New Tire Model on iRacing

Two questions; 1) What do you expect to change with the new tire model? 2) What do you think of the delays in releasing the NW car with the new tire model?

On May 18, 10:49 am, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> wrote: > Two questions; 1) What do you expect to change with the new tire > model?  2) What do you think of the delays in releasing the NW car > with the new tire model? hi gay pat. you pay for that crap? fool

> > Two questions; 1) What do you expect to change with the new tire > > model?  2) What do you think of the delays in releasing the NW car > > with the new tire model? Guess I'll answer them myself... #2 first - I'm kind of ticked about the delay. My subscription ran out months ago. I renewed over the weekend based on the news that they would release this week. I figured since they missed getting it inot the build last week, they'd surely get it out by now. So yea, I have no interest in running anything else, so renewing was a waste of money. #1 - What I expect is that a neutral setup should now be competitive. Right now, to be competitive, you *have* to set the car up to turn off the outside rear tire. The rear tire is carrying a ton of slip angle, while the front tire is experiencing almost no significant lateral force or slip angle. That is the only way to be competitive. I want a setup that is neutral steering to be competitive, like in real life.

On May 18, 2:20 pm, Penis Boy <[email hidden]> wrote: > hi gay pat. you pay for that crap? fool Hi hetero penis boy! I kind of agree. It was foolish to pay for this crap when what I wanted isn't available yet. I console myself with the idea that at least I don't have to scour the sim racing forums for news on when it is released. That will save me web surfing time, which is worth a few bucks I guess...

[email hidden] (Pat Dotson) wrote: > #2 first - I'm kind of ticked about the delay. Well, tyre models are notoriously tricky, so I'm not too concerned about the delay. However I am concerned that both iRacing and a significant chunk of the membership seem to think this will be some kind of revolution. Hence this "2.0" claptrap, which is setting themselves up for a fall IMO. Personally I think iRacing are a very nice, well intentioned, and pretty talented bunch of complete chancers, and are a little out of their depth as they struggle to work out why the simming world isn't as hardcore as they hoped or want it to be. And they are determined to tie themselves in knots trying to find a compromise which suits everyone. And suiting everyone is impossible, so they'd better get used to tempting us back with discounts, because that's far more important than any new tyre model could be. IMO anyway. But then I am notoriously divided on the whole iRacing project. Love the cars and tracks, complete and utter sceptic on the whole marketed sport thing. I rejoined on Saturday in time to watch their servers fall apart under the strain of their pre-Indy test race. It was pretty impressive, if you like watching sites grind to a halt. But then I did always say I was a member for the entertainment rather than the racing, and I'm rarely disappointed. Anyway, I think DK should announce that he's putting back the tyre model for at least another season. Do it right rather than on time. They have to tweak each vehicle it's added to rather than some overall "master model" onto which individual car specs are overlaid, so I'll be impressed if they manage to get the Nationwide debugged by the end of this season (they're bound to miss something), and the announced Skip upgrade will probably get set back much further. Then again they could both come out tomorrow and be totally and unexpectedly brilliant. All I know for sure though is that the ImpB Fixed races are on hold, and they were my favourite way of earning a quick & easy $7 participation bonus. So I am sulking. Of course sulking is my natural condition when subscribed, so some things never change, :-) Andrew McP

andrew youre chatty like a ho baby

[email hidden] (Penis Boy) wrote: > andrew youre chatty like a ho baby I'm struggling with your grammar, dear boy. Is it chatty like the baby of a ho? In which case this particular ho has clearly been reproducing with a pretty articulate set of genes and I'm flattered by the comparison. Unless, of course, the babies of hos are inclined to babble on account of crack addiction inherited from the mother via placental osmosis. Or is it "chatty like a ho, baby" wherein the implication is that I am conversationally loose to an extreme wherein a casual passer by might mistake me for someone of loose moral virtue with an inclination to stand on street corners letting the world know my business at great length. In which case I am less flattered, but probably banged to rights. Andrew McP

On May 20, 6:23 am, [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote:

Quoted text (18 lines)

> [email hidden] (Penis Boy) wrote: > > andrew youre chatty like a ho baby > > I'm struggling with your grammar, dear boy. Is it chatty like the baby of a ho? In > which case this particular ho has clearly been reproducing with a pretty articulate > set of genes and I'm flattered by the comparison. > > Unless, of course, the babies of hos are inclined to babble on account of crack > addiction inherited from the mother via placental osmosis. > > Or is it "chatty like a ho, baby" wherein the implication is that I am > conversationally loose to an extreme wherein a casual passer by might mistake me > for someone of loose moral virtue with an inclination to stand on street corners > letting the world know my business at great length. > > In which case I am less flattered, but probably banged to rights. > > Andrew McP

andy you sound like a fruity limey, would the Jocko be correct?

On May 19, 9:26 am, [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: > Well, tyre models are notoriously tricky, so I'm not too concerned about the delay. Tires are not so tricky to characterize that trickiness explains the complete lack of fidelity in iRacing. It's been three years. The problems were evident to me within days of joining beta, and I did not shy away from pointing them out. IMO, there are other developers have done a better job at characterizing the performance envelope of tires, and they did it before iRacing ever went beta. > And they are determined to tie themselves in knots trying to find a compromise > which suits everyone. Compromising is what the entire membership of iRacing have been doing up to now. It's not about catering to the expectations of a particular sect of sim-racers. It's about striving to achieve what the marketing department at iRacing were promoting, which is a simulator worthy of use as a training tool for real racers. To be fair, iRacing has succeeded beyond my expectations in certain aspects of the simulation. They have ruined me for any other simulation with their tracks. I also have no complaints at all about the overall race competition system. I'd say they have exceeded expectation in that department as well. But where the rubber literally (or, virtually) meets the road, the current iRacing experience is disappointing. > And suiting everyone is impossible, so they'd better get used to tempting us back > with discounts, because that's far more important than any new tyre model could be. For me, no amount if discounting is going to keep me around long-term with the current simulation. I went cold-turkey for four months without even a slight desire to re-join. The only thing that pulled me back in were the promises of the imminent release of the new tire model. So they got my money.... where is the new tire model? This falls under the heading of "fool me once". I won't do it again. So, at least for this charter subscriber, the new tire model is *critical* to iRacing getting any more of my money. The quality of the new tire model is critical to getting any more than about another $12 out of me. If the NTM doesn't produce immediate results, I'm not sitting around paying for another year or two waiting for it to mature. > Then again they could both come out tomorrow and be totally and unexpectedly > brilliant. They could. I hope that happens. The thing is, I don't think it takes brilliance to make the cars respond in a somewhat reasonable way. I'm mystified as to why we are three years in with no change to the "sim-style" of driving you have to use to be competitive. Directly to my question #1; what do I expect from the NTM?: Did you see the post-race interviews from Charlotte this past weekend? Specifically, Kyle Bush's comments after getting passed by Carl Edwards near the end of the race? Bush commented on how his car was getting loose enough that when he would get on the gas he had to "turn into" the turn. The speed he was losing by doing that allowed Edwards to pass him with a tighter car. Isn't this exactly how the iRacing cars have to be driven? You either setup up the car so that you "turn into it" when getting on the gas and be competitive, or you set the car up to be neutral and be a mid- packer. The answer is simple. No brilliance required. When a car gets loose, the tires create enough drag in the form of rolling resistance that the car is slower than if it were neutral. So the answer is to adjust the tire model parameters to increase drag at higher slip angles. That's all it takes to allow a neutral setup to be competitive with a loose setup. I fail to believe that the current tire model is not comprehensive enough to allow for that sort of adjustment. So the question is, why hasn't that adjustment been made to the current tire model? The poeple at iRacing are smart enough to understand this. I'm really starting to think that there is an ingrained resistance to the idea of driving cars in a simulator the way they are driven in real life. It seems as though many sim racers think that driving a loose car is more fun, and feels faster. Is iRacing catering to that belief to the detriment of the fidelity of the driving experience? What if the new tire model requires a controlled driving style to be competitve, such that the old drifting style of sim-driving is relegated to mid-pack? How would that affect iRacing's subscription numbers?

<- snip snip -> Thanks for that insightful post, Pat. I haven't missed iracing a day since my subscription ran out (six months after first public "offering"), and I didn't even notice the shortcomings of the NTM as I hardly ran in any oval races. Add to that the fact that most, if not all professional racing teams base their simulators on a competing product and you have a pretty compelling reason to believe that something is inherently flawed with iR's TM, ATM ;-). Cheers, Uwe

this pat fruit is one long winded bastard

Penis Boy: > this pat fruit is one long winded bastard Easy, Penis. The new tyre model is a joke. They pursuit in the wrong direction. They will get somewhere like that, ok, but NOT where the simracers want it, into a REALISTIC driving. I researched FFB a lot, and right now I am near the end of that research (with the old tyre model). There are a lot of problems with FFB. First, the USB line is all dirty and messy, you got to clean it up. Second, there is latency problem (you adjust that with the "cockpitLookDeadZone" in the app.ini file). Then it has to have the PERFECT perspective to work right (of course, different perspective gives different proportions). You adjust that with the FOV (unfortunatelly iRacing cannot adjsut finer than the whole degree), and with the "DrivingVanishY" (VERY important) in the app.ini file. It is hard to expect from the sim community to spend hours to adjust all this. I am comfident, though, that tools can be developed to help them with that, and even that FFB program within itself can be adjusted to accomodate different FOVs (simply, too wide FOV is lateraly compressed, and longitudionaly stretched, and with too narrow FOV is the opposite, so you simply adjust FFB parameters to those situations). Well because of that, iRacing tried to simplify thinghs by just using the NON-FFB effect of Centering Spring. But this CANNOT be done realistically. This is why I use the old tyre model (which actually is "THE REAL" tyre model, all that iRacing added is actually pretty fake, and reminds me on the simracing before GPL, actually), with "Allow game to adjust settings" unchecked. So they tried to adjust *their* FFB to that, i.e. soften those unrealistical effects, to make them more forgiving (this is what checking the "Allow..." brings to the old tyre model, softening some effects which were troublesome with thair approach). This new "tyre model" is just a new step in that, WRONG direction. Now FFB works well with all the FFB effects on (Damper and Spring), but ONLY with "Allow..." checked. With "Allow..." unchecked it shows its real character, though. All in all, the driving experience is much poorer and simplified, compared to the old tyre model, which deffinitelly is the step in the wrong direction. This way they (iRacing) can CONTROL the behaviour of the cars on the computers without the perfect perspective and with other above-mentioned problems, better, and possibly even please some funs of racing, compiting on a computer, but in its nature is nothing more than finely tuned ARCADE way of GAMING, this has nothing to do with the real simulation. And what direction iRacing is going on? Well, John Henry is a sport impresario, he wanted to start the new sport, in which he will be the boss. Well, smart idea, the only thing is that iRacing is going the wrong direction. They should try to OVERCOME difficulties on their way (i.e., develop tools to help simracers adjsut PROPER perspective, and other hardware), and not to do shortcuts, which puts them along with other arcade style of competition, and we have plenty of that, now. This ISN'T *simracing*. Mario

Do they want to make an accurate racing simulator, or do they want to make money? Making a simulated racing car harder to drive won't make more money. And opening up the parameters won't make money either, because the tiny, tiny race sim world depends on unity rather than fragmenting right now... I'd like 'em to make a tire model without any kind of compromise, and offer it to those willing to use it, but I guess maintaining two tire models and serve races on both "platforms" will be too expensive for iRacing... -A- On 18.05.2011 16:49, * Pat Dotson wrote: > Two questions; 1) What do you expect to change with the new tire > model? 2) What do you think of the delays in releasing the NW car > with the new tire model?

The NTM is out now, but I'll pick up on some of these older comments... On Jul 1, 3:41 am, Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote: > Do they want to make an accurate racing simulator, or do they want to > make money? Both, I'm sure. > Making a simulated racing car harder to drive won't make more money. IMO a realistic tire model will be easier to drive, not harder. I think the NTM is easier. I think the cars were harder to drive with the OTM the way you had to slide them around. Well, let me restate that. It's not that you couldn't create a setup that felt somewhat like a real car. It's that driving the OTM as if it were a real car would be .5 to 1 second off the pace on ovals, and even more on road courses. So far, I'm really happy with how the cars drive. I find no advantage to sliding the cars, or otherwise driving them in what I'd consider a blatantly unrealistic way. I haven't seen much complaint on the iR forums about secondary issues, as compared to the primary issue of how the cars actually drive. Most of the whining is about the performance fall-off curve of the tires, or some other aspect that doesn't affect the way you turn the steering wheel and work the pedals at any particular moment. > I'd like 'em to make a tire model without any kind of compromise, and > offer it to those willing to use it, but I guess maintaining two tire > models and serve races on both "platforms" will be too expensive for > iRacing... Well, like I said, a realistic tire should be easier to drive than the OTM. So far I think the NTM mostly fulfills this expectation. Pat

On Jun 9, 2:31 pm, Penis Boy <[email hidden]> wrote: > this pat fruit is one long winded bastard You had me at "Hello".