GPL / Voodoo 3 - What frame rate should I be getting?

I have just replaced an 8 Mbyte Voodoo 2 and an 8 Mbyte AGP Thriller with a 3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and am very disappointed with the frame rate I am getting. My PC has a PII 450 with 128 Mbytes RAM and a PDPI game port card. Using a full Monaco starting grid and my preferred graphics settings (Most things turned on except in the mirrors and 50% detail level) as my benchmark I was previously getting 32 FPS with the Thriller and somewhere in the 20s with the Voodoo 2. I thought this was pretty good and that everything was working optimally. I now get a benchmark reading of only 24 FPS with the new Voodoo 3. I know that Voodoos are more processor dependent than Thrillers but I did expect that the PII 450 would not be limiting. I am wondering if there may be something I have overlooked. Can anybody make any suggestions or does the frame rate seem about right? What sort of things can cripple a Voodoo 3? Mark Croasdale ICQ 21549408

For comparison:Using your settings at Monaco I get 22FPS at back of grid dropping to approximately 20 as field starts to move and rising to 36 when there are about 6 cars still visible. This on 433 Celeron,128Mb Ram, V3 3000 not overclocked at 1024x 768 resolution and sounds set to 4. This is only at start and rest of race is at 36FPS or very close to it. David "Mark Croasdale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bjbt4$t89$[email hidden]... I have just replaced an 8 Mbyte Voodoo 2 and an 8 Mbyte AGP Thriller with a 3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and am very disappointed with the frame rate I am getting. My PC has a PII 450 with 128 Mbytes RAM and a PDPI game port card. Using a full Monaco starting grid and my preferred graphics settings (Most things turned on except in the mirrors and 50% detail level) as my benchmark I was previously getting 32 FPS with the Thriller and somewhere in the 20s with the Voodoo 2. I thought this was pretty good and that everything was working optimally. I now get a benchmark reading of only 24 FPS with the new Voodoo 3. I know that Voodoos are more processor dependent than Thrillers but I did expect that the PII 450 would not be limiting. I am wondering if there may be something I have overlooked. Can anybody make any suggestions or does the frame rate seem about right? What sort of things can cripple a Voodoo 3? Mark Croasdale ICQ 21549408

On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:53:16 GMT, "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote: yeah - at start of race the performance is inferior to the Thriller, but as the field thins out and separates, the V3's advantages become clearer. BTW I have a V3 2000 oc to V3 3000

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> >"Mark Croasdale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8bjbt4$t89$[email hidden]... >I have just replaced an 8 Mbyte Voodoo 2 and an 8 Mbyte AGP Thriller with a >3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and am very disappointed with the frame rate I am >getting. > >My PC has a PII 450 with 128 Mbytes RAM and a PDPI game port card. Using a >full Monaco starting grid and my preferred graphics settings (Most things >turned on except in the mirrors and 50% detail level) as my benchmark I was >previously getting 32 FPS with the Thriller and somewhere in the 20s with >the Voodoo 2. I thought this was pretty good and that everything was >working optimally. > >I now get a benchmark reading of only 24 FPS with the new Voodoo 3. I know >that Voodoos are more processor dependent than Thrillers but I did expect >that the PII 450 would not be limiting. > >I am wondering if there may be something I have overlooked. Can anybody >make any suggestions or does the frame rate seem about right? What sort of >things can cripple a Voodoo 3? > >Mark Croasdale >ICQ 21549408 > >

Mark, Uncheck the box that says something like "sync monitor to video card" or some such thing. This should fix your problem. Wayne Hutchison "Mark Croasdale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bjbt4$t89$[email hidden]... I have just replaced an 8 Mbyte Voodoo 2 and an 8 Mbyte AGP Thriller with a 3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and am very disappointed with the frame rate I am getting. My PC has a PII 450 with 128 Mbytes RAM and a PDPI game port card. Using a full Monaco starting grid and my preferred graphics settings (Most things turned on except in the mirrors and 50% detail level) as my benchmark I was previously getting 32 FPS with the Thriller and somewhere in the 20s with the Voodoo 2. I thought this was pretty good and that everything was working optimally. I now get a benchmark reading of only 24 FPS with the new Voodoo 3. I know that Voodoos are more processor dependent than Thrillers but I did expect that the PII 450 would not be limiting. I am wondering if there may be something I have overlooked. Can anybody make any suggestions or does the frame rate seem about right? What sort of things can cripple a Voodoo 3? Mark Croasdale ICQ 21549408

I did that with my Voodoo2 but I don't seem to have that option with the new adapter. According to the other replies to my post, it looks like I am getting about as high a frame rate as I can expect. Mark Croasdale ICQ 21549408 Wayne Hutchison <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NjcD4.15719$[email hidden]...

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> Mark, > > Uncheck the box that says something like "sync monitor to video card" or > some such thing. This should fix your problem. > > Wayne Hutchison >

80% of the frame rate is because of the AI cars (very complex calculations), only 20% because of the graphics. Try running a training session with no AI and you'll see what I mean. You can waste a lot of time fiddling with graphics with very little effect. Marc. "Mark Croasdale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bjbt4$t89$[email hidden]... I have just replaced an 8 Mbyte Voodoo 2 and an 8 Mbyte AGP Thriller with a 3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and am very disappointed with the frame rate I am getting. My PC has a PII 450 with 128 Mbytes RAM and a PDPI game port card. Using a full Monaco starting grid and my preferred graphics settings (Most things turned on except in the mirrors and 50% detail level) as my benchmark I was previously getting 32 FPS with the Thriller and somewhere in the 20s with the Voodoo 2. I thought this was pretty good and that everything was working optimally. I now get a benchmark reading of only 24 FPS with the new Voodoo 3. I know that Voodoos are more processor dependent than Thrillers but I did expect that the PII 450 would not be limiting. I am wondering if there may be something I have overlooked. Can anybody make any suggestions or does the frame rate seem about right? What sort of things can cripple a Voodoo 3? Mark Croasdale ICQ 21549408

It all has to do with the physics model.You mention 80% and @20 for graphics and AI but what about the very demaning physics model?I also have a Thriller and will get the V3 but I know from reading at Allison's site that I need more than my 450mhz to be able to give the V3 what it wants.Get a 600 mhz and youll feed the V3 what it wants and at 1024/768 full everything and full field AND full anti-aliasing:) I have been looking into buying a 400mhz celeron tha runs at 600mhz for a measly $75.---$75 plus another $75 for a V3 2000 and Ill be able to have all this is unbelievable to me. Later On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:18:13 GMT, "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>80% of the frame rate is because of the AI cars (very complex calculations), >only 20% because of the graphics. Try running a training session with no AI >and you'll see what I mean. You can waste a lot of time fiddling with >graphics with very little effect. > >Marc. > > >"Mark Croasdale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8bjbt4$t89$[email hidden]... >I have just replaced an 8 Mbyte Voodoo 2 and an 8 Mbyte AGP Thriller with a >3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and am very disappointed with the frame rate I am >getting. > >My PC has a PII 450 with 128 Mbytes RAM and a PDPI game port card. Using a >full Monaco starting grid and my preferred graphics settings (Most things >turned on except in the mirrors and 50% detail level) as my benchmark I was >previously getting 32 FPS with the Thriller and somewhere in the 20s with >the Voodoo 2. I thought this was pretty good and that everything was >working optimally. > >I now get a benchmark reading of only 24 FPS with the new Voodoo 3. I know >that Voodoos are more processor dependent than Thrillers but I did expect >that the PII 450 would not be limiting. > >I am wondering if there may be something I have overlooked. Can anybody >make any suggestions or does the frame rate seem about right? What sort of >things can cripple a Voodoo 3? > >Mark Croasdale >ICQ 21549408 > > >

I agree. It seems that with a PII 450 and a Voodoo 3, GPL is processor limited when running a full field of cars. Now I have to decide whether to put my Thriller back in or go and get a faster chip. Mark Croasdale ICQ 21549408 Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9LqD4.18119$[email hidden]... > 80% of the frame rate is because of the AI cars (very complex calculations), > only 20% because of the graphics. Try running a training session with no AI > and you'll see what I mean. You can waste a lot of time fiddling with > graphics with very little effect. > > Marc.

The "physics model" and the AI are the same thing. Unlike most racing games, the AI in GPL are subject to the same or almost the same modelling that you are (which is already more complex than most). The graphics in GPL are great in some ways, but it is obvious that they are not photo-realistic or over-the-top...yet people spend countless hours trying to tweak graphics to yield better frame rates because that's what works in games whose content is 80% pretty pictures. Just trying to help save some wasted effort. Marc. "Skeeter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> It all has to do with the physics model.You mention 80% and @20 for > graphics and AI but what about the very demaning physics model?I also > have a Thriller and will get the V3 but I know from reading at > Allison's site that I need more than my 450mhz to be able to give the > V3 what it wants.Get a 600 mhz and youll feed the V3 what it wants and > at 1024/768 full everything and full field AND full anti-aliasing:) > > I have been looking into buying a 400mhz celeron tha runs at 600mhz > for a measly $75.---$75 plus another $75 for a V3 2000 and Ill be able > to have all this is unbelievable to me. > Later > > > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:18:13 GMT, "Marc Collins" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >80% of the frame rate is because of the AI cars (very complex

calculations), > >only 20% because of the graphics. Try running a training session with noAI

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> >and you'll see what I mean. You can waste a lot of time fiddling with > >graphics with very little effect. > > > >Marc. > > > > > >"Mark Croasdale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:8bjbt4$t89$[email hidden]... > >I have just replaced an 8 Mbyte Voodoo 2 and an 8 Mbyte AGP Thriller with

a > >3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and am very disappointed with the frame rate I am > >getting. > > > >My PC has a PII 450 with 128 Mbytes RAM and a PDPI game port card. Usinga > >full Monaco starting grid and my preferred graphics settings (Most things > >turned on except in the mirrors and 50% detail level) as my benchmark Iwas > >previously getting 32 FPS with the Thriller and somewhere in the 20s with > >the Voodoo 2. I thought this was pretty good and that everything was > >working optimally. > > > >I now get a benchmark reading of only 24 FPS with the new Voodoo 3. Iknow > >that Voodoos are more processor dependent than Thrillers but I did expect > >that the PII 450 would not be limiting. > > > >I am wondering if there may be something I have overlooked. Can anybody > >make any suggestions or does the frame rate seem about right? What sortof

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> >things can cripple a Voodoo 3? > > > >Mark Croasdale > >ICQ 21549408 > > > > > > >

I had a V2, then swapped my main card for a Thriller--which never worked properly due to bad driver support. Despite the problems, I would have kept it because of GPL. I disliked the graphics as compared to the V2 and now with a V3, there is no comparison. The frame rates I got with the V3 3000 and the Thriller are almost identical, except that the V3 looks better and works perfectly with every game and app. I own, whereas the Thriller was a pain in the butt. I would save your money for a better CPU!!! Marc. . "Mark Croasdale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8blqgr$94o$[email hidden]... I agree. It seems that with a PII 450 and a Voodoo 3, GPL is processor limited when running a full field of cars. Now I have to decide whether to put my Thriller back in or go and get a faster chip. Mark Croasdale ICQ 21549408 Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9LqD4.18119$[email hidden]... > 80% of the frame rate is because of the AI cars (very complexcalculations), > only 20% because of the graphics. Try running a training session with noAI > and you'll see what I mean. You can waste a lot of time fiddling with > graphics with very little effect. > > Marc.

My guess is that the AI physics model is quite a lot simpler than player's because: - Although the AI driving looks very good, it isn't totally convincing (IMHO of course) and I don't mean their spin recovery here. - The frame rate hit is MUCH bigger, when the AI cars are visible - if they are not, I usually get 36 fps with 19 AI cars. Still, at Monaco and Vancouver tunnels, for example, the fps goes below 36 fps even when training alone. - This is no chess:) The AI must only look convincing - it is hard to detect cheating. I find it hard to believe, that GPL is doing 20 times (or even close to that) more physics calculation when running with full field AI. If I was David Kaemmer, I would use that kind of CPU horsepower to improve the player physics model (dynamic camber anyone?), rather than to AI. A side-note: There may be some other tricks GPL uses for AI cars like pre-calculated sub-patches... Jari Jokinen

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>The "physics model" and the AI are the same thing. Unlike most racing >games, the AI in GPL are subject to the same or almost the same modelling >that you are (which is already more complex than most). >The graphics in GPL are great in some ways, but it is obvious that they are >not photo-realistic or over-the-top...yet people spend countless hours >trying to tweak graphics to yield better frame rates because that's what >works in games whose content is 80% pretty pictures. Just trying to help >save some wasted effort. >Marc. >> graphics and AI but what about the very demaning physics model?I also >> have a Thriller and will get the V3 but I know from reading at >> Allison's site that I need more than my 450mhz to be able to give the >> V3 what it wants.Get a 600 mhz and youll feed the V3 what it wants and >> at 1024/768 full everything and full field AND full anti-aliasing:) >> I have been looking into buying a 400mhz celeron tha runs at 600mhz >> for a measly $75.---$75 plus another $75 for a V3 2000 and Ill be able >> to have all this is unbelievable to me. >> Later >> On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:18:13 GMT, "Marc Collins" >> >80% of the frame rate is because of the AI cars (very complex >calculations), >> >only 20% because of the graphics. Try running a training session with

no

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>AI >> >and you'll see what I mean. You can waste a lot of time fiddling with >> >graphics with very little effect. >> >Marc. >> >I have just replaced an 8 Mbyte Voodoo 2 and an 8 Mbyte AGP Thriller

with >a >> >3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and am very disappointed with the frame rate I am >> >getting. >> >My PC has a PII 450 with 128 Mbytes RAM and a PDPI game port card. Using >a >> >full Monaco starting grid and my preferred graphics settings (Most things >> >turned on except in the mirrors and 50% detail level) as my benchmark I >was >> >previously getting 32 FPS with the Thriller and somewhere in the 20s with >> >the Voodoo 2. I thought this was pretty good and that everything was >> >working optimally. >> >I now get a benchmark reading of only 24 FPS with the new Voodoo 3. I >know >> >that Voodoos are more processor dependent than Thrillers but I did expect

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>> >that the PII 450 would not be limiting. >> >I am wondering if there may be something I have overlooked. Can anybody >> >make any suggestions or does the frame rate seem about right? What sort >of >> >things can cripple a Voodoo 3? >> >Mark Croasdale >> >ICQ 21549408

Mark I can confirm without a doubt that its your P2 450 holding you back. I just upgraded my Celeron 433(which was running @488) to a P3 600E. With the celeron I was getting 19-20fps at the start of a race, then back to 36 after the start. With my P3 600 + V3 im getting 32-33 at the start and 36 for the rest. When I run the P3 @675, It stays @ 36fps the entire time. Ivan In article <8blqgr$94o$[email hidden]>, "Mark Croasdale" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I agree. It seems that with a PII 450 and a Voodoo 3, GPL is processor= > limited when running a full field of cars. =20 > Now I have to decide whether to put my Thriller back in or go and geta = > faster chip. > > Mark Croasdale > ICQ 21549408 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Jari Jokinen <[email hidden]> wrote: : My guess is that the AI physics model is quite a lot simpler than player's You're right I think. : because: : - Although the AI driving looks very good, it isn't totally convincing (IMHO : of course) and I don't mean their spin recovery here. : - The frame rate hit is MUCH bigger, when the AI cars are visible - if they : are not, I usually get 36 fps with 19 AI cars. Still, at Monaco and : Vancouver tunnels, for example, the fps goes below 36 fps even when training : alone. Turn the detail level very low : - This is no chess:) The AI must only look convincing - it is hard to detect : cheating. I find it hard to believe, that GPL is doing 20 times (or even : close to that) more physics calculation when running with full field AI. If : I was David Kaemmer, I would use that kind of CPU horsepower to improve the : player physics model (dynamic camber anyone?), rather than to AI. : A side-note: There may be some other tricks GPL uses for AI cars like : pre-calculated sub-patches... Um... the AI cars can get away with things the player could never do. That's why you'll sometimes find the AI scooting up the inside of you without locking up in a way that a real person never could. I think you can get away with being more brutal to the AI cars than you ever could to a real player because they are allowed to brake and swerve without skidding. Also, some people have reported ridiculous lap tims from the AI after having got artificially low qual times from a clock smash - the global hype can overcompensate and produce absurd times from the AI. I've never seen that myself so I can't confirm that it does happen. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/