Re: fuzzy logic why GPL cars slide

On Mon, 22 May 2000 23:44:38 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can >slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive >the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all >over too? Because when you watch actual race footage of GPL era cars, it's not happening... right? Tim

This is a bit of a stretch...but.... I watched the Speedvision special called "Victory by Design" which is essentially a fluff piece by Alan DeCadney about all the various Porche racing cars. (he also did one on Ferrari...lucky sot...gets to drive dozens of Prancing Ponies and Stuttgarde vondercars) Anyhow, the show got to the part about the 917's, those glorious Le Mans type racers of the eary 70's. Now I'm pretty sure they didn't have ground effects yet...and one of it's drivers(Brian Redman) was quoted in a magazine saying the 917 was a HUGELY unstable racer...fast but twitchy...hmmm where was I? OH yes...917's and why GPL cars did indeed slide. They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa. on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the hill, he only caught it just before the track turned back to the left at the top. Now this 917 had an aerodynamic nose which had to produce SOME sort of downforce and a couple of horizontal tail fins on the rear. These too must have contributed to the downforce effect. Yet the car was sliding all the way up the hill. Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all over too? dave henrie

Hope you don't mind. I emailed my Kyalami hotlap to you - it's only 180K. It's only 26th fastest in the World, but it's the fastest lap submitted by an American. BTW, I assume that by "sliding", you mean hanging the rear of the car out, using opposite lock to control it. GPL hotlap drivers do slide, but it's a four wheel drift. On my lap, I don't use opposite lock anywhere on the track. In fact, I tend to use excessive positive lock. ANYTIME I have to use opposite lock to catch a slide in GPL, my lap time is lower. -- Pat Dotson David G Fisher wrote: > > I should of said that they didn't slide like they do in GPL while running > the same lap times. > > Where are these replays? http://www.parc-ferme.de/fastlaps.htm

David G Fisher wrote: > > The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even older cars), > they didn't slide like they do in GPL. But they _could_ slide like that, if they wanted to. But sliding like that is not the fast way around the track in real life, or in GPL. Ignore the replays shipped with GPL, and look at some of the record hot laps available on the web. Those guys slide very little. Again, '67 F1 cars can and did slide, just like they can and do in GPL. A good and fast driver, though, won't usually slide like that, either in GPL or in real life. -- PD

Cars in 1967 did slide, either in the classic 'four wheel drift', or because the driver went slightly over the limit. The big difference between real life and GPL is that generally speaking, a sliding car is a slower car, so the drivers held the car on the very edge all the time. That is what you are seeing in your video. Get some more video's and you will quickly see plenty of them getting it wrong, or indeed, doing it on purpose just to get around a corner. Steve David G Fisher wrote in message ...

Quoted text (8 lines)

>The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is >because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even older cars), >they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the drivers seemed >to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've >seen on TV. > >David G Fisher >

You are thinking about the CanAm 917's, dave is talking abou the sportscars, they had about 600Bhp from a 5.0L engine, and some downforce indeed, as the upwrds slope of the rear deck on a 917K was THE change that made the cars drivable compared to it's '69 brethren. Sudesh Thomas JS Brown wrote:

Quoted text (37 lines)

> > The 917 was an extremely lightweight car with something in the > neighborhood of 1200 or 1300 bhp. Mark Donohue was nearly killed testing > one, when the chassis snapped in two and tumbled to bits. The frame was > made of aluminum tubes and was known to have produced a lot of > impalement injuries (and deaths if I remember correctly) when serious > accidents occurred. Donohue described being able to get wheelspin in all > gears even while going in a straight line. Squirrley car? you bet. > > TJSB > > Dave Henrie wrote: > > > > This is a bit of a stretch...but.... > > > > I watched the Speedvision special called "Victory by Design" which is > > essentially a fluff piece by Alan DeCadney about all the various Porche > > racing cars. (he also did one on Ferrari...lucky sot...gets to drive > > dozens of Prancing Ponies and Stuttgarde vondercars) > > Anyhow, the show got to the part about the 917's, those glorious > > Le Mans type racers of the eary 70's. Now I'm pretty sure they didn't > > have ground effects yet...and one of it's drivers(Brian Redman) was > > quoted in a magazine saying the 917 was a HUGELY unstable racer...fast > > but twitchy...hmmm where was I? OH yes...917's and why GPL cars did > > indeed slide. > > They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa. > > on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the > > hill, he only caught it just before the track turned back to the left at > > the top. Now this 917 had an aerodynamic nose which had to produce SOME > > sort of downforce and a couple of horizontal tail fins on the rear. > > These too must have contributed to the downforce effect. Yet the car > > was sliding all the way up the hill. > > Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can > > slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive > > the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all > > over too? > > dave henrie

The 917 was an extremely lightweight car with something in the neighborhood of 1200 or 1300 bhp. Mark Donohue was nearly killed testing one, when the chassis snapped in two and tumbled to bits. The frame was made of aluminum tubes and was known to have produced a lot of impalement injuries (and deaths if I remember correctly) when serious accidents occurred. Donohue described being able to get wheelspin in all gears even while going in a straight line. Squirrley car? you bet. TJSB Dave Henrie wrote:

Quoted text (25 lines)

> > This is a bit of a stretch...but.... > > I watched the Speedvision special called "Victory by Design" which is > essentially a fluff piece by Alan DeCadney about all the various Porche > racing cars. (he also did one on Ferrari...lucky sot...gets to drive > dozens of Prancing Ponies and Stuttgarde vondercars) > Anyhow, the show got to the part about the 917's, those glorious > Le Mans type racers of the eary 70's. Now I'm pretty sure they didn't > have ground effects yet...and one of it's drivers(Brian Redman) was > quoted in a magazine saying the 917 was a HUGELY unstable racer...fast > but twitchy...hmmm where was I? OH yes...917's and why GPL cars did > indeed slide. > They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa. > on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the > hill, he only caught it just before the track turned back to the left at > the top. Now this 917 had an aerodynamic nose which had to produce SOME > sort of downforce and a couple of horizontal tail fins on the rear. > These too must have contributed to the downforce effect. Yet the car > was sliding all the way up the hill. > Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can > slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive > the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all > over too? > dave henrie

Thomas JS Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in article <[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> The 917 was an extremely lightweight car with something in the > neighborhood of 1200 or 1300 bhp. Mark Donohue was nearly killed testing > one, when the chassis snapped in two and tumbled to bits. The frame was > made of aluminum tubes and was known to have produced a lot of > impalement injuries (and deaths if I remember correctly) when serious > accidents occurred. Donohue described being able to get wheelspin in all > gears even while going in a straight line. Squirrley car? you bet. > > TJSB

Mark Donohue developed the 917K-30 and it was based on the 917K-10. those cars were turbocharged and in final form reached 1200 to 1300 bhp in qual trim. The 917K coupe which is probly the car Dave is talking about was normally aspirated, and did not make near that much power. I think they came with a 4.5 liter 12 cylinder. The Aero package was setup for low drag not for downforce and they were very unstable. Redman, and Vic Elford will attest to that. John Wyer helped solve most of the unstability problems. the car also had severe camber and toe changes during suspension travel so the car was darty under braking. Donohue developed the 917K-30 into a very nice car they made the wheelbase longer used a modifed nose and rear wing section. Porsche was very concerned about wieght to longer wheelbase cars were not used normally due to the added wieght. Also the fact the turbocharged motor had a bunch of boost lag did not help matters. Mark also tuned that out a bit. Dave

Nobody's saying they didn't drift (slide is incorrect as it infers being on the wrong side or the slip angle curve)... just not at the yaw angles evident in GPL. I think the "one particular lap" statement sort of implies this was a rare occurence which the drivers didn't plan on doing as a matter of course. Furthermore, unless you can present timing for that and other, in-line laps showing the lap in which the moment occurred was significantly faster you have no point whatsoever. Jan. =--- Dave Henrie wrote...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> This is a bit of a stretch...but.... > > They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa. > on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the > hill, <snip> > Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can > slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive > the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all > over too? > dave henrie

Thanks for filling in the background.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > Mark Donohue developed the 917K-30 and it was based on the 917K-10. those > cars were turbocharged and in final form reached 1200 to 1300 bhp in qual > trim. The 917K coupe which is probly the car Dave is talking about was > normally aspirated, and did not make near that much power. I think they > came with a 4.5 liter 12 cylinder. The Aero package was setup for low drag > not for downforce and they were very unstable. Redman, and Vic Elford will > attest to that. John Wyer helped solve most of the unstability problems. > the car also had severe camber and toe changes during suspension travel so > the car was darty under braking.

Yes I understand it was a very compettitive car and I remember reading that Donohue was really loved it once they got the things you mentioned ironed out, but that it was also quite a handful. Weren't there other accidents like the one that nearly killed him where the car snapped in half?

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > Donohue developed the 917K-30 into a very nice car they made the wheelbase > longer used a modifed nose and rear wing section. Porsche was very > concerned about wieght to longer wheelbase cars were not used normally due > to the added wieght. Also the fact the turbocharged motor had a bunch of > boost lag did not help matters. Mark also tuned that out a bit. > > Dave

The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even older cars), they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the drivers seemed to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've seen on TV. David G Fisher "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (24 lines)

> This is a bit of a stretch...but.... > > I watched the Speedvision special called "Victory by Design" which is > essentially a fluff piece by Alan DeCadney about all the various Porche > racing cars. (he also did one on Ferrari...lucky sot...gets to drive > dozens of Prancing Ponies and Stuttgarde vondercars) > Anyhow, the show got to the part about the 917's, those glorious > Le Mans type racers of the eary 70's. Now I'm pretty sure they didn't > have ground effects yet...and one of it's drivers(Brian Redman) was > quoted in a magazine saying the 917 was a HUGELY unstable racer...fast > but twitchy...hmmm where was I? OH yes...917's and why GPL cars did > indeed slide. > They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa. > on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the > hill, he only caught it just before the track turned back to the left at > the top. Now this 917 had an aerodynamic nose which had to produce SOME > sort of downforce and a couple of horizontal tail fins on the rear. > These too must have contributed to the downforce effect. Yet the car > was sliding all the way up the hill. > Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can > slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive > the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all > over too? > dave henrie

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars What video? Please name them David. Be sure that in the videos I have of 1967 they get into major powerslides and do indeed race like the AI, which is a balance between neutral feeling and sliding. Much more than in modern racing of course. Still, sliding is not the fastest way to be constantly fast in GPL, and it's proven when you check out online drivers compared to hotlappers. But we all know that you have a misledding experience of GPL multiplayer racing David. Of course hotlapping techniques couldn't be achieved by real-life drivers for obvious reasons and that is why you are misled into thinking that the cars in GPL slide too much. It's just that no human beeing would have the balls to do that. The numbers of times that any of us got killed in GPL is enormous. Those F1 drivers were the best and could achieve incredibly fast laptimes and at the same time keep those over-powered cars the most neutral possible. -- How hard is it to understand? And if you don't like the sliding effect, friggin tweak the car! -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On Tue, 23 May 2000 04:46:28 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is >because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even older cars), >they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the drivers seemed >to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've >seen on TV. If you drive the cars in a safe manner then it looks just like the AI.The reason that the videos you watched look different then GPL is that the drivers werent out there to kill them selves.I can beat the AI at all the tracks and look just like the videos show but I can go even faster and the car is sliding all over the place.Didnt jim clark say that he didnt push the Lotus as hard as it could take due to not wanting to kill himself??

Quoted text (31 lines)

> >David G Fisher > > >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> This is a bit of a stretch...but.... >> >> I watched the Speedvision special called "Victory by Design" which is >> essentially a fluff piece by Alan DeCadney about all the various Porche >> racing cars. (he also did one on Ferrari...lucky sot...gets to drive >> dozens of Prancing Ponies and Stuttgarde vondercars) >> Anyhow, the show got to the part about the 917's, those glorious >> Le Mans type racers of the eary 70's. Now I'm pretty sure they didn't >> have ground effects yet...and one of it's drivers(Brian Redman) was >> quoted in a magazine saying the 917 was a HUGELY unstable racer...fast >> but twitchy...hmmm where was I? OH yes...917's and why GPL cars did >> indeed slide. >> They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa. >> on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the >> hill, he only caught it just before the track turned back to the left at >> the top. Now this 917 had an aerodynamic nose which had to produce SOME >> sort of downforce and a couple of horizontal tail fins on the rear. >> These too must have contributed to the downforce effect. Yet the car >> was sliding all the way up the hill. >> Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can >> slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive >> the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all >> over too? >> dave henrie >

Very well said! -GaryR

On Tue, 23 May 2000 04:46:28 GMT David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote: % The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is % because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even older cars), % they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the drivers seemed % to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've % seen on TV. My GPL car doesn't 'slide' around like alot of others. It is because I drive differently. I also agree that GPL is not 1000% accurate in its physics. Compromises were made so we could run GPL on PC's and not super-computers. However, if one opts to drive (and setup) the GPL cars in a realistic manner, there is no need to let it all hang-out. That is unless you want to achieve lap times that are under real-life times of the era. Without the fear of serious injury or death (or losing one's job as a F1 pilot), many GPL drivers overdrive their cars. Some have learned to master it to their advantage. Then there is the other school of driving where one hangs it all out because they haven't learned to handle the car yet. I bet if one wanted to they could drive the real '67 cars like they do in GPL, but then they wouldn't have a car after too many laps. ;-) I am most certainly not the fastest GPL pilot out there (by a long shot), but I am not dead slow and am more consistent than most. I don't win very many races, but I can manage to finish in the points and even a rare podium finish as well. I think you are confusing the car vs. the driver in your evaluation of GPL. BTW: GP2 didn't allow one to over-drive the car. For example the Parabolica.... you could easily push the car through this turn and never really lose it (you may have missed the turn, but it would stick like it was on rails if you nailed the turn in). GPL models its physics beyond the envelope as well as within it. Oh and one more thing, I thought you gave up on GPL because it sucked online. ;-) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Very well said! -GaryR On Tue, 23 May 2000 05:12:02 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (26 lines)

>Be sure that in the videos I have of 1967 they get into major powerslides >and do indeed race like the AI, which is a balance between neutral feeling >and sliding. Much more than in modern racing of course. Still, sliding is >not the fastest way to be constantly fast in GPL, and it's proven when you >check out online drivers compared to hotlappers. But we all know that you >have a misledding experience of GPL multiplayer racing David. Of course >hotlapping techniques couldn't be achieved by real-life drivers for obvious >reasons and that is why you are misled into thinking that the cars in GPL >slide too much. It's just that no human beeing would have the balls to do >that. The numbers of times that any of us got killed in GPL is enormous. > >Those F1 drivers were the best and could achieve incredibly fast laptimes >and at the same time keep those over-powered cars the most neutral possible. > > > > >-- How hard is it to understand? And if you don't like the sliding effect, >friggin tweak the car! >-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> >-- May the Downforce be with you... >-- http://www.WeRace.net >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > >

Or...in the case of Jack Brabham and Jim Clark (to name just two out of dozens), a sliding car was a faster car. Tyres played a big part...hard rubber (by comparison today), cross-ply construction, rigid shoulders, immovable carcase, flat, narrow tread. fastest way through a sweeper? Four-wheel drift. Look back even further....Archie Scott-Brown, the brilliant Lister Jaguar driver....four-wheel drifting all over the place and nobody could match him. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Stephen Barnett <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8gd95s$kg0$[email hidden]... > Cars in 1967 did slide, either in the classic 'four wheel drift', or because > the driver went slightly over the limit. The big difference between real > life and GPL is that generally speaking, a sliding car is a slower car, so > the drivers held the car on the very edge all the time. That is what you are > seeing in your video. Get some more video's and you will quickly see plenty > of them getting it wrong, or indeed, doing it on purpose just to get around > a corner. > Steve > > David G Fisher wrote in message ... > >The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > >because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even older cars), > >they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the drivers seemed > >to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've > >seen on TV. > > > >David G Fisher > > > > >

Yep, I saw a Legends Of Motorsport from the 68 race at Rouen. The cars slid at that corner before the finish a lot. They didn't slide as much as me in GPL, but you also have to notice these are some of the best drivers EVER and I think they could control a car better than some guys on the internet with a steering wheel on their desk :) Thanks, Alex David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E2oW4.206240$[email hidden]... > The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even oldercars), > they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the driversseemed

Quoted text (33 lines)

> to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've > seen on TV. > > David G Fisher > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > This is a bit of a stretch...but.... > > > > I watched the Speedvision special called "Victory by Design" which is > > essentially a fluff piece by Alan DeCadney about all the various Porche > > racing cars. (he also did one on Ferrari...lucky sot...gets to drive > > dozens of Prancing Ponies and Stuttgarde vondercars) > > Anyhow, the show got to the part about the 917's, those glorious > > Le Mans type racers of the eary 70's. Now I'm pretty sure they didn't > > have ground effects yet...and one of it's drivers(Brian Redman) was > > quoted in a magazine saying the 917 was a HUGELY unstable racer...fast > > but twitchy...hmmm where was I? OH yes...917's and why GPL cars did > > indeed slide. > > They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa. > > on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the > > hill, he only caught it just before the track turned back to the left at > > the top. Now this 917 had an aerodynamic nose which had to produce SOME > > sort of downforce and a couple of horizontal tail fins on the rear. > > These too must have contributed to the downforce effect. Yet the car > > was sliding all the way up the hill. > > Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can > > slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive > > the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all > > over too? > > dave henrie >

In 1967 they didn't even have seatbelts! I know how much a seatbelt helps in a go-karting accident for god sake! Imagine a collision at 100mph with nothing holding you in! Thanks, Alex Michael E. Carver <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0gxW4.722$[email hidden]... > On Tue, 23 May 2000 04:46:28 GMT David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote: > % The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > % because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even oldercars), > % they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the driversseemed

Quoted text (35 lines)

> % to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've > % seen on TV. > > My GPL car doesn't 'slide' around like alot of others. It is because I > drive differently. I also agree that GPL is not 1000% accurate in its > physics. Compromises were made so we could run GPL on PC's and not > super-computers. However, if one opts to drive (and setup) the GPL cars > in a realistic manner, there is no need to let it all hang-out. That is > unless you want to achieve lap times that are under real-life times of > the era. Without the fear of serious injury or death (or losing one's > job as a F1 pilot), many GPL drivers overdrive their cars. Some have > learned to master it to their advantage. Then there is the other school > of driving where one hangs it all out because they haven't learned to > handle the car yet. I bet if one wanted to they could drive the real > '67 cars like they do in GPL, but then they wouldn't have a car after > too many laps. ;-) I am most certainly not the fastest GPL pilot out > there (by a long shot), but I am not dead slow and am more consistent > than most. I don't win very many races, but I can manage to finish in > the points and even a rare podium finish as well. I think you are > confusing the car vs. the driver in your evaluation of GPL. > > BTW: GP2 didn't allow one to over-drive the car. For example the > Parabolica.... you could easily push the car through this turn and > never really lose it (you may have missed the turn, but it would stick > like it was on rails if you nailed the turn in). GPL models its physics > beyond the envelope as well as within it. > > Oh and one more thing, I thought you gave up on GPL because it sucked > online. ;-) > > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Bingo Frank <VBG> -- Scott B. Husted ICQ #4395450 Editor in Chief PowerSims.com ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CqoW4.115674$[email hidden]... > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > > because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars > > What video? Please name them David. > > Be sure that in the videos I have of 1967 they get into major powerslides > and do indeed race like the AI, which is a balance between neutral feeling > and sliding. Much more than in modern racing of course. Still, sliding is > not the fastest way to be constantly fast in GPL, and it's proven when you > check out online drivers compared to hotlappers. But we all know that you > have a misledding experience of GPL multiplayer racing David. Of course > hotlapping techniques couldn't be achieved by real-life drivers for obvious > reasons and that is why you are misled into thinking that the cars in GPL > slide too much. It's just that no human beeing would have the balls to do > that. The numbers of times that any of us got killed in GPL is enormous. > > Those F1 drivers were the best and could achieve incredibly fast laptimes > and at the same time keep those over-powered cars the most neutral possible. > > > > > -- How hard is it to understand? And if you don't like the sliding effect, > friggin tweak the car! > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Hello? 40's and 50's cars were NEUTRAL ??? LOL I suggest you read some of the books written by the drivers of those periods <VBG> -- Scott B. Husted ICQ #4395450 Editor in Chief PowerSims.com David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fiGW4.206831 > Even the cars of the 50's and 40's seemed to be able to stay neutral. Then > there's video of all of these cars in the rain, still more smooth and in > control than the GPL cars. > > David G Fisher

On Tue, 23 May 2000 18:42:15 -0400, "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message <pCEW4.8689$[email hidden]> : >Yep, I saw a Legends Of Motorsport from the 68 race at Rouen. The cars slid >at that corner before the finish a lot. They didn't slide as much as me in >GPL, but you also have to notice these are some of the best drivers EVER and >I think they could control a car better than some guys on the internet with >a steering wheel on their desk :) A couple of quotes from Jim Clark on the Lotus 49: "We could have accelerated the opposition from the corners even though we could not make much use of the great power we had in the corners. The car was still too twitchy." "The Lotus 49 has probably more power in relation to its weight than any pure road-racing car ever, so naturally it's going to take a bit of getting used to. With that amount of power and the light weight things happen bloddy quickly" Those are from Eric Dymoke's book, "Jim Clark", as is the following extract (quotes in the extract are Jim again): 'The sudden loss of grip in a corner, "....especially if you're in a bit of an attitude", (a Clark euphemism for sliding the car in a controlled way through a bend) was potentially dangerous. At Zandvoort comping on to the straight where the track was oily, when the engine reached 6,500rpm in 4th gear the back wheels began to over-speed and the car was squirming all the way down the track with the tail wagging from side to side. "It was quite alarming, I was going down the straight swinging the steering from one side to the other trying to keep the car on the road"' Cheers, Richard

On Wed, 24 May 2000 01:31:55 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message <fiGW4.206831$[email hidden]> : >Even the cars of the 50's and 40's seemed to be able to stay neutral. Your eyes are deceiving you. Try reading "The Racing Driver" by Denis Jenkinson or "The Technique of Motor Racing" by Piero Taruffi to find out how those cars were really driven. Then go back and really watch what is happening. Cheers, Richard

Hey, even later cars slid(drifted) alot...remember Villeneuve '79, zandvoort? Sudesh David G Fisher wrote:

Quoted text (35 lines)

> > The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even older cars), > they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the drivers seemed > to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've > seen on TV. > > David G Fisher > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > This is a bit of a stretch...but.... > > > > I watched the Speedvision special called "Victory by Design" which is > > essentially a fluff piece by Alan DeCadney about all the various Porche > > racing cars. (he also did one on Ferrari...lucky sot...gets to drive > > dozens of Prancing Ponies and Stuttgarde vondercars) > > Anyhow, the show got to the part about the 917's, those glorious > > Le Mans type racers of the eary 70's. Now I'm pretty sure they didn't > > have ground effects yet...and one of it's drivers(Brian Redman) was > > quoted in a magazine saying the 917 was a HUGELY unstable racer...fast > > but twitchy...hmmm where was I? OH yes...917's and why GPL cars did > > indeed slide. > > They showed some footage of the 917 going up through Eau Rouge at Spa. > > on one paticular lap the driver had the car sliding all the way up the > > hill, he only caught it just before the track turned back to the left at > > the top. Now this 917 had an aerodynamic nose which had to produce SOME > > sort of downforce and a couple of horizontal tail fins on the rear. > > These too must have contributed to the downforce effect. Yet the car > > was sliding all the way up the hill. > > Now if a 917 with at least some semblance of an aero package can > > slip and slide around corners, why is it hard for some of us to beleive > > the non-winged, non-aero'd, non-groundeffects cars of 1967 slipped all > > over too? > > dave henrie

On Tue, 23 May 2000 18:42:15 -0400, "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Yep, I saw a Legends Of Motorsport from the 68 race at Rouen. The cars slid >at that corner before the finish a lot. They didn't slide as much as me in >GPL, but you also have to notice these are some of the best drivers EVER and >I think they could control a car better than some guys on the internet with >a steering wheel on their desk :) And there's the rub. It's harder to control a race car on a monitor with a wheel on the desk because it gives no situational awareness or gforce feedback. That's why a sim should be completely configurable so that those of us who realize that can make changes to cut us a bit of slack to overcome this problem. -- Nos

"Michael E. Carver" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0gxW4.722$[email hidden]... > On Tue, 23 May 2000 04:46:28 GMT David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote: > % The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > % because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even oldercars), > % they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, the driversseemed

Quoted text (10 lines)

> % to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemble what I've > % seen on TV. > > My GPL car doesn't 'slide' around like alot of others. It is because I > drive differently. I also agree that GPL is not 1000% accurate in its > physics. Compromises were made so we could run GPL on PC's and not > super-computers. However, if one opts to drive (and setup) the GPL cars > in a realistic manner, there is no need to let it all hang-out. That is > unless you want to achieve lap times that are under real-life times of > the era.

I forget where I saw it recently, but someone has a GPL web site with the real life record times for each track in '67. For example, the record at WG was 1:05 (almost positive). I've yet to see a replay where someone was able to do a 1:05 in GPL and hold onto the drive line as the AI do. Nice and smooth like the AI and real life video I've seen on television. Monza? Mosport? After two years, there should be plenty of replays available which show this. I'm not trying to start up a "typical" GPL debate either. You'll just have to trust me. :-o Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine that I need to get over, but I always try to be as smooth as possible with my sim driving, yet still fast. If it's necessary to use a "hotlap" style to be fast, then IMO, something is wrong with the sim. That doesn't mean I think GPL isn't an excellent sim, just not good enough to crown it king over all others, and to insult and ignore the rest. >'67> Oh and one more thing, I thought you gave up on GPL because it sucked > online. ;-) That too. :-P David G Fisher ********************* Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I should of said that they didn't slide like they do in GPL while running the same lap times. Where are these replays? David G Fisher "Pat Dotson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > > because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and even oldercars),

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > they didn't slide like they do in GPL. > > But they _could_ slide like that, if they wanted to. But > sliding like that is not the fast way around the track in > real life, or in GPL. Ignore the replays shipped with GPL, > and look at some of the record hot laps available on the > web. Those guys slide very little. > > Again, '67 F1 cars can and did slide, just like they can > and do in GPL. A good and fast driver, though, won't > usually slide like that, either in GPL or in real life. > > -- > PD

Speedvision is one constant source. During F1 races on both Fox and Speedvision. Even the cars of the 50's and 40's seemed to be able to stay neutral. Then there's video of all of these cars in the rain, still more smooth and in control than the GPL cars. David G Fisher "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CqoW4.115674$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPL longer is > > because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars > > What video? Please name them David. > > Be sure that in the videos I have of 1967 they get into major powerslides > and do indeed race like the AI, which is a balance between neutral feeling > and sliding. Much more than in modern racing of course. Still, sliding

is > not the fastest way to be constantly fast in GPL, and it's proven when you > check out online drivers compared to hotlappers. But we all know that you > have a misledding experience of GPL multiplayer racing David. Of course > hotlapping techniques couldn't be achieved by real-life drivers forobvious > reasons and that is why you are misled into thinking that the cars in GPL > slide too much. It's just that no human beeing would have the balls to do > that. The numbers of times that any of us got killed in GPL is enormous. > > Those F1 drivers were the best and could achieve incredibly fast laptimes > and at the same time keep those over-powered cars the most neutralpossible.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > > > -- How hard is it to understand? And if you don't like the sliding effect, > friggin tweak the car! > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > Speedvision is one constant source. During F1 races on both Fox and > Speedvision. Mmmm Speedvision. > Even the cars of the 50's and 40's seemed to be able to stay neutral. Then > there's video of all of these cars in the rain, still more smooth and in > control than the GPL cars. Of course we are talking about Front-engine cars now David. Please stop your anti-GPL crusade. Everybody agrees against you here. The GPL AI gives us the correct handling of those cars and it's the FASTEST way I still say. Do you still have GPL installed? Come race online and see the fast guy NEVER sliding into any corners. They do push-oversteer exiting corners because that's how the Clark@cie made racing so entertaining in 1967. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote > Yep, I saw a Legends Of Motorsport from the 68 race at Rouen. The carsslid > at that corner before the finish a lot. They didn't slide as much as me in > GPL, but you also have to notice these are some of the best drivers EVERand > I think they could control a car better than some guys on the internetwith > a steering wheel on their desk :) Exactly, but you are replying to David, who simply can't figure out that GPL is the most realistic racing simulation ever and correctly models how 1967 Formula 1 handled. Also, remember that in 68 they had wings, thus downforce so the sliding was slighty reduced from what you had in 67! -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > If it's > necessary to use a "hotlap" style to be fast, then IMO, something is wrong > with the sim. Dammit David how many times do we have to tell you? Hotlapping is NOT the way to be consistantly fast in GPL! Just ask those hotlappers how many times they virtually died while hotlapping. They are ALL dead a couple of days after doing hotlappings maximum, with a good portion who have virtually died a couple of hours or minutes after trying to hotlap. Yet they Shift-R and continue to do those crazy laptimes. That's what virtual reality is for David! You can do the same in any kind of racing simulation! If you want to be consistantly fast like the real-life F1 drivers were, then DO IT, but don't expect the hotlappers with an infinite ammount of life to have the same handling than real F1 drivers back in the days, or in any kind of racing Why is it so hard to understand David? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

I have found that excessive sliding isn't the fastest way around the tracks in GPL. The point where the tyres are just losing grip but you are not actually getting the tail out seems to be the fastest way to go. I must admit I am no where near the fastest GPL driver, I'm probarbly in 40,001 position;) I have been practicing Silverstone alot recently and my best lap (for pole position) showed in a replay no smoke coming from my tyres, I managed to keep the car straight the whole way round the lap. It actually didn't seem like a fast lap. Chris In article <E2oW4.206240 $[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The biggest and really only reason why I didn't stay with GPLlonger is >because when I watched video of the real '67 F1 cars (and evenolder cars), >they didn't slide like they do in GPL. Even in the rain, thedrivers seemed >to be able to hold the drive line. The AI cars in GPL resemblewhat I've >seen on TV. > >David G Fisher > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote: : "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote :> Yep, I saw a Legends Of Motorsport from the 68 race at Rouen. The cars : slid :> at that corner before the finish a lot. They didn't slide as much as me in :> GPL, but you also have to notice these are some of the best drivers EVER : and :> I think they could control a car better than some guys on the internet : with :> a steering wheel on their desk :) : Exactly, but you are replying to David, who simply can't figure out that GPL : is the most realistic racing simulation ever and correctly models how 1967 : Formula 1 handled. It _is_ the most realistic racing simulation ever. It does _not_ correctly model how '67 F1 cars handle. I'm convinced (and have been for a while) that the GPL cars do handle with excessive back end out. Sliding is perhaps too extreme a word but I've never seen a lap of GPL by a human at any speed which actually looked like the real drivers looked. From the world record stuff (which I've studied to try to hone my line and acceleration) to me trundling around fairly slowly, GPL doesn't "look right" from an out of car view. It's a very subtle thing but the cars are far too "tail out". I'm not talking about four wheel drift or a rear end slide but just the fact that the cars seem to naturally slot into handling comfortably with the tail hanging out which the real ones did not. When it comes to spinning or crashing, we all know that the GPL model is fundamentally a bit cock-eyed (unless the '67 cars really did rocket to 1000 feet in the air while rotating like a spin-dryer on steroids). Lack of chassis give and other damping forces mean that when a GPL car lets go and spins, it really does spin and keep going more than the cars of that era really did. ('67 cars spun out fairly regularly - they didn't often do the 720 degree GPL spins though). GPL is the best there is _at the moment_ and I really love racing it. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of room for improvement because to my mind the GPL model is far too "rigid" in what it does. In some ways it's a typical "physicist" model constructed (and very well constructed) from idealised rigid bars connected with springs on tracks which seem to have fairly uniform coefficients of friction "by section" (if you see what I mean). Like GP2 before it, there isn't much that can be seriously compared with GPL in terms of accuracy - but there will be (one day). -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

On Wed, 24 May 2000 01:31:55 GMT David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote: % Speedvision is one constant source. During F1 races on both Fox and % Speedvision. % Even the cars of the 50's and 40's seemed to be able to stay neutral. Then % there's video of all of these cars in the rain, still more smooth and in % control than the GPL cars. Duh who would want (or even could) drive in the rain with the rear drifting out? Again, it's not the GPL cars, but the drivers that drive them.... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Wed, 24 May 2000 01:22:42 GMT David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote: % I forget where I saw it recently, but someone has a GPL web site with the % real life record times for each track in '67. For example, the record at WG % was 1:05 (almost positive). I've yet to see a replay where someone was able % to do a 1:05 in GPL and hold onto the drive line as the AI do. Nice and % smooth like the AI and real life video I've seen on television. Monza? % Mosport? Pole for 1967 Glen by Hill (1:05.48) vs. Clark's 2nd spot (1:06.07). 3rd was Gurney 1:06.64). The race fastest lap was by Hill on lap 81. You can bet that they were pushing the car out to the edge during qualifying, but kept them more in control during the race. Have you seen footage of the qualifying runs for 1967? Monza's pole by Clark 1:28.5, 2nd Brabham 1:28.8, 3rd McLaren 1:29.31. Race fastest lap Clark lap 26 at 1:28.5. From Motor Sport magazine's covrage of practice, "...Clark was preparing to try some Goodyear tyres, as he did not like the way the Firestone tyres seemed reluctant to slide..." Regarding some of the fast lap times, "...Brabham and McLaren were on the front row with lap times they could not repeat without a slip-streaming "tow" from a faster car." From the race report, "Stewart lost a whole lap at the pits, having stopped to see if he had damaged his left rear Goodyear after sliding the tail too far at Lesmo and hitting the guard-rail." Mosport's pole by 1:22.4, 2nd Hill 1:22.7, 3rd Hulme 1:23.2. Race fastest lap by Clark 1:23.1 lap 54. From the race report in Motor Sport magazine, "As he [Clark during practice] went into the first corner past the pits, the tail swung wide and he spun in the middle of the road at about 120 m.p.h." The race started with a wet track, again from Motor Sport: "Clark was still leading but using an awful lot of road..." As the rain stopped and the track dried, "Irwin spun on lap 18... Pease spun off... He [Hulme] passed Gurney and then, with the tail hanging well out..." % After two years, there should be plenty of replays available which show % this. I'm not trying to start up a "typical" GPL debate either. You'll just % have to trust me. :-o % Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine that I need to get over, but I always % try to be as smooth as possible with my sim driving, yet still fast. If it's % necessary to use a "hotlap" style to be fast, then IMO, something is wrong % with the sim. That doesn't mean I think GPL isn't an excellent sim, just not % good enough to crown it king over all others, and to insult and ignore the % rest. Ask anyone who has raced with me online and they will tell you I am smooth (to a fault). During the last GPLWS (Grand Prix Legends World Series) I placed 4th on the grid at Monza with a 1:28.5 with my race fastest lap being 1m28.776s. Of course this is a division where we don't allow the "hot shoes" to race <G>. At Mosport I placed 5th on the grid with a 1:23.22 and Alison Hine (a very smooth driver) had the pole with a Brabham at 1m22.654s. At the Glen I placed 3rd on the grid with a 1m05.562s and had a race fast lap of 1m05.899s. If you are interested, replays of these races (as well as the Elite division which is composed of hot-shoes -- i.e., Greger Huttu) are still available. I think you would be pleasently surprised to watch Greger in "race" mode. He's fast and smooth. I can provide you with the ftp site information if you wish (just e-mail me). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Tue, 23 May 2000 23:04:45 -0500 Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> wrote: % BTW, I assume that by "sliding", you mean hanging % the rear of the car out, using opposite lock to % control it. GPL hotlap drivers do slide, but it's % a four wheel drift. On my lap, I don't use opposite % lock anywhere on the track. In fact, I tend to use % excessive positive lock. ANYTIME I have to use % opposite lock to catch a slide in GPL, my lap time % is lower. And damn it Pat, you are fast and smooth.... I think only once in our races did I ever get by you because of a mistake you made... only to get quickly passed a few laps later <G> BTW: For the record Pat isn't a GPL-god all other sims-evil person. As a matter of fact he is a staunch defender of f12k. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Dave.... it might produce a better effect than what you are smoking now. ;-) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

"amos-opus" <[email hidden]> wrote > even later cars slid(drifted) alot...remember Villeneuve '79, zandvoort? I'm not sure if you can consider Villeneuve in the same category in terms of car handling than any other F1 driver. He was just unique, and I feel it's too easy to include this as an argument against David crusade (which he still can't figure out after we gave him facts and backup of those facts with other facts). Let's make our job a little harder ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Richard Walker wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > Your eyes are deceiving you. Try reading "The Racing Driver" by Denis > Jenkinson or "The Technique of Motor Racing" by Piero Taruffi to find out > how those cars were really driven. Then go back and really watch what is > happening. > > Cheers, > Richard

Yes, reach out with your feelings. Your eyes can mislead you, don't trust them. Use the force Luke. dave henrie

Just pick up any Classic car magazine and thumb through it. The 50s cars had their asses wayyyyy out there. The picture of Fangio at Argentina comes to mind. Hawthorne used to get his buggies to the most ludicrous angle, then hold them there with a grimace on his face, his bow-tied upper body leaning way into the corner. A few months ago there was even a great picture of Chris Amon emulating the famous Fangio picture during qualifying at Rouen in '68 (?) with his winged car pointing towards the photographers on the infield, rather than down the road. Stephen "Richard Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 24 May 2000 01:31:55 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]>wrote

Quoted text (11 lines)

> in message <fiGW4.206831$[email hidden]> : > > >Even the cars of the 50's and 40's seemed to be able to stay neutral. > > Your eyes are deceiving you. Try reading "The Racing Driver" by Denis > Jenkinson or "The Technique of Motor Racing" by Piero Taruffi to find out > how those cars were really driven. Then go back and really watch what is > happening. > > Cheers, > Richard

In article <[email hidden]>, amos-opus <[email hidden]> writes: >Hey, > >even later cars slid(drifted) alot...remember Villeneuve '79, zandvoort? > Or CART - Vancouver, 1999? <g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.