GPL FF settings for Guillemot

I've experimented a fair bit, but what settings can anyone recommend in core.ini for the Guillemot FF wheel? Thanks, Iain

The settings are here: http://home.maine.rr.com/deroy/howto.htm Slot "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HHRz4.632$[email hidden]... > I've experimented a fair bit, but what settings can anyone recommend in > core.ini for the Guillemot FF wheel? > Thanks, > Iain > >

You know, I tried Slot's FF settings on my Guillemot FF wheel for N3 and GPL, and it seemed with the damper completely off that there were no longer any FF effects. Am I doing something wrong? James Larson >Thanks, useful info there! James Larson Omaha, Nebraska, USA

Thanks, useful info there! Iain GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:arUz4.1484$[email hidden]...

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> The settings are here: > http://home.maine.rr.com/deroy/howto.htm > > Slot > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:HHRz4.632$[email hidden]... > > I've experimented a fair bit, but what settings can anyone recommend in > > core.ini for the Guillemot FF wheel? > > Thanks, > > Iain > > > > > >

Thanks, useful info there! Iain

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> The settings are here: > http://home.maine.rr.com/deroy/howto.htm > Slot > > I've experimented a fair bit, but what settings can anyone recommend in > > core.ini for the Guillemot FF wheel? > > Thanks, > > Iain

why dont you have a section on N3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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> The settings are here: > http://home.maine.rr.com/deroy/howto.htm > Slot > > I've experimented a fair bit, but what settings can anyone recommend in > > core.ini for the Guillemot FF wheel? > > Thanks, > > Iain

Strange, I don't have that problem. What other settings do you use? Iain

I have the problem fixed. I don't exactly know what had gone wrong. What N3.ini or NL.ini settings are you using for FF? James James Larson Omaha, Nebraska, USA

You're right Ronnie. I'll try to get it posted tonight bud. Slot

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> why dont you have a section on N3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > The settings are here: > > http://home.maine.rr.com/deroy/howto.htm > > Slot > > > I've experimented a fair bit, but what settings can anyone recommend

in > > > core.ini for the Guillemot FF wheel? > > > Thanks, > > > Iain

I don't play N3 very much, but my settings are the default 200 for both. I assumed that would be maximum force. Am I right? Iain

> The settings are here: > http://home.maine.rr.com/deroy/howto.htm [ settings with huge values for both damping and max torque ] > > I've experimented a fair bit, but what settings can anyone recommend in > > core.ini for the Guillemot FF wheel? > > Thanks, > > Iain IMHO, GTX_SlotCar's settings only make weak forces very strong without making the strong forces proportionally stronger. This is good for game effects like rumble on the grass but not as good for really getting realistic forces. My interpretation of the GPL FF parameters is as follows: The description of force_feedback_damping seems to be missing the important part, i.e. that you should use it to tell GPL how much inherent damping you have in your force feedback wheel. With a perfect force feedback wheel, sending a 10% force command should generate a force that feels like one tenth of the maximum force. But all FF wheels have internal friction making it necessary to send e.g. a 20% force command to generate a force that feels like one tenth of the maximum. IMO, the damping value controls how much extra force GPL should generate for weak forces to compensate for this. A higher damping value means that you have a wheel with high internal friction that needs a larger compensation for weak forces. All this means that you increase the damping value until the weak forces show up as expected, but _NOT_ to the point where forces that should be weak (e.g. grass rumble) are getting stronger than forces that should be strong (e.g. wheel loading). I find it easier to start with a rather high damping value and then decrease it until the weak forces are realistically weak but still there to feel. (I would not use 'drive into the wall' as a test for strong forces since it is very uncertain if GPL models that case correctly, e.g. forces applied to the wheel at any other place than the contact patch between the wheel and the track.) The description of max_steering_torque is correct. What it means that if you set it to 250, a force computed by the dynamics engine to be 250 whatever unit (foot pounds?) will result in sending a maximum force command to the wheel (i.e. 10000). A force computed to be 125 will result in a 50% force command etc. Any force computed to be stronger than 250 will of course be clipped to a 100% force. If you look at it the other way around and think about what happens with the force computed in a given situation it becomes a bit easier to grasp. Say the force is computed to be 100 foot pounds in real life. If your max torq setting is 200, a 50% force will be generated. If your max torq setting is 400, a 25% force will be generated and so on. Hence the 'increasing this value will reduce the force'. The force_feedback_latency description is also correct, but few seem to understand that prediction of a value microseconds ahead in time isn't going to make much difference :-) Even my value of 25 milliseconds is borderline to being meaningless. Here are my current Ferrari wheel setups: Windows Game Controller: Overall Device Gain: 100% (maximum) Spring Gain: 0% (anything but zero seems to trigger bugs) Damper Gain: 0-10% Default Spring: off Core.ini: [ Joy ] allow_force_feedback = 1 force_feedback_damping = 80 force_feedback_latency = 0.025 max_steering_torque = 200-250 _ Mats Lofkvist

Hi! I agree with you Mats on the effects of his settings. Good to hear that I'm not alone to think like this on GTX_SlotCar's settings. I haven't experimented enough to get myself an opinon on the meaning of the parameters though. Just wanted to share my opinion. For the settings I'm using, check:: home.swipnet.se/roger3 /Roger Mats Lofkvist wrote:

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> IMHO, GTX_SlotCar's settings only make weak forces very strong > without making the strong forces proportionally stronger. This > is good for game effects like rumble on the grass but not as > good for really getting realistic forces. > > My interpretation of the GPL FF parameters is as follows: > > The description of force_feedback_damping seems to be missing > the important part, i.e. that you should use it to tell GPL how > much inherent damping you have in your force feedback wheel. > With a perfect force feedback wheel, sending a 10% force command > should generate a force that feels like one tenth of the > maximum force. But all FF wheels have internal friction > making it necessary to send e.g. a 20% force command to generate > a force that feels like one tenth of the maximum. IMO, the damping > value controls how much extra force GPL should generate for > weak forces to compensate for this. A higher damping value means > that you have a wheel with high internal friction that needs a > larger compensation for weak forces. > > All this means that you increase the damping value until the weak > forces show up as expected, but _NOT_ to the point where forces > that should be weak (e.g. grass rumble) are getting stronger than > forces that should be strong (e.g. wheel loading). I find it > easier to start with a rather high damping value and then decrease > it until the weak forces are realistically weak but still there > to feel. (I would not use 'drive into the wall' as a test for > strong forces since it is very uncertain if GPL models that > case correctly, e.g. forces applied to the wheel at any other > place than the contact patch between the wheel and the track.) > > The description of max_steering_torque is correct. What it means > that if you set it to 250, a force computed by the dynamics engine > to be 250 whatever unit (foot pounds?) will result in sending > a maximum force command to the wheel (i.e. 10000). A force computed > to be 125 will result in a 50% force command etc. Any force > computed to be stronger than 250 will of course be clipped to > a 100% force. If you look at it the other way around and think > about what happens with the force computed in a given situation > it becomes a bit easier to grasp. Say the force is computed to > be 100 foot pounds in real life. If your max torq setting is > 200, a 50% force will be generated. If your max torq setting > is 400, a 25% force will be generated and so on. Hence the > 'increasing this value will reduce the force'. > > The force_feedback_latency description is also correct, but few > seem to understand that prediction of a value microseconds ahead > in time isn't going to make much difference :-) Even my value > of 25 milliseconds is borderline to being meaningless. > > Here are my current Ferrari wheel setups: > > Windows Game Controller: > Overall Device Gain: 100% (maximum) > Spring Gain: 0% (anything but zero seems to trigger bugs) > Damper Gain: 0-10% > Default Spring: off > > Core.ini: > [ Joy ] > allow_force_feedback = 1 > force_feedback_damping = 80 > force_feedback_latency = 0.025 > max_steering_torque = 200-250 > > _ > Mats Lofkvist > [email hidden]

I guess we don't agree on much here. When I tried your settings, the wheel oscillated and was almost undriveable, and I had almost no road feel. Plenty of loading though. "Mats Lofkvist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > IMHO, GTX_SlotCar's settings only make weak forces very strong > without making the strong forces proportionally stronger. This > is good for game effects like rumble on the grass but not as > good for really getting realistic forces. Sounds like magic. But I was trying to make weak forces stronger. It works as far as road feel. It makes it a lot easier to feel when you start losing grip. > My interpretation of the GPL FF parameters is as follows: > > The description of force_feedback_damping seems to be missing > the important part, i.e. that you should use it to tell GPL how > much inherent damping you have in your force feedback wheel. Not according to the GPL text file (1.1 I believe) or any other game I know of. The control panel damping adds viscosity to the wheel. In the game settings, it dampens the spikes (according to the GPL text).

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> With a perfect force feedback wheel, sending a 10% force command > should generate a force that feels like one tenth of the > maximum force. But all FF wheels have internal friction > making it necessary to send e.g. a 20% force command to generate > a force that feels like one tenth of the maximum. IMO, the damping > value controls how much extra force GPL should generate for > weak forces to compensate for this. A higher damping value means > that you have a wheel with high internal friction that needs a > larger compensation for weak forces.

Interesting. I don't see how you came to this, and I certainly wouldn't agree, but it is interesting.

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> > All this means that you increase the damping value until the weak > forces show up as expected, but _NOT_ to the point where forces > that should be weak (e.g. grass rumble) are getting stronger than > forces that should be strong (e.g. wheel loading). I find it > easier to start with a rather high damping value and then decrease > it until the weak forces are realistically weak but still there > to feel. (I would not use 'drive into the wall' as a test for > strong forces since it is very uncertain if GPL models that > case correctly, e.g. forces applied to the wheel at any other > place than the contact patch between the wheel and the track.)

I think it's pretty certain that it does. It even models the chain link fence differently than the armco. > > The description of max_steering_torque is correct. What it means > that if you set it to 250, a force computed by the dynamics engine > to be 250 whatever unit (foot pounds?) will result in sending It's Newton-inches, I believe.

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> a maximum force command to the wheel (i.e. 10000). A force computed > to be 125 will result in a 50% force command etc. Any force > computed to be stronger than 250 will of course be clipped to > a 100% force. If you look at it the other way around and think > about what happens with the force computed in a given situation > it becomes a bit easier to grasp. Say the force is computed to > be 100 foot pounds in real life. If your max torq setting is > 200, a 50% force will be generated. If your max torq setting > is 400, a 25% force will be generated and so on. Hence the > 'increasing this value will reduce the force'.

Well, is it 125 or 250 or what. What is it's reference point? The GPL text file states that if you go too low on Torque, it will tend to clamp the forces. That means compress them so it's hard to distinguish one from another. On damping it states to use a value from 0 to several hundred. Actually, my settings aren't that radical. I like a light wheel, but have always said if you want more loading to use 300 for torque and 600 for damping, for example. This torque figure is certainly within the bounds of the common GPL theory and settings, and the damping of 600 is certainly between 0 and several hundred as described in the GPL text. The values that I personally use have less wheel loading, which I've already said I prefer, and I can feel the traction better because of it. Also, I still believe that whatever setting you use that you're happy with, is the right setting for you.

"GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> writes: [snip] > > > > The description of max_steering_torque is correct. What it means > > that if you set it to 250, a force computed by the dynamics engine > > to be 250 whatever unit (foot pounds?) will result in sending > > It's Newton-inches, I believe. Ok

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> > > a maximum force command to the wheel (i.e. 10000). A force computed > > to be 125 will result in a 50% force command etc. Any force > > computed to be stronger than 250 will of course be clipped to > > a 100% force. If you look at it the other way around and think > > about what happens with the force computed in a given situation > > it becomes a bit easier to grasp. Say the force is computed to > > be 100 foot pounds in real life. If your max torq setting is > > 200, a 50% force will be generated. If your max torq setting > > is 400, a 25% force will be generated and so on. Hence the > > 'increasing this value will reduce the force'. > > Well, is it 125 or 250 or what. What is it's reference point? > > The GPL text file states that if you go too low on Torque, it will tend to > clamp the forces. That means compress them so it's hard to distinguish one > from another.

No, it only means that forces computed to be _larger_ than what translates to a 100% force command sent to the wheel will also result in a 100% force command being sent. Maybe 'clip' is a better word than 'clamp'. E.g: force commands sent to the wheel as a function of the computed force and the settings. The damping=0 columns I'm quite sure about, the non zero damping values (with question marks) are my unconfirmed theory. computed torq=100 torq=200 torq=200 torq=200 force damp=0 damp=0 damp=50 damp=100 0 0% 0% 0% ? 0% ? 50 50% 25% 40% ??? 50% ??? 100 100% 50% 60% ??? 67% ??? 150 100% 75% 80% ??? 83% ??? 200 100% 100% 100% ? 100% ? 250 100% 100% 100% ? 100% ? 300 100% 100% 100% ? 100% ?

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> On damping it states to use a value from 0 to several hundred. > Actually, my settings aren't that radical. I like a light wheel, but have > always said if you want more loading to use 300 for torque and 600 for > damping, for example. This torque figure is certainly within the bounds of > the common GPL theory and settings, and the damping of 600 is certainly > between 0 and several hundred as described in the GPL text. The values that > I personally use have less wheel loading, which I've already said I prefer, > and I can feel the traction better because of it. Also, I still believe that > whatever setting you use that you're happy with, is the right setting for > you.

Of course. Much of what I have written is my opinions only, but regarding your theory about the damping and torque settings being backwards I do believe you are wrong :-) _ Mats Lofkvist [email hidden]