 "feels" much more like a F1 "like you can see it live", not like a "F1 like you see it on TV" simulation (for example F1 '99, F1WGP, MGPRS2). It is not easy to beat either. Many have been looking for a good modern F1 simulation that gives you the possibility to be part of a race weekend and have been let down by F1-2K (because of poor tracks and bad AI drivers, and becaues it won't run well on their machines) and F1WG (don't call GP3 "arcade" until you've played this one) - GP3 is what they're looking for, if they manage to avoid or ignore the so called "reviews" in RAS and buy it anyway. rant over... I will try to stay quiet for a while.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:01:12 +0200, "Alexander Marx" <[email hidden]> wrote: >In fact, one of the best sims ever got actually released on July 28th... > Correction - one of the best "arcade" F1 games was released on July 28th. There is no way that you can call GP3 a "sim" when you can lose both the front and rear wings in an accident and still post fast lap times without any ill effect from the lost wings. GP3 is an arcade game dressed up like a sim.

You are so wrong. I desperately wanted GP3 to be fantastic and to set new levels of realism, and I'm gutted that it didn't. I would have been just as dissapointed in GP3 if Grand Prix Legends had never existed. When GP2 came out it was state-of-the-art, just about the most realistic best looking racing game/sim you could get. It is this that GP3 has failed to live up to. The general disappointment over GP3 here, is reflected on GP3 and sim-racing forums everywhere. And please don't assume that everyone here who has ever played GPL has exactly the same opinion. "Alexander Marx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8m2ccd$5gqgo$[email hidden]... > people in this group would be bashing it, claiming it was not as realistic > as GPL and that the graphics weren't filtered enough and not running at a > high enough framerate. > > I guess you could give those people the chance to drive in a real F1 caron

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> a real circuit and the would claim afterwared that it was not as realistic > as GPL and the graphics aren't filtered enough and not running at a high > enough framerate..... > > In fact, one of the best sims ever got actually released on July 28th... > > --- > Alexander Marx > mailo:[email hidden] > > > >

Excellent Post Jan. Thank you. My thoughts exactly

You are so wrong. I desperately wanted GP3 to be fantastic and to set new levels of realism, and I'm gutted that it didn't. I would have been just as dissapointed in GP3 if Grand Prix Legends had never existed. When GP2 came out it was state-of-the-art, just about the most realistic best looking racing game/sim you could get. It is this that GP3 has failed to live up to. The general disappointment over GP3 here, is reflected on GP3 and sim-racing forums everywhere. And please don't assume that everyone here who has ever played GPL has exactly the same opinion. "Alexander Marx" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8m2ccd$5gqgo$[email hidden]... > people in this group would be bashing it, claiming it was not as realistic > as GPL and that the graphics weren't filtered enough and not running at a > high enough framerate. > > I guess you could give those people the chance to drive in a real F1 caron

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> a real circuit and the would claim afterwared that it was not as realistic > as GPL and the graphics aren't filtered enough and not running at a high > enough framerate..... > > In fact, one of the best sims ever got actually released on July 28th... > > --- > Alexander Marx > mailo:[email hidden]

In article <8m2ccd$5gqgo$[email hidden]>, Alexander Marx <[email hidden]> writes

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>people in this group would be bashing it, claiming it was not as realistic >as GPL and that the graphics weren't filtered enough and not running at a >high enough framerate. > >I guess you could give those people the chance to drive in a real F1 car on >a real circuit and the would claim afterwared that it was not as realistic >as GPL and the graphics aren't filtered enough and not running at a high >enough framerate..... > >In fact, one of the best sims ever got actually released on July 28th... > >--- >Alexander Marx >mailo:[email hidden] >

Are you happy with GP3? Fine, then go and enjoy it without worrying about what other people think. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Yep. I was about to reply as well but Jan summed it up nicely... MS "Dean Williams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AI7h5.16136$[email hidden]... > Excellent Post Jan. Thank you. My thoughts exactly > >

Jan Verschueren wrote :

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> I hate it when... > > - people include me in a sweeping generalisation. > > - and insult my intelligence in the process. > > If the perfect sim (or even just a good groundbreaking one) were released > tomorrow I would say: "The King is dead, long live the King!!" and

continue > to judge every new arrival to this "new" benchmark, while keeping a fond > memory of the current top dog (GPL, no question <g>). I'm sure a lot ofthe > "GP3 bashers" would do the same. Although GPL keeps on rewarding for the > effort one puts into it, variety is the spice of life after all. > > Please note I'm not dumb enough to keep trying to convince the masses GP3is

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> riding on the Crammond name alone (i.e. there is not enough content worthy > of the label) as some are so blinkered there's just no getting through > except allowing them to run "head first into the wall themselves" (poorly > translated local saying, sorry). -Why waste my time discussing a game I > don't like while I could be having fun driving something else instead? > > Except of course when someone decides to include me in the butt end of his > rant just for observing higher standards when it comes to what gets > installed on my PC and sharing this opinion on the designated forum. > > Jan.

You know, Jan, I too hate it when... - people include me in a sweeping generalization. - and insult my intelligence in the process. If the perfect sim (or even just a good groundbreaking one) were released tomorrow I would say: "The King is dead, long live the King!!" and continue to judge every new arrival to this "new" benchmark, while keeping a fond memory of the current top dogs (GP3, CPR, and GPL, no question <g>). I'm sure a lot of the "GP3 bashers" would do the same. Although GP3, CPR, and GPL keep on rewarding for the effort one puts into it, variety is the spice of life after all. Please note I'm not dumb enough to keep trying to convince the masses GP3 is most realistic race driving experience they can get on their computers as some are so blinkered there's just no getting through. -Why waste my time discussing a game I love when I could be having fun driving it instead? Except of course when someone decides to include me in the butt end of his rant just for observing higher standards when it comes to what gets installed on my PC and sharing this opinion on the designated forum. I know how much you've wanted to slag this game and there are some bits that need a good slagging. But it's much, much better than you give it credit for. GPL is fun and the physics are what they are and the sound reeks and the online is great and the perspective is hideous. It is what it is. It does not feel like a racing car on a racing track. It's something different. GPL makes you learn it's rules in order to drive it. In GP3 you can use real world technique to drive the computer car. Does that mean GP3 is more of a sim than GPL? I wouldn't even dare to answer that question outside this group much less in it. But some people, my self included, are overjoyed at the experience we are having. Some of us will post silly things in our glee. I've noticed that almost all of us make sweeping generalizations when talking about sims. I've also noticed that there are far more positive responses to GP3 here than the 5 or 6 people who are trying to out post the GP3'ers. I think you need to reinstall that thing and pretend it's 'GPL2 - The 1998 Season' for another week. The physics are absolutely wonderful, comparing GPL to it only serves to show GPL's weaknesses. (And Vice/Verse.) Times are a changin'. If GP3 has fallen short, I can't wait for WSC. (I believe WSC will be the one, just for the record.) Mark.

Mark Jeangerard wrote... > <nice paraphrase snipped>. > I know how much you've wanted to slag this game and there > are some bits that need a good slagging. But it's much, > much better than you give it credit for. Really? -You mentioned this bias on the Vegeserver too and I don't know where you got that from. It's true I have been shouting I've lost faith in Crammond since the day the GPL aplpha demo was leaked, but that doesn't mean I *want* a racing sim to be terrible, whether it's by Crammond or not. Besides, the game can't help being what it is. One needs to get through to the man behind it. Which is why it's all the more unfortunate, IMO, as this specimen is hailed as "the last word" in racing sim developers. I'm pretty sure if GP3 had been an MS game (like CPR), there wouldn't have been the discussion on this group we've seen. Larry Hawes posted regarding taking posts about games personal... posts against GP3 act on two levels. Not only is the reader insulted, but the post it's also considered blasphemous which triggers more extreme reactions. It's true I've been saying all along I doubted whether he would be able to make a worthy successor to his own game, but, again, that doesn't mean I *wanted* GP3 to be the way it is. It also doesn't mean I slam everything that isn't GPL, you know damn well I have been highly complementary on several games in the time between the two releases in question.

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> GPL is fun and the physics are what they are and the > sound reeks and the online is great and the perspective > is hideous. It is what it is. It does not feel like a > racing car on a racing track. It's something different. > GPL makes you learn it's rules in order to drive it. > In GP3 you can use real world technique to drive the > computer car.

Strange, to me it's just the other way round. I'd be very amazed at this had not other RL racers commented likewise. I can not begin to fathom what exactly in the physics / FF it is you people pick up on. Maybe it's just you don't let some of the major "this is physically impossible"-aspects break your sense of disbelief. You mentioned CPR... the physics in this game are not bad at all and I was totally "convinced" when I drove it with my Nascar Pro when it first surfaced. Having recently gone back to it (now with FF), the lapses in the implenentation killed the sense of being there instantly for me, which I found very saddening. You seem still as engrossed as you were back in the days, so whattaya think? -Am I on to something? Although I can understand your (and Greg's) frustration with the GPL cockpit view, I find it limits me less and less. I did take a hell of a lot of practise to adapt, though, so the appreciation of whether such an effort is worthwhile or not must depend on the individual. Anyway, there's much more to go on with reference to this stuff in your Vegeserver post, so I suggest we continue the discussion there. > Does that mean GP3 is more of a sim than GPL? > I wouldn't even dare to answer that question > outside this group much less in it. It's a bogus question... there's always the physics vs atmosphere thing. Like with any sim it's the quality of the illusion that counts. I may have my opinions on how best to acchieve that, but ultimately I don't care as long as it's acchieved. My main gripe with GP3 is the lack of technical advancement and the non-commitment to fix issues pointed out in the GP2 era (and even the ones who didn't grow tired of GP2 pointed out most of those). I'm sure I could get into to it, but I know I'm going to run up against the same things which drove me up the wall with GP2. A lenght which I'm not prepared to go to, in view of all that has happened in the 4 years since that one's release.

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> But some people, my self included, are overjoyed at the > experience we are having. Some of us will post silly > things in our glee. I've noticed that almost all of us > make sweeping generalizations when talking about sims. > I've also noticed that there are far more positive > responses to GP3 here than the 5 or 6 people who are > trying to out post the GP3'ers.

GP3 has a much larger potential audience, so it's only logical it gets more posts. I am mildly surprised at the "tenure" exhibited by some of the posters. Like I said, there's just no arguing in most cases. I make an exception for you as I'm sure it's the game, not "the cult" driving your comments. > I think you need to reinstall that thing and pretend it's > 'GPL2 - The 1998 Season' for another week. Sorry, my imagination, already severely limited by my chosen profession (or was that the other way 'round ;-)), is just not that strong. > The physics are absolutely wonderful, comparing GPL to it only serves to > show GPL's weaknesses (and Vice/Versa). Eh, right. I will require more info on that. Stay stuned to the F2 ng. > Times are a changin'. If GP3 has fallen short, I can't > wait for WSC. (I believe WSC will be the one, just for > the record.) From what I've read I'm also pretty sure WSC will become the new benchmark. If the West brothers can continue to chase their ideas for WSC, they're onto a winner. Jan. =---

Missed this one first time round... lemme get back to you. ;-)) You do know you've been hanging around Jim too long, don't you? <g> Jan. =--- Mark Jeangerard wrote... > > You know, Jan, I too hate it when... > <snip>