Re: F1 2000 is available legally

On the following date: 22 Mar 2000 20:06:51 GMT, said person(s) [email hidden] (David Buttery) stated: >.... as British games are almost always >released on Fridays. Could someone explain to me why that is? Why are games in the UK released on a certain "day"? Just think it's odd. - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever [email hidden] Techware Computer Services http://techware.gtinsider.com Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: [email hidden]

I believe it is on some shelfs areleady..(see below/HighGear)...I know of many stores in the US that will sell items when they are shipped and not when the actual release day arrives...Babbages here was even doing so with N-64s before they where supposed to be on the shelves.. "Whilst shopping in Dixons Superstore Birmingham, England I saw EA's F1200 available for sale, (not pre-ordering, definitely for sale). It was �34.99 but I didn't have enough on me so I'll be back tomorrrow. I don't know if they have been selling it already. The box was exactly as your previous screenshot, Schumacher and Irvine in Ferrari and Jag respectively. The game hasn't been released officially, but it's possible that some shops will already have it on their shelves, since copies are always sent out earlier to make sure the game is available on the Release Date. The official release date for the UK/Australia is still March 24/25. The whole of Europe should have it one week later..." Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> Obviously F1 2000 is available through legitimate means already > as I see plenty of views about it from the "moral guardians" of > RAS (or the "RAS Veterans" as they like to be known) who have > let it be known that they condemn the use of Warez. > > Because it is usual for them to let everyone else know that they > know something we don't, but feel they look clever if they don't > tell us the full story behind it or where to find it. They > won't tell us where we can also legitimatly purchase F1 2000. > > Chris > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network

* > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! >

On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:53:15 -0500, James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>On the following date: 22 Mar 2000 20:06:51 GMT, said person(s) >[email hidden] (David Buttery) stated: > >>.... as British games are almost always >>released on Fridays. > >Could someone explain to me why that is?

Something 'fishy' here...? ;) -- * rrev at mindspring dot com *

EBWorld says it is out tomorrow...so I'm guessing that right now there is not legit place to buy it... Chris Bloom wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

> Obviously F1 2000 is available through legitimate means already > as I see plenty of views about it from the "moral guardians" of > RAS (or the "RAS Veterans" as they like to be known) who have > let it be known that they condemn the use of Warez. > > Because it is usual for them to let everyone else know that they > know something we don't, but feel they look clever if they don't > tell us the full story behind it or where to find it. They > won't tell us where we can also legitimatly purchase F1 2000. > > Chris > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

On Wed 22 Mar 2000 06:32:03p, Michael Basden wrote: >EBWorld says it is out tomorrow...so I'm guessing that right now >there is not legit place to buy it... I imagine that must be a US date, as British games are almost always released on Fridays. Anyone got a UK rel. date? -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Obviously F1 2000 is available through legitimate means already as I see plenty of views about it from the "moral guardians" of RAS (or the "RAS Veterans" as they like to be known) who have let it be known that they condemn the use of Warez. Because it is usual for them to let everyone else know that they know something we don't, but feel they look clever if they don't tell us the full story behind it or where to find it. They won't tell us where we can also legitimatly purchase F1 2000. Chris * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

I've already posted that it is released on Friday in the UK. Iain David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> On Wed 22 Mar 2000 06:32:03p, Michael Basden wrote: > > >EBWorld says it is out tomorrow...so I'm guessing that right now > >there is not legit place to buy it... > > I imagine that must be a US date, as British games are almost always > released on Fridays. Anyone got a UK rel. date? > > -- > David. > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

"Chris Bloom" <[email hidden]> wrote > Obviously F1 2000 is available through legitimate means already > as I see plenty of views about it from the "moral guardians" of > RAS (or the "RAS Veterans" as they like to be known) who have > let it be known that they condemn the use of Warez. It's not out yet. But I doubt it's hard for anybody to actually not know where to buy software. Online sites are in high numbers, plus the multitude of stores that each city/region has. I have my own store where I buy only from there, but they at least have the titles within a couple of days of the US release. There's many flaws with the gaming market here in Qu�bec, with translation laws and so... Always a bad side to a medal! Still, you won't see me buying F1 2000. I see no appeal in it (I can see how some can be satisfied by this piece of software). I also don't see where people have said themselves to be "moral guardians". I doubt anybody doesn't agree that it's illegal, but for some having the chance in this newsgroup to inform people about a software is somehow morally acceptable, willing that they actually buy the title when it's released. But this goes for everything. MP3's, books, movies, etc... -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:23:48 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >"Stiff one" <[email hidden]> wrote >> Hmm too bad the native indians couldn't have done that....... > >It's unfortunate and I would agree with you. They were outnumbered and the >years of assimilation created that. So why don't you move out of your home and let the Indians have 'their' land back? -- * rrev at mindspring dot com *

On Wed 22 Mar 2000 10:17:08p, ymenard wrote: <snip> >There's many flaws with the gaming market >here in Qu�bec, with translation laws and so...<snip> I thought the Qu�becquois got rid of their more extreme translation laws after the last election? -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On Thu 23 Mar 2000 01:37:48a, L_NiN0 wrote: >"Whilst shopping in Dixons Superstore Birmingham, England I saw EA's >F1200 available for sale ^^^ I can believe that where Dixons are concerned... -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

In article <qejC4.27$[email hidden]>, "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

>> On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:53:15 -0500, James Wohlever >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >On the following date: 22 Mar 2000 20:06:51 GMT, said person(s) >> >[email hidden] (David Buttery) stated: >> > >> >>.... as British games are almost always >> >>released on Fridays. >> > >> >Could someone explain to me why that is? >> >Why are games in the UK released on a certain "day"? >> >Just think it's odd.

AFAIK, US games always release on teusday/wednesday. It's just a done thing- mainly concerning cut off dates for distrubution- stock has to arrive at the warehouses of the ig chains by the previous monday for UK Friday releases.. Z. Please remove my_pants when replying.

ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EDbC4.4031$[email hidden]... > > by this piece of software). I also don't see where people have said > themselves to be "moral guardians". I doubt anybody doesn't agree thatit's > illegal, but for some having the chance in this newsgroup to inform people > about a software is somehow morally acceptable, willing that they actually > buy the title when it's released. But this goes for everything. MP3's, > books, movies, etc... > Careful when you use the collective "we". I don't buy the argument. Until now, I have based my purchase decisions, moviegoing decisions, music decisions, book-buying decisions etc. on reviews written by people who have received their evaluation copies or pre-screenings through legit channels. Or at least I used to; now it seems, for sim software, the legitimate reviews are going to be drowned out by those who are scrambling to be the first to try a new product and post their own "official" review. Seems like a bit of an ego thing to me. Stephen

In article <qejC4.27$[email hidden]>, Iain Mackenzie <[email hidden]> writes >CDs, vids, and DVDs are released on Mondays - where does that leave us? >Games should be released on Thursdays as that is late night shopping in most >centres for us poor buggers who have to work! >Iain Games always used to get released on a Monday as well, up until a few years ago. I can't see why they just can't be sold as soon as they get to the shops like in the US. -- Sean Black

traditionally folks here get payed on a friday (less so these days) also a lot of folks get friday as a half day so they can spent their wad as it were - if its been out for a few days already, then they might resist the temptation more easily - i suppose (for what its worth, i downloaded the myth version, and wiped it after a day - i am so glad i didn't waste my money on f1_2000 as i only have a medium spec pc) col On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:53:15 -0500, James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (19 lines)

>On the following date: 22 Mar 2000 20:06:51 GMT, said person(s) >[email hidden] (David Buttery) stated: > >>.... as British games are almost always >>released on Fridays. > >Could someone explain to me why that is? >Why are games in the UK released on a certain "day"? >Just think it's odd. > > >- James "Gunslinger" Wohlever >[email hidden] > >Techware Computer Services >http://techware.gtinsider.com > >Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: >[email hidden]

A nice combination of conspiratorial rant and silly whine. I am not the first one to point out that while some RAS vets (of which I am hardly one) did out-and-out condemn warez, most simply wanted to discourage it being given such active and public approbation on a newsgroup which some serious game and hardware developers actually frequent, and possibly respect. I assume that those who did find F1 2000, did so on one of the MANY warez sites (and NG's) which have been listed here over the last few days. In other words, you're not being oppressed. And what you see as selfish grandstanding has, in most cases, simply been attempts at being subtle about theft, and considerate about the collective wishes (as expressed via charter) of those who frequent this very public space. love and kisses, DK "Chris Bloom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> Obviously F1 2000 is available through legitimate means already > as I see plenty of views about it from the "moral guardians" of > RAS (or the "RAS Veterans" as they like to be known) who have > let it be known that they condemn the use of Warez. > > Because it is usual for them to let everyone else know that they > know something we don't, but feel they look clever if they don't > tell us the full story behind it or where to find it. They > won't tell us where we can also legitimatly purchase F1 2000. > > Chris > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network

* > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! >

In article <8bbq52$8jt$[email hidden]>, "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote: >A nice combination of conspiratorial rant and silly whine. Thankyou;) * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

'Twas the *least* I could do. (My, it's gotten nasty in here lately . . .) -DK "Chris Bloom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> In article <8bbq52$8jt$[email hidden]>, "David Karr" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >A nice combination of conspiratorial rant and silly whine. > > Thankyou;) > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network

* > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! >

CDs, vids, and DVDs are released on Mondays - where does that leave us? Games should be released on Thursdays as that is late night shopping in most centres for us poor buggers who have to work! Iain ColinB <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (37 lines)

> traditionally folks here get payed on a friday (less so these days) > also a lot of folks get friday as a half day so they can spent their > wad as it were - if its been out for a few days already, then they > might resist the temptation more easily - i suppose > > (for what its worth, i downloaded the myth version, and wiped it after > a day - i am so glad i didn't waste my money on f1_2000 as i only have > a medium spec pc) > > col > > > > > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:53:15 -0500, James Wohlever > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >On the following date: 22 Mar 2000 20:06:51 GMT, said person(s) > >[email hidden] (David Buttery) stated: > > > >>.... as British games are almost always > >>released on Fridays. > > > >Could someone explain to me why that is? > >Why are games in the UK released on a certain "day"? > >Just think it's odd. > > > > > >- James "Gunslinger" Wohlever > >[email hidden] > > > >Techware Computer Services > >http://techware.gtinsider.com > > > >Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: > >[email hidden] >

Obviously Irony tends to get watered down by 6000-12000 odd miles of copper wire and fibre optic cable? Chris * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

On Fri 24 Mar 2000 03:00:22a, ymenard wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote >> I thought the Qu�becquois got rid of their more extreme >> translation laws after the last election? > >Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culture >from the Americanization and oppression we have dealt with for >centuries.

<snip> I may have put my point badly there. I am all in favour of bilingual signs/labelling etc - I have a Welsh background, and all public bodies in Wales are now required (under the Welsh Language Act, if you're interested) to have an official bilingualism policy. The only thing I object to is the (possibly isolated) cases in which people have been stopped from using English at all. That seems to me to have nasty Big Brother-ish overtones. But I certainly agree with you that a monolingual, monocultural planet would be a dreary place. Let's all learn lots of languages! Dw i'n hoffi yn dysgu'r iaith Cymraeg! (whihc means "I like learning the Welsh language!") -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Heh heh heh.... love it. After living through the October crisis, the various referendums (referendi?) the PQ and the Bloc, I was kind of happy to move over to Europe for a while, if for anything to get away from the constant flip-flopping from one moment to the next of Quebecois discussing the sovereignity issue. Stephen rob <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> I thought the Qu�becquois got rid of their more extreme translation > >> laws after the last election? > > > >Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culture from the > >Americanization and oppression we have dealt with for centuries. It's

quite

Quoted text (17 lines)

> >hard to be a 8million society surrounded by 300 million English-speaking > >people. You have to fight to simply save what you love, which is our > >culture. > > > Geez, get your stories straight! This is a total contradiction from > what you were preaching in the "other" NG a couple of weeks ago. > Didn't you say that after separation the government of Quebec would > provide its citizens with unlimited access to all of the American TV > channels that the oppressive CRTC was preventing them from seeing, and > that you had statistics that proved that this is what the majority of > Quebecers wanted? In your own words: > > > >Our culture is America, and our tradition/history is French-based. > > >It's pure bollock, we are Americans, we just speak French. Our main

culture

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >is the same, just different on some aspects but overall, we are the same > >people. > > >We should have ESPN. ESPN2. CNN. DIscovery Channel US. > >Disney Channel. TBS. TNT. USA Network. VH1. C-SPAN. MSNBC. ZDTV. > >HBO. Showtime. StarZ. That's what us Quebecers want. > > >We have had US channels for years, but we do not agree -at all- with the

CRTC

Quoted text (13 lines)

> >laws saying that the influx of American culture would assimilate us. > > But, yet, it's okay if the government of Quebec feels that > Americanization is such a problem that it has to have laws to protect > its citizens from it??? > > So, who is protecting who from what, and why are they doing it if > those who they are trying to protect don't want to be protected? <g>. > > > > >

ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aTAC4.6011$[email hidden]... > "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I thought the Qu�becquois got rid of their more extreme translation > > laws after the last election? > > Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culture from the > Americanization and oppression we have dealt with for centuries. It'squite > hard to be a 8million society surrounded by 300 million English-speaking > people. You have to fight to simply save what you love, which is our > culture. > I think you will find the cultural groups of Switzerland (Italian, French, German, Romansch) have no problems maintaining their identity without the same Draconian laws that were implemented in Quebec. You can't legislate a cultural identity. You have to nurture it out of a desire to preserve it. Stephen

On the following date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:39:51 -0600, said person(s) rrevved <[email hidden]> stated: >So why don't you move out of your home and let the Indians have >'their' land back? He's got ya there. Move back to jolly old England and left the Indians have their land back :) - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever [email hidden] Techware Computer Services http://techware.gtinsider.com Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: [email hidden]

"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote > I thought the Qu�becquois got rid of their more extreme translation > laws after the last election? Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culture from the Americanization and oppression we have dealt with for centuries. It's quite hard to be a 8million society surrounded by 300 million English-speaking people. You have to fight to simply save what you love, which is our culture. Notice that in many countries you are seeing this appear, per example in some cities of Southern California. Not to say the law is perfect, since there is some small flaws. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote > Careful when you use the collective "we". I don't buy the argument.Until > now, I have based my purchase decisions, moviegoing decisions, music > decisions, book-buying decisions etc. on reviews written by people whohave > received their evaluation copies or pre-screenings through legit channels. I was implying via legitimite channels also. Sorry for the confusion. Im more trying to point out the fact that people want to know before the product or Entertainment is released, whatever the way is legit or not. > Or at least I used to; now it seems, for sim software, the legitimate > reviews are going to be drowned out by those who are scrambling to be the > first to try a new product and post their own "official" review. Seemslike > a bit of an ego thing to me. Well, I have mixed feelings also. It could be ego, but aren't they actually helping people in that way? There is always ego involved and this newsgroup has a fair share (I don't hide that fact), but the principal reason is to inform people. Name me a good reliable racing software reviewer? There is Randy Magruder, and then it mostly comes from racing-oriented sites such as High Gear @ cie. If the user want more depth information, get a more overall mass opinion or simply want to be informed about a question, he has only here to go :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Hmm too bad the native indians couldn't have done that....... "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aTAC4.6011$[email hidden]... > "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I thought the Qu�becquois got rid of their more extreme translation > > laws after the last election? > > Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culture from the > Americanization and oppression we have dealt with for centuries. It'squite

Quoted text (14 lines)

> hard to be a 8million society surrounded by 300 million English-speaking > people. You have to fight to simply save what you love, which is our > culture. > > Notice that in many countries you are seeing this appear, per example in > some cities of Southern California. Not to say the law is perfect, since > there is some small flaws. > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

"Stiff one" <[email hidden]> wrote > Hmm too bad the native indians couldn't have done that....... It's unfortunate and I would agree with you. They were outnumbered and the years of assimilation created that. I guess that possibly in long term the advantages were greater than the bad things that happened (in terms of human evolution). Be sure we will continue to fight against assimilation to keep our heritage and culture. Not that we have anything wrong against others. FYI Im 1 quarter Inuit :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

I could never understand why French Canadians complain about being oppressed when all Canadian's oppress the native Canadian. It's hypocritical of French Canadian's to complain about opression. Like the old joke, The Englishman say's to the Frenchman "sorry eh" then the Frenchman say's to the native Canadian "desole, eh". Je me souvenir, we're all Canadian........................ "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:o5CC4.6099$[email hidden]... > "Stiff one" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Hmm too bad the native indians couldn't have done that....... > > It's unfortunate and I would agree with you. They were outnumbered andthe > years of assimilation created that. I guess that possibly in long termthe > advantages were greater than the bad things that happened (in terms ofhuman > evolution). Be sure we will continue to fight against assimilation tokeep

Quoted text (11 lines)

> our heritage and culture. Not that we have anything wrong against others. > FYI Im 1 quarter Inuit :) > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

We have we actually and we live under a bridge like a couple of troll's. As well we are the basis of the story for Billy Goats Gruff............................Oh yes our homes have been turned into casino's "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:23:48 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]>wrote: > > >"Stiff one" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> Hmm too bad the native indians couldn't have done that....... > > > >It's unfortunate and I would agree with you. They were outnumbered andthe

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >years of assimilation created that. > > So why don't you move out of your home and let the Indians have > 'their' land back? > > -- > * rrev at mindspring dot com *

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

>"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote >> I thought the Qu�becquois got rid of their more extreme translation >> laws after the last election? > >Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culture from the >Americanization and oppression we have dealt with for centuries. It's quite >hard to be a 8million society surrounded by 300 million English-speaking >people. You have to fight to simply save what you love, which is our >culture.

Geez, get your stories straight! This is a total contradiction from what you were preaching in the "other" NG a couple of weeks ago. Didn't you say that after separation the government of Quebec would provide its citizens with unlimited access to all of the American TV channels that the oppressive CRTC was preventing them from seeing, and that you had statistics that proved that this is what the majority of Quebecers wanted? In your own words:

Quoted text (12 lines)

>Our culture is America, and our tradition/history is French-based. >It's pure bollock, we are Americans, we just speak French. Our main culture >is the same, just different on some aspects but overall, we are the same >people. >We should have ESPN. ESPN2. CNN. DIscovery Channel US. >Disney Channel. TBS. TNT. USA Network. VH1. C-SPAN. MSNBC. ZDTV. >HBO. Showtime. StarZ. That's what us Quebecers want. >We have had US channels for years, but we do not agree -at all- with the CRTC >laws saying that the influx of American culture would assimilate us.

But, yet, it's okay if the government of Quebec feels that Americanization is such a problem that it has to have laws to protect its citizens from it??? So, who is protecting who from what, and why are they doing it if those who they are trying to protect don't want to be protected? <g>.

A free Quebec MUST have Speedvision!

"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote > I may have put my point badly there. I am all in favour of bilingual > signs/labelling etc - I have a Welsh background, and all public bodies > in Wales are now required (under the Welsh Language Act, if you're > interested) to have an official bilingualism policy. I fully agree with that also, in fact it's how it works here in some cases. It not required to have both language as the English portion in Qu�bec is trully minimal (under 10% of the population). > The only thing I object to is the (possibly isolated) cases in which > people have been stopped from using English at all. That seems to me to > have nasty Big Brother-ish overtones. Naw, we're required to learn English all through our education system. And darn we're surrounded by 300 million English-speakers, it's a necessary for us to know how to speak English for business and even simple-day activities. Which is why some other person has replied on an old thread we had on N3.discussion about the exclusion of other society television by English-Canadians. Those people want to protect their culture by eliminating all the others, while we have a very open moral view on all the international cultures, including America. > But I certainly agree with you that a monolingual, monocultural planet > would be a dreary place. Let's all learn lots of languages! I know at least 3language, 4 if you include Ancient roman :) Good thread, -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote > I think you will find the cultural groups of Switzerland (Italian, French, > German, Romansch) have no problems maintaining their identity without the > same Draconian laws that were implemented in Quebec. You can't legislatea > cultural identity. You have to nurture it out of a desire to preserve it. Don't have any problems with that neither. Our culture is very international, since it's a mixture of about every society in existence. But yet, the problem is different than in Europe. Are you surrounded by 300 million English-speakers geographically? Take a map and look for the province of Qu�bec. You'll see that we are indeed surrounded everywhere except from the North (but there's nothing up North mostly). So our role is to protect our culture, while at the same time Internationalising it `;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"rob" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Geez, get your stories straight! This is a total contradiction from > what you were preaching in the "other" NG a couple of weeks ago. > Didn't you say that after separation the government of Quebec would > provide its citizens with unlimited access to all of the American TV > channels that the oppressive CRTC was preventing them from seeing, and > that you had statistics that proved that this is what the majority of > Quebecers wanted? In your own words:

This is a completely different point. We have access to every International culture here, except for America. English-Canadian CRTC laws protect themselves by eliminating other cultures, which is something we don't want to do. Are we eliminating other languages ? Nope, they have the right to do anything in English. You know that English-speakers in Qu�bec actually live in a micro-society, with their own Education and Health system, with specials laws made for them exclusively? You fail to realise the difference between protecting our culture and the opening to other cultures. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

A free Quebec MUST have Speedvision!

Don't even try to understand him. Mordechai Richler would have a field day with this... Stephen rob <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > > Okay, so which is it? On one hand, taking about Quebec law, you say , > ..." and then you say "We have access to every International culture > here except for America". So, you want to be open to other cultures, > yet you let your government pass laws to restrict this openness. > > > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >You fail to realise the difference between protecting our culture and the > >opening to other cultures. > > Using your previous logic, there IS no difference, since, by your own > admission, the way the Quebec government "protects your culture" is by > passing laws that restrict the openness to other cultures. Your > quote: "Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our > culture from the Americanization...". > >

On Fri 24 Mar 2000 11:32:22p, ymenard wrote: <snip> >It not required to have both language as the English portion >in Qu�bec is trully minimal (under 10% of the population). But in Monmouthshire (south-east Wales, right near the English border) only 3% are native Welsh-speakers, and the bilingualism laws still apply. You can't put up an English-only roadsign in Monmouth, and nor should you be able to put up a French-only one in Montr�al. <snip> >I know at least 3language, 4 if you include Ancient roman :) Eheu! The nom and the prenom giv The verb-noun infinitiv Bebop bebop (See the Molesworth books by Geoffrey Willans and Ronald Searle, which start with "Down with Skool" - as any fule kno.) -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

"Barton Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote > A free Quebec MUST have Speedvision! yep! ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Okay, so which is it? On one hand, taking about Quebec law, you say , ..." and then you say "We have access to every International culture here except for America". So, you want to be open to other cultures, yet you let your government pass laws to restrict this openness. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >You fail to realise the difference between protecting our culture and the >opening to other cultures. Using your previous logic, there IS no difference, since, by your own admission, the way the Quebec government "protects your culture" is by passing laws that restrict the openness to other cultures. Your quote: "Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culture from the Americanization...".

Frank, you continue to bring this garbage up! The line you espouse is not held by the majority of the people living in your province. You continue to twist and distort the truth to meet your own personal political agenda. There is no oppression in Quebec by any stretch of the imagination. Your ignorance of history and the laws amazes me! I have got into this discussion with you in the past and I know it is a waste of time. This protecting of culture you keep mentioning is a short form for bigotry. Why don't you tell others here how certain groups of people in Montreal will throw rocks through the windows of a certain Florist in Rosemont I believe, who has refused for years to change his signage. Quebec has its own distinct laws, taxation, judicial and health care system. So much for us anglophones imposing our ways on you. Time for a reality check Frank, the real world awaits you! Pete "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aTAC4.6011$[email hidden]... > Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culture from the > Americanization and oppression we have dealt with for centuries. It'squite

Quoted text (14 lines)

> hard to be a 8million society surrounded by 300 million English-speaking > people. You have to fight to simply save what you love, which is our > culture. > > Notice that in many countries you are seeing this appear, per example in > some cities of Southern California. Not to say the law is perfect, since > there is some small flaws. > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

On Sat 25 Mar 2000 12:19:31a, ymenard wrote: >"Barton Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote >> A free Quebec MUST have Speedvision! > >yep! ;-)<snip> T�l� � Grand Vitesse, you mean, surely? :-) -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On Wed 29 Mar 2000 08:56:05p, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

>While you are sojourning in Switzerland, perhaps you should >familiarize yourself with the language policies of a canton such as, >say, the Ticino, just down the way. Its laws on Italian are far >stricter than Quebec's (German schooling is banned, for example, in >spite of the presence of a substantial German-speaking minority). >These laws have been upheld by the Swiss federal court, contrary to >Quebec's, which have been largely emasculated by the Supreme Court >of Canada. > >Marco A.

Which I imagine is one of the many reasons Switzerland doesn't want to join the EU, since that would make a ban on German schooling illegal (Turkey has the same problem with regard to Turkish). Mind you, Switzerland isn't known for its progressiveness in minority rights areas - look how hard it is to get citizenship for a foreign resident. -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On Wed 29 Mar 2000 10:59:11p, David Buttery wrote:

Quoted text (16 lines)

>On Wed 29 Mar 2000 08:56:05p, [email hidden] wrote: > >>While you are sojourning in Switzerland, perhaps you should >>familiarize yourself with the language policies of a canton such >>as, say, the Ticino, just down the way. Its laws on Italian are >>far stricter than Quebec's (German schooling is banned, for >>example, in spite of the presence of a substantial German-speaking >>minority). These laws have been upheld by the Swiss federal court, >>contrary to Quebec's, which have been largely emasculated by the >>Supreme Court of Canada. >> >>Marco A. > >Which I imagine is one of the many reasons Switzerland doesn't want >to join the EU, since that would make a ban on German schooling >illegal (Turkey has the same problem with regard to Turkish).

<snip> Oops - I meant Kurdish. -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

In article <8bfae6$4vtgc$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aTAC4.6011$[email hidden]... > > "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > I thought the Qu�becquois got rid of their more extremetranslation > > > laws after the last election? > > > > Those laws are neither extreme, just a protection of our culturefrom the > > Americanization and oppression we have dealt with for centuries.It's > quite > > hard to be a 8million society surrounded by 300 millionEnglish-speaking > > people. You have to fight to simply save what you love, which is our > > culture. > > > > I think you will find the cultural groups of Switzerland (Italian,French, > German, Romansch) have no problems maintaining their identity withoutthe > same Draconian laws that were implemented in Quebec. You can'tlegislate a > cultural identity. You have to nurture it out of a desire to preserveit. If Canada were like Switzerland, there would not be one single school (public or private), university or hospital functioning in English in the province of Quebec. And there would be not one single French-language institution outside Quebec either. While you are sojourning in Switzerland, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the language policies of a canton such as, say, the Ticino, just down the way. Its laws on Italian are far stricter than Quebec's (German schooling is banned, for example, in spite of the presence of a substantial German-speaking minority). These laws have been upheld by the Swiss federal court, contrary to Quebec's, which have been largely emasculated by the Supreme Court of Canada. Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Which I imagine is one of the many reasons Switzerland doesn't want to join the EU, since that would make a ban on German schooling illegal (Turkey has the same problem with regard to Turkish). Mind you, Switzerland isn't known for its progressiveness in minority rights areas - look how hard it is to get citizenship for a foreign resident. -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On Thu 30 Mar 2000 03:40:35p, wrote: >In article <[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote:<snip>

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> Which I imagine is one of the many reasons Switzerland doesn't >> want to >join the >> EU, > >I never suspected this to be the reason. Perhaps you know something >that I don't, however.

I said "one of the many reasons". I'd imagine the main reasons have to do with the financial system. >>since that would make a ban on German schooling illegal > >But Switzerland cannot be accused of not allowing German to >flourish, since three-quarters of Switzerland are set aside as >German-only zones. Of course, German is not allowed to flourish in >the historically French and Italian zones. Why shouldn't all the languages be allowed to flourish everywhere? Banning a language is a regressive and repressive step. A German-only zone is just as bad as an anti-German zone. If my (mostly white English-speaking) home town imposed a ban on someone who wanted to set up (say) an Urdu-medium school, there would be a huge outcry, and it would probably be ruled illegal. >>(Turkey >has the >> same problem with regard to Kurdish). > >But Turkey is still going to be an EU member no matter what, I'd >say. It will be eventually, but only when it: a) allows Kurdish schooling and radio (I checked, and this is a condition of entry), and b) drops the death penalty.

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> Mind you, Switzerland isn't known for its progressiveness in >> minority >rights >> areas > >Although one must not lose sight of the fact that German is not a >"minority" language in Switzerland. French and Italian are.

Well, in that case the equivalent would be a ban on English in the mostly Welsh-speaking areas on North Wales. Which wouldn't be a good thing either. >All in all, language rights in Switzerland are not suppressed. They >are circumscribed based on territoriality. Which has unpleasant resonances of the old South African "homelands". >>- look how hard it is to get citizenship for a foreign resident. > >True, but this is a completely different issue. And is it really >that much easier for a foreigner to obtain citizenship in EU member >Germany and EU member Great Britain? If they're European and have lived and worked there for years. In the EU, you can't use foreign labour for years and then throw people out when the economic conditions get hard. -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

> On Wed 29 Mar 2000 08:56:05p, [email hidden] wrote: > > >While you are sojourning in Switzerland, perhaps you should > >familiarize yourself with the language policies of a canton such as, > >say, the Ticino, just down the way. Its laws on Italian are far > >stricter than Quebec's (German schooling is banned, for example, in > >spite of the presence of a substantial German-speaking minority). > >These laws have been upheld by the Swiss federal court, contrary to > >Quebec's, which have been largely emasculated by the Supreme Court > >of Canada. > > > >Marco A. > > Which I imagine is one of the many reasons Switzerland doesn't want to

join the > EU, I never suspected this to be the reason. Perhaps you know something that I don't, however. >since that would make a ban on German schooling illegal But Switzerland cannot be accused of not allowing German to flourish, since three-quarters of Switzerland are set aside as German-only zones. Of course, German is not allowed to flourish in the historically French and Italian zones. >(Turkeyhas the > same problem with regard to Kurdish). But Turkey is still going to be an EU member no matter what, I'd say. > Mind you, Switzerland isn't known for its progressiveness in minorityrights > areas Although one must not lose sight of the fact that German is not a "minority" language in Switzerland. French and Italian are. All in all, language rights in Switzerland are not suppressed. They are circumscribed based on territoriality. >- look how hard it is to get citizenship for a foreign resident. True, but this is a completely different issue. And is it really that much easier for a foreigner to obtain citizenship in EU member Germany and EU member Great Britain? Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bvp10$ssj$[email hidden]... > > But Switzerland cannot be accused of not allowing German to flourish, > since three-quarters of Switzerland are set aside as German-only zones. > Of course, German is not allowed to flourish in the historically French > and Italian zones. > I wasn't aware of the ban on German schooling in the Tessin. I only get down there for rock climbing and cycling, not to delve into their legislative books :-) I based my opinion purely on the anecdotal observations of German language signs wherever it was useful for them to have German (i.e. border areas). In Quebec, you would have trouble even to hang an english sign in your window. But, I see now it's apples and oranges, and I must admit I didn't know as much as I should have about my current homebase before posting. Perhaps the legislature is there, as you say. In hindsight, there certainly is friction between the groups, usually around referendum time when the German majority crushes whatever the French or Italians want. Oh well. > > All in all, language rights in Switzerland are not suppressed. They are > circumscribed based on territoriality. > With more official bilinguality and triliniguality per region than I would have expected. I live in a German town, but all government documents are in three languages. Don't know about the schooling possibilities. > >- look how hard it is to get citizenship for a foreign resident. > > True, but this is a completely different issue. And is it really that > much easier for a foreigner to obtain citizenship in EU member Germany > and EU member Great Britain? > It's certainly no easier in America. Overall, I have found the experience of working as a foreigner in Switzerland quite painless, but that may because I am in the technology industry. I also know in the back of my mind that I could have my permit refused for renewal the next time I go. Citizenship? Happy with my own, thanks. Stephen (who learned a bit about the place he lives)

In article <8bvq8g$5gtmn$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:8bvp10$ssj$[email hidden]... > > > > But Switzerland cannot be accused of not allowing German toflourish, > > since three-quarters of Switzerland are set aside as German-onlyzones. > > Of course, German is not allowed to flourish in the historicallyFrench > > and Italian zones. > > > > I wasn't aware of the ban on German schooling in the Tessin. You might also be interested in knowing that in the 60s or 70s, a group of French-speaking parents living in Zurich wanted to open a French private school with their own money. The canton prevented them from doing so, so the parents went to the federal court to request the right to spend their money the way they wanted to. The court ruled that the canton was within its prerogatives to ban all French schooling (including private schools). >I onlyget > down there for rock climbing and cycling, not to delve into their > legislative books :-) I based my opinion purely on the anecdotal > observations of German language signs wherever it was useful for themto > have German (i.e. border areas). According to the law, most signs in the Ticino must be in Italian only, although some German signs are permitted (provided that Italian is still predominant). Prior to the passage of this law, the situation there was very similar to that in Quebec pre-1977: mostly German-only signs in a predominantly Italian-speaking area, due to the demographic weight of German speakers across Switzerland as a whole. >In Quebec, you would have troubleeven to > hang an english sign in your window. If such is true, then the people right across the street from me would be in trouble: their English-only sign has been there for a few months. Actually, their sign is (officially) illegal because it doesn't have any French on it, not because it has English. >But, I see now it's apples and > oranges, and I must admit I didn't know as much as I should have aboutmy > current homebase before posting. Perhaps the legislature is there, asyou > say. In hindsight, there certainly is friction between the groups,usually > around referendum time when the German majority crushes whatever theFrench > or Italians want. Oh well. > > > > > All in all, language rights in Switzerland are not suppressed. Theyare > > circumscribed based on territoriality. > > > > With more official bilinguality and triliniguality per region than Iwould > have expected. I live in a German town, but all government documentsare in > three languages. They are probably federal documents produced for distribution across the country. By law, almost all of the cantons are unilingual. And even those (two? three?) which are bilingual are split up into French-only and German-only zones. >>Don't know about the schooling possibilities. Schooling is generally only available in the canton's official language. There are very very few exceptions : Fribourg/Freiburg and Biel/Bienne are the only bilingual cities in Switzerland. As well, French schooling is available in the Swiss capital of Bern, although it is still officially a German-only city. To a Canadian, a city such as Geneva certainly appears to be much more French than say, Montreal, in spite of the fact that 48% of Geneva's population are "foreigners" of various nationalities prone to using English as a lingua franca. When one considers that French speakers (18%) in Switzerland are proportionately less numerous than those in Canada (25%), yet there is a total absence of secessionist movements in Suisse romande (read French), there must be something right / wrong about the respective "places" French has in both countries. Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > >>since that would make a ban on German schooling illegal > > > >But Switzerland cannot be accused of not allowing German to > >flourish, since three-quarters of Switzerland are set aside as > >German-only zones. Of course, German is not allowed to flourish in > >the historically French and Italian zones. > > Why shouldn't all the languages be allowed to flourish everywhere?

When once considers Swiss and Central European demographics and economic trends, allowing German to flourish (my term, I realize) everywhere in such a small country would inevitably lead to an all-German Switzerland within a few generations, or perhaps a breaking up of the country due to a frustration with the encroachment of German on traditionally French- or Italian-speaking areas. >Banning a > language is a regressive and repressive step. It depends what you mean by "banning" a language. In most instances in Switzerland, none of the national languages are banned. However, the national languages receive no government support outside of their designated territory. >A German-only zone isjust as bad > as an anti-German zone. I will grant you that the interdiction of the French private school in Zurich is a bit extreme. > If my (mostly white English-speaking) hometown imposed > a ban on someone who wanted to set up (say) an Urdu-medium school,there would > be a huge outcry, and it would probably be ruled illegal. Although you will admit that a comparison between the relative "power" of Urdu in say, Lancashire, and German in Mitteleuropa is tenuous at best.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >>(Turkey > >has the > >> same problem with regard to Kurdish). > > > >But Turkey is still going to be an EU member no matter what, I'd > >say. > > It will be eventually, but only when it: a) allows Kurdish schooling

and radio > (I checked, and this is a condition of entry), and b) drops the deathpenalty. I do consider these requirements to be good things, BTW.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >> Mind you, Switzerland isn't known for its progressiveness in > >> minority > >rights > >> areas > > > >Although one must not lose sight of the fact that German is not a > >"minority" language in Switzerland. French and Italian are. > > Well, in that case the equivalent would be a ban on English in the

mostly > Welsh-speaking areas on North Wales. Which wouldn't be a good thingeither. Since I am neither Welsh, nor English, nor British, it is not really up to me to decide what measures, if any, should be taken. That said, the current free-for-all situation can only strengthen English to the detriment of Welsh. Eventually, these Welsh-speaking areas will (unfortunately) become English-speaking like the rest of Great Britain. > >All in all, language rights in Switzerland are not suppressed. They > >are circumscribed based on territoriality. > > Which has unpleasant resonances of the old South African "homelands". Were the various nations that were herded into the bantustans by South Africa consulted on this process? Swiss language territoriality is the result of a constitutional agreement between willing parties. There is no rapport whatsoever between Switzerland and what happened in South Africa with the bantustans. Though by no means perfect, language territoriality (like the Swiss and, to a lesser degree, the Belgians) is a compromise solution intended to prevent states from breaking up because of linguistic and cultural tensions. Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Thu 30 Mar 2000 02:00:58a, EldredP wrote: >In article <aWSC4.8086$[email hidden]>, "ymenard" ><[email hidden]> writes:<snip> >>I know at least 3language, 4 if you include Ancient roman :) > >Did you learn the different languages when you were a kid? It seems >very difficult to learn another language as an adult.<snip> It is. There's a fair bit of research that's been done on this, which seems to suggest that a baby up to about 7 months can learn *any* language perfectly. After that, the ability declines, and learning in adulthood is very difficult. I know I have trouble with my Welsh. -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

In article <aWSC4.8086$[email hidden]>, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> writes: >> But I certainly agree with you that a monolingual, monocultural planet >> would be a dreary place. Let's all learn lots of languages! > >I know at least 3language, 4 if you include Ancient roman :) Did you learn the different languages when you were a kid? It seems very difficult to learn another language as an adult. I took French as a kid(forgotten it). I'd like to re-learn French, and learn Spanish, and maybe German. It doesn't seem EASY now, though... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Sim racers ignore. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bvv0o$44v$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> In article <8bvq8g$5gtmn$[email hidden]>, > You might also be interested in knowing that in the 60s or 70s, a group > of French-speaking parents living in Zurich wanted to open a French > private school with their own money. The canton prevented them from > doing so, so the parents went to the federal court to request the right > to spend their money the way they wanted to. The court ruled that the > canton was within its prerogatives to ban all French schooling > (including private schools).

I polled various Swiss acquaintances in GR, BE, SO, ZH and SG. None of them believed that that was the case anymore. This may only reflect a discrepancy between public perception and legislative reality, however, as there are many outdated laws on the books in many countries. Their overall opinion is that language issues are segregated simply because the French tend to stay in the same place year after year, as do the Germans, Italians etc. A French school in GR would fail due to lack of interest, not due to legislation. The attitude that they have also is that, if they move from Geneva to Zurich, then they will learn German and conduct their daily life in German, rather than force their French needs on the others. I don't believe necessarily in legislating assimilation, but from a practical standpoint it is what I have done (I work and conduct my daily life in German despite being a native English speaker) and what most reasonable people would do.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > With more official bilinguality and triliniguality per region than I > > would have expected. I live in a German town, but all government > > documents are in three languages. > > They are probably federal documents produced for distribution across the > country. By law, almost all of the cantons are unilingual. And > even those (two? three?) which are bilingual are split up into > French-only and German-only zones.

No, they were Kantonal documents from SO. But it's true that my driving license here is German and French only, whereas my old GR license was German and Italian (and perhaps even Romansch - I forget). > > To a Canadian, a city such as Geneva certainly appears to be much more > French than say, Montreal, in spite of the fact that 48% of Geneva's > population are "foreigners" of various nationalities prone to using > English as a lingua franca. > Actually, I found Geneva drab and lacking French character precisely because it is such an international business town.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> When one considers that French speakers (18%) in Switzerland are > proportionately less numerous than those in Canada (25%), yet there > is a total absence of secessionist movements in Suisse romande (read > French), there must be something right / wrong about the respective > "places" French has in both countries. > > Marco A. >

And reading this last paragraph has reminded me of what I really like about USENET. You have helped me to see some new things here and in fact change my opinion somewhat. I originally proposed that the various cultural groups within Switzerland peacefully coexisted, when in fact I now see they just ignore each other with the exception of certain border regions with no distinct language ties. Probably the reason it works here, and doesn't work in Canada if we just tell Quebec to do what they want while remaining a part of Canada, is that most regional hostilities were sorted out several hundred years ago, with the lines of demarcation shifting around until the Swiss finally agreed amongst themselves that "this is a French area" and "this is a German area". The bigger reason is probably that the government is much more provincial in Switzerland, with little influence from the federal government on day-to-day life. Much more money is transferred from federal to provincial governments in Canada, and this leads to resentment between provinces. With more policy decisions made at the federal level, there is also resentment if there is the perception of preferential treatment. Stephen

David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > >True, but this is a completely different issue. And is it really > >that much easier for a foreigner to obtain citizenship in EU member > >Germany and EU member Great Britain? > > If they're European and have lived and worked there for years. In the EU,you > can't use foreign labour for years and then throw people out when theeconomic > conditions get hard. > It is worth noting that the citizenship requirements are relaxing in Switzerland. This is a current topic in the newspapers. Stephen

On Thu 30 Mar 2000 08:41:57p, [email hidden] wrote: <snip>

Quoted text (7 lines)

>When once considers Swiss and Central European demographics and >economic trends, allowing German to flourish (my term, I realize) >everywhere in such a small country would inevitably lead to an >all-German Switzerland within a few generations, or perhaps a >breaking up of the country due to a frustration with the >encroachment of German on traditionally French- or Italian-speaking >areas.

That's where we fundamentally disagree. Exactly that situation pervades with respect to English in Wales - English is everywhere, a necessary language to get by in, and there are, for practical purposes, no monoglot Welsh speakers. I'd say that the UK would be considerably *less* stable if its minority languages were circumscribed on the Swiss model.

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>Banning a >> language is a regressive and repressive step. > >It depends what you mean by "banning" a language. In most instances >in Switzerland, none of the national languages are banned. However, >the national languages receive no government support outside of >their designated territory.

That's more reasonable. Welsh gets no support in England. But it would be perfectly legal to set up a Welsh-medium school in England if there was local support and it gave a good education. >>A German-only zone is >just as bad >> as an anti-German zone. > >I will grant you that the interdiction of the French private school >in Zurich is a bit extreme. Thankyou.

Quoted text (9 lines)

>> If my (mostly white English-speaking) home >town imposed >> a ban on someone who wanted to set up (say) an Urdu-medium school, >there would >> be a huge outcry, and it would probably be ruled illegal. > >Although you will admit that a comparison between the relative >"power" of Urdu in say, Lancashire, and German in Mitteleuropa is >tenuous at best.

It's not a great analogy, I agree, but that's the problem with being a native English speaker. I suppose I'll have to substitute "an American school", that being the only culture more dominant than ours. <snip> >Since I am neither Welsh, nor English, nor British, it is not really >up to me to decide what measures, if any, should be taken. That >said, the current free-for-all situation can only strengthen English >to the detriment of Welsh. Eventually, these Welsh-speaking areas >will (unfortunately) become English-speaking like the rest of Great >Britain. I think you somewhat misunderstand the situation with regard to Welsh. The Welsh language is probably in better shape now than it has been for decades, largely thanks to bilingualism being encouraged. The next census (in 2001) is expected to show an end to the decline in the number of Welsh-speakers - possibly even a small increase. This is in large part because of the huge increase in Welsh-medium schooling. In fact, bilingualism is now compulsory in Welsh schools - every pupil must learn Welsh *and* English from ages 5 to 16. This policy of bilingualism is, in most areas, extremely popular. Making some localities a "Welsh-only" zone would be a disaster.

Quoted text (11 lines)

>> >All in all, language rights in Switzerland are not suppressed. >> >They are circumscribed based on territoriality. >> >> Which has unpleasant resonances of the old South African >> "homelands". > >Were the various nations that were herded into the bantustans >by South Africa consulted on this process? Swiss language >territoriality is the result of a constitutional agreement between >willing parties. There is no rapport whatsoever between Switzerland >and what happened in South Africa with the bantustans.

Yes, but government through referendum does tend to lead to the dictatorship of the majority, with smaller groups getting sidelined. (That's by no means confined to Switzerland, I freely admit.) >Though by no means perfect, language territoriality (like the Swiss >and, to a lesser degree, the Belgians) is a compromise solution >intended to prevent states from breaking up because of linguistic >and cultural tensions. I agree. It's just that I prefer the Welsh model to the Swiss one. Looks like we'll have to agree to differ on that one. -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ca7qt$vbf$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> In In my experience, people in shops in Geneva > > will not spontaneously greet you in German or in English, which does > > happen on occasion in Montreal. > > Oops! Of course, I was referring to English rather than German in the > case of Montreal! > > Marco A. (longing for the good old days of the Brasserie Vieux-Munich on > rue St-Denis...) > >

Just curious... do you study these issues, or just have a higher than average interest in political matters? Your discussions are certainly more eloquent than the USENET norm. Stephen

On Mon 03 Apr 2000 02:26:17p, [email hidden] wrote: <snip>

Quoted text (13 lines)

>>This is in >> large part because of the huge increase in Welsh-medium schooling. >> In fact, bilingualism is now compulsory in Welsh schools - every >> pupil must learn Welsh *and* English from ages 5 to 16. This >> policy of bilingualism is, in most areas, extremely popular. >> Making some localities a "Welsh-only" zone would be a disaster. > >This sounds similar to what is being done to revive French in >Louisiana. I hate to sound cynical, but isn't true that most of >these measures usually come once a language has been so battered >that it's highly unlikely it will ever again reach a point where >engineers will use it to draft plans for bridges, mechanics to >change tires or doctors to perform surgery?

<snip> I was going to leave this thread there, but I think I need to answer this point. Welsh's position is far, *far* healthier than that of French in Louisiana, and likely to remain so. About 20% of the Welsh population speak it, but the distribution is very variable. In Gwynedd in the north west, for example, it's well over 60%, and anyone applying for a public sector job is required either to speak Welsh or to make a commitment to learn it within two years. And they're expected to use it regularly. In Llangefni, for example (the county town of Anglesey, a large island off the north-west coast for those that don't know), well over 80% speak it, and it is used every day. And in that part of Wales, you *do* hear people (including young people) using Welsh for ordering takeaways, paying in cheques at the bank, and, yes, conversations between mechanics changing tyres. If you go to Caernarfon, the most Welsh-speaking large twon in Wales, you will hear both English and Welsh. But the English mostly comes from visitors - the majority of locals speak Welsh as a first language. You'll hear a lot of Welsh spoken in the west of Wales - for example, Bangor, Bala, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion (Cardiganshire as was) - even as far east as Llandudno and Wrexham. In fact, in Ceredigion there is now a successful bilingual *commercial* radio station (an important point, as people tend to assume Welsh always needs state subsidy). What I am trying to say is that Welsh *is* used as a first language across a lot of Wales for mundane everyday tasks, such as those you mention. Forty years ago, saying the language was dying was the accepted view. Not any more - I'm pleased to say that the "Pisgodyn a Sglodion" (Fish & Chips) signs are here to stay! Slightly interesting fact no. 263546: the revival in Welsh is sometimes traced to a radio speech on the subject given in 1962. Is this the only time radio has rescued a language? -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> On Thu 30 Mar 2000 08:41:57p, [email hidden] wrote: > > <snip> > >When once considers Swiss and Central European demographics and > >economic trends, allowing German to flourish (my term, I realize) > >everywhere in such a small country would inevitably lead to an > >all-German Switzerland within a few generations, or perhaps a > >breaking up of the country due to a frustration with the > >encroachment of German on traditionally French- or Italian-speaking > >areas. > > That's where we fundamentally disagree. Exactly that situation

pervades > with respect to English in Wales - English is everywhere, a > necessary language to get by in, and there are, for practicalpurposes, > no monoglot Welsh speakers. I'd say that the UK would be considerably > *less* stable if its minority languages were circumscribed on theSwiss > model. I can see how this could be true in the UK. However, one of the main reasons must surely be that Welsh is "too far gone", at least in comparison to the vitality of French and Italian in Switzerland, French in Quebec or Catalan in Catalonia. <snip>

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >Since I am neither Welsh, nor English, nor British, it is not really > >up to me to decide what measures, if any, should be taken. That > >said, the current free-for-all situation can only strengthen English > >to the detriment of Welsh. Eventually, these Welsh-speaking areas > >will (unfortunately) become English-speaking like the rest of Great > >Britain. > > I think you somewhat misunderstand the situation with regard to Welsh. > The Welsh language is probably in better shape now than it has been

for > decades, largely thanks to bilingualism being encouraged. The next > census (in 2001) is expected to show an end to the decline in the > number of Welsh-speakers - possibly even a small increase. If it ends up being the case, it is certainly good news. >This is in > large part because of the huge increase in Welsh-medium schooling. In > fact, bilingualism is now compulsory in Welsh schools - every pupil > must learn Welsh *and* English from ages 5 to 16. This policy of > bilingualism is, in most areas, extremely popular. Making some > localities a "Welsh-only" zone would be a disaster. This sounds similar to what is being done to revive French in Louisiana. I hate to sound cynical, but isn't true that most of these measures usually come once a language has been so battered that it's highly unlikely it will ever again reach a point where engineers will use it to draft plans for bridges, mechanics to change tires or doctors to perform surgery? Given the damage that's been done to Welsh in the UK, Breton in France and French in Louisiana, current measures to promote these language are politically innocuous, aren't they?

Quoted text (14 lines)

> >> >All in all, language rights in Switzerland are not suppressed. > >> >They are circumscribed based on territoriality. > >> > >> Which has unpleasant resonances of the old South African > >> "homelands". > > > >Were the various nations that were herded into the bantustans > >by South Africa consulted on this process? Swiss language > >territoriality is the result of a constitutional agreement between > >willing parties. There is no rapport whatsoever between Switzerland > >and what happened in South Africa with the bantustans. > > Yes, but government through referendum does tend to lead to the > dictatorship of the majority,

Well, the whole majority vs. minority issue in apartheid South Africa was always a complex web, I'd say. >with smaller groups getting sidelined. > (That's by no means confined to Switzerland, I freely admit.) True that this is often the case. I'd say that the Swiss tried to get around this problem by massively decentralizing many powers to the cantons.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >Though by no means perfect, language territoriality (like the Swiss > >and, to a lesser degree, the Belgians) is a compromise solution > >intended to prevent states from breaking up because of linguistic > >and cultural tensions. > > I agree. It's just that I prefer the Welsh model to the Swiss one. > Looks like we'll have to agree to differ on that one.

Disagreements suit me just fine. I find I don't learn half as much from people who think the same way I do. Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8c1m74$5n5gp$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Sim racers ignore. > > <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:8bvv0o$44v$[email hidden]... > > In article <8bvq8g$5gtmn$[email hidden]>, > > You might also be interested in knowing that in the 60s or 70s, agroup > > of French-speaking parents living in Zurich wanted to open a French > > private school with their own money. The canton prevented them from > > doing so, so the parents went to the federal court to request theright > > to spend their money the way they wanted to. The court ruled thatthe > > canton was within its prerogatives to ban all French schooling > > (including private schools). > > I polled various Swiss acquaintances in GR, BE, SO, ZH and SG. None ofthem > believed that that was the case anymore. This may only reflect a > discrepancy between public perception and legislative reality,however, as > there are many outdated laws on the books in many countries. You're probably right that the laws may still exist but that they are no longer applied. I'd argue that it's because the damage is already done. It's like setting up French schools in the Canadian province of Manitoba now that French speakers are only 2% of the population. 100 years ago, when French speakers were 50% of Manitoba's population, the French language was effectively banned from public use, including all schools, hospitals and other institutions. In many areas of English Canada, promoting French (as has been done in recent years) poses about as much of a threat to the established English-only order as promoting Swahili in Iowa. I suspect the same may be true of most Swiss cantons with respect to minority languages. > Theiroverall > opinion is that language issues are segregated simply because theFrench > tend to stay in the same place year after year, as do the Germans,Italians > etc. This is true. But it will be interesting to see what will happen if the economic disparities continue to grow between the richer German-speaking areas and the French and Italian zones. >A French school in GR would fail due to lack of interest, not dueto > legislation. Yes, but this is probably a result of long-standing policies that were designed to foster that lack of interest. >The attitude that they have also is that, if they movefrom > Geneva to Zurich, then they will learn German and conduct their dailylife > in German, rather than force their French needs on the others. I don't > believe necessarily in legislating assimilation, but from a practical > standpoint it is what I have done (I work and conduct my daily life in > German despite being a native English speaker) and what mostreasonable > people would do. This is a major difference between Canada and Switzerland. > > > With more official bilinguality and triliniguality per region thanI > > > would have expected. I live in a German town, but all government > > > documents are in three languages. > > > > They are probably federal documents produced for distribution acrossthe > > country. By law, almost all of the cantons are unilingual. And > > even those (two? three?) which are bilingual are split up into > > French-only and German-only zones. > > No, they were Kantonal documents from SO. But it's true that mydriving > license here is German and French only, whereas my old GR license wasGerman > and Italian (and perhaps even Romansch - I forget). This is interesting. I guess it's up to each canton to decide how far it will go in using the other languages. I bet that schooling, courts and other public services are German-only, though. > > > > To a Canadian, a city such as Geneva certainly appears to be muchmore > > French than say, Montreal, in spite of the fact that 48% of Geneva's > > population are "foreigners" of various nationalities prone to using > > English as a lingua franca. > > > > Actually, I found Geneva drab and lacking French character preciselybecause > it is such an international business town. Well, Montreal certainly has more character (both French and otherwise) than Geneva, but I was just referring to the dominant presence of French in all aspects of life. In my experience, people in shops in Geneva will not spontaneously greet you in German or in English, which does happen on occasion in Montreal.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > When one considers that French speakers (18%) in Switzerland are > > proportionately less numerous than those in Canada (25%), yet there > > is a total absence of secessionist movements in Suisse romande (read > > French), there must be something right / wrong about the respective > > "places" French has in both countries. > > > > Marco A. > > > > And reading this last paragraph has reminded me of what I really like

about > USENET. You have helped me to see some new things here and in factchange > my opinion somewhat. I originally proposed that the various culturalgroups > within Switzerland peacefully coexisted, I'd say they do peacefully coexist. But call it an un-consummated marriage of convenience. >when in fact I now see theyjust > ignore each other with the exception of certain border regions with no > distinct language ties. Probably the reason it works here, and doesn'twork > in Canada if we just tell Quebec to do what they want while remaininga part > of Canada, is that most regional hostilities were sorted out severalhundred > years ago, with the lines of demarcation shifting around until theSwiss > finally agreed amongst themselves that "this is a French area" and"this is > a German area". The official line is that Swiss cantons are more homogenous linguistically than the Canadian provinces. Though thrown around quite often in Canada, this is actually a fallacious argument. Statistically-speaking, most Canadian provinces are "as English" as Zurich or Basel cantons are German or the Vaud is French. And Quebec is "as French" as the Ticino is Italian and is even "more French" than the canton of Geneva. > The bigger reason is probably that the government ismuch > more provincial in Switzerland, with little influence from the federal > government on day-to-day life. As you are probably aware, this was attempted during the Meech Lake constitutional talks in Canada between 1985 and 1990. >Much more money is transferred fromfederal > to provincial governments in Canada, and this leads to resentmentbetween > provinces. With more policy decisions made at the federal level, thereis > also resentment if there is the perception of preferential treatment. True. The Canadian way has been buying off provinces (especially Quebec) rather than granting something resembling Swiss-style autonomy. Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In In my experience, people in shops in Geneva > will not spontaneously greet you in German or in English, which does > happen on occasion in Montreal. Oops! Of course, I was referring to English rather than German in the case of Montreal! Marco A. (longing for the good old days of the Brasserie Vieux-Munich on rue St-Denis...) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8cbv9d$66n4o$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:8ca7qt$vbf$[email hidden]... > > In In my experience, people in shops in Geneva > > > will not spontaneously greet you in German or in English, whichdoes > > > happen on occasion in Montreal. > > > > Oops! Of course, I was referring to English rather than German inthe > > case of Montreal! > > > > Marco A. (longing for the good old days of the BrasserieVieux-Munich on > > rue St-Denis...) > > > > > > Just curious... do you study these issues, or just have a higher than > average interest in political matters? Your discussions are certainlymore > eloquent than the USENET norm. > Thanks for the compliment. This may sound a bit nerdy, but I actually study this stuff for fun. Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote:

Quoted text (23 lines)

> On Mon 03 Apr 2000 02:26:17p, [email hidden] wrote: > > <snip> > >>This is in > >> large part because of the huge increase in Welsh-medium schooling. > >> In fact, bilingualism is now compulsory in Welsh schools - every > >> pupil must learn Welsh *and* English from ages 5 to 16. This > >> policy of bilingualism is, in most areas, extremely popular. > >> Making some localities a "Welsh-only" zone would be a disaster. > > > >This sounds similar to what is being done to revive French in > >Louisiana. I hate to sound cynical, but isn't true that most of > >these measures usually come once a language has been so battered > >that it's highly unlikely it will ever again reach a point where > >engineers will use it to draft plans for bridges, mechanics to > >change tires or doctors to perform surgery? > <snip> > > I was going to leave this thread there, but I think I need to answer > this point. Welsh's position is far, *far* healthier than that of > French in Louisiana, and likely to remain so. About 20% of the Welsh > population speak it, but the distribution is very variable. In Gwynedd > in the north west, for example, it's well over 60%, and anyone

applying

Quoted text (7 lines)

> for a public sector job is required either to speak Welsh or to make a > commitment to learn it within two years. And they're expected to use > it regularly. > > In Llangefni, for example (the county town of Anglesey, a large island > off the north-west coast for those that don't know), well over 80% > speak it, and it is used every day. And in that part of Wales, you

*do* > hear people (including young people) using Welsh for ordering > takeaways, paying in cheques at the bank, and, yes, conversations > between mechanics changing tyres. > > If you go to Caernarfon, the most Welsh-speaking large twon in Wales, > you will hear both English and Welsh. But the English mostly comesfrom > visitors - the majority of locals speak Welsh as a first language. > You'll hear a lot of Welsh spoken in the west of Wales - for example, > Bangor, Bala, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion (Cardiganshire as was) - > even as far east as Llandudno and Wrexham. In fact, in Ceredigionthere

Quoted text (10 lines)

> is now a successful bilingual *commercial* radio station (an important > point, as people tend to assume Welsh always needs state subsidy). > > What I am trying to say is that Welsh *is* used as a first language > across a lot of Wales for mundane everyday tasks, such as those you > mention. Forty years ago, saying the language was dying was the > accepted view. Not any more - I'm pleased to say that the "Pisgodyn a > Sglodion" (Fish & Chips) signs are here to stay! > > Slightly interesting fact no. 263546: the revival in Welsh is

sometimes > traced to a radio speech on the subject given in 1962. Is this theonly > time radio has rescued a language? I am very glad to hear this about Welsh. Now, I am curious to know if the areas where Welsh is resurgent are highly desireable areas where people from other areas would have a tendency to move to or if these are remote or slow-growth areas. (The experience in North America has been that minority languages have survived longest in areas that attract few newcomers.) Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > What I am trying to say is that Welsh *is* used as a first language > across a lot of Wales for mundane everyday tasks, such as those you > mention. Forty years ago, saying the language was dying was the > accepted view. Not any more - I'm pleased to say that the "Pisgodyn a > Sglodion" (Fish & Chips) signs are here to stay! >

And just to tenuously tie the Welsh thread to the Swiss threads together (all sim racers groan), in the research lab I worked in for the last three years, way up in the Eastern Swiss Alps in a town called Davos, we had quite a mix of nationalities. Three of the PhD students came from Wales, and different parts of Wales. All three spoke Welsh as their first language at work (obviously only with each other). Thay also spoke flawless English as well, of course, but that's beside the point. The point is that based on my limited statistical sampling, I would be inclined to believe that 100% of Welsh people between the ages of 20 and 26 speak Welsh. :-) Stephen

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> On Tue 04 Apr 2000 02:16:39p, [email hidden] wrote: > > >In article <[email hidden]>, > >[email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote: > > <snip> > >I am very glad to hear this about Welsh. Now, I am curious to know > >if the areas where Welsh is resurgent are highly desireable areas > >where people from other areas would have a tendency to move to or if > >these are remote or slow-growth areas. > > This is the most encouraging thing of all. Welsh is now seen in much

of > Wales as a "high-status" language, essential if you want to get thetop > jobs (mostly in the public sector, but it's becoming a good interview > plus point in the private sector too). Being able to say "Dw i'nsiarad

Quoted text (15 lines)

> Gymraeg" ("I speak Welsh") is seen as very positive - for example, the > Welsh Assembly is bilingual both in theory and in practice, though > admittedly not as much as it should be, as people tend to speak in > English to get on the UK-wide TV news. If I moved to Wales, I would > certainly learn Welsh properly - it's a good way to get on in life > these days. > > In fact, probably the highest growth in Welsh usage in the current > revival has been in Cardiff, where Welsh-medium schools are hugely > oversubscribed. Until very recently, there were too few "new speakers" > to make much of an impact, but on my occasional trips there, I'm > increasingly hearing parents taking their kids to school chatting with > them in Welsh, and the kids chatting amongst themselves in Welsh. > > >(The experience in North America has been that minority languages

have

Quoted text (19 lines)

> >survived longest in areas that attract few newcomers.) > > The interesting thing about Welsh is that there are two main > strongholds of the language. Firstly, the remote rural areas, as one > might expect; but secondly, the affluent urban areas (especially in > Cariff), which are generally populated by incomers who want to make > themselves part of the community, to differntiate themselves from > England, and who see the language as the obvious way of doing so. > > So, the situation of Welsh is very interesting, because it's a rare > case of a minority language which has a *higher* status than the > majority language in much of the country. I don't think it will be a > revival to rival Hebrew's (though that obviously was in very special > circumstances), but I do think that its prospects are good. > > PS: That radio speech in 1962 was called "Tynged yr iaith" (Death of > the language), and was given by Saunders Lewis. The only link I can > find to it is below, but it's on the website of the pressure > group Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society), who

are > somewhat strident in their Welshness, so the speech is given in the > original Welsh only! > Thank you for the insight. What is surprising is that the resurgence of Welsh is taking place in the absence of a strong secessionist movement, contrary to Scotland. Marco A. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Tue 04 Apr 2000 02:16:39p, [email hidden] wrote: >In article <[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote: <snip> >I am very glad to hear this about Welsh. Now, I am curious to know >if the areas where Welsh is resurgent are highly desireable areas >where people from other areas would have a tendency to move to or if >these are remote or slow-growth areas. This is the most encouraging thing of all. Welsh is now seen in much of Wales as a "high-status" language, essential if you want to get the top jobs (mostly in the public sector, but it's becoming a good interview plus point in the private sector too). Being able to say "Dw i'n siarad Gymraeg" ("I speak Welsh") is seen as very positive - for example, the Welsh Assembly is bilingual both in theory and in practice, though admittedly not as much as it should be, as people tend to speak in English to get on the UK-wide TV news. If I moved to Wales, I would certainly learn Welsh properly - it's a good way to get on in life these days. In fact, probably the highest growth in Welsh usage in the current revival has been in Cardiff, where Welsh-medium schools are hugely oversubscribed. Until very recently, there were too few "new speakers" to make much of an impact, but on my occasional trips there, I'm increasingly hearing parents taking their kids to school chatting with them in Welsh, and the kids chatting amongst themselves in Welsh. >(The experience in North America has been that minority languages have >survived longest in areas that attract few newcomers.) The interesting thing about Welsh is that there are two main strongholds of the language. Firstly, the remote rural areas, as one might expect; but secondly, the affluent urban areas (especially in Cariff), which are generally populated by incomers who want to make themselves part of the community, to differntiate themselves from England, and who see the language as the obvious way of doing so. So, the situation of Welsh is very interesting, because it's a rare case of a minority language which has a *higher* status than the majority language in much of the country. I don't think it will be a revival to rival Hebrew's (though that obviously was in very special circumstances), but I do think that its prospects are good. PS: That radio speech in 1962 was called "Tynged yr iaith" (Death of the language), and was given by Saunders Lewis. The only link I can find to it is below, but it's on the website of the pressure group Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society), who are somewhat strident in their Welshness, so the speech is given in the original Welsh only! http://www.cymdeithas.com/gwybodaeth/tynged/tyi_c05_2.htm -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On Tue 04 Apr 2000 07:27:44a, Stephen Ferguson wrote: <snip> >The point is that based on my limited >statistical sampling, I would be inclined to believe that 100% of >Welsh people between the ages of 20 and 26 speak Welsh. :-) If you made that 11 to 15, you wouldn't be so far off.... -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Obviously F1 2000 is available through legitimate means already > as I see plenty of views about it from the "moral guardians" of > RAS (or the "RAS Veterans" as they like to be known) who have > let it be known that they condemn the use of Warez. > > Because it is usual for them to let everyone else know that they > know something we don't, but feel they look clever if they don't > tell us the full story behind it or where to find it. They > won't tell us where we can also legitimatly purchase F1 2000.

I guess I'm doing the world a favor when I say: eastore.ea.com, for one... it's currently their #5 best seller! Don't ask me how well it plays, though, as there is no demo (IDIOTS) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.