I found this on the sierrasports motorsports forum (as it was once
known..before the dark days, before n3). Big hand to mr torellini and
others for the following...
Author Topic: Cable vs. DSL.....the real poop
Luigi Tortellini
Member posted 12-18-1999 12:55 PM
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I'm just reposting this, from a reply I made to "Lets Talk Cable!". I'm
reposting because I see this question come up all the time, and most folks
aren't aware of the things to consider when hooking up to a fast connection.
(plus, I took way too long writing it to have it buried. LOL)
After you read the following, you'll understand (hopefully), why a "192Kbps
SDSL connection/CIR value 80" is usually far superior to a "10Mbps
asymmetrical cable connection/CIR 10". The cable connect SOUNDS a lot
faster, but many factors are involved. Read on if you've got some time to
kill. 8^)
YOUR CABLE vs. DSL QUESTIONS ANSWERED:
(this is long)
The best cable may be better than the best DSL. But the best DSL may be
better than cable. Huh, you ask?
First off, understanding the fundamental differences between the two
technologies is important to deciding which is for you (if you're so lucky
to have the choice right now).
The Network Neighborhood...Literally
Cable Internet uses the CableTV networks specific to cities. *duh* Cable can
provide incredible connection speeds, upwards of 60 Megabits per second
(theorectically). But these networks were of course originally optimized for
broadcast transmission, not reception. The network is not circuit specific.
In other words, everybody is on the same "circuit" watching TV, and their
cableTV decoders are simply looking at very specific frequency ranges to
receive the various channels. But ALL those frequencies are reaching
everybody's house, all at the same time. In essence, it's a giant web of
shared bandwidth. This bandwidth is not infinite, naturally, and so each new
Cooking Show channel and Fishing Channel takes up a little more of that
room. Most cable companies really do load their networks up with as many
channels as they can stuff in the pipes.
You Get What They Pay For
So your cable company offers internet access, right? So, now they have to
provide "upstream" capability to the service that was built to only provide
a one-way ticket for electrons to your house. They do it one of two ways:
They split up more of the remaining "space" in the bandwidth, and "cap" the
ends to work in the opposite direction. It's cheap, easy, and BAD for the
game player. Or, they do it the right way and acutally install new lines and
equipment to support the upward flow of internet-bound electrons, and even
more bandwidth for downloading data to you. Expensive, harder to do, and
GREAT for the gamer. In the end, you get two flavors of cable internet:
"broadband" (syncronous) where the data flows just as fast upstream as it
does down (GREAT), and the kind most cable companies provide (asyncronous)
where you get great download but upload that's no better than dial-up modem.
Fast Moving Water, Tiny Pipes
Now more about cable bandwidth. This cable company realizes what a cash-cow
it's got, with people signing up left and right for the "incredible
connection speeds". They keep splitting, chopping, and cuttin-up those
frequencies to pack as much data on those poor lines as they can. If the
company takes the cheap way out and doesn't increase their equipment
capabilities, but keeps signing up new members, the whole thing starts
getting choked up all to hell. You end up with an incredibly fast data
pipeline, but the pipe is too damn skinny to carry much data at a time. The
more people that are on the network at a time, all surfing on Sunday nite or
something, the worse the problem gets. Not good.
Enter DSL
First of all, DSL is run over your phone lines, the grand network of "Ma
Bell" and friends. Those copper lines have an incredible amount of frequency
bandwidth built into them, just like cable. But the kicker is, telephone
voice transmission uses an incredibly tiny amount of the total bandwith.
Everything under 300Hz is dedicated for analog voice data (phones and
dial-up modems). That leaves a HUGE amount of frequency wide open for
anything else. DSL has "marked" their territory on the bandwidth, and this
technology occupies the range from 300Hz to 3,200Hz. Get the picture? DSL
has 2,900Hz of space to play with, on a network that's currently managing to
handle the traffic of all those phone calls and dial-up modems on a measly
300Hz (actually less...about 100Hz). Because the network is "circuit
specific" (unlike cable), each user's data is taking a very specific path
from his house to the phone company or ISP, and is totally independent and
uninhibited by how many other folks are using the system at the same time
(within reason...if EVERY person in a big city suddenly picked up the phone
at the exact same time, well...the phone company would be crushed under the
weight. Not a bad idea, eh? LOL). So bandwidth is never a problem, as it can
be with cable...there's plenty to go around on DSL.
Slower Water, But Bigger and Shorter Pipes
The main problem is the signal strength. On phone lines, it's pretty weak.
So it limits the distance your data can travel down the lines. It also
limits the speed the data travels to a theoretical 6Mbs, but more commonly
1.5Mbs. Still WAY faster than your .056Mbs modem...about 150 times faster.
Imagine 150 dialup modems all working in harmony to rush the data to your
single screen...8^) Even the "budget" DSL service of 192Kbs (.192Mbs) is
still about 4 times faster than the very fastest dial-up modem...usually
about 8 times faster in reality (I won't go into the nitty gritty of why).
ADSL=Bad SDSL=Good
Asynchronous, and Synchronous flavors of DSL are offered. Same as the cable
problem...ADSL offers fast download, but dial-up speed upload. Synchronus
offers the same speed both ways. Why is asynchronous bad for gaming? That
totally depends on the game itself. Some games do not necessarily require
high upload speeds, as the data the server needs from you is limited. It
just needs position data and damage info, for example, in N3. Your computer
calculates your position on the track based on your speed, orientation, etc.
You PC also makes all the damage calculations and just shoots the vital info
off to the server. The server then updates everybody in the game. But in
some games, the server does the brunt of the calulating, and needs much more
data from you. In these games, ADSL and the asynchronous variety of cable
are BAD. Tribes comes to mind. There's a whole lot more factors involved,
but basically syncronous connections are far superior in all respects. If
everybody in a race or deathmatch were using SDSL or cable from a company
that hasn't oversold its bandwidth (and is synchronous), it would work as
lag-free as the best LANs!
Lean n Mean, or Seriously Obese?
DSL has one more limitation, that depends on the phone company. There's a
value called a "CIR" number, that indicates how much percentage of time
you're essentially gauranteed to get the speeds you're paying for. Some
phone companies have CIR values of as high as 80, which means 80 percent of
the time, you're gauranteed to be pushing and pulling data at your optimum
speed. Some areas, however, have CIR values as low as 10-30. IMPORTANT TO
NOTE: Most cable companies, that's right...most...have CIR values ranging
from 0-20. It's because most of them oversell their bandwidth.
These are some things to consider when making your connection choice.
Important thing to do is ask a lot of questions, and demand the answers
before you sign up with an internet provider. Find out their limitations,
and CIR values.
*whew*
Luigi
[This message has been edited by Luigi Tortellini (edited 12-18-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Luigi Tortellini (edited 12-18-1999).]
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Luigi Tortellini
Member posted 12-18-1999 01:16 PM
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So you read through it? Hehehe...
I want to clarify some more. Then I'll stop, I promise (except to reply to
replies).
Basically, Cable vs. DSL is a balancing act. The cable guy may offer
incredibly fast connect speeds, but if there's too many people on, it'll
suffer at times. Might be better to go with a slower connection (DSL), but
one that has no bandwidth problems.
If you would like to host races, it's critical that you understand the
limitations of ADSL and the asymmetric variety of cable. To host reliable
races with LOTS of players, you need fast upload speeds for them to enjoy
it. That's why sometimes a fast ADSL connection or even faster cable
connection still can't host a lot of players at a time without lag and warp.
The BEST would be a 10Mbps "broadband" (symmetrical/synchronus) cable
connection with a CIR of 80+. But those are very rare. More common are the
Asynchronus cable connections that are at the mercy of traffic (low
CIR)...great at times, not so great at others. In this case, a quality SDSL
connection/CIR 80+, even with lower data transfer speeds of 512, 256,
192Kbps would provide the superior hosting connection. The pings wont be as
low, but the lag and warp will be lower too.
There's a lot more to consider than simple connection speed.
Ok, enuff said. 8^)
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Mortado
Member posted 12-18-1999 02:27 PM
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I'll be installing US West's Megabit Deluxe DSL service with 2 static IP
numbers by the 28th of this month. The flavor of DSL they offer has a
different name than the one you mention, it's called Rate Adaptive DSL
(RADSL). Their representative said that my package would give me a constant
256 kb up and 272 kb down. I didn't know to ask for a CIR value so I don't
know what that would be. I would think that it's pretty reliable though, as
my friend down the street hosts a 12 player Quake 3 server (unfortunately I
can't get him into racing sims) and it's stable as heck. I look forward to
finding out how many people I can host N3 races with, my guess will be 10 to
12. I'll be using the Cisco 675 external modem rather than the internal
varieties in case I feel like networking my systems. I chose US West for my
ISP because that reduces the total cost to 47 bucks a month. If anyone else
is using the same service your comments on hosting/racing are welcome.
Cable's not available in my neighborhood but even if it was I don't think
I'd get it. I have (had) a lot of friends using AT&T AtHome who are swarming
to DSL like flies to. well, you know. It seems that AT&T is drastically
oversubscribing and their connection speed tends to drop to that of a modem
consistently during peak usuage hours. To heck with that, I say. Even if
it's not blisteringly fast I'd much rather have a service that gives me a
steady speed I can rely on.
Cheers,
Mortado
------------------------------ Timewarp ------------------------------
------------------
"What is real? Are you certain you know what reality
is? How do you know at this second you aren't asleep
in your bed, dreaming that you are here..."
-The Wizard of Gore
http://www.shadows.com/nascar/index.htm
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Luigi Tortellini
Member posted 12-18-1999 02:46 PM
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Yeah, I didn't mention all the subtle flavors of xDSL. There's HDSL, RADSL,
IDSL, on and on...about twenty of them. Each one uses slightly different
technology, but most fall into either the symmetrical or asymmetrical
category.
RADSL is a rather unique beast, and actually pretty cool. It's asynchronous,
but does allow for very fast upload when conditions are good. It uses
carrierless amplitude and phase modulation (CAP). The uplink rate depends on
the downlink rate, which is a function of line conditions and signal to
noise ratio (SNR). It's a "dynamic" connection, that changes on-the-fly when
line signal varibles change. So in times of rainy weather (causing
cross-talk and voltage degradation), or really heavy phone network use,
it'll adjust (slow down) the upload speed to compensate, and hopefully boost
the download rate some.
For the amount of money you're going to pay, that's a great deal. Consider
yourself fortunate!
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David Jr
Member posted 12-18-1999 02:56 PM
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So if I were to ask a guy that about my type of cable in the area, what
would i ask? i can get cable here, but not DSL. Should I ask if it is
"broadband" or what? If it is of the "cheap" way done, do you think they
would give me info on what the number of subscribers are in the area? thanks
for the help, and by the way, I would be asking ATT@home, if that helps you
any. Also, if it helps you any, I am living in one of the fastest growing
areas in the US, in Northen Colorado.
Oh, also, how can i find out what is available in my area, for all DSL
services, it may be and I am just to dumb to not know, so where could I go
to find out? Thanks!
David Jr.
[This message has been edited by David Jr (edited 12-18-1999).]
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Luigi Tortellini
Member posted 12-18-1999 03:13 PM
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David,
Ask them first if it's "broadband". They might offer both synchronus and
asynchronus types, at different pricing. But more likely, they're only going
to offer one type.
Remember, it's what you're wanting to do with the connection that matters.
If you want to be able to host big races, you'll certainly need broadband
cable. But the asynchronus version, with it's slower upload speed, will
still provide great gameplay for YOU on other peoples' servers. It just
won't make a great connection for hosting.
Ask them to tell you about their setup. Ask, "Is this service integrated
into the existing cableTV system, with another frequency band allocated on
the existing lines? (Bad) Or is your system setup with a second cable plant
for upstream data handling?" (Good).
If they say they've got broadband (synchronous) connections and another
cable plant, then you'll do GREAT. You'll also likely pay a pretty penny. If
they say it's asynchronus and integrated into the existing lines, be wary of
it. The price will also be reduced (hopefully). Then you should ask them
pointed questions like "Are you planning on overselling your product and
choking up the performance", at which point you'll probably get some silence
from the guy on the other end, followed by a nice corporate statement like
"We are dedicated to providing our customers the best internet access
available in your area." Barf.
This isn't to say you won't like it. Jeez, ANYTHING is better than a regular
dial-up modem, and most folks are very happy with their cable service in
comparison. But make sure the extra cost is worth it to you.
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Luigi Tortellini
Member posted 12-18-1999 03:21 PM
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Sorry David, forgot to answer your question about finding out if DSL is
available.
Call your local phone carrier (sounds like AT&T) and ask. Or check their
corporate website...some carriers have a feature on their websites that let
you put in your phone number to check if DSL is available.
Also, even if they don't offer it, a third-party company like JATO
communications may offer the service...they pay the carrier a fee to use
their phone equipment (which is translated into higher cost for the
users...bummer). Then they frequently resell this service to a wide array of
independent ISP's. To find out, watch for billboards, the local newspaper,
etc. advertising DSL internet, and contact them.
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David Jr
Member posted 12-18-1999 03:35 PM
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Thanks for the help! Our telephone provider is US West though.
So what if the cable company has the "bad" setup here, but not many people
have the service, would it be a good thing to get? I know for a fact that no
one I know has the service. Our town is only about 7000 people, so that
shouldnt hurt us, but the town that is close to us has 125,000+, but i
really dont think that many people have the service here, because i have
seen no advertising for it, except for one flyer in the mail.
I know the service would either be $35 or $40 a month, including modem
rental, or $29 a month if you have your own modem. So based on those 2
figures, could you maybe come to an idea of what it is?
Once again, thanks for the help!
David Jr.
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LittleFan
Member posted 12-18-1999 03:43 PM
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Wow, great posts Luigi. Lots of info and VERY informative. THAT is what this
board is all about...
(note to self, print out this string so I will not get taken to cleaners)
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Luigi Tortellini
Member posted 12-18-1999 03:45 PM
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David. First check out http://www.uswest.com , click on "home services"
link, and find a link to "Megabit" service. Somewhere on there is a link to
check the availability, simply type in your phone number, at it will tell
you what's available in your area for RADSL, if anything.
I really can't say what your cable company is offering, though. You'll need
to call them, or check and see if they have a website with info. One thing,
in many new and growing communities in fine states like Colorado, they
frequently have the common sense to install their new cable systems with a
little proactive, intelligent foresight. Meaning they understand the huge
market for cable internet, and they install a good cable system for it from
the ground up. In these situations, you're likely to find those rare cases
of cable companies providing truly AWESOME internet access (broadband, very
fast, and able to handle a growing load). You may be one of them! The only
way to find out for sure is to call them...
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Mortado
Member posted 12-18-1999 04:03 PM
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A quicker route to get to US West's DSL pages is through
http://www.megaspeed.com
Mortado
------------------
"What is real? Are you certain you know what reality
is? How do you know at this second you aren't asleep
in your bed, dreaming that you are here..."
-The Wizard of Gore
http://www.shadows.com/nascar/index.htm
IP: Logged
David Jr
Member posted 12-21-1999 04:49 PM
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Heres the deal, i have "broadband" here in my area, great!!!!! I want to get
it, i may, but is 39.95 worth it a month? plus, right now you get a month
free, and free installation, (usually 150 bucks!). So, should I do it? Well,
actually, its up to my parents, my mom said yes, my dad, well, he had a
rough day at work, lol, i hope he will be genorous!!!! So, is this good for
me?
Also, I plan on running a splitter from the adjacent room, and then running
the cable to the pc room, i dont think is that hard, we have fished
everything, we have a HT too, so we know what to do, my qusetion is, will it
affect quality of the speed much?
And, what i was told is that how my cable net would work, is the cable goes
from my house, to the local neighborhood box, then gets split into the
"broadband". Is this still good? I know for a fact that no one on my street
has it, or anyone, i know no one with it!!!!! So, will my connection suffer?
Thanks a lot for the help!
David Jr.
ps DSL is not availiable here, and wont be for a while, or telephone company
has a 8 month waiting list just for regualar phone hook ups, lol,
sooooo....you can see why it wont be!
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David Jr
Member posted 12-21-1999 04:52 PM
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Heres the deal, i have "broadband" here in my area, great!!!!! I want to get
it, i may, but is 39.95 worth it a month? plus, right now you get a month
free, and free installation, (usually 150 bucks!). So, should I do it? Well,
actually, its up to my parents, my mom said yes, my dad, well, he had a
rough day at work, lol, i hope he will be genorous!!!! So, is this good for
me?
Also, I plan on running a splitter from the adjacent room, and then running
the cable to the pc room, i dont think is that hard, we have fished
everything, we have a HT too, so we know what to do, my qusetion is, will it
affect quality of the speed much?
And, what i was told is that how my cable net would work, is the cable goes
from my house, to the local neighborhood box, then gets split into the
"broadband". Is this still good? I know for a fact that no one on my street
has it, or anyone, i know no one with it!!!!! So, will my connection suffer?
Thanks a lot for the help!
David Jr.
ps DSL is not availiable here, and wont be for a while, or telephone company
has a 8 month waiting list just for regualar phone hook ups, lol,
sooooo....you can see why it wont be!
> DSL has one more limitation, that depends on the phone company. There's a
> value called a "CIR" number, that indicates how much percentage of time
> you're essentially gauranteed to get the speeds you're paying for. Some
> phone companies have CIR values of as high as 80, which means 80 percentof
> the time, you're gauranteed to be pushing and pulling data at your optimum
> speed. Some areas, however, have CIR values as low as 10-30. IMPORTANT TO
> NOTE: Most cable companies, that's right...most...have CIR values ranging
> from 0-20. It's because most of them oversell their bandwidth.
Nice article, however CIR has been defined incorrectly. CIR stands for
"Committed Information Rate," and it is what it says. It is the data rate
you are guaranteed. So, if you have a 768k xDSL line, with a CIR of 80, you
can _burst_ up to 768k, however you are only guaranteed 80k at any one time.
Sound bad? It is. Do providers care? They don't. I've done xDSL for
service providers and for clients as a consultant, and this is the way they
do business. Arm yourself when going to that service provider. Ask for a
Service Level Agreement (SLA) that covers CIR, response time to your
trouble calls, and (if possible, often they won't give this to a residential
customer) a percentage of time the circuit is to remain up.
Here is a great definition of CIR from DSL Reports
(http://dslreports.com/information/kb/CIR), which is a good resouce for DSL
information:
"CIR
Committed information rate. This is a number that your provider will
guarantee as a minimum level of service at any time. For example, you have a
state of the art top speed 7mbps ADSL connection. And your CIR is 128k. Are
you happy? not really.. because unless you can prove your link runs slower
than 128k, you have no right to complain. Of course the link may burst up to
7mbps, when the network is not busy, but the CIR means the provider does not
go out of business trying to maintain that to all users simultaneously when
www.microsoft.com announces that it will be paying Cindy Crawford to strip
on streaming video for free viewing, as a way of building visitors to the
MSN network.
If your provider does not tell you what the CIR is, it is probably because
they haven't decided it yet, and will publish it later, when it is too late
to change your mind. See also SLA. At the moment, it would be fair to
comment that residential DSL is provided on a best effort basis. This means
there are no guarantees."
So when cable gives you a CIR of 10, beware. They are only guaranteeing 10k
to your end station. So why have a CIR of '0'? That's right, a guarantee
of 0k. The network will deliver what it can, but does not guarantee any
bandwidth level. Small business often get a 768k line with a CIR of 0
because it is cheaper than a CIR of 128k. I have a 768k to the office with
a CIR of 0, and generally get about 90k. Raising the CIR to 128k would have
cost me 48% more.
If your provider is giving CIR as a percentage there are 3 possibilities:
1) It is a percentage of advertised line speed i.e.. "We guarantee 80% of
bandwidth will be available at any given time to you." I've worked with
several service providers that do it this way. It makes it easer when the
customer upgrades to a higher speed and they can keep the same percentage
commitment to the customer
2) They are misusing the definition of CIR, and are giving you an SLA that
you will have full speed xx% of the time. Get this one in writing, if you
have full speed synchronous cable 50% of the time, you are either going to
be screaming online or win a lawsuit when they can't provide that level of
service. Never seen it done, but it could happen.
3) They are trying to stick it to you. I haven't seen them do it in the
context we are speaking, but they will try to get you other ways. Read the
contract...
Next week, the DSLAM...and it ain't about basketball!
Enjoy,
Dave
thanks for the posts - good info.
pez <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:8kle5p$j24$[email hidden]...
--
> ----
> I'm just reposting this, from a reply I made to "Lets Talk Cable!". I'm
> reposting because I see this question come up all the time, and most folks
> aren't aware of the things to consider when hooking up to a fast
connection.
> (plus, I took way too long writing it to have it buried. LOL)
> After you read the following, you'll understand (hopefully), why a
"192Kbps
> SDSL connection/CIR value 80" is usually far superior to a "10Mbps
> asymmetrical cable connection/CIR 10". The cable connect SOUNDS a lot
> faster, but many factors are involved. Read on if you've got some time to
> kill. 8^)
>
> YOUR CABLE vs. DSL QUESTIONS ANSWERED:
> (this is long)
> The best cable may be better than the best DSL. But the best DSL may be
> better than cable. Huh, you ask?
>
> First off, understanding the fundamental differences between the two
> technologies is important to deciding which is for you (if you're so lucky
> to have the choice right now).
>
>
> The Network Neighborhood...Literally
>
> Cable Internet uses the CableTV networks specific to cities. *duh* Cable
can
> provide incredible connection speeds, upwards of 60 Megabits per second
> (theorectically). But these networks were of course originally optimized
for
> broadcast transmission, not reception. The network is not circuit
specific.
> In other words, everybody is on the same "circuit" watching TV, and their
> cableTV decoders are simply looking at very specific frequency ranges to
> receive the various channels. But ALL those frequencies are reaching
> everybody's house, all at the same time. In essence, it's a giant web of
> shared bandwidth. This bandwidth is not infinite, naturally, and so each
new
> Cooking Show channel and Fishing Channel takes up a little more of that
> room. Most cable companies really do load their networks up with as many
> channels as they can stuff in the pipes.
>
>
> You Get What They Pay For
>
> So your cable company offers internet access, right? So, now they have to
> provide "upstream" capability to the service that was built to only
provide
> a one-way ticket for electrons to your house. They do it one of two ways:
> They split up more of the remaining "space" in the bandwidth, and "cap"
the
> ends to work in the opposite direction. It's cheap, easy, and BAD for the
> game player. Or, they do it the right way and acutally install new lines
and
> equipment to support the upward flow of internet-bound electrons, and even
> more bandwidth for downloading data to you. Expensive, harder to do, and
> GREAT for the gamer. In the end, you get two flavors of cable internet:
> "broadband" (syncronous) where the data flows just as fast upstream as it
> does down (GREAT), and the kind most cable companies provide (asyncronous)
> where you get great download but upload that's no better than dial-up
modem.
>
>
> Fast Moving Water, Tiny Pipes
>
> Now more about cable bandwidth. This cable company realizes what a
cash-cow
> it's got, with people signing up left and right for the "incredible
> connection speeds". They keep splitting, chopping, and cuttin-up those
> frequencies to pack as much data on those poor lines as they can. If the
> company takes the cheap way out and doesn't increase their equipment
> capabilities, but keeps signing up new members, the whole thing starts
> getting choked up all to hell. You end up with an incredibly fast data
> pipeline, but the pipe is too damn skinny to carry much data at a time.
The
> more people that are on the network at a time, all surfing on Sunday nite
or
> something, the worse the problem gets. Not good.
>
>
> Enter DSL
>
> First of all, DSL is run over your phone lines, the grand network of "Ma
> Bell" and friends. Those copper lines have an incredible amount of
frequency
> bandwidth built into them, just like cable. But the kicker is, telephone
> voice transmission uses an incredibly tiny amount of the total bandwith.
> Everything under 300Hz is dedicated for analog voice data (phones and
> dial-up modems). That leaves a HUGE amount of frequency wide open for
> anything else. DSL has "marked" their territory on the bandwidth, and this
> technology occupies the range from 300Hz to 3,200Hz. Get the picture? DSL
> has 2,900Hz of space to play with, on a network that's currently managing
to
> handle the traffic of all those phone calls and dial-up modems on a measly
> 300Hz (actually less...about 100Hz). Because the network is "circuit
> specific" (unlike cable), each user's data is taking a very specific path
> from his house to the phone company or ISP, and is totally independent and
> uninhibited by how many other folks are using the system at the same time
> (within reason...if EVERY person in a big city suddenly picked up the
phone
> at the exact same time, well...the phone company would be crushed under
the
> weight. Not a bad idea, eh? LOL). So bandwidth is never a problem, as it
can
> be with cable...there's plenty to go around on DSL.
>
>
> Slower Water, But Bigger and Shorter Pipes
>
> The main problem is the signal strength. On phone lines, it's pretty weak.
> So it limits the distance your data can travel down the lines. It also
> limits the speed the data travels to a theoretical 6Mbs, but more commonly
> 1.5Mbs. Still WAY faster than your .056Mbs modem...about 150 times faster.
> Imagine 150 dialup modems all working in harmony to rush the data to your
> single screen...8^) Even the "budget" DSL service of 192Kbs (.192Mbs) is
> still about 4 times faster than the very fastest dial-up modem...usually
> about 8 times faster in reality (I won't go into the nitty gritty of why).
>
>
> ADSL=Bad SDSL=Good
>
> Asynchronous, and Synchronous flavors of DSL are offered. Same as the
cable
> problem...ADSL offers fast download, but dial-up speed upload. Synchronus
> offers the same speed both ways. Why is asynchronous bad for gaming? That
> totally depends on the game itself. Some games do not necessarily require
> high upload speeds, as the data the server needs from you is limited. It
> just needs position data and damage info, for example, in N3. Your
computer
> calculates your position on the track based on your speed, orientation,
etc.
> You PC also makes all the damage calculations and just shoots the vital
info
> off to the server. The server then updates everybody in the game. But in
> some games, the server does the brunt of the calulating, and needs much
more
> data from you. In these games, ADSL and the asynchronous variety of cable
> are BAD. Tribes comes to mind. There's a whole lot more factors involved,
> but basically syncronous connections are far superior in all respects. If
> everybody in a race or deathmatch were using SDSL or cable from a company
> that hasn't oversold its bandwidth (and is synchronous), it would work as
> lag-free as the best LANs!
>
>
> Lean n Mean, or Seriously Obese?
>
> DSL has one more limitation, that depends on the phone company. There's a
> value called a "CIR" number, that indicates how much percentage of time
> you're essentially gauranteed to get the speeds you're paying for. Some
> phone companies have CIR values of as high as 80, which means 80 percent
of
> the time, you're gauranteed to be pushing and pulling data at your optimum
> speed. Some areas, however, have CIR values as low as 10-30. IMPORTANT TO
> NOTE: Most cable companies, that's right...most...have CIR values ranging
> from 0-20. It's because most of them oversell their bandwidth.
>
> These are some things to consider when making your connection choice.
> Important thing to do is ask a lot of questions, and demand the answers
> before you sign up with an internet provider. Find out their limitations,
> and CIR values.
>
> *whew*
>
> Luigi
>
> [This message has been edited by Luigi Tortellini (edited 12-18-1999).]
>
> [This message has been edited by Luigi Tortellini (edited 12-18-1999).]
>
> IP: Logged
>
> Luigi Tortellini
> Member posted 12-18-1999 01:16 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> So you read through it? Hehehe...
> I want to clarify some more. Then I'll stop, I promise (except to reply to
> replies).
>
> Basically, Cable vs. DSL is a balancing act. The cable guy may offer
> incredibly fast connect speeds, but if there's too many people on, it'll
> suffer at times. Might be better to go with a slower connection (DSL), but
> one that has no bandwidth problems.
>
> If you would like to host races, it's critical that you understand the
> limitations of ADSL and the asymmetric variety of cable. To host reliable
> races with LOTS of players, you need fast upload speeds for them to enjoy
> it. That's why sometimes a fast ADSL connection or even faster cable
> connection still can't host a lot of players at a time without lag and
warp.
>
> The BEST would be a 10Mbps "broadband" (symmetrical/synchronus) cable
> connection with a CIR of 80+. But those are very rare. More common are the
> Asynchronus cable connections that are at the mercy of traffic (low
> CIR)...great at times, not so great at others. In this case, a quality
SDSL
> connection/CIR 80+, even with lower data transfer speeds of 512, 256,
> 192Kbps would provide the superior hosting connection. The pings wont be
as
> low, but the lag and warp will be lower too.
>
> There's a lot more to consider than simple connection speed.
>
> Ok, enuff said. 8^)
>
>
> IP: Logged
>
> Mortado
> Member posted 12-18-1999 02:27 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> I'll be installing US West's Megabit Deluxe DSL service with 2 static IP
> numbers by the 28th of this month. The flavor of DSL they offer has a
> different name than the one you mention, it's called Rate Adaptive DSL
> (RADSL). Their representative said that my package would give me a
constant
> 256 kb up and 272 kb down. I didn't know to ask for a CIR value so I don't
> know what that would be. I would think that it's pretty reliable though,
as
> my friend down the street hosts a 12 player Quake 3 server (unfortunately
I
> can't get him into racing sims) and it's stable as heck. I look forward to
> finding out how many people I can host N3 races with, my guess will be 10
to
> 12. I'll be using the Cisco 675 external modem rather than the internal
> varieties in case I feel like networking my systems. I chose US West for
my
> ISP because that reduces the total cost to 47 bucks a month. If anyone
else
> is using the same service your comments on hosting/racing are welcome.
> Cable's not available in my neighborhood but even if it was I don't think
> I'd get it. I have (had) a lot of friends using AT&T AtHome who are
swarming
> to DSL like flies to. well, you know. It seems that AT&T is drastically
> oversubscribing and their connection speed tends to drop to that of a
modem
> consistently during peak usuage hours. To heck with that, I say. Even if
> it's not blisteringly fast I'd much rather have a service that gives me a
> steady speed I can rely on.
> Cheers,
> Mortado
>
>
> ------------------------------ Timewarp ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------
> "What is real? Are you certain you know what reality
> is? How do you know at this second you aren't asleep
> in your bed, dreaming that you are here..."
> -The Wizard of Gore
>
> http://www.shadows.com/nascar/index.htm
>
>
> IP: Logged
>
> Luigi Tortellini
> Member posted 12-18-1999 02:46 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Yeah, I didn't mention all the subtle flavors of xDSL. There's HDSL,
RADSL,
> IDSL, on and on...about twenty of them. Each one uses slightly different
> technology, but most fall into either the symmetrical or asymmetrical
> category.
> RADSL is a rather unique beast, and actually pretty cool. It's
asynchronous,
> but does allow for very fast upload when conditions are good. It uses
> carrierless amplitude and phase modulation (CAP). The uplink rate depends
on
> the downlink rate, which is a function of line conditions and signal to
> noise ratio (SNR). It's a "dynamic" connection, that changes on-the-fly
when
> line signal varibles change. So in times of rainy weather (causing
> cross-talk and voltage degradation), or really heavy phone network use,
> it'll adjust (slow down) the upload speed to compensate, and hopefully
boost
> the download rate some.
>
> For the amount of money you're going to pay, that's a great deal. Consider
> yourself fortunate!
>
> IP: Logged
>
> David Jr
> Member posted 12-18-1999 02:56 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> So if I were to ask a guy that about my type of cable in the area, what
> would i ask? i can get cable here, but not DSL. Should I ask if it is
> "broadband" or what? If it is of the "cheap" way done, do you think they
> would give me info on what the number of subscribers are in the area?
thanks
> for the help, and by the way, I would be asking ATT@home, if that helps
you
> any. Also, if it helps you any, I am living in one of the fastest growing
> areas in the US, in Northen Colorado.
> Oh, also, how can i find out what is available in my area, for all DSL
> services, it may be and I am just to dumb to not know, so where could I go
> to find out? Thanks!
>
> David Jr.
>
> [This message has been edited by David Jr (edited 12-18-1999).]
>
> IP: Logged
>
> Luigi Tortellini
> Member posted 12-18-1999 03:13 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> David,
> Ask them first if it's "broadband". They might offer both synchronus and
> asynchronus types, at different pricing. But more likely, they're only
going
> to offer one type.
> Remember, it's what you're wanting to do with the connection that matters.
> If you want to be able to host big races, you'll certainly need broadband
> cable. But the asynchronus version, with it's slower upload speed, will
> still provide great gameplay for YOU on other peoples' servers. It just
> won't make a great connection for hosting.
>
> Ask them to tell you about their setup. Ask, "Is this service integrated
> into the existing cableTV system, with another frequency band allocated on
> the existing lines? (Bad) Or is your system setup with a second cable
plant
> for upstream data handling?" (Good).
>
> If they say they've got broadband (synchronous) connections and another
> cable plant, then you'll do GREAT. You'll also likely pay a pretty penny.
If
> they say it's asynchronus and integrated into the existing lines, be wary
of
> it. The price will also be reduced (hopefully). Then you should ask them
> pointed questions like "Are you planning on overselling your product and
> choking up the performance", at which point you'll probably get some
silence
> from the guy on the other end, followed by a nice corporate statement like
> "We are dedicated to providing our customers the best internet access
> available in your area." Barf.
>
> This isn't to say you won't like it. Jeez, ANYTHING is better than a
regular
> dial-up modem, and most folks are very happy with their cable service in
> comparison. But make sure the extra cost is worth it to you.
>
> IP: Logged
>
> Luigi Tortellini
> Member posted 12-18-1999 03:21 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Sorry David, forgot to answer your question about finding out if DSL is
> available.
> Call your local phone carrier (sounds like AT&T) and ask. Or check their
> corporate website...some carriers have a feature on their websites that
let
> you put in your phone number to check if DSL is available.
>
>
> Also, even if they don't offer it, a third-party company like JATO
> communications may offer the service...they pay the carrier a fee to use
> their phone equipment (which is translated into higher cost for the
> users...bummer). Then they frequently resell this service to a wide array
of
> independent ISP's. To find out, watch for billboards, the local newspaper,
> etc. advertising DSL internet, and contact them.
>
> IP: Logged
>
> David Jr
> Member posted 12-18-1999 03:35 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Thanks for the help! Our telephone provider is US West though.
> So what if the cable company has the "bad" setup here, but not many people
> have the service, would it be a good thing to get? I know for a fact that
no
> one I know has the service. Our town is only about 7000 people, so that
> shouldnt hurt us, but the town that is close to us has 125,000+, but i
> really dont think that many people have the service here, because i have
> seen no advertising for it, except for one flyer in the mail.
>
> I know the service would either be $35 or $40 a month, including modem
> rental, or $29 a month if you have your own modem. So based on those 2
> figures, could you maybe come to an idea of what it is?
>
> Once again, thanks for the help!
>
> David Jr.
>
> IP: Logged
>
> LittleFan
> Member posted 12-18-1999 03:43 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Wow, great posts Luigi. Lots of info and VERY informative. THAT is what
this
> board is all about...
> (note to self, print out this string so I will not get taken to cleaners)
>
>
>
> IP: Logged
>
> Luigi Tortellini
> Member posted 12-18-1999 03:45 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> David. First check out http://www.uswest.com , click on "home services"
> link, and find a link to "Megabit" service. Somewhere on there is a link
to
> check the availability, simply type in your phone number, at it will tell
> you what's available in your area for RADSL, if anything.
> I really can't say what your cable company is offering, though. You'll
need
> to call them, or check and see if they have a website with info. One
thing,
> in many new and growing communities in fine states like Colorado, they
> frequently have the common sense to install their new cable systems with a
> little proactive, intelligent foresight. Meaning they understand the huge
> market for cable internet, and they install a good cable system for it
from
> the ground up. In these situations, you're likely to find those rare cases
> of cable companies providing truly AWESOME internet access (broadband,
very
> fast, and able to handle a growing load). You may be one of them! The only
> way to find out for sure is to call them...
>
> IP: Logged
>
> Mortado
> Member posted 12-18-1999 04:03 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> A quicker route to get to US West's DSL pages is through
> http://www.megaspeed.com
> Mortado
> ------------------
> "What is real? Are you certain you know what reality
> is? How do you know at this second you aren't asleep
> in your bed, dreaming that you are here..."
> -The Wizard of Gore
>
> http://www.shadows.com/nascar/index.htm
>
>
> IP: Logged
>
> David Jr
> Member posted 12-21-1999 04:49 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Heres the deal, i have "broadband" here in my area, great!!!!! I want to
get
> it, i may, but is 39.95 worth it a month? plus, right now you get a month
> free, and free installation, (usually 150 bucks!). So, should I do it?
Well,
> actually, its up to my parents, my mom said yes, my dad, well, he had a
> rough day at work, lol, i hope he will be genorous!!!! So, is this good
for
> me?
> Also, I plan on running a splitter from the adjacent room, and then
running
> the cable to the pc room, i dont think is that hard, we have fished
> everything, we have a HT too, so we know what to do, my qusetion is, will
it
> affect quality of the speed much?
>
> And, what i was told is that how my cable net would work, is the cable
goes
> from my house, to the local neighborhood box, then gets split into the
> "broadband". Is this still good? I know for a fact that no one on my
street
> has it, or anyone, i know no one with it!!!!! So, will my connection
suffer?
> Thanks a lot for the help!
>
> David Jr.
>
> ps DSL is not availiable here, and wont be for a while, or telephone
company
> has a 8 month waiting list just for regualar phone hook ups, lol,
> sooooo....you can see why it wont be!
>
> IP: Logged
>
> David Jr
> Member posted 12-21-1999 04:52 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Heres the deal, i have "broadband" here in my area, great!!!!! I want to
get
> it, i may, but is 39.95 worth it a month? plus, right now you get a month
> free, and free installation, (usually 150 bucks!). So, should I do it?
Well,
> actually, its up to my parents, my mom said yes, my dad, well, he had a
> rough day at work, lol, i hope he will be genorous!!!! So, is this good
for
> me?
> Also, I plan on running a splitter from the adjacent room, and then
running
> the cable to the pc room, i dont think is that hard, we have fished
> everything, we have a HT too, so we know what to do, my qusetion is, will
it
> affect quality of the speed much?
>
> And, what i was told is that how my cable net would work, is the cable
goes
> from my house, to the local neighborhood box, then gets split into the
> "broadband". Is this still good? I know for a fact that no one on my
street
> has it, or anyone, i know no one with it!!!!! So, will my connection
suffer?
> Thanks a lot for the help!
>
> David Jr.
>
> ps DSL is not availiable here, and wont be for a while, or telephone
company
> has a 8 month waiting list just for regualar phone hook ups, lol,
> sooooo....you can see why it wont be!
>
>
>
>
>
