Re: OT Did TG or John Mennard ruin Indy?

On Tue, 30 May 2000 01:28:53 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > FWIW, Mennard committed to the stock block program and then that >program was given lots of boost to make it competitive. Arie Luyendyck >ran Q laps 10 to 15 mph faster than the race pace...what good is a fast >Qualifying car if it can't maintain at least some resemblance of it's >speed during racing conditions. I still remember the record breaking >Mennards going backwards at the green flag. I heard the Menard Buicks several times at Indy in the race, qualifying and practice. MAN they sounded *fine*. Youre right though, they didn't last very long.

Hmmmm.......

good points... pez Dave Henrie wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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> Ok Black Helicopter fans chew on these items. > > I think John Mennard is more responsible for the ruination of Indy >than the guy who owns the track. Why? >First we go back BEFORE the split. >John Mennard team's can't match the budgets of the other Cart squads. >In fact he can't or won't afford to compete in the whole season, just >one race(Indy) Now his shops are at the track right?(or nearby.) >Somehow he convinced the guy who inherited the track to allow >non-competition motors in the race. From that we got the Buick Stock >Block that Mennard attempted to race for years. Trouble was it was >SLOW, a *&$(( pig. So Mennard got that guy whose Mom slept with the >previous owner of the track to write new rules that allowed the Stock >blocks HUGE advantages in Turbo boost. But Mennard still couldn't win. >His cars were incredibly fast, but sucked fuel like an Aussie footie >player downs Fosters. and they broke. Best ever finish for the Buick >was 3rd by Al Unser Sr.(I also think that was the first time one made >the whole 500 miles) But before Mennard can get more new rules from the >guy whose step father used to put on the Greatest Spectacle in Motor >Racing, Roger Penske and Mario Illen of Ilmor came in and showed Mennard >and the rest of the world just how to properly design, build, and race a >pushrod motor. Result? Once again Mennard is outspent and can't keep >up. Within weeks, rules are in place to ban purpose built pushrods...so >what is Mennard to do? > The other league is started. Team Mennard gets the first Chassis as >they are the offcial testing team for the league. They get the first >motors, and they run hundreds of laps before anyone else even see's the >bill for their cars. With Tony Stewart he has a brilliant driver, and a >far bigger budget than most of the other startups. He has every >opportunity to win not only indy but every freek'n race in the series. >Yet how many races at indy has Team Mennard won? Sure they sit on the >pole, even back in the CART days they could sit on pole, but come the >end of the day....it's not Team Mennard drinking the milk. Stewart wins >the drivers title in the 2nd or 3rd season...and Grey Ray last year,but >thats it. > Now that Gannassi has spanked the IRLers, what new changes will >Mennard ask for from the guy who brought F1 to an INFIELD COURSE? >What hold does Mennard have over that guy? What is his power to get >everything crafted to personaly benefit himself at the cost of two >series going down the toliet? >dave henrie

Actually, for me, this was the first 500 since the split, that was anywhere near interesting. Yeah, I was pulling for Ganassi's boys. Although it would have been better had they mixed it up with Menard's guys a little more.

Hmmmm.......

Ok Black Helicopter fans chew on these items. I think John Mennard is more responsible for the ruination of Indy than the guy who owns the track. Why? First we go back BEFORE the split. John Mennard team's can't match the budgets of the other Cart squads. In fact he can't or won't afford to compete in the whole season, just one race(Indy) Now his shops are at the track right?(or nearby.) Somehow he convinced the guy who inherited the track to allow non-competition motors in the race. From that we got the Buick Stock Block that Mennard attempted to race for years. Trouble was it was SLOW, a *&$(( pig. So Mennard got that guy whose Mom slept with the previous owner of the track to write new rules that allowed the Stock blocks HUGE advantages in Turbo boost. But Mennard still couldn't win. His cars were incredibly fast, but sucked fuel like an Aussie footie player downs Fosters. and they broke. Best ever finish for the Buick was 3rd by Al Unser Sr.(I also think that was the first time one made the whole 500 miles) But before Mennard can get more new rules from the guy whose step father used to put on the Greatest Spectacle in Motor Racing, Roger Penske and Mario Illen of Ilmor came in and showed Mennard and the rest of the world just how to properly design, build, and race a pushrod motor. Result? Once again Mennard is outspent and can't keep up. Within weeks, rules are in place to ban purpose built pushrods...so what is Mennard to do? The other league is started. Team Mennard gets the first Chassis as they are the offcial testing team for the league. They get the first motors, and they run hundreds of laps before anyone else even see's the bill for their cars. With Tony Stewart he has a brilliant driver, and a far bigger budget than most of the other startups. He has every opportunity to win not only indy but every freek'n race in the series. Yet how many races at indy has Team Mennard won? Sure they sit on the pole, even back in the CART days they could sit on pole, but come the end of the day....it's not Team Mennard drinking the milk. Stewart wins the drivers title in the 2nd or 3rd season...and Grey Ray last year,but thats it. Now that Gannassi has spanked the IRLers, what new changes will Mennard ask for from the guy who brought F1 to an INFIELD COURSE? What hold does Mennard have over that guy? What is his power to get everything crafted to personaly benefit himself at the cost of two series going down the toliet? dave henrie

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> > I think John Mennard is more responsible for the ruination of Indy > >than the guy who owns the track. Why? > >First we go back BEFORE the split. > >John Mennard team's can't match the budgets of the other Cart squads. > >In fact he can't or won't afford to compete in the whole season, just > >one race(Indy) Now his shops are at the track right?(or nearby.) > >Somehow he convinced the guy who inherited the track to allow > >non-competition motors in the race. From that we got the Buick Stock

Well A lot of CART teams are still based in Indy. Team TG is for one. Stock blocks have been legal for a long time. Gurney for years was trying to make a smal block chevy competitive, and I think the Buick motor had more boost for a long time, but Meynard was the only guy to really try to develop the motor with Buicks help. It was a pretty good motor just needed more work to finish a race or in Al Sr. case a driver who could use to motor properly. > >Block that Mennard attempted to race for years. Trouble was it was > >SLOW, a *&$(( pig. So Mennard got that guy whose Mom slept with the > >previous owner of the track to write new rules that allowed the Stock > >blocks HUGE advantages in Turbo boost. But Mennard still couldn't win. > >His cars were incredibly fast, but sucked fuel like an Aussie footie > >player downs Fosters. and they broke. Best ever finish for the Buick Again the Buicks had more boost for a while no one developed them.

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> >was 3rd by Al Unser Sr.(I also think that was the first time one made > >the whole 500 miles) But before Mennard can get more new rules from the > >guy whose step father used to put on the Greatest Spectacle in Motor > >Racing, Roger Penske and Mario Illen of Ilmor came in and showed Mennard > >and the rest of the world just how to properly design, build, and race a > >pushrod motor. Result? Once again Mennard is outspent and can't keep > >up. Within weeks, rules are in place to ban purpose built pushrods...so > >what is Mennard to do?

Roger did take advantage or a loophole when they built the pushrod motor. It would have been easy to take care of the problem since it should have been stock block and heads.

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> > The other league is started. Team Mennard gets the first Chassis as > >they are the offcial testing team for the league. They get the first > >motors, and they run hundreds of laps before anyone else even see's the > >bill for their cars. With Tony Stewart he has a brilliant driver, and a > >far bigger budget than most of the other startups. He has every > >opportunity to win not only indy but every freek'n race in the series. > >Yet how many races at indy has Team Mennard won? Sure they sit on the > >pole, even back in the CART days they could sit on pole, but come the > >end of the day....it's not Team Mennard drinking the milk. Stewart wins > >the drivers title in the 2nd or 3rd season...and Grey Ray last year,but > >thats it. > > Now that Gannassi has spanked the IRLers, what new changes will > >Mennard ask for from the guy who brought F1 to an INFIELD COURSE? > >What hold does Mennard have over that guy? What is his power to get > >everything crafted to personaly benefit himself at the cost of two > >series going down the toliet? > >dave henrie >

Well Meynard was part of the splt, but Foyt is the guy who sealed it. Reason being if he would not have gone with the IRL it would not have had any credibilty. with him the series had something since A.J. is a good racer. Having won Lemans, in Stock Cars, in Champ Cars, both dirt and pavement he put creditbility to the series. After Brack left to CART tho it had to hurt the series. Its kinda like Zanardi leaving to move up to F1. The CART has always been bascially a North American series with its ruts here. F1 has been for a long time known as an international series since the 50s. CART is growing into a international series wiith its races in South America, Japan and in Aussie. IRL is ment to only be a National series. If you look at it this way then It will always be the F1 then CART and then the IRL. Problem is the IRL has the oldest running race in the USA. In time it will be degraded more. I buddy of mine ended up giving up his tickets to the Nascar race there since they were pressuring him to get indy 500 tickets. Well 10 years ago that would have never happened. For Tony having the CART teams there fills the seats, so he will probly want them back even tho it really showed how much the IRL teams need to raise their game. Yes Greg did repass Juan for the lead, but Juan passed him back very quickly in a move that made everyone, but Juan and Chip scared. Yes Buddy did start to real him in near the end, but was Juan just out there pedaling the car to the finish. I think if Buddy would have gotten any closer you would have seen Juan put the hammer down and seen what he could really do. He did it in a few spots and well after seeing the rear end wiggle thru turn one and he caught showed how much control he has over the car. Infact most guys in practise stuffed it with the car wiggling less then his did. Hopefully the fans will vote with their feet and attend more CART races and less IRL since Juan was the guy to realy watch this weekend. Dave

<snipped> One irrelevant correction - I think you'll find that Fosters is not popular with Aussie football players, nor with the Australian population in general. However, point taken ;) -Nick

>> By a longshot the richest man in open-wheel racing in North America >> and he can't match the budgets of the CART squads?! >> > His personal wealth is not in dispute...if wealth were the only >criteria, then Bruce McCaw and Penske would clean up in CART. But his Out of curiousity, how DID Menard make his fortune? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Mon, 29 May 2000 14:49:39 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > Ok Black Helicopter fans chew on these items. > > I think John Mennard is more responsible for the ruination of Indy >than the guy who owns the track. Why? >First we go back BEFORE the split. >John Mennard team's can't match the budgets of the other Cart squads. By a longshot the richest man in open-wheel racing in North America and he can't match the budgets of the CART squads?! Better check Forbes... only 2 people in north american open-wheel racing make the list. Mary Fendrich Hulman and John Menard. Roger Penske, Chip Ganassi et al weren't not-listed.

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>In fact he can't or won't afford to compete in the whole season, just >one race(Indy) Now his shops are at the track right?(or nearby.) >Somehow he convinced the guy who inherited the track to allow >non-competition motors in the race. From that we got the Buick Stock >Block that Mennard attempted to race for years. Trouble was it was >SLOW, a *&$(( pig. So Mennard got that guy whose Mom slept with the >previous owner of the track to write new rules that allowed the Stock

--cut-- > Now that Gannassi has spanked the IRLers, what new changes will >Mennard ask for from the guy who brought F1 to an INFIELD COURSE? >What hold does Mennard have over that guy? What is his power to get >everything crafted to personaly benefit himself at the cost of two >series going down the toliet? >dave henrie Menard ran the CART season last year with driver Robby Gordon. John Menard wants to win Indy under his own rules. I don't understand the logic behind it. He will probably hire a team of bodybuilders for his pitcrew next year. ----------- "My dispute is with the IRL. I will not support the IRL because I think that's what has disrupted open-wheel racing in America for us. I mean, we are pulling in different directions and that doesn't make sense." -- Mario Andretti, May 2000 Juan Montoya tells the truth about the Indianapolis Motor Speedway http://espn.go.com/media/2000/q2/car_000517jm1a.wav Oval racing is 98% engineering and 2% driver talent. Al Unser Jr: The Indy Retirement League Poster-Boy http://www.speedcenter.com/gallery/gallery98/13midohio/need_an_ashtray_here480.jpg

Speedy Fast wrote:

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> > On Mon, 29 May 2000 14:49:39 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Ok Black Helicopter fans chew on these items. > > > > I think John Mennard is more responsible for the ruination of Indy > >than the guy who owns the track. Why? > >First we go back BEFORE the split. > >John Mennard team's can't match the budgets of the other Cart squads. > > By a longshot the richest man in open-wheel racing in North America > and he can't match the budgets of the CART squads?! >

His personal wealth is not in dispute...if wealth were the only criteria, then Bruce McCaw and Penske would clean up in CART. But his ability to find national sponsors to support his team has alway seemed lacking. That was AJ Foyt's biggest problem. Cart race after Cart race he'd claim they didn't have enough resources to test... Yet the other teams always seemed to. FWIW, Mennard committed to the stock block program and then that program was given lots of boost to make it competitive. Arie Luyendyck ran Q laps 10 to 15 mph faster than the race pace...what good is a fast Qualifying car if it can't maintain at least some resemblance of it's speed during racing conditions. I still remember the record breaking Mennards going backwards at the green flag. > Better check Forbes... only 2 people in north american open-wheel > racing make the list. Mary Fendrich Hulman and John Menard. > Roger Penske, Chip Ganassi et al weren't not-listed. Once again it is the level of sponsorhsip dollars that raise some teams above others.

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> > >In fact he can't or won't afford to compete in the whole season, just > >one race(Indy) Now his shops are at the track right?(or nearby.) > >Somehow he convinced the guy who inherited the track to allow > >non-competition motors in the race. From that we got the Buick Stock > >Block that Mennard attempted to race for years. Trouble was it was > >SLOW, a *&$(( pig. So Mennard got that guy whose Mom slept with the > >previous owner of the track to write new rules that allowed the Stock > --cut-- > > > Now that Gannassi has spanked the IRLers, what new changes will > >Mennard ask for from the guy who brought F1 to an INFIELD COURSE? > >What hold does Mennard have over that guy? What is his power to get > >everything crafted to personaly benefit himself at the cost of two > >series going down the toliet? > >dave henrie > > Menard ran the CART season last year with driver Robby Gordon.

correct, he and Robbie partner'd up, RG ran a team in CART with Mennard backing and Mennard ran his team in the IRL with RG as a part time driver. > > John Menard wants to win Indy under his own rules. I don't understand > the logic behind it. He will probably hire a team of bodybuilders for > his pitcrew next year. No he probably won't hire a bunch of bodybuilders..although AJ's pit crew could use some practice, but what I'm concerned about is the "apparent" pattern of favoritism that a certain track owner has displayed over the years. Why did he gift wrap the Indy 500 for Mennard, and then, when Mennard still couldn't unwrap the bow, did he custom design a NEW league just for JM? Aside from Treadway and AJ are there other teams out there that treat the IRL like a professional sport and not just a club race? dave henrie

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > Ok Black Helicopter fans chew on these items. Please note that it's MENARD not MENNARD. Thank you :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Shouldn't have been VB's instead of Fosters. Then again, I think there are plenty of AFL fans that can drink the players under a table without too much effort. Michael <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8guo1v$1lr1$[email hidden]...

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> <snipped> > > One irrelevant correction - I think you'll find that Fosters is not > popular with Aussie football players, nor with the Australian population > in general. > > However, point taken ;) > > -Nick

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Out of curiousity, how DID Menard make his fortune? John Menard made his fortune by owning a chain of home-improvement stores. More than a hundred stores in Midwest America. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

In article <TBTY4.39$[email hidden]>, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> Out of curiousity, how DID Menard make his fortune? > > >John Menard made his fortune by owning a chain of home-improvement stores. >More than a hundred stores in Midwest America. >

Must be nice...<drool> Ok, thanks. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

It was USAC that wanted stock blocks to be able to compete with pure racing engines. So they let them have a cubic inch advantage to make them equal. The idea being a stock block would be cheaper for the teams. However it has been proven in the past that you have to do a lot more work on a stock block to make it last at racing speeds that in many cases it costs more money that the full racing engine. However USAC never let the mistakes of others (or even their own) keep them from making new and interesting rule changes. The advantage you do get with a stock block is factory $$$$$$$$$. buzard "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Ok Black Helicopter fans chew on these items. > > I think John Mennard is more responsible for the ruination of Indy > than the guy who owns the track. Why? > First we go back BEFORE the split. > John Mennard team's can't match the budgets of the other Cart squads. > In fact he can't or won't afford to compete in the whole season, just > one race(Indy) Now his shops are at the track right?(or nearby.) > Somehow he convinced the guy who inherited the track to allow > non-competition motors in the race. From that we got the Buick Stock > Block that Mennard attempted to race for years. Trouble was it was > SLOW, a *&$(( pig. So Mennard got that guy whose Mom slept with the > previous owner of the track to write new rules that allowed the Stock > blocks HUGE advantages in Turbo boost. But Mennard still couldn't win. > His cars were incredibly fast, but sucked fuel like an Aussie footie > player downs Fosters. and they broke. Best ever finish for the Buick > was 3rd by Al Unser Sr.(I also think that was the first time one made > the whole 500 miles) But before Mennard can get more new rules from the > guy whose step father used to put on the Greatest Spectacle in Motor > Racing, Roger Penske and Mario Illen of Ilmor came in and showed Mennard > and the rest of the world just how to properly design, build, and race a > pushrod motor. Result? Once again Mennard is outspent and can't keep > up. Within weeks, rules are in place to ban purpose built pushrods...so > what is Mennard to do? > The other league is started. Team Mennard gets the first Chassis as > they are the offcial testing team for the league. They get the first > motors, and they run hundreds of laps before anyone else even see's the > bill for their cars. With Tony Stewart he has a brilliant driver, and a > far bigger budget than most of the other startups. He has every > opportunity to win not only indy but every freek'n race in the series. > Yet how many races at indy has Team Mennard won? Sure they sit on the > pole, even back in the CART days they could sit on pole, but come the > end of the day....it's not Team Mennard drinking the milk. Stewart wins > the drivers title in the 2nd or 3rd season...and Grey Ray last year,but > thats it. > Now that Gannassi has spanked the IRLers, what new changes will > Mennard ask for from the guy who brought F1 to an INFIELD COURSE? > What hold does Mennard have over that guy? What is his power to get > everything crafted to personaly benefit himself at the cost of two > series going down the toliet? > dave henrie

Bob Thurman <[email hidden]> wrote in article <ot1Z4.4680$[email hidden]>... > It was USAC that wanted stock blocks to be able to compete with pureracing > engines. So they let them have a cubic inch advantage to make them equal. > The idea being a stock block would be cheaper for the teams. However it > has been proven in the past that you have to do a lot more work on astock > block to make it last at racing speeds that in many cases it costs more > money > that the full racing engine. Not even the old or current IRL motors are true stock blocks. The bore centers are teh same as factory, but that is basically it. Also I would bet since a lot of engine builders are leasing motors in the IRL its not much cheaper. Hell even a strong F Vee motor is over 5 grand these days. Dave

Do remember that TG/IRL mentioned that leasing engines (like CART does) is bad for the teams. They should be able to buy and maintain their own engines because it's cheaper! buzard "David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01bfcb1d$d86bd960$f1d2fc3f@packardbell...

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> > > > Bob Thurman <[email hidden]> wrote in article > <ot1Z4.4680$[email hidden]>... > > It was USAC that wanted stock blocks to be able to compete with pure > racing > > engines. So they let them have a cubic inch advantage to make them

equal.

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> > The idea being a stock block would be cheaper for the teams. However it > > has been proven in the past that you have to do a lot more work on a > stock > > block to make it last at racing speeds that in many cases it costs more > > money > > that the full racing engine. > > Not even the old or current IRL motors are true stock blocks. The bore > centers are teh same as factory, but that is basically it. Also I would > bet since a lot of engine builders are leasing motors in the IRL its not > much cheaper. Hell even a strong F Vee motor is over 5 grand these days. > > Dave

This might not seem to apply at first, but trust me it does. My brother and I were talking about rock groups. I mentioned that it seems like a lot of really good groups hit it big, and then seem to instantly break up. He said he watched a fantastic late night show that had Howard Kalin and Mark Volmer (bad spelling) AKA Flo and Eddie AKA The Turtles. Some really good guys. They talked about how the record label had them under contract as the Turtles and they had to record as Flo and Eddie to move to another label (the artists formerly known as.....). Just as the Turtles were making it big the guy that had the record contract went around to each member of the band. "You are the heart of the group. You don't need these guys. They are just riding you talent. Start your own group, I know some guys that will help you out". So soon the group was spit up and the guy that had the contract has the original contract plus the 3 new groups formed by the members he talked into leaving. Somewhere, somehow, someone slithered up to TG and said "You don't need these guys. You have the Indy 500. These guys are just using you and your track for their own profit and cutting you out.....". And so we now have the IRL! Personally I think this sounds like the real reason the IRL is in existence. What do you think? buzard