Re: Help: notchy new LWFF

I've had mine about a month now and it's taken some bashing in RC2K, SCGT and Le Mans 24hr. Still as smooth as a babies bottom. Andi. Antony Bowers <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just > *had* to know what GPL is like with FF! > > I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close > to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the > wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a > "notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel > is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections > when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no > FF game is running. > > I don't think the problem is bearings, I think it is something to > do with the motor. From the feel, I can easily imagine magnets moving > past coils, like turning a generator. This is probably nonsense though. > > So, is this unit defective, should I return it? > > Or is everyone's LWFF like this, so I should live with it? > > Or is there a fix? Or will it improve with use? > > Grateful for any advice, > > Anton > > -- > Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK. > http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

I've had two LWFF wheels now. The second was sent complete, no charge, from LT, after my pedals stopped working. It is the newer version that comes with SCGT, while my other is an older version. My first wheel was made in Malaysia. It was quite smooth initially, and remained that way. The second was made in China, and is quite notchy like you describe, and it squeaks horribly. I've taken it apart, and there is no blatantly obvious difference between them. There is a cap in line with the motor lead on the China one, that is not on the Malaysia version. Both motors appear to be the same Johnson Controls unit. I've taken the mechanics of my Malaysia wheel, and mated it to the electronics of the China one, and have basically my old wheel working again. I have heard running in the motor for several hours outside the wheel makes them smoother. I haven't tried this. The China wheel is quite difficult to drive with due to the cogging effect. Not too helpful I know. I suspect all the newer wheels are like this. Kevin Caldwell Calgary, Canada Antony Bowers wrote:

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> > I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just > *had* to know what GPL is like with FF! > > I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close > to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the > wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a > "notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel > is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections > when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no > FF game is running. >

I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just *had* to know what GPL is like with FF! I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a "notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no FF game is running. I don't think the problem is bearings, I think it is something to do with the motor. From the feel, I can easily imagine magnets moving past coils, like turning a generator. This is probably nonsense though. So, is this unit defective, should I return it? Or is everyone's LWFF like this, so I should live with it? Or is there a fix? Or will it improve with use? Grateful for any advice, Anton -- Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK. http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

That's interesting Kevin, I've had my LWFF since November '98 (Made in Taiwan) and it's as smooth today as it was the day I bought it. I was thinking of buying another to have as a spare while trying the ball bearing conversion on my current wheel. Maybe I should look for a used older wheel to use for the conversion. -- don [|]-(_)-[|] > I've had two LWFF wheels now. The second was sent complete, no charge, > from LT, after my pedals stopped working. It is the newer version that > comes with SCGT, while my other is an older version. > My first wheel was made in Malaysia. It was quite smooth initially, and > remained that way. The second was made in China, and is quite notchy > like you describe, and it squeaks horribly. I've taken it apart, and > there is no blatantly obvious difference between them. There is a cap in > line with the motor lead on the China one, that is not on the Malaysia > version. Both motors appear to be the same Johnson Controls unit. > I've taken the mechanics of my Malaysia wheel, and mated it to the > electronics of the China one, and have basically my old wheel working > again. > I have heard running in the motor for several hours outside the wheel > makes them smoother. I haven't tried this. The China wheel is quite > difficult to drive with due to the cogging effect. Not too helpful I > know. I suspect all the newer wheels are like this. > Kevin Caldwell > Calgary, Canada > > I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just > > *had* to know what GPL is like with FF! > > I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close > > to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the > > wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a > > "notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel > > is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections > > when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no > > FF game is running.

Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell). It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings: Damping = 4000 Torque = 1800 Let me know what happens. Slot Antony Bowers <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > I don't think the problem is bearings, I think it is something to > do with the motor. From the feel, I can easily imagine magnets moving > past coils, like turning a generator. This is probably nonsense though. > > Anton > > -- > Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK. > http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

The capacitor on the motor smoothes the starts and helps the motor last longer. Running a motor without a load helps to seat the brushes, but I can't see that it would do any good here, especially since the motor will run in both directions. It's possible that the motor could look the same, but have stronger magnets or more poles on the armature, which would give it a different feel. You can get more power out of a motor by scoring the commutator, but again, I don't see that it would do much on a FF wheel. Slot Kevin Caldwell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I've had two LWFF wheels now. The second was sent complete, no charge, > from LT, after my pedals stopped working. It is the newer version that > comes with SCGT, while my other is an older version. > > My first wheel was made in Malaysia. It was quite smooth initially, and > remained that way. The second was made in China, and is quite notchy > like you describe, and it squeaks horribly. I've taken it apart, and > there is no blatantly obvious difference between them. There is a cap in > line with the motor lead on the China one, that is not on the Malaysia > version. Both motors appear to be the same Johnson Controls unit. > > I've taken the mechanics of my Malaysia wheel, and mated it to the > electronics of the China one, and have basically my old wheel working > again. > > I have heard running in the motor for several hours outside the wheel > makes them smoother. I haven't tried this. The China wheel is quite > difficult to drive with due to the cogging effect. Not too helpful I > know. I suspect all the newer wheels are like this. > > Kevin Caldwell > Calgary, Canada > > Antony Bowers wrote: > > > > I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just > > *had* to know what GPL is like with FF! > > > > I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close > > to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the > > wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a > > "notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel > > is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections > > when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no > > FF game is running. > >

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> Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the > motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell). > It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings: > Damping = 4000 > Torque = 1800 > Let me know what happens.

Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is impossible for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty replacement. Other responses in this thread suggest that there do exist China-made LWFFs that are smooth. Jens Schumi's page (http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/LogiCorner.htm) speculates that the motor shaft is bent on the notchy Chinese units. If the replacement is also notchy, I will consider something else. Do people like the Act Labs for GPL? I've heard that low resolution steering is a problem. I don't understand the core.ini settings above because the figures seem outside the normal range for these values. Does setting Damping to 4000 (Papy's default is 40) turn maximum damping on all the time? Surely setting torque to 1800 (there is a big difference between 250 and 330) will make all steering torque effects too small to be felt? Is there an rationale for these strange values, or are they just empirical? Anton -- Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK. http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

Yes, people do like the Act Labs Force RS for GPL. They also like the Guillemot Ferrari wheel. The resolution in the Force RS is actually quite good. The wheel has over 270 turning, lock to lock, so it may take some getting used to if you're using a wheel like the Logi with 180. But that extra range also makes it easier to track down the straights. The settings I gave have a solid theory behind them which has had substantial coverage on here. I hope to post it on my site when time permits. But in a nutshell, think of the possible range as 0 to 10,000. Now figure using half that range to allow for clipping. Lastly, reverse names for the settings. In other words, call core.ini's damping 'torque' and call it's torque 'damping'. If you were to leave the steering_torque as you usually have it, about 250, and increase the damping to 300, you should feel less FF effects according to conventional wisdom, right? Well, try it and you'll find you get more FF. I believe that if you try the settings I gave, damping=4000 and torque=1800 to 2000, you'll like the feel. Give it a try, it's free ;) Slot > > Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the > > motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell). > > It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings: > > Damping = 4000 > > Torque = 1800 > > Let me know what happens. > Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is impossible > for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty replacement. > Other responses in this thread suggest that there do exist China-made LWFFs that > are smooth. Jens Schumi's page (http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/LogiCorner.htm)

GTX_SlotCar wrote: > ... If you were to leave the steering_torque as you > usually have it, about 250, and increase the damping to 300, you should feel > less FF effects according to conventional wisdom, right? Well, try it and > you'll find you get more FF. I believe that if you try the settings I gave, > damping=4000 and torque=1800 to 2000, you'll like the feel. > Give it a try, it's free ;) Thanks Slot, I will try it as soon as the replacement Logi arrives. How should I set the control panel sliders? Currently: FF effects=150%, Spring=150%, Damping=0%. So far, I've found that FF makes it much more difficult to catch a slide. When the back end starts to slip and I feed in opposite lock, the wheel seems to force an overcorrection, the car slams back the other way, the wheel follows very powerfully and the oscillations just get wilder and wilder with no hope of recovery. Do your settings make any difference to this effect? Anton -- Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK. http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

Use the more sloppy one for the conversion. My old Taiwan one had much better bushings than the China one. Jens On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:57:38 -0800, "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote: >That's interesting Kevin, I've had my LWFF since November '98 (Made in >Taiwan) and it's as smooth today as it was the day I bought it. I was >thinking of buying another to have as a spare while trying the ball bearing >conversion on my current wheel. Maybe I should look for a used older wheel >to use for the conversion. --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

In my new wheel the motor spindle was bent horribly. If your wheel has the same problem, you should have recognized a notchy feeling (when switched off) right out of the box. If this is the problem, return the wheel. It's almost impossible to straighten the spindle. Other thing could be some overlapped cables inside. To find out, you have to remove the cover (up to you to risk your warranty). About feeling the magnets: Since the motor makes alot of spins even on small wheel-turns, I don't think you feel the magnets (at least without ball bearings inside). Again, it could be a bent spindle (one notch per motor-turn). Hope this helps Jens On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:44:56 GMT, Antony Bowers <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just >*had* to know what GPL is like with FF! > >I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close >to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the >wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a >"notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel >is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections >when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no >FF game is running. > >I don't think the problem is bearings, I think it is something to >do with the motor. From the feel, I can easily imagine magnets moving >past coils, like turning a generator. This is probably nonsense though. > >So, is this unit defective, should I return it? > >Or is everyone's LWFF like this, so I should live with it? > >Or is there a fix? Or will it improve with use? > >Grateful for any advice, > > Anton

--------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

How was the quality of the malaysian one? Bushings and so on. Jens BTW I didn't know that the Logi was assembled in Malaysia too? On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:08:35 -0700, Kevin Caldwell <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip> >My first wheel was made in Malaysia. It was quite smooth initially, and >remained that way. The second was made in China, and is quite notchy >like you describe, and it squeaks horribly. I've taken it apart, and<snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

The ActLab is told to be notchy right out of the box due to the belt-drive. In general the cable drive should be the smoothest solution. I put my wheel back together after the latest BB conversion and found a very fine notchy feeling, which really comes from the motor magnets. Funny, in my old Taiwan wheel I don't remember this. I'm quite sure you cannot feel this on unmodified wheels, since all the sticky bushings override anything (but the bent spindle). Jens On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:20:17 GMT, Antony Bowers <[email hidden]> wrote: >Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it isimpossible >for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warrantyreplacement. <snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

It could be that you don't feel the armature/magnet pull much on the LW. With the stronger motors in the Act Labs and even the Ferrari wheel you definately do feel them as a slight notchy feel which some have previously mistaken for the belt. The Act Labs motor is a little stronger than the Ferrari motor, but the notchy feeling isn't greater because it uses a 7 pole armature as opposed the 5 pole in the Ferrari. The Act has a certain amount of built in resistence because of the strong motor, despite the fact that it uses bearings on the shaft. Slot "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > About feeling the magnets: > Since the motor makes alot of spins even on small wheel-turns, I don'tthink you > feel the magnets (at least without ball bearings inside). Again, it couldbe a

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> bent spindle (one notch per motor-turn). > > Hope this helps > > Jens > > > On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:44:56 GMT, Antony Bowers <[email hidden]>

wrote:

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> > > > >I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just > >*had* to know what GPL is like with FF! > > > >I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close > >to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the > >wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a > >"notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel > >is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections > >when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no > >FF game is running. > > > >I don't think the problem is bearings, I think it is something to > >do with the motor. From the feel, I can easily imagine magnets moving > >past coils, like turning a generator. This is probably nonsense though. > > > >So, is this unit defective, should I return it? > > > >Or is everyone's LWFF like this, so I should live with it? > > > >Or is there a fix? Or will it improve with use? > > > >Grateful for any advice, > > > > Anton > > --------------------------------------------- > [email hidden] > Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > > Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious

stuff concerning: > Radio controlled airplanes > Racing simulation, esp. GPL > Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

Oops! It was made in Taiwan, not Malaysia. My mistake... must have been thinking about the Malaysian GP or something! Anyway, it seems quite good mechanically. There is some play in the wheel due to bushing slop, but it is very smooth, and has been for the six months I've had it. Kevin "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > How was the quality of the malaysian one? > Bushings and so on. > > Jens > > BTW I didn't know that the Logi was assembled in Malaysia too?

> How should I set the control panel sliders? > Currently: FF effects=150%, Spring=150%, Damping=0%. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FF effects 150%, spring 0% and damping 0% ------------------------------------------------------------------- > So far, I've found that FF makes it much more difficult to catch a slide. > When the back end starts to slip and I feed in opposite lock, the wheel > seems to force an overcorrection, the car slams back the other way, thewheel > follows very powerfully and the oscillations just get wilder and wilderwith > no hope of recovery. > > Do your settings make any difference to this effect? > > Anton---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Yes, they'll make a difference. Probably a large difference. Slot

OK. There are 2 notchy feelings in the Ferrari and Act Labs wheels. The one from the belt feels like a zipper. Very fine notches. Liken it to dragging a piece of cardboard across a fine toothed hacksaw blade. The faster you turn the wheel, the more it disappears. This is not disconcerting at all. The other notchy feeling, the one everyone is talking about, is caused by the armature poles crossing the magnets. It's not a sharp notchy feel, it's more like a rolling or pulling feeling. The lower you have the overall force set, the less you feel it. So, turn Overall Device Gain down to 53% or so on the Act wheel and it'll probably feel like a LWFF. I don't know if there is a cure for this type of notchy feel, short of using a 15 pole armature or a weaker motor. Once you're used to it you instinctively count the notches (as reference) as you set up high speed turns, so it's got its good and bad points. Remember, you still turn between the notches. They don't limit resolution. Both the Ferrari and Force RS have more powerful motors than previous wheels, and both have belts. Because they were new, everyone assumed the belts were causing the notchy feeling, but what they were actually feeling was the motor. Yes, the stiffness goes out of the Force RS after about a month (it takes that long). Also remember that the Force RS already uses bearings on the steering shaft. Slot JS <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The ActLab is told to be notchy right out of the box due to thebelt-drive. > In general the cable drive should be the smoothest solution. > I put my wheel back together after the latest BB conversion and found avery > fine notchy feeling, which really comes from the motor magnets. Funny, inmy old > Taiwan wheel I don't remember this. > I'm quite sure you cannot feel this on unmodified wheels, since all thesticky > bushings override anything (but the bent spindle). > > Jens > > > On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:20:17 GMT, Antony Bowers <[email hidden]>wrote:

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> > >Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is > impossible > >for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty > replacement. > <snip> > --------------------------------------------- > [email hidden] > Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > > JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ > Racing simulation, esp. GPL > Logitech Wingman FF optimization > Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor > Radio controlled airplanes

Why do you set the spring to 0%? I tried both settings, 0% and 150%, and I'm not sure what the difference is. Andre On Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:48:14 -0500, "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >> How should I set the control panel sliders? >> Currently: FF effects=150%, Spring=150%, Damping=0%. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >FF effects 150%, spring 0% and damping 0% >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> So far, I've found that FF makes it much more difficult to catch a slide. >> When the back end starts to slip and I feed in opposite lock, the wheel >> seems to force an overcorrection, the car slams back the other way, the >wheel >> follows very powerfully and the oscillations just get wilder and wilder >with >> no hope of recovery. >> >> Do your settings make any difference to this effect? >> >> Anton >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- > > >Yes, they'll make a difference. Probably a large difference. > >Slot > > > >

GPL uses Constant Force (Vector Forces in i-Force) to program the feedback instead of Spring Forces. Constant Force has to be updated frequently, every frame (or even better, every millisecond), and is much harder to do, especially smoothly, than Spring Force programming. But I think GPL pulls it off very nicely. It's probably why you can get such subtle traction feedback from the wheels. Because it's so much harder to do right, most games use Spring Force and I fear that most of the new sims will also. In this respect, at least, GPL may stay as a top sim for quite some time. Theoretically, GPL ignores your spring settings. But due to crossovers and general harmonics, putting a value in Spring Gain could throw out some unexpected signals, spikes, glitches or whatever. If you don't notice a difference, then it doesn't matter what you set it at. I use 0% just to be safe. Slot

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> Why do you set the spring to 0%? I tried both settings, 0% and 150%, > and I'm not sure what the difference is. > Andre > >> How should I set the control panel sliders? > >> Currently: FF effects=150%, Spring=150%, Damping=0%. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FF effects 150%, spring 0% and damping 0% > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> So far, I've found that FF makes it much more difficult to catch a

slide.

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> >> When the back end starts to slip and I feed in opposite lock, the wheel > >> seems to force an overcorrection, the car slams back the other way, the > >wheel > >> follows very powerfully and the oscillations just get wilder and wilder > >with > >> no hope of recovery. > >> Do your settings make any difference to this effect? > >> Anton >---------------------------------------------------------------------------

- > >---- > >Yes, they'll make a difference. Probably a large difference. > >Slot

Thanks for the explanation Slot, I'll also keep it at zero just to be sure then! Andre

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>GPL uses Constant Force (Vector Forces in i-Force) to program the feedback >instead of Spring Forces. Constant Force has to be updated frequently, every >frame (or even better, every millisecond), and is much harder to do, >especially smoothly, than Spring Force programming. But I think GPL pulls it >off very nicely. It's probably why you can get such subtle traction feedback >from the wheels. Because it's so much harder to do right, most games use >Spring Force and I fear that most of the new sims will also. In this >respect, at least, GPL may stay as a top sim for quite some time. >Theoretically, GPL ignores your spring settings. But due to crossovers and >general harmonics, putting a value in Spring Gain could throw out some >unexpected signals, spikes, glitches or whatever. If you don't notice a >difference, then it doesn't matter what you set it at. I use 0% just to be >safe. >Slot >> Why do you set the spring to 0%? I tried both settings, 0% and 150%, >> and I'm not sure what the difference is. >> Andre >> >> How should I set the control panel sliders? >> >> Currently: FF effects=150%, Spring=150%, Damping=0%. >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >FF effects 150%, spring 0% and damping 0% >> >------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> So far, I've found that FF makes it much more difficult to catch a >slide. >> >> When the back end starts to slip and I feed in opposite lock, the wheel >> >> seems to force an overcorrection, the car slams back the other way, the >> >wheel >> >> follows very powerfully and the oscillations just get wilder and wilder >> >with >> >> no hope of recovery. >> >> Do your settings make any difference to this effect? >> >> Anton >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- >> >---- >> >Yes, they'll make a difference. Probably a large difference. >> >Slot

Hi There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to my old taiwan made wheel aswell. Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy to fix, but not acceptable Sudesh Antony Bowers wrote:

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> GTX_SlotCar wrote: > > Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the > > motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell). > > It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings: > > > > Damping = 4000 > > Torque = 1800 > > > > Let me know what happens. > > Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is impossible > for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty replacement. > Other responses in this thread suggest that there do exist China-made LWFFs that > are smooth. Jens Schumi's page (http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/LogiCorner.htm) > speculates that the motor shaft is bent on the notchy Chinese units. > > If the replacement is also notchy, I will consider something else. Do people like > the Act Labs for GPL? I've heard that low resolution steering is a problem. > > I don't understand the core.ini settings above because the figures seem outside the > normal range for these values. Does setting Damping to 4000 (Papy's default is 40) > turn maximum damping on all the time? Surely setting torque to 1800 (there is > a big difference between 250 and 330) will make all steering torque effects too small > to be felt? > > Is there an rationale for these strange values, or are they just empirical? > > Anton > > -- > Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK. > http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

Can you explain how to fix the bent shaft since many of us only have the china wheel.Also,can you tell if the shaft is bent without opening up the unit? On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:29:54 +0100, amos-opus <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Hi >There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to my old taiwan >made wheel aswell. >Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy to fix, but >not acceptable > >Sudesh > >Antony Bowers wrote: > >> GTX_SlotCar wrote: >> > Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the >> > motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell). >> > It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings: >> > >> > Damping = 4000 >> > Torque = 1800 >> > >> > Let me know what happens. >> >> Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is impossible >> for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty replacement. >> Other responses in this thread suggest that there do exist China-made LWFFs that >> are smooth. Jens Schumi's page (http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/LogiCorner.htm) >> speculates that the motor shaft is bent on the notchy Chinese units. >> >> If the replacement is also notchy, I will consider something else. Do people like >> the Act Labs for GPL? I've heard that low resolution steering is a problem. >> >> I don't understand the core.ini settings above because the figures seem outside the >> normal range for these values. Does setting Damping to 4000 (Papy's default is 40) >> turn maximum damping on all the time? Surely setting torque to 1800 (there is >> a big difference between 250 and 330) will make all steering torque effects too small >> to be felt? >> >> Is there an rationale for these strange values, or are they just empirical? >> >> Anton >> >> -- >> Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK. >> http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/ >

Unluckily not always easy to fix. I made a new cylinder and grinded/turned it round by using the motor itself. Was not perfect right away, but after decreasing the tension of the cable (decreased diametre of cylinder) the wheel is now smooth. I mailed Logitech about that s..t. Got the answer: "We look into that and ..." blablabla. Jens On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:29:54 +0100, amos-opus <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hi >There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to myold taiwan >made wheel aswell. >Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy tofix, but >not acceptable > >Sudesh > --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

Skeeter, If there is a clear (coarse) notchy feeling on the wheel when NO POWER, then the shaft is bent. The magnets you can only feel when the power is on and you have ball bearings inside Jens On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:57:56 GMT, [email hidden] (Skeeter) wrote:

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> Can you explain how to fix the bent shaft since many of us only have >the china wheel.Also,can you tell if the shaft is bent without opening >up the unit? > >On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:29:54 +0100, amos-opus ><[email hidden]> wrote: >

--------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

Unluckily not always easy to fix. I made a new cylinder and grinded/turned it round by using the motor itself. Was not perfect right away, but after decreasing the tension of the cable (decreased diametre of cylinder) the wheel is now smooth. I mailed Logitech about that s..t. Got the answer: "We look into that and ..." blablabla. Jens >Hi >There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to my old taiwan >made wheel aswell. >Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy to fix, but >not acceptable >Sudesh --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:50:14 GMT, [email hidden] (JS) wrote:

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>Unluckily not always easy to fix. >I made a new cylinder and grinded/turned it round by using the motor itself. Was >not perfect right away, but after decreasing the tension of the cable (decreased >diametre of cylinder) the wheel is now smooth. > >I mailed Logitech about that s..t. Got the answer: "We look into that and ..." >blablabla.

JS I have looked into your site and have some questions.First off is the ball bearing conversion as hard as it looks:)I would love to do that as I think it would improve the subtle forces better and I probably could lower my force settings which are at 150.0 in the core.ini. Second question is about your brake pedal.You state that a squash ball doesnt fit in the LOGI pedals but I have read that many people are using it.I have looked all over for the doorstop thing but no luck in my small town.

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> >Jens > > >On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:29:54 +0100, amos-opus <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Hi >>There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to my >old taiwan >>made wheel aswell. >>Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy to >fix, but >>not acceptable >> >>Sudesh >> > >--------------------------------------------- >[email hidden] >Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > >JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ >Racing simulation, esp. GPL >Logitech Wingman FF optimization >Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor >Radio controlled airplanes

Hi Skeeter, nothing for the double-lefthanders. But with a little practical talent it's possible to DIY. First time assembling will take quite loooooong, since there are typical mistakes you make (again and again and again). I read somewhere that with BBs you can feel any crack in the Monza track ;-). Don't know about this, since I race GPL without FF (shame on me). What I know that the wheel gets really sensitive. I can even feel the motor-magnets when turning the wheel (and it's not the bent motor-shaft any more). Also when I release the wheel from side lock, it rocks about 8 times before stopping - try this at home. I must admit, that I did a little further optimization of the cable tension to achieve this :-) AFAIK the squashball trick only works with the CH-pedals. I have no idea how to place a half ball in the Logi-pedals. Don't search for the doorstop, if you cannot get one easily, just look for anything made of solid (silicone-) rubber. Harder rubber isn't so good. Hope this helps Jens On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:22:06 GMT, [email hidden] (Skeeter) wrote:

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> JS I have looked into your site and have some questions.First off >is the ball bearing conversion as hard as it looks:)I would love to do >that as I think it would improve the subtle forces better and I >probably could lower my force settings which are at 150.0 in the >core.ini. > > Second question is about your brake pedal.You state that a squash >ball doesnt fit in the LOGI pedals but I have read that many people >are using it.I have looked all over for the doorstop thing but no luck >in my small town.

--------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

No FFB?Is there a reason for this?I find that I can finally "feel" the car shifting its weight.I turned it off the other day and put the center spring back on and I lost the "feel" again.My wheel rotates back and fourth about two times when I let it go.I am actually really happy with this since when I first got it it only rocked once and so seems to be breaking in.I have so much play in my wheel though that at 1/4in its a really annoying problem.Nice tight metal bearings will fix this right up. Gonna look for some silicone rubber for my brake pedal. On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:35:54 GMT, [email hidden] (JS) wrote:

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>Hi Skeeter, >nothing for the double-lefthanders. >But with a little practical talent it's possible to DIY. >First time assembling will take quite loooooong, since there are typical >mistakes you make (again and again and again). > >I read somewhere that with BBs you can feel any crack in the Monza track ;-). >Don't know about this, since I race GPL without FF (shame on me). >What I know that the wheel gets really sensitive. I can even feel the >motor-magnets when turning the wheel (and it's not the bent motor-shaft any >more). Also when I release the wheel from side lock, it rocks about 8 times >before stopping - try this at home. I must admit, that I did a little further >optimization of the cable tension to achieve this :-) > >AFAIK the squashball trick only works with the CH-pedals. I have no idea how to >place a half ball in the Logi-pedals. >Don't search for the doorstop, if you cannot get one easily, just look for >anything made of solid (silicone-) rubber. Harder rubber isn't so good. > >Hope this helps > >Jens > >On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:22:06 GMT, [email hidden] (Skeeter) wrote: > >> JS I have looked into your site and have some questions.First off >>is the ball bearing conversion as hard as it looks:)I would love to do >>that as I think it would improve the subtle forces better and I >>probably could lower my force settings which are at 150.0 in the >>core.ini. >> >> Second question is about your brake pedal.You state that a squash >>ball doesnt fit in the LOGI pedals but I have read that many people >>are using it.I have looked all over for the doorstop thing but no luck >>in my small town. > > >--------------------------------------------- >[email hidden] >Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > >JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ >Racing simulation, esp. GPL >Logitech Wingman FF optimization >Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor >Radio controlled airplanes

Skeeter, Although I love the FF in GPL, I haven't found a setup yet, which doesn't disturb my driving. But, my time will come :-) On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:32:19 GMT, [email hidden] (Skeeter) wrote:

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> No FFB?Is there a reason for this?I find that I can finally "feel" >the car shifting its weight.I turned it off the other day and put the >center spring back on and I lost the "feel" again.My wheel rotates >back and fourth about two times when I let it go.I am actually really >happy with this since when I first got it it only rocked once and so >seems to be breaking in.I have so much play in my wheel though that at >1/4in its a really annoying problem.Nice tight metal bearings will fix >this right up. > > Gonna look for some silicone rubber for my brake pedal. >

--------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes