Re: DN why do u sell your converters?

>Dave? Dave's not here, man. No!! I'M Dave, man!! Now, hurry up and open the door. I think the cops saw me come in here.

We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. Jason Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Dave? Dave's not here, man.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. Dave? Dave's not here, man.

no man! I am dave! "AndrewS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KwMc5.2624$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > Dave? Dave's not here, man. > > >

My guess is that Todd hit it, to make money. And I have more than gotten my money's worth of enjoyment from the converter. And what the heck are you talking about, "the one thing he does"? There is a free demo of the converter and then there is Brands Hatch, O-ring and Imola et al. I think all done by Mr. Noonan and provided free to the gpl world. Hope you and jason will go off in search of another windmill. In article <7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]>, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'dat least > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,and then > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea howmuch

Quoted text (7 lines)

> time it really takes him. > > I'd just like to know. > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I

mean I > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have thembut

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > Jason > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

What you want is of no importance and why Dave sells his converters is none of your business. Is that clear? Jan. ;-) =--- <[email hidden]> wrote... > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > Jason

And is it your business? NO! I want answers. In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: > What you want is of no importance and why Dave sells his convertersis none > of your business. Is that clear? > > Jan. ;-) > =--- > <[email hidden]> wrote... > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? Imean I > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have thembut > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > Jason > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

PHendrix27 wrote: > > >Dave? Dave's not here, man. > > No!! I'M Dave, man!! Now, hurry up and open the door. I think the cops saw > me come in here. No, I'm Dave, and so is my wife! -- Arne Martin

On Mon 17 Jul 2000 11:53:27pm, [email hidden] wrote: >We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? Well I'm not Mr Noonan, but I am a Dave, so I'll have a go at answering. I'd guess that DN considers that the amount of work he's put in to his program is such that it's reasonable to expect people to pay for it. Obviously we'd all love it if it were free, but I really don't think the cost is excessive, and he's entirely within his rights, both legally and morally, to do what he does. >I mean I know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I >have them but I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Business licence? Why does he need that? He's selling as a sole trader, not a limited company. How he handles his income is between him and the Inland Revenue. -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +8.85) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

It's a simple concept. Supply and demand. Dave supplies the only converter in town. If you want it, then you buy it. Last time I checked, no one was holding a gun to anyone's head. If you prefer to support only those who produce their add-ons for free, then by all means do it. I am not saying if it is right or wrong to charge for the converter. Noonan has made a decision that the time he spent on the converter was worth something to him, and so he would like to earn some money. He has also released free add-ons. Others have decided that their work is a simple matter of passion for the sim, or a fun hobby, and have decided to give it away for free. Why does everyone suddenly want to bully Dave Noonan to force their values onto him? How do we know he uses any software tools other than his own? Stephen "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd atleast > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, andthen

Quoted text (19 lines)

> charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how much > time it really takes him. > > I'd just like to know. > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > Jason > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > >

In article <KwMc5.2624$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote... > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > Dave? Dave's not here, man. It's Dave man, I've got the stuff!

"AndrewS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KwMc5.2624$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > Dave? Dave's not here, man. > >

There's one in every crowd.

Explain yourself here JV. I'm having a comprehension problem here <G> MS "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > What you want is of no importance and why Dave sells his converters isnone

Quoted text (13 lines)

> of your business. Is that clear? > > Jan. ;-) > =--- > <[email hidden]> wrote... > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > Jason > >

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Just a thought. Is Sierra in this for fun? Is Microprose in this for fun? Is EA in this for fun? Is Ubisoft in this for fun? Is Codemasters in this for fun? Is the multitude of other professional programmers and software houses in this for fun? Did you know that Dave is a professional programmer? Since when does somebody need a licence to sell one of their creations? Here in the UK you can trade as a sole trader without any restrictions on you at all provided the tax man is kept happy. I happen to know that Mr Noonan is a UK resident. Please I only > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. So find his email address. This is a public forum and any post here in the public domain is open to comment by anybody. MS

Arne Martin wrote: > No, I'm Dave, and so is my wife! Errrmm.... nah. Don't think I wanna *go* there! <g> -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:26:50 +0100, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (29 lines)

><[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... >> We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I >> know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but >> I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? > > >Just a thought. > >Is Sierra in this for fun? >Is Microprose in this for fun? >Is EA in this for fun? >Is Ubisoft in this for fun? >Is Codemasters in this for fun? > >Is the multitude of other professional programmers and software houses in >this for fun? >Did you know that Dave is a professional programmer? > >Since when does somebody need a licence to sell one of their creations? Here >in the UK you can trade as a sole trader without any restrictions on you at >all provided the tax man is kept happy. I happen to know that Mr Noonan is a >UK resident. > >Please I only >> want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > >So find his email address. This is a public forum and any post here in the >public domain is open to comment by anybody.

Actually I don't know about your Copyright Laws, but here this is NOT Public Domain > > >MS > >

Gee, my guess is he sells it because he wants to make money. -- Todd S. "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon 17 Jul 2000 11:53:27pm, [email hidden] wrote: > > >We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? > > Well I'm not Mr Noonan, but I am a Dave, so I'll have a go at > answering. I'd guess that DN considers that the amount of work he's put > in to his program is such that it's reasonable to expect people to pay > for it. Obviously we'd all love it if it were free, but I really don't > think the cost is excessive, and he's entirely within his rights, both > legally and morally, to do what he does. > > >I mean I know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I > >have them but I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? > > Business licence? Why does he need that? He's selling as a sole trader, > not a limited company. How he handles his income is between him and the > Inland Revenue. > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +8.85) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at least answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and then charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how much time it really takes him. I'd just like to know. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > Jason > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

I too doubt Dave himself will answer it. But Ned and Jan at the Pits probably are as much to blame as anyone. They have an answer, perhaps Goy can fill you in. dave henrie "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd atleast >

Who cares why he charges for it. All I know is that 15 quid is very little to pay for something that has given such a lot of enjoyment. Long may he continue to develop stuff for this sim... charging for them or not... Regards Peter Hooper Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd atleast > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, andthen

Quoted text (20 lines)

> charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how much > time it really takes him. > > I'd just like to know. > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > Jason > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > >

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:11:16 GMT, "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Gee, my guess is he sells it because he wants to make money. Ding ding ding! You just won 1 (one) FREE copy of the converter! Congratulations! :) Andre

Quoted text (33 lines)

> >-- >Todd S. > > > >"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Mon 17 Jul 2000 11:53:27pm, [email hidden] wrote: >> >> >We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? >> >> Well I'm not Mr Noonan, but I am a Dave, so I'll have a go at >> answering. I'd guess that DN considers that the amount of work he's put >> in to his program is such that it's reasonable to expect people to pay >> for it. Obviously we'd all love it if it were free, but I really don't >> think the cost is excessive, and he's entirely within his rights, both >> legally and morally, to do what he does. >> >> >I mean I know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I >> >have them but I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? >> >> Business licence? Why does he need that? He's selling as a sole trader, >> not a limited company. How he handles his income is between him and the >> Inland Revenue. >> >> -- >> David. (GPLRank handicap: +8.85) >> "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, >> really." >> (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh) > >

"AndrewS" <[email hidden]> wrote > Dave? Dave's not here, man. "Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye..." "Look Dave, I can see your're really upset about this" -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Fuck off man. You know the hell what I meant.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Actually I don't know about your Copyright Laws, but here this is NOT > Public Domain > > > > > >MS > > > > >

Dave Henrie wrote: > > I too doubt Dave himself will answer it. But Ned and Jan at the Pits > probably are as much to blame as anyone. > They have an answer, perhaps Goy can fill you in. Well, here goes DN's converters has little to do with "The Pits" as such, but the original ICR2->N2 converter was distributed mostly through us, with a discount as Jan felt DN charged a little too much for it at the time, but the converters are Dave's work as such, and what he chooses to do with them is up to him Having said that, and this is to the original poster, David Noonan, or others who chooses to do the same for that matter, don't have to justify charging for their work, he provides a product and it's up to each and every one if you want it or not, and in DN's case, he has done so much for the community over the years and if he can get something back and still provide something for a good value, then all the better Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Kai Fuller wrote: > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at least > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and then > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how much > time it really takes him. Did you even read this message before you sent it out ? David have put more into the community than most people, I have no idea how long it took him to create the converter, and it don't really matter to me, there's also this thing about being able to do something that few others can do, that has to be worth something as well don't you think, and he don't charge for the *one* thing he does, if you read up on all the stuff he has done over the years you will find that most of his stuff is free, much of what he has done isn't released as a "DN product" at "The Pits", it's just incorporated into the other stuff, like the TPTCC patch or whatever, so saying that he charges for the *one* thing he does is plain wrong Saying that he don't have guts only shows have little you know about him, whether or not he chooses to come to this NG and defend himself, why on earth he should have to in the first place is beyond me, has nothing to do with guts, and I'm glad to see that the majority of those that have chosen to voice their opinion on this whole converter issue seems to understand that I don't know why I even bother to argue over this issue anymore Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

*** off man. You know the hell what I meant.

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd atleast > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, andthen > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea howmuch

Quoted text (27 lines)

> > time it really takes him. > > Did you even read this message before you sent it out ? > > David have put more into the community than most people, I have no idea > how long it took him to create the converter, and it don't really matter > to me, there's also this thing about being able to do something that few > others can do, that has to be worth something as well don't you think, > and he don't charge for the *one* thing he does, if you read up on all > the stuff he has done over the years you will find that most of his > stuff is free, much of what he has done isn't released as a "DN product" > at "The Pits", it's just incorporated into the other stuff, like the > TPTCC patch or whatever, so saying that he charges for the *one* thing > he does is plain wrong > > Saying that he don't have guts only shows have little you know about > him, whether or not he chooses to come to this NG and defend himself, > why on earth he should have to in the first place is beyond me, has > nothing to do with guts, and I'm glad to see that the majority of those > that have chosen to voice their opinion on this whole converter issue > seems to understand that > > I don't know why I even bother to argue over this issue anymore > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy

I would guess it has something to do with a difficulty in suffering fools gladly.

Kevin Gavitt wrote: > > I would guess it has something to do with a difficulty in suffering fools > gladly. Got me there mate, in other words, what ? :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

If the only payment addon suppliers were to receive, was the company of some of the people i see in here..... GPL woulda died long ago... If there is no return on the investment of your effort and time, then why bother? I'd be willing to bet Dave doesn't even get much time to enjoy the work he has done. So he doesn't even get that satisfaction. Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98, or Intel/AMD why they charged ya for that last cpu or STFU Martyn_D Kai Fuller wrote:

Quoted text (20 lines)

> I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at least > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and then > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how much > time it really takes him. > > I'd just like to know. > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > Jason > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy.

What a load of bollocks!!! If YOU created a program, YOU have the right to charge for it. Some don't, but some do, and it's up to them, the people who put in the time and hard work,coding, debugging, tweaking, etc. They don't have to justify it to every fuckwit who wants something for nothing. Really, we should consider ourselves lucky when we can have things like new tracks, carsets, graphics, whatever, for free. Or are people going to start asking why Papy think they can charge for their games? -- -Ace- (GPLRank +1.83) Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at least > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and then > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how much > time it really takes him. > > I'd just like to know. >

Didn't like getting attacked on here as well, eh? -Thought so. Jan. =--- <[email hidden]> wrote ... > And is it your business? NO! I want answers. > > <snip>

Yeah, I personally am not trying to say that he HAS to explain himself, but I might be more inclined to buy it myself if he gave us reasoning for the purchase price. I have no problem paying for a Papy Nascar because I know they make their living off of it and spend 24 hour days working on it. If it only took them 2 weeks to make I wouldn't feel comfortable paying 40 bucks for it. (Therefore no buy on N3 or 99) Dave has the right to charge what he wants, as long as he has legal right to do so. And I have no interest is challenging his right to do so. I'm just saying I'd like to know, and don't understand why Dave is so reluctant to speak on the matter. Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (30 lines)

> Dave Henrie wrote: > > > > I too doubt Dave himself will answer it. But Ned and Jan at the Pits > > probably are as much to blame as anyone. > > They have an answer, perhaps Goy can fill you in. > > Well, here goes > > DN's converters has little to do with "The Pits" as such, but the > original ICR2->N2 converter was distributed mostly through us, with a > discount as Jan felt DN charged a little too much for it at the time, > but the converters are Dave's work as such, and what he chooses to do > with them is up to him > > Having said that, and this is to the original poster, David Noonan, or > others who chooses to do the same for that matter, don't have to justify > charging for their work, he provides a product and it's up to each and > every one if you want it or not, and in DN's case, he has done so much > for the community over the years and if he can get something back and > still provide something for a good value, then all the better > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

I mean for one of the things he does, bad English. Basically all I'm saying he can do whatever the hell he wants. :) Just that it's a bit unethical to charge people for your time, when they've given so much to you. I don't think I've done anything for him, so wouldn't expect that from him. This also isn't to misconstrued as me saying that I don't respect all that he's done. I'm just saying what I'm saying. :) <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8l11vj$7tr$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (40 lines)

> My guess is that Todd hit it, to make money. And I have more than > gotten my money's worth of enjoyment from the converter. And what the > heck are you talking about, "the one thing he does"? There is a free > demo of the converter and then there is Brands Hatch, O-ring and Imola > et al. I think all done by Mr. Noonan and provided free to the gpl > world. Hope you and jason will go off in search of another windmill. > > In article <7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]>, > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd > at least > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, > and then > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how > much > > time it really takes him. > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I > mean I > > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them > but > > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

who cares, obviously you don't. Not your place to judge if other should. I personally don't really care. I'm just curious. I have the right to ask, not to demand. Peter Hooper <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ETUc5.3000$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (17 lines)

> Who cares why he charges for it. All I know is that 15 quid is very little > to pay for something that has given such a lot of enjoyment. > Long may he continue to develop stuff for this sim... charging for them or > not... > > Regards > > Peter Hooper > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at > least > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and > then > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how

much

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > time it really takes him. > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean

I > > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have thembut

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > >

I'm not bullying, just curious. There's nothing immoral about charging for it. But as a software supplier, we can discuss what we think about the product value for the price. I can definitely say what I think about his actions if I'd like. But really I'd just like to know more, before I spend money on something. Stephen Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3974259e$[email hidden]... > It's a simple concept. Supply and demand. Dave supplies the onlyconverter > in town. If you want it, then you buy it. Last time I checked, no onewas > holding a gun to anyone's head. If you prefer to support only those who > produce their add-ons for free, then by all means do it. I am not sayingif > it is right or wrong to charge for the converter. Noonan has made a > decision that the time he spent on the converter was worth something tohim, > and so he would like to earn some money. He has also released freeadd-ons. > Others have decided that their work is a simple matter of passion for the > sim, or a fun hobby, and have decided to give it away for free. Why does > everyone suddenly want to bully Dave Noonan to force their values ontohim?

Quoted text (14 lines)

> How do we know he uses any software tools other than his own? > > Stephen > > > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at > least > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and > then > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how

much

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > time it really takes him. > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean

I > > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have thembut

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > >

apparently you with everyone else has missed my point entirely. First read the message above, where I later state that I didn't state the one thing statement correctly. Once again I'm not saying he hasn't done great things I just feel. (1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing for me. I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if I don't have to. (2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, I would feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using my program for free. all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that. Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:P_Zc5.19242$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at > least > > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,

and

Quoted text (35 lines)

> then > > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how > much > > > time it really takes him. > > > > Did you even read this message before you sent it out ? > > > > David have put more into the community than most people, I have no idea > > how long it took him to create the converter, and it don't really matter > > to me, there's also this thing about being able to do something that few > > others can do, that has to be worth something as well don't you think, > > and he don't charge for the *one* thing he does, if you read up on all > > the stuff he has done over the years you will find that most of his > > stuff is free, much of what he has done isn't released as a "DN product" > > at "The Pits", it's just incorporated into the other stuff, like the > > TPTCC patch or whatever, so saying that he charges for the *one* thing > > he does is plain wrong > > > > Saying that he don't have guts only shows have little you know about > > him, whether or not he chooses to come to this NG and defend himself, > > why on earth he should have to in the first place is beyond me, has > > nothing to do with guts, and I'm glad to see that the majority of those > > that have chosen to voice their opinion on this whole converter issue > > seems to understand that > > > > I don't know why I even bother to argue over this issue anymore > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > I would guess it has something to do with a difficulty in suffering fools > gladly. > >

OK Kai lets look at another angle. Derek Smart and Battlecruiser 2000. Derek spent a great deal of time on the newsgroups promoting his product. He also got into many nasty debates(flames) over little trivial items that had little to do with BC2k. From then on, he had a reputation and frankly, I think there were many smug newsgroup users who were pleased when the original BC2k came out too soon and tanked very badly. No matter how well BC3k Millenium turns out, the bad taste of Derek's past will follow it. Perhaps Dave/Jan/Geoff saw some of that and chose to NOT actively participate in the back and forth posts that fill the newsgroups. I can only think of 3 posts by Dave and two of them happened this week. But your real concern seems to be the perceived value of Dave's convertors. I have used his original one for years. I was in very dire straits finanically back then and it took me months to free up $15 to buy it. I almost missed out on the TPTCC because of it.(a great series btw) But I did finally purchase the convertor. It is worth EVERY cent. Now would you beleive I have NOT purchased his latest effort? why? Not because I don't perceive it to be a good value...but I have enough trouble with GPL now...I certainly don't need to be spreading my feeble efforts out to dozens of other tracks. Plus I have raced the American Indy tracks for 3 years now...I'm looking for change. So I haven't gotten the newest convertor. But If I needed it...beleive me, I would. Based on his previous work, I can certainly attest that twenty five or so dollars is a bargain. His products work. And if you are still not convinced, then simply build your own product. Nobody is stopping you. dave henrie

Well Dave, I'm glad someone finally got the light of my posts, I think people were perceiving what I was saying as a flame directed at Noonan, Not at all. I'm not saying the worth of the tracks isn't there, but since he didn't really make the tracks, I'm looking at what I'm paying him as pay for service. I'm paying him for making the tracks available, not for making the tracks. So I was just curious what his reasoning was for charging for it. I would be completely fine if he doesn't, just not sure why after all this time he hasn't just come out and said. It took me six months, and I lost a lot of time with my family or whatever. There's obviously a reason why he decides to charge for this and not the tracks he makes. I'm more curious on that end than anything else. I'm not saying has to, I'd just like to know. Ok I've taken you up on that, I've begun work on something I call GPaL. I've taken Sylvester Stalone's original code, and added the additional feature of converting any GP2 track. :) Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_fad5.23825$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (20 lines)

> OK Kai lets look at another angle. Derek Smart and Battlecruiser 2000. > Derek spent a great deal of time on the newsgroups promoting his product. > He also got into many nasty debates(flames) over little trivial items that > had little to do with BC2k. > From then on, he had a reputation and frankly, I think there were many > smug newsgroup users who were pleased when the original BC2k came out too > soon and tanked very badly. No matter how well BC3k Millenium turns out, > the bad taste of Derek's past will follow it. > Perhaps Dave/Jan/Geoff saw some of that and chose to NOT actively > participate in the back and forth posts that fill the newsgroups. I can > only think of 3 posts by > Dave and two of them happened this week. > But your real concern seems to be the perceived value of Dave's > convertors. I have used his original one for years. I was in very dire > straits finanically back then and it took me months to free up $15 to buy > it. I almost missed out on the TPTCC because of it.(a great series btw) > But I did finally purchase the convertor. It is worth EVERY cent. > Now would you beleive I have NOT purchased his latest effort? why? Not > because I don't perceive it to be a good value...but I have enough trouble > with GPL now...I certainly don't need to be spreading my feeble efforts

out > to dozens of other tracks. Plus I have raced the American Indy tracks for3 > years now...I'm looking for change. So I haven't gotten the newest > convertor. But If I needed it...beleive me, I would. Based on hisprevious

Quoted text (7 lines)

> work, I can certainly attest that twenty five or so dollars is a bargain. > His products work. > And if you are still not convinced, then simply build your own product. > Nobody is stopping you. > dave henrie > >

At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point did I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to know" and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only to support his work. As for the other part of my statement, I'm basically just saying that If I were him, I would have a hard time charging the other people who make converters and such that I use for free. It's like if Microsoft used Apple OS free for some reason, but then charged Apple to use their OS. I'm not saying you can't do it that way, or that he shouldn't but in my opinion, I wouldn't feel great about it. Ace <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8l2n6f$o5l$[email hidden]... > What a load of bollocks!!! If YOU created a program, YOU have the right to > charge for it. Some don't, but some do, and it's up to them, the peoplewho > put in the time and hard work,coding, debugging, tweaking, etc. > They don't have to justify it to every fuckwit who wants something for > nothing. Really, we should consider ourselves lucky when we can havethings > like new tracks, carsets, graphics, whatever, for free. Or are peoplegoing

Quoted text (13 lines)

> to start asking why Papy think they can charge for their games? > -- > -Ace- > (GPLRank +1.83) > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at > least > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and > then > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how

much

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > time it really takes him. > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > >

well every other add-on in the sim community is free, so obviously you and him are the only ones that feel that way. Bill charges me because he needs to pay his employees as well as support himself through this full time job. AMD, must pay researchers, assemblers as well as machinery. factory costs. insurance and raw materials. As well as maintain the large pay required for good uppity upps these days. Ask Linus Torvalds why he decided to make the code for Linux free? SKurj <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > If the only payment addon suppliers were to receive, was the company ofsome of > the people i see in here..... > GPL woulda died long ago... > > If there is no return on the investment of your effort and time, then why > bother? I'd be willing to bet Dave doesn't even get much time to enjoythe work > he has done. So he doesn't even get that satisfaction. > > Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98, or Intel/AMD why they charged ya forthat

Quoted text (8 lines)

> last cpu > or STFU > > Martyn_D > > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at

least > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, andthen > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea howmuch

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > time it really takes him. > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean

I > > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have thembut

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. >

DOH! somebody hide this post before Andre see's it! "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qYad5.345876$[email hidden]... > > > Ok I've taken you up on that, I've begun work on something I call GPaL.I've > taken Sylvester Stalone's original code, and added the additional featureof > converting any GP2 track. :) >

Uh, who else has made any free converters? Who else has made any converters for that matter? As far as new tracks for GPL go, I only know of one good one that was not created by Dave Noonan and that is the GPLEA Snetterton. Brands Hatch , O-Ring, and Imola were all created by Noonan and distributed for free. If making converters were so easy to do, someone else would have already done their own and released it for free. Dave Noonan obviuosly has some expertise and/or time that the rest of us in the sim racing community do not have. What does it matter if it took him 5 minutes or 5 years - if he can create something that no one else can, and it is a good product, why not charge for it. Also, do not forget that over the years, all Noonan's converters have had a free demo that allowed you to convert a couple tracks to see if you would like it. The GPL converter I paid for has given me 21 more tracks, however, I would have glady paid just for Indianapolis and Riverside. All the other "free" stuff out there for GPL does not provide the added longevity of GPL that the track converter does. New carsets, sounds, track graphics, and setups are cool, but nothing extends the life of a racing sim more than the challenge of a new track. Anyway, if you really just want some idea of the amount of time and effort that has gone into the production of Dave Noonan's converters, then here is a quote from Alison Hine's excellent website(http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/) regarding the converter: "Under development for over a year, and crafted with loving care and attention to detail, David's converter is an incredible achievement. I worked with David throughout most of the development period, and I have some idea of the sweat and tears that went into this fantastic product. David's ingenuity and commitment to quality are monumental." Let's end this thread here and get back to enjoying GPL and Dave Noonan's tracks(both free and converted)..... Don Chapman [email hidden] Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z3bd5.345883$[email hidden]... > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what pointdid > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like toknow" > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if onlyto

Quoted text (12 lines)

> support his work. > > As for the other part of my statement, I'm basically just saying that If I > were him, I would have a hard time charging the other people who make > converters and such that I use for free. It's like if Microsoft used Apple > OS free for some reason, but then charged Apple to use their OS. I'm not > saying you can't do it that way, or that he shouldn't but in my opinion, I > wouldn't feel great about it. > > Ace <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8l2n6f$o5l$[email hidden]... > > What a load of bollocks!!! If YOU created a program, YOU have the right

to

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > charge for it. Some don't, but some do, and it's up to them, the people > who > > put in the time and hard work,coding, debugging, tweaking, etc. > > They don't have to justify it to every fuckwit who wants something for > > nothing. Really, we should consider ourselves lucky when we can have > things > > like new tracks, carsets, graphics, whatever, for free. Or are people > going > > to start asking why Papy think they can charge for their games? > > -- > > -Ace- > > (GPLRank +1.83) > > > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at > > least > > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,

and

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > then > > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how > much > > > time it really takes him. > > > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > > > > > > > >

Kai Fuller wrote: > > apparently you with everyone else has missed my point entirely. First read > the message above, where I later state that I didn't state the one thing > statement correctly. K > Once again I'm not saying he hasn't done great things I just feel. > > (1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing for me. > I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if I don't have > to. So...if I made the best damn thing since the bikini, it took me 1 hour to do so and you would enjoy it for an unforseeable time and I charged 40 $ for it, I'd still have to explain why ? Sorry mate, I don't buy that one, it's pretty clear what the converter does, there's even a demo version to be DL'ed, *you* decide whether or not it's worth the price for you and whether or not you want it, but no explanation as to why he charges for is it necessary > (2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, I would > feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using my program for > free. K, I'll give you that, but he's not using any of your stuff is he ? > all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that. I can argue with it all I want :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

SKurj wrote: > > Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98, Greed. That's OK, though. It's all coming home to roost. :-) BTW, I am a DN supporter. Great work & great value! -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > OK Kai lets look at another angle. Derek Smart and Battlecruiser 2000. Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Don't bring the BC2k angle into this NG please!!!! ;-D > From then on, he had a reputation and frankly, I think there were many > smug newsgroup users who were pleased when the original BC2k came out too > soon and tanked very badly. No matter how well BC3k Millenium turns out, > the bad taste of Derek's past will follow it. Please never compare David Noonan to Derek Smart. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd look at them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made the new great bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini's look good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So I would expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for the price. Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortable with buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buy anything without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, because it seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and a new rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that. Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > apparently you with everyone else has missed my point entirely. Firstread > > the message above, where I later state that I didn't state the onething

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > statement correctly. > > K > > > Once again I'm not saying he hasn't done great things I just feel. > > > > (1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing for

me. > > I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if I don'thave

Quoted text (30 lines)

> > to. > > So...if I made the best damn thing since the bikini, it took me 1 hour > to do so and you would enjoy it for an unforseeable time and I charged > 40 $ for it, I'd still have to explain why ? > > Sorry mate, I don't buy that one, it's pretty clear what the converter > does, there's even a demo version to be DL'ed, *you* decide whether or > not it's worth the price for you and whether or not you want it, but no > explanation as to why he charges for is it necessary > > > (2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, I would > > feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using my program for > > free. > > K, I'll give you that, but he's not using any of your stuff is he ? > > > all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that. > > I can argue with it all I want :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

agreed all you said is true. I',m going to take your word for it, and assume that DN is never going to come out and simply say what you just said. I appreciate your comments, it shows that you actually read my post, and didn't just assume I was saying. "I have better morals that DN, and he's stupid and GP3 will be a crap version of GP2... :)" thanks for being reasonable and not jumping off before the gun. Don Chapman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Xafd5.83$[email hidden]... > Uh, who else has made any free converters? Who else has made anyconverters

Quoted text (7 lines)

> for that matter? > As far as new tracks for GPL go, I only know of one good one that was not > created by Dave Noonan and that is the GPLEA Snetterton. Brands Hatch , > O-Ring, and Imola were all created by Noonan and distributed for free. > If making converters were so easy to do, someone else would have already > done their own and released it for free. Dave Noonan obviuosly has some > expertise and/or time that the rest of us in the sim racing community do

not > have. What does it matter if it took him 5 minutes or 5 years - if he can > create something that no one else can, and it is a good product, why not > charge for it. Also, do not forget that over the years, all Noonan's > converters have had a free demo that allowed you to convert a coupletracks > to see if you would like it. > > The GPL converter I paid for has given me 21 more tracks, however, I would > have glady paid just for Indianapolis and Riverside. All the other "free" > stuff out there for GPL does not provide the added longevity of GPL thatthe > track converter does. New carsets, sounds, track graphics, and setups are > cool, but nothing extends the life of a racing sim more than the challenge > of a new track. > > Anyway, if you really just want some idea of the amount of time and effort > that has gone into the production of Dave Noonan's converters, then hereis > a quote from Alison Hine's excellent > website(http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/) regarding the converter: > > "Under development for over a year, and crafted with loving care and > attention to detail, David's converter is an incredible achievement. I > worked with David throughout most of the development period, and I havesome

Quoted text (22 lines)

> idea of the sweat and tears that went into this fantastic product. David's > ingenuity and commitment to quality are monumental." > > Let's end this thread here and get back to enjoying GPL and Dave Noonan's > tracks(both free and converted)..... > > Don Chapman > [email hidden] > > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:z3bd5.345883$[email hidden]... > > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point > did > > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to > know" > > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more > > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only > to > > support his work. > > > > As for the other part of my statement, I'm basically just saying that If

I > > were him, I would have a hard time charging the other people who make > > converters and such that I use for free. It's like if Microsoft usedApple > > OS free for some reason, but then charged Apple to use their OS. I'm not > > saying you can't do it that way, or that he shouldn't but in my opinion,I > > wouldn't feel great about it. > > > > Ace <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8l2n6f$o5l$[email hidden]... > > > What a load of bollocks!!! If YOU created a program, YOU have theright > to > > > charge for it. Some don't, but some do, and it's up to them, thepeople

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > who > > > put in the time and hard work,coding, debugging, tweaking, etc. > > > They don't have to justify it to every fuckwit who wants something for > > > nothing. Really, we should consider ourselves lucky when we can have > > things > > > like new tracks, carsets, graphics, whatever, for free. Or are people > > going > > > to start asking why Papy think they can charge for their games? > > > -- > > > -Ace- > > > (GPLRank +1.83) > > > > > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:7KQc5.398859$[email hidden]... > > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd

at > > > least > > > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that somany

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, > and > > > then > > > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how > > much > > > > time it really takes him. > > > > > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

every other addon in the sim community?!?!?! wtf have u been? Craftsman trucks $$$, Combat flight sim addons $$, half life addons $$, quake addons $$ Alotta games get commenrcial addons, why shouldn't GPL? Martyn_D Kai Fuller wrote:

Quoted text (57 lines)

> well every other add-on in the sim community is free, so obviously you and > him are the only ones that feel that way. > > Bill charges me because he needs to pay his employees as well as support > himself through this full time job. AMD, must pay researchers, assemblers as > well as machinery. factory costs. insurance and raw materials. As well as > maintain the large pay required for good uppity upps these days. > > Ask Linus Torvalds why he decided to make the code for Linux free? > > SKurj <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > If the only payment addon suppliers were to receive, was the company of > some of > > the people i see in here..... > > GPL woulda died long ago... > > > > If there is no return on the investment of your effort and time, then why > > bother? I'd be willing to bet Dave doesn't even get much time to enjoy > the work > > he has done. So he doesn't even get that satisfaction. > > > > Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98, or Intel/AMD why they charged ya for > that > > last cpu > > or STFU > > > > Martyn_D > > > > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at > least > > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many > > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and > then > > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how > much > > > time it really takes him. > > > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean > I > > > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them > but > > > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > > > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > > Before you buy. > >

Don't worry I wasn't comparing DN to DS, I was showing how DN "MAY" have learned a thing or two from the DS debacle which was pretty much a bunch of BS. dh :) "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:D5md5.57$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > > OK Kai lets look at another angle. Derek Smart and Battlecruiser 2000. > > > Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Don't bring the BC2k angle into this NG > please!!!! ;-D > > > > From then on, he had a reputation and frankly, I think there were many > > smug newsgroup users who were pleased when the original BC2k came out

too > > soon and tanked very badly. No matter how well BC3k Millenium turnsout,

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > the bad taste of Derek's past will follow it. > > Please never compare David Noonan to Derek Smart. > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:25:51 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >(1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing for me. >I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if I don't have >to. Surely that much is clear? You know the NASCAR & ICR2 tracks, you know GPL - you are offered the opportunity to add one thing that you know into another thing that you know. You are even offered some free samples to try. >(2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, I would >feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using my program for >free. What do you call Brands Hatch, Osterreichring etc? Having been involved in making tracks in the past, believe me there is a LOT of work goes into it. >all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that. Here? In r.a.s.? You jest, shurely? :-) John

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:25:15 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'm not saying the worth of the tracks isn't there, but since he didn't >really make the tracks, I'm looking at what I'm paying him as pay for >service. I'm paying him for making the tracks available, not for making the >tracks. He made a converter to create the tracks, and he also made several actual new tracks - where's the difference? If he charged for the tracks he made would that make things okay? John

Kai Fuller wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd look at > them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made the new great > bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini's look > good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So I would > expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for the price. > > Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortable with > buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buy anything > without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, because it > seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and a new > rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that.

The reason DN is using a "converter" is to bypass copyright laws, he can not legally distribute any of Papy's original code, especially the .dat and .trk files, so, being the person that he is, he produced the converter so that you would actually have to have access the original tracks to get them to work in GPL, or in N2 as was the case with the original converter There's a *lot* of time invested in this project, not to mention a fair amount of knowledge, a knowledge few others in this community posses, I don't know if you were around at the time N2 came out, but there was a Papy rep in here answering a question if the ovals from ICR2 could be used in N2, he basically said it was impossible as they were too different, wish I could find that post somewhere, that should give you a fair idea about what kind of project this is.... But I still disagree with you about what makes a product valuable, it ought to be what *you* get out of it that sets the value in dollars, not how much time it takes for someone to make the said product, even if David could have made that converter in an evening, it would still be good value to me.... As for his participation in this NG, I can only speculate as to why he don't participate in here, but I don't think I would either if I where him, if I could do what he can, I'd spend a lot less time in here, I can assure you of that.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting are the only true sports...all others are games." --Ernest Hemingway--

Kai Fuller wrote: > > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point did > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to know" > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only to > support his work. That's not how it works. If I'm going to slap together a tool that simplifies modifying AI, track lists, drivers, etc. (hmm, I heard that before) and it is amazingly helpful to the users, I'll charge you what it is worth to YOU and not necessarily what it cost to make the tool. Esp. with the relative small user base we should have paid 50 pounds to pay for David's time. Of course, nobody would pay that much, so the 15 pounds are just a little thankyou for his great effort. l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Kai Fuller wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd look at > them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made the new great > bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini's look > good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So I would > expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for the price. > > Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortable with > buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buy anything > without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, because it > seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and a new > rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that.

So if that's what you are more interested in, try the demo converter... that's what it's there for. If you like it, buy the full converter, if not then don't buy it. It's really very simple. Oh... and by the way Noonan's converter is a product, not a service. Using your bikini example... Say I developed a small home-based tool that could take a preexisting bikini and modify ("convert") it to look good on obese women. This bikini converter would be my product which I could sell to anyone. It takes a bikini which the consumer already bought and converts it to make them look good in it and feel good about themself. Just like Noonan's track converter takes an existing track from a product you purchased and converts it to work in another racing title which you also purchased. It's no different from the millions of products out there that claim to improve something you already own. BTW, don't run with the bikini idea... you'll end up homeless in the long run... ;-) Dave

I've been coming around these parts since ICR1 and Nascar 1, I think I started with CompuServe, and downloaded the 93 carset or something (it has Alan K. in it) as my first download, Now that I've learned more about his project, I've personally been convinced of the asking price myself. Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd lookat > > them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made the newgreat > > bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini's look > > good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So Iwould > > expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for the price. > > > > Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortablewith > > buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buy anything > > without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, because it > > seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and anew

Quoted text (38 lines)

> > rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that. > > The reason DN is using a "converter" is to bypass copyright laws, he can > not legally distribute any of Papy's original code, especially the .dat > and .trk files, so, being the person that he is, he produced the > converter so that you would actually have to have access the original > tracks to get them to work in GPL, or in N2 as was the case with the > original converter > > There's a *lot* of time invested in this project, not to mention a fair > amount of knowledge, a knowledge few others in this community posses, I > don't know if you were around at the time N2 came out, but there was a > Papy rep in here answering a question if the ovals from ICR2 could be > used in N2, he basically said it was impossible as they were too > different, wish I could find that post somewhere, that should give you a > fair idea about what kind of project this is.... > > But I still disagree with you about what makes a product valuable, it > ought to be what *you* get out of it that sets the value in dollars, not > how much time it takes for someone to make the said product, even if > David could have made that converter in an evening, it would still be > good value to me.... > > As for his participation in this NG, I can only speculate as to why he > don't participate in here, but I don't think I would either if I where > him, if I could do what he can, I'd spend a lot less time in here, I can > assure you of that.... > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > http://www.teammirage.com > > "Mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting > are the only true sports...all others are games." > --Ernest Hemingway--

I had assumed that Noonan made a process that converts the track, he manually converted the tracks and then automated that process so that he wouldn't have to come to all our houses and manually convert them. Since this is almost considered a macro of sorts, it's automating his service. If his program could convert any track that works in N2 to work with N3, without the programs previous knowledge of the track, this would then be a product. David R. Ericson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd lookat > > them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made the newgreat > > bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini's look > > good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So Iwould > > expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for the price. > > > > Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortablewith > > buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buy anything > > without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, because it > > seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and anew > > rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that. > > So if that's what you are more interested in, try the demo converter... > that's what it's there for. If you like it, buy the full converter, ifnot

Quoted text (7 lines)

> then don't buy it. It's really very simple. > > Oh... and by the way Noonan's converter is a product, not a > service. Using your bikini example... Say I developed a small home-based > tool that could take a preexisting bikini and modify ("convert") it to > look good on obese women. This bikini converter would be my product which > I could sell to anyone. It takes a bikini which the consumer already

bought > and converts it to make them look good in it and feel good about themself. > Just like Noonan's track converter takes an existing track from a product > you purchased and converts it to work in another racing title which youalso

Quoted text (7 lines)

> purchased. It's no different from the millions of products out there that > claim to improve something you already own. > > BTW, don't run with the bikini idea... you'll end up homeless in the long > run... ;-) > > Dave

My second part was just referring to other add-on markers so in reality it really doesn't concern me. as for the first part, it's still up to me to decide what I do and don't want to pay for. For some reason, me saying that turned into some outrageous thread because others have different standards of buying things. John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (25 lines)

> On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:25:51 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >(1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing for me. > >I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if I don't have > >to. > > Surely that much is clear? You know the NASCAR & ICR2 tracks, you know > GPL - you are offered the opportunity to add one thing that you know > into another thing that you know. You are even offered some free > samples to try. > > >(2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, I would > >feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using my program for > >free. > > What do you call Brands Hatch, Osterreichring etc? Having been > involved in making tracks in the past, believe me there is a LOT of > work goes into it. > > >all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that. > > Here? In r.a.s.? You jest, shurely? :-) > > John

give me a break Skurj, let me rephrase even though you knew what I meant. COMMUNITY based add-ons. SKurj <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > every other addon in the sim community?!?!?! wtf have u been? > Craftsman trucks $$$, Combat flight sim addons $$, half life addons $$,quake

Quoted text (9 lines)

> addons $$ > > Alotta games get commenrcial addons, why shouldn't GPL? > > Martyn_D > > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > well every other add-on in the sim community is free, so obviously you

and > > him are the only ones that feel that way. > > > > Bill charges me because he needs to pay his employees as well as support > > himself through this full time job. AMD, must pay researchers,assemblers as > > well as machinery. factory costs. insurance and raw materials. As wellas

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > maintain the large pay required for good uppity upps these days. > > > > Ask Linus Torvalds why he decided to make the code for Linux free? > > > > SKurj <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > If the only payment addon suppliers were to receive, was the company

of > > some of > > > the people i see in here..... > > > GPL woulda died long ago... > > > > > > If there is no return on the investment of your effort and time, thenwhy > > > bother? I'd be willing to bet Dave doesn't even get much time toenjoy > > the work > > > he has done. So he doesn't even get that satisfaction. > > > > > > Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98, or Intel/AMD why they charged yafor

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > that > > > last cpu > > > or STFU > > > > > > Martyn_D > > > > > > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd

at > > least > > > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that somany > > > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,and

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > then > > > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how > > much > > > > time it really takes him. > > > > > > > > I'd just like to know. > > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:8l02p0$h9s$[email hidden]... > > > > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I

mean > > I > > > > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I havethem > > but > > > > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please Ionly

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > > > Before you buy. > > > >

that's not how it works? I can't base my purchase of a product on standards that I choose? Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Kai Fuller wrote: > > > > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what pointdid > > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like toknow" > > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more > > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if onlyto > > support his work. > > That's not how it works. If I'm going to slap together a tool thatsimplifies > modifying AI, track lists, drivers, etc. (hmm, I heard that before) and it > is amazingly helpful to the users, I'll charge you what it is worth to YOU > and not necessarily what it cost to make the tool. > > Esp. with the relative small user base we should have paid 50 pounds topay

Quoted text (11 lines)

> for David's time. Of course, nobody would pay that much, so the 15 pounds > are just a little thankyou for his great effort. > > l8er > ronny > > -- > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

It seems to me that this whole thread started with an argument about Dave Noonan's right to SELL his product. Kai, you are welcome to your opinion, and if you either do not understand what Noonan's product does for you or do not believe that it is worth your money, then you have the perfect right to NOT purchase it. In other words, if you want it for free then find someone legitimately selling one for free. Otherwise, it's like wanting a free oil change for your car. Keep looking long enough and someone will do that for you. But don't picket the establishments that want you to pay for it. Your right to deem it not worth your purchasing Dave's converter does NOT change his right to charge whatever he wants for it. Frankly, I don't see what all this fuss is about, unless economic anarchy is the end and stealing software is the means. 73 K In article <axId5.121578$[email hidden]>, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > My second part was just referring to other add-on markers so inreality it > really doesn't concern me. > > as for the first part, it's still up to me to decide what I do anddon't > want to pay for. For some reason, me saying that turned into someoutrageous > thread because others have different standards of buying things. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:37:18 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >as for the first part, it's still up to me to decide what I do and don't >want to pay for. For some reason, me saying that turned into some outrageous >thread because others have different standards of buying things. If so, then only because you have made it so. You originally commented that you "don't pay for services unless you know how much they're doing for you". Of course that is your choice, and whether or not to buy is your choice, but given that you get free tracks, a converter that converts some for free and already have all the products in question, the notion that you don't know what you're getting is somewhat bizarre. John

In article <qAId5.439979$[email hidden]>, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (23 lines)

>that's not how it works? I can't base my purchase of a product on standards >that I choose? > > >Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Kai Fuller wrote: >> > >> > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point >did >> > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to >know" >> > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more >> > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only >to >> > support his work. >> >> That's not how it works. If I'm going to slap together a tool that >simplifies >> modifying AI, track lists, drivers, etc. (hmm, I heard that before) and it >> is amazingly helpful to the users, I'll charge you what it is worth to YOU >> and not necessarily what it cost to make the tool. >>

I don't think that's quite what he said... Lemme ask you a question. You obviously know WHAT the converter does. You're intelligent enough for that. You also know what the price is. Is your sticking point the fact that there IS a charge(which you don't think it's worth), or that Dave himself hasn't told you WHY he's charging what he is. I can understand the first scenario, but not the second. Do you own a car? If so, did you ask the company WHY they charge what they charge? Not likely. You look at the choices, and if you like something that fits into your budget, you buy it. I personally don't think ANY car is worth more than about $5000, but then again, I can't build my own...<G> This isn't a flame, but it probably sounds like one. I'm just trying to understand it more from your point of view... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Ok Kai, time to get back under your rock. In article <axId5.121578$[email hidden]>, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > My second part was just referring to other add-on markers so inreality it > really doesn't concern me. > > as for the first part, it's still up to me to decide what I do anddon't > want to pay for. For some reason, me saying that turned into someoutrageous

Quoted text (8 lines)

> thread because others have different standards of buying things. > > John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:25:51 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >(1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing

for me. > > >I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if Idon't have > > >to. > > > > Surely that much is clear? You know the NASCAR & ICR2 tracks, youknow > > GPL - you are offered the opportunity to add one thing that you know > > into another thing that you know. You are even offered some free > > samples to try. > > > > >(2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, Iwould > > >feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using myprogram for

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > >free. > > > > What do you call Brands Hatch, Osterreichring etc? Having been > > involved in making tracks in the past, believe me there is a LOT of > > work goes into it. > > > > >all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that. > > > > Here? In r.a.s.? You jest, shurely? :-) > > > > John > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

To piss you off twit. Sheesh I bought it and havent even converted any tracks yet but bought it just out of sheer support for Dave who has brought us more than your little whining self has ever or will ever. Lead follow or die. PAPA DOC

Quoted text (10 lines)

>We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I >know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but >I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only >want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > >Jason > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.

Twit if I make a bikini look better on a fat woman by snapping my fingers its a product....matter of fact anything I can convince you to buy is a product. Thats what your free will is about....you use your limited "apparently" judgement to decide if you want to buy it. If you dont want to buy it then its tasteless to whine about it...you dont get to own a product because you deserve it...or worse need it. He made it you get to decide if you want it...then you get to pay him what he wants. If you dont want to pay then shut the hell up whining little twit. PAPA DOC

Quoted text (55 lines)

>I had assumed that Noonan made a process that converts the track, he >manually converted the tracks and then automated that process so that he >wouldn't have to come to all our houses and manually convert them. Since >this is almost considered a macro of sorts, it's automating his service. If >his program could convert any track that works in N2 to work with N3, >without the programs previous knowledge of the track, this would then be a >product. > > >David R. Ericson <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> >> Kai Fuller wrote: >> > >> > Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd look >at >> > them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made the new >great >> > bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini's look >> > good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So I >would >> > expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for the price. >> > >> > Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortable >with >> > buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buy anything >> > without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, because it >> > seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and a >new >> > rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that. >> >> So if that's what you are more interested in, try the demo converter... >> that's what it's there for. If you like it, buy the full converter, if >not >> then don't buy it. It's really very simple. >> >> Oh... and by the way Noonan's converter is a product, not a >> service. Using your bikini example... Say I developed a small home-based >> tool that could take a preexisting bikini and modify ("convert") it to >> look good on obese women. This bikini converter would be my product which >> I could sell to anyone. It takes a bikini which the consumer already >bought >> and converts it to make them look good in it and feel good about themself. >> Just like Noonan's track converter takes an existing track from a product >> you purchased and converts it to work in another racing title which you >also >> purchased. It's no different from the millions of products out there that >> claim to improve something you already own. >> >> BTW, don't run with the bikini idea... you'll end up homeless in the long >> run... ;-) >> >> Dave > >

On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 06:44:21 GMT, [email hidden] (Pierre Legrand) wrote: >To piss you off twit. Wasn't it actually 'twat'? Still confused about the difference between twit and twat... anyway, we probably mean the same. Andre

Quoted text (19 lines)

>Sheesh I bought it and havent even converted any >tracks yet but bought it just out of sheer support for Dave who has >brought us more than your little whining self has ever or will ever. > >Lead follow or die. > >PAPA DOC > >>We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I >>know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but >>I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only >>want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. >> >>Jason >> >> >>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >>Before you buy. >

Andre Warringa wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 06:44:21 GMT, [email hidden] (Pierre Legrand) > wrote: > > >To piss you off twit. > > Wasn't it actually 'twat'? Still confused about the difference between > twit and twat... anyway, we probably mean the same. > > Andre

ROTFLOL!! Uh-oh, here we go again. ;-) -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

Andre, A twit is a fool or a silly annoying person. A twat is that hole you're aiming for late at night in a drunken stupor. Given that it's general opinion that you are what you eat, by calling a man a twat you are actually complimenting them... :-) Dave Andre Warringa wrote:

Quoted text (30 lines)

> > On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 06:44:21 GMT, [email hidden] (Pierre Legrand) > wrote: > > >To piss you off twit. > > Wasn't it actually 'twat'? Still confused about the difference between > twit and twat... anyway, we probably mean the same. > > Andre > > >Sheesh I bought it and havent even converted any > >tracks yet but bought it just out of sheer support for Dave who has > >brought us more than your little whining self has ever or will ever. > > > >Lead follow or die. > > > >PAPA DOC > > > >>We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean I > >>know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them but > >>I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only > >>want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else. > >> > >>Jason > >> > >> > >>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > >>Before you buy. > >

-- Colin Harris Colin Harris in N3/VROC ICQ 25485061 Remove "your knickers" to reply David R. Ericson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > A twat is that hole you're aiming for late at night in a drunken stupor. The toilet bowl?

Colin Harris wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > -- > Colin Harris > Colin Harris in N3/VROC > ICQ 25485061 > Remove "your knickers" to reply > > David R. Ericson <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > A twat is that hole you're aiming for late at night in a drunken stupor. > > The toilet bowl?

roflol

Dear racers, somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you can see hundreds of lines copied and commentented by a sole "ROFL". I suggest that those writers would make the laughing and rolling on their floors privately, without bothering our very(!) international and very(!) wide spread newsgroup with their personal rolling problems! Arto

I wasn't saying whether it was ok or not, I was just saying how I saw the product. Not debating his right to purchase it, but interested in the reasoning. John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:25:15 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I'm not saying the worth of the tracks isn't there, but since he didn't > >really make the tracks, I'm looking at what I'm paying him as pay for > >service. I'm paying him for making the tracks available, not for makingthe

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >tracks. > > He made a converter to create the tracks, and he also made several > actual new tracks - where's the difference? If he charged for the > tracks he made would that make things okay? > > John

Yeah I know how this thread started, so I kinda got wrapped into that. I never said I didn't think it was worth my money, And if I didn't for some reason want it, I would by no means ever pirate the software. Dave Noonan has the right to set the pricing where he wants and I will definitely respect that. I don't have a piece of pirates software on my computer, because to me, if you make something, you have the right to decide what it is you want to do with it, as long as it's not of detriment to society, and I have a hard time believing his converter is that. :) Sprinter <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8lae9q$jl$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (34 lines)

> It seems to me that this whole thread started with an argument about > Dave Noonan's right to SELL his product. Kai, you are welcome to your > opinion, and if you either do not understand what Noonan's product does > for you or do not believe that it is worth your money, then you have > the perfect right to NOT purchase it. In other words, if you want it > for free then find someone legitimately selling one for free. > Otherwise, it's like wanting a free oil change for your car. Keep > looking long enough and someone will do that for you. But don't picket > the establishments that want you to pay for it. > > Your right to deem it not worth your purchasing Dave's converter does > NOT change his right to charge whatever he wants for it. > > Frankly, I don't see what all this fuss is about, unless economic > anarchy is the end and stealing software is the means. > > 73 K > > In article <axId5.121578$[email hidden]>, > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > My second part was just referring to other add-on markers so in > reality it > > really doesn't concern me. > > > > as for the first part, it's still up to me to decide what I do and > don't > > want to pay for. For some reason, me saying that turned into some > outrageous > > thread because others have different standards of buying things. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

well now that I have gotten fair messages from people, who instead of criticizing me , because for some reason couldn't understand what I was saying, have given me enough information about the converters that I'm satisfied. In my original message I found it peculiar that Dave charged other add-on makers for his products. Now that I have the understanding of what he puts into it I understand. Why is it that if someone posts anything here the least bit challenging people jump to the most negative conclusion? people jumped to the conclusion that I was saying that Dave didn't have the right to charge for it, and that Dave is some sort of capitalistic pig. That really wasn't what I was saying. And then I have to try to best defend myself, and after awhile it's hard not to get a little angry and become somewhat rhetorical. John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:37:18 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >as for the first part, it's still up to me to decide what I do and don't > >want to pay for. For some reason, me saying that turned into someoutrageous

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >thread because others have different standards of buying things. > > If so, then only because you have made it so. You originally commented > that you "don't pay for services unless you know how much they're > doing for you". Of course that is your choice, and whether or not to > buy is your choice, but given that you get free tracks, a converter > that converts some for free and already have all the products in > question, the notion that you don't know what you're getting is > somewhat bizarre. > > John

I wasn't whining about it. As that would indicate a futile attempt to change Dave's mind and give it to me for free. I was trying to get more information out of the group to make a judgment as you indicated. I agree with everything you said. Pierre Legrand <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3977f1db.3643535@news...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> Twit if I make a bikini look better on a fat woman by snapping my > fingers its a product....matter of fact anything I can convince you to > buy is a product. Thats what your free will is about....you use your > limited "apparently" judgement to decide if you want to buy it. If you > dont want to buy it then its tasteless to whine about it...you dont > get to own a product because you deserve it...or worse need it. He > made it you get to decide if you want it...then you get to pay him > what he wants. If you dont want to pay then shut the hell up whining > little twit. > > PAPA DOC > > >I had assumed that Noonan made a process that converts the track, he > >manually converted the tracks and then automated that process so that he > >wouldn't have to come to all our houses and manually convert them. Since > >this is almost considered a macro of sorts, it's automating his service.

If > >his program could convert any track that works in N2 to work with N3, > >without the programs previous knowledge of the track, this would then bea

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >product. > > > > > >David R. Ericson <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> > >> Kai Fuller wrote: > >> > > >> > Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd

look > >at > >> > them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made thenew > >great > >> > bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini'slook > >> > good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So I > >would > >> > expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for theprice. > >> > > >> > Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortable > >with > >> > buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buyanything > >> > without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, becauseit

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >> > seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and a > >new > >> > rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that. > >> > >> So if that's what you are more interested in, try the demo converter... > >> that's what it's there for. If you like it, buy the full converter, if > >not > >> then don't buy it. It's really very simple. > >> > >> Oh... and by the way Noonan's converter is a product, not a > >> service. Using your bikini example... Say I developed a small

home-based > >> tool that could take a preexisting bikini and modify ("convert") it to > >> look good on obese women. This bikini converter would be my productwhich > >> I could sell to anyone. It takes a bikini which the consumer already > >bought > >> and converts it to make them look good in it and feel good aboutthemself. > >> Just like Noonan's track converter takes an existing track from aproduct > >> you purchased and converts it to work in another racing title which you > >also > >> purchased. It's no different from the millions of products out therethat > >> claim to improve something you already own. > >> > >> BTW, don't run with the bikini idea... you'll end up homeless in thelong > >> run... ;-) > >> > >> Dave > > > > >

actually Eldred, your mail was one of the only well articulated messages that didn't come across as a flame. My original past was saying that I didn't think Dave was likely to come out and say why he would charge for his converts (in response to another's post), I also questioned why Dave wouldn't want to at least give a discount to those who make products for free that he uses. Really that second part, I don't have the right to challenge his morals, I didn't mean to, but it came across that way, I was actually hoping Dave might read that and think it was a good idea. That was all well and good, but then others decided to bring this thread to another level. While I tried to just reiterate that fact that more than anything else I was just curious about what went into the product development, but perhaps went about it in a fairly poor way. So then people were trying to say that they didn't agree with how I decide on purchasing software so that's where we are... ok on to your post: 1) Yes I know what the converter does, I used one in ICR2 once. ok, there really isn't much of a sticking point. The point is that I didn't have enough information on what he had put into the product. Skills, time or knowledge. I was curious about that, and actually didn't have anything to do with my point, but somehow some ones post got me into talking about whether I would buy it, without me noticing that they switched the topic. Since I don't own the tracks to convert, I don't see why that is relevant. Chalk that up to me just trying to defend dozens of posts that totally mistook my meaning. EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <qAId5.439979$[email hidden]>, "Kai Fuller" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >that's not how it works? I can't base my purchase of a product onstandards

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >that I choose? > > > > > >Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Kai Fuller wrote: > >> > > >> > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what

point > >did > >> > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to > >know" > >> > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more > >> > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, ifonly > >to > >> > support his work. > >> > >> That's not how it works. If I'm going to slap together a tool that > >simplifies > >> modifying AI, track lists, drivers, etc. (hmm, I heard that before) andit > >> is amazingly helpful to the users, I'll charge you what it is worth toYOU > >> and not necessarily what it cost to make the tool. > >> > > I don't think that's quite what he said... > Lemme ask you a question. You obviously know WHAT the converter does.You're > intelligent enough for that. You also know what the price is. Is your > sticking point the fact that there IS a charge(which you don't think it's > worth), or that Dave himself hasn't told you WHY he's charging what he is.I > can understand the first scenario, but not the second. Do you own a car?If > so, did you ask the company WHY they charge what they charge? Not likely.You > look at the choices, and if you like something that fits into your budget,you > buy it. I personally don't think ANY car is worth more than about $5000,but

Quoted text (11 lines)

> then again, I can't build my own...<G> > This isn't a flame, but it probably sounds like one. I'm just trying to > understand it more from your point of view... > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +70.45 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Saying that he don't have guts only shows have little you know about > him, whether or not he chooses to come to this NG and defend himself, > why on earth he should have to in the first place is beyond me, has > nothing to do with guts, and I'm glad to see that the majority of those > that have chosen to voice their opinion on this whole converter issue > seems to understand that > > I don't know why I even bother to argue over this issue anymore > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy

Seems to me that Goy has a good grasp of the David Noonan thread. Without a doubt David has and still continues to be the number 1 maker of converters,add-ons, & tracks since the early days of ICR2 and Nascar1. I shudder to think of just what the auto racing sim community would be like without his efforts. While our hobby is all about racing either on or off line, David's passion seems to be converting or changing Papyrus sims. From the start, David has freely given his time and efforts to us via the UsPits. Only on two occasions has he decided that he would charge for a finished product: the original ICR2/n2/n3 converters and the ICR2/n99/n2/99/gpl converters. I purchased both of these converters, and have gotten 10 times my money worth in great racing. Personally, I think it's a disgrace that unknown parties would steal David's work in progress and post a Alfa or Beta track. This happened with Road America a while back. And I downloaded it before I knew what it really was. I found the track to be fun, but lacked the finished look. When I found out that it was warez copy, I deleted it, and waited a few more months for David's finished product. And there was a big difference. But what if David just decided at that point it just wasn't worth it anymore. No more converters, no more great GPL tracks. Where would we all be ? Who would step in and take over where David left off? Unfortunately, from what I've seen, no one is able or capable of doing what David does. Be thankful that David doesn't have to get the official rights from any given track that he wants to create for GPL. For if that was the case, I highly doubt that he could afford the legal services to handle such matters. As of now, almost all tracks require official licensing from any company making a sim for profit, but hasn't bothered with any group or individuals who choose their track or drivers as a add-on, as these items have always been free. Just read what the West brothers have said about the continuing issues of licensing of tracks for WSC. They still haven't been able to finalize what tracks will be included in WSC. Joel Willstein

In <[email hidden]> Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (18 lines)

>On 21 Jul 2000 20:59:00 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: >>Dear racers, >> >>somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines >>of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you >>can see hundreds of lines copied and commentented by a sole "ROFL". >>I suggest that those writers would make the laughing and rolling on >>their floors privately, without bothering our very(!) international >>and very(!) wide spread newsgroup with their personal rolling problems! >> >>Arto >LOL! >Andre >(you were asking for it)

ROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOL! (Is that really funny? Not to me.) (I did not ask for it! And I did not even laugh..., quite the opposite...) Arto

On 21 Jul 2000 20:59:00 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

>Dear racers, > >somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines >of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you >can see hundreds of lines copied and commentented by a sole "ROFL". >I suggest that those writers would make the laughing and rolling on >their floors privately, without bothering our very(!) international >and very(!) wide spread newsgroup with their personal rolling problems! > >Arto

LOL! Andre (you were asking for it)

On 22 Jul 2000 00:44:36 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote:

Quoted text (24 lines)

>In <[email hidden]> Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes: > >>On 21 Jul 2000 20:59:00 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: > >>>Dear racers, >>> >>>somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines >>>of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you >>>can see hundreds of lines copied and commentented by a sole "ROFL". >>>I suggest that those writers would make the laughing and rolling on >>>their floors privately, without bothering our very(!) international >>>and very(!) wide spread newsgroup with their personal rolling problems! >>> >>>Arto > >>LOL! > >>Andre > >>(you were asking for it) > >ROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOL! (Is that really funny? Not to me.) > >(I did not ask for it! And I did not even laugh..., quite the opposite...)

You tested GP3 I guess? Andre > >Arto

:-) Arto In <[email hidden]> "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (38 lines)

>You must be a very sombre chap, Arto. >Perhaps you could adopt the acronym "NROFLOL"? >-- >Regards, >Bruce Kennewell, >Canberra, Australia. >--------------------------- >Arto Wikla <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:wikla.964226676@kanasaari... >> In <[email hidden]> Andre Warringa ><[email hidden]> writes: >> >> >On 21 Jul 2000 20:59:00 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: >> >> >>Dear racers, >> >> >> >>somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines >> >>of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you >> >>can see hundreds of lines copied and commentented by a sole "ROFL". >> >>I suggest that those writers would make the laughing and rolling on >> >>their floors privately, without bothering our very(!) international >> >>and very(!) wide spread newsgroup with their personal rolling problems! >> >> >> >>Arto >> >> >LOL! >> >> >Andre >> >> >(you were asking for it) >> >> ROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOL! (Is that really funny? Not to me.) >> >> (I did not ask for it! And I did not even laugh..., quite the opposite...) >> >> Arto

LOL! Andre (you were asking for it)

:-) Arto

Quoted text (37 lines)

>You must be a very sombre chap, Arto. >Perhaps you could adopt the acronym "NROFLOL"? >-- >Regards, >Bruce Kennewell, >Canberra, Australia. >--------------------------- >> >>Dear racers, >> >>somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines >> >>of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you >> >>can see hundreds of lines copied and commentented by a sole "ROFL". >> >>I suggest that those writers would make the laughing and rolling on >> >>their floors privately, without bothering our very(!) international >> >>and very(!) wide spread newsgroup with their personal rolling problems! >> >>Arto >> >LOL! >> >Andre >> >(you were asking for it) >> ROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOL! (Is that really funny? Not to me.) >> (I did not ask for it! And I did not even laugh..., quite the opposite...) >> Arto

You must be a very sombre chap, Arto. Perhaps you could adopt the acronym "NROFLOL"? -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Arto Wikla <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wikla.964226676@kanasaari... > In <[email hidden]> Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes: > > >On 21 Jul 2000 20:59:00 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: > > >>Dear racers, > >> > >>somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines > >>of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you > >>can see hundreds of lines copied and commentented by a sole "ROFL". > >>I suggest that those writers would make the laughing and rolling on > >>their floors privately, without bothering our very(!) international > >>and very(!) wide spread newsgroup with their personal rolling problems! > >> > >>Arto > > >LOL! > > >Andre > > >(you were asking for it) > > ROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOLROFLOL! (Is that really funny? Not to me.) > > (I did not ask for it! And I did not even laugh..., quite the opposite...) > > Arto

In article <wikla.964213140@kanasaari>, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) writes:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>Dear racers, > >somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines >of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you >can see hundreds of lines copied and commentented by a sole "ROFL". >I suggest that those writers would make the laughing and rolling on >their floors privately, without bothering our very(!) international >and very(!) wide spread newsgroup with their personal rolling problems! > >Arto >

LOL! Well, it's *different*... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: LOL! Well, it's *different*... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Sprinter <[email hidden]> wrote: : It seems to me that this whole thread started with an argument about : Dave Noonan's right to SELL his product. Suggest you reread the thread then. Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes: >know=now > >I need a better spell checker, one that knows which words I'm actually >trying to write, not the one's I'm writing :-) > You also need one that knows there's no apostrophe in "ones"...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Kai Fuller wrote:

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > actually Eldred, your mail was one of the only well articulated messages > that didn't come across as a flame. > > My original past was saying that I didn't think Dave was likely to come out > and say why he would charge for his converts (in response to another's > post), I also questioned why Dave wouldn't want to at least give a discount > to those who make products for free that he uses. > > Really that second part, I don't have the right to challenge his morals, I > didn't mean to, but it came across that way, I was actually hoping Dave > might read that and think it was a good idea. > > That was all well and good, but then others decided to bring this thread to > another level. While I tried to just reiterate that fact that more than > anything else I was just curious about what went into the product > development, but perhaps went about it in a fairly poor way. So then people > were trying to say that they didn't agree with how I decide on purchasing > software

I can't speak for the others Kai, but it was this line in your original post that had me going.... > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. Seeing as you have yourself tried arguing your position against others in a NG like this, do you still think it has something to do with guts or do you know think it's common sense to put that time into his next project :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Goy Larsen wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > I can't speak for the others Kai, but it was this line in your original > post that had me going.... > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. > > Seeing as you have yourself tried arguing your position against others > in a NG like this, do you still think it has something to do with guts > or do you know think it's common sense to put that time into his next > project :-)

know=now I need a better spell checker, one that knows which words I'm actually trying to write, not the one's I'm writing :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

EldredP wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes: > > >know=now > > > >I need a better spell checker, one that knows which words I'm actually > >trying to write, not the one's I'm writing :-) > > > > You also need one that knows there's no apostrophe in "ones"...<g>

Exactly :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Got a good education by my ISP: replies to postings have to be longer than the posting. So you have to snip properly. Was quite annoying in the beginning to get lots of rejects, but it's a matter of training Jens BTW A slightly larger signature also eases the pain ;-) On 21 Jul 2000 20:59:00 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: >Dear racers, > >somebody commented something by "roflol" after copying tens of lines >of the original article. This was not the worst case: sometimes you<snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes