Re: Force Feedback

Go for the MSFF simply because of the pedal set.The Logitech pedals are pretty guff & there's not much between the wheels. Should be able to pick up a MSFF for around �90 nowadays.

I found the logitech made my wrists ache after a while so I stayed with the Microsoft wheel. Yes there was a significant FPS hit with the wheel with GPL of about 4 FPS which was remedied with DX7a. steven dawkins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. > > At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a > new FF wheel. > > No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. > > The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. > (Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and > I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) > > Some supplementary points: > I don't have a USB connection > I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) > I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 > > Ok - I'm listening.... > > > -- > Steven Dawkins > Research Associate >

I have tried both wheels and I have to say the Logitech Wingman Formula Force is much better than the microsoft wheel. The LWFF wheel feels less "notchy" in comparison to the MSFF, and once you set it up right, it gives out far more different kinds of feedback than the MSFF. (I have tried them only in GPL) All the subtle effects are there, grip level etc etc, as well as the heavy effects like hitting the barriers... NOW FOR THE CLINCHER>>> CPU LOAD!! I have a pentium P2 233 and the Logitech knocks 0.5fps from GPL at most. The MSFF knocks off 10-15fps!!!!!! This is because of the totally inefficient way that the MSFF is programmed.. here are the figures from Alison Hines website. MSFF 4,000,000 cpu cycles per FF instruction LWFF 30,000 cpu cycles per FF instruction!!!!!! That isn't a typo above, those are the correct figures.. the MSFF uses over 100x more cpu power than the LWFF!! And imho, the LWFF gives for better feedback when set up correctly... the newest drivers have opened up 33% more power from the LWFF due to a bug in older drivers too!! steven dawkins wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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>I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. > >At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a >new FF wheel. > >No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. > >The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. >(Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and >I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) > >Some supplementary points: >I don't have a USB connection >I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) >I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 > >Ok - I'm listening.... > > >-- >Steven Dawkins >Research Associate >

I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a new FF wheel. No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. (Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) Some supplementary points: I don't have a USB connection I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 Ok - I'm listening.... -- Steven Dawkins Research Associate

I personally went with the Act Labs. But if your not willing to do the shipping, they have some reviews about it and the other wheels your considering here. http://www.actlab.com/race1_reviews.htm After Act Labs, most reviews went with the Logitech. Most that I talk to are happy with it. Hate to say it but you can save about $50 ordering even that wheel over the net here http://www.provantage.com/scripts/go.dll/-s/ffjoystk Jim D steven dawkins wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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>I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. > >At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a >new FF wheel. > >No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. > >The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. >(Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and >I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) > >Some supplementary points: >I don't have a USB connection >I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) >I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 > >Ok - I'm listening.... > > >-- >Steven Dawkins >Research Associate >

Yes, and in the latest series of Logi. wheels (red wheels), the brake spring *is* stiffer--and in any case, it's a simple job to open up the pedal bases and stiffen it even more. --DK "Les Marton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5eOv4.38746$[email hidden]...

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> Steven, > > The answer is simple in your case - go with the Logitech Wingman Extreme. > Why? > > - Consumes much less CPU than the Microsoft (ok for your 350 Pentium) > - Supports USB and Serial (so it will work for you) > - Logitech is an all round better wheel with better FF than the Microsoft. > > The only cons with the Logitech are it's pedals but I find them not that

bad

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> once you get used to them. > > Good luck with your choice. > > Les. > > > > > steven dawkins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. > > > > At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a > > new FF wheel. > > > > No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. > > > > The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. > > (Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and > > I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) > > > > Some supplementary points: > > I don't have a USB connection > > I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) > > I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 > > > > Ok - I'm listening.... > > > > > > -- > > Steven Dawkins > > Research Associate > > > >

The Logi has a more subtle FF effect then the MS Wheel. The MS pedals are FAR superior (they're the right size for starters). Unless you have size three feet, i wouldn't bother with the Logi Wheel. I was unfortunate enough to use one a week ago at a friends and it sucked. Les Marton wrote in message <5eOv4.38746$[email hidden]>...

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>Steven, > >The answer is simple in your case - go with the Logitech Wingman Extreme. >Why? > >- Consumes much less CPU than the Microsoft (ok for your 350 Pentium) >- Supports USB and Serial (so it will work for you) >- Logitech is an all round better wheel with better FF than the Microsoft. > >The only cons with the Logitech are it's pedals but I find them not that

bad

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>once you get used to them. > >Good luck with your choice. > >Les. > > > > >steven dawkins <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. >> >> At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a >> new FF wheel. >> >> No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. >> >> The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. >> (Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and >> I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) >> >> Some supplementary points: >> I don't have a USB connection >> I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) >> I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 >> >> Ok - I'm listening.... >> >> >> -- >> Steven Dawkins >> Research Associate >> > >

Sorry to say so but if you are going to spend 100 quids and you don't want to get the best just because you don't want to shop on the net you are quite silly ? Why buy something not as good as you could get gfor your money ? Anyway it's your choice but i got my A-L on the net, everything went great, and now I can enjoy the best wheel around....

Ok... its nearly five o'clock here. This is how the different wheels faired in this group: Logitech : 3 votes Microsoft : 2 votes Guillemot : 1 vote Spoilt Paper : 2 votes Hmm... I wonder... Thanks to all those who helped. Steve steven dawkins wrote:

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> I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. > > At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a > new FF wheel. > > No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. > > The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. > (Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and > I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) > > Some supplementary points: > I don't have a USB connection > I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) > I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 > > Ok - I'm listening.... > > -- > Steven Dawkins > Research Associate

-- Steven Dawkins - Research Assistant - University of York. Email Disclaimer ---------------------- The information in this email is confidential. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorised. The views expressed in this email are those of the author, and should not be attributed to the University of York, BAE SYSTEMS or any other party.

But Guillemot is not local. I'd have cast my vote for Logitech for something you buy locally, but have to agree with another gent above, that the Act Labs is a better choice, as is the Guillemot Ferrari. I'm not knocking the MS or Logi, but these other 2 are a more complete package where the wheel and pedals are both good. Slot steven dawkins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Ok... its nearly five o'clock here. This is how the different wheels > faired in this group: > > Logitech : 3 votes > Microsoft : 2 votes > Guillemot : 1 vote > Spoilt Paper : 2 votes > > Hmm... I wonder... > > Thanks to all those who helped. > > Steve > > steven dawkins wrote: > > > I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. > > > > At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a > > new FF wheel. > > > > No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. > > > > The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. > > (Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and > > I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) > > > > Some supplementary points: > > I don't have a USB connection > > I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) > > I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 > > > > Ok - I'm listening.... > > > > -- > > Steven Dawkins > > Research Associate > > -- > Steven Dawkins - Research Assistant - University of York. > > Email Disclaimer > ---------------------- > The information in this email is confidential. > It is intended solely for the addressee. > Access to this email by anyone else is > unauthorised. > > The views expressed in this email are those of > the author, and should not be attributed to the > University of York, BAE SYSTEMS or any > other party. > >

SpeedFreek wrote in message <89p2hd$1hp$[email hidden]>... some snipped

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> >I have a pentium P2 233 and the Logitech knocks 0.5fps from >GPL at most. >The MSFF knocks off 10-15fps!!!!!! > >This is because of the totally inefficient way that the MSFF is >programmed.. here are the figures from Alison Hines website. >

more snipped Freek, I'm not disputing your review of the Logitech, or the fact that it's more processor-friendly than the MSFF wheel, but a hit of 10 to 15 frames per second for the MSFF? C'mon! I have a PII 233 as well (sigh), but my experience with the MSFF is nothing REMOTELY close to what you're reporting. Regards, Kurt

And the result was?? Andi, a bit late but my vote would have gone for the Logi, you do get used to the pedals. "Tony Graham" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I found the logitech made my wrists ache after a while so I stayed withthe > Microsoft wheel. Yes there was a significant FPS hit with the wheel withGPL

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> of about 4 FPS which was remedied with DX7a. > > steven dawkins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. > > > > At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a > > new FF wheel. > > > > No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. > > > > The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. > > (Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and > > I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) > > > > Some supplementary points: > > I don't have a USB connection > > I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) > > I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 > > > > Ok - I'm listening.... > > > > > > -- > > Steven Dawkins > > Research Associate > > > >

All I can tell you is that my fps in GPL is a constant 35-36 with the LWFF but it dropped as low as 21-22 fps with the MSFF.. not all the time.. but at certain times it seemed to get a lot of slowdown... maybe my configuration is different from yours. Kurt Steinbock wrote in message ...

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> >SpeedFreek wrote in message <89p2hd$1hp$[email hidden]>... >some snipped >> >>I have a pentium P2 233 and the Logitech knocks 0.5fps from >>GPL at most. >>The MSFF knocks off 10-15fps!!!!!! >> >>This is because of the totally inefficient way that the MSFF is >>programmed.. here are the figures from Alison Hines website. >> >more snipped > >Freek, I'm not disputing your review of the Logitech, or the fact that it's >more processor-friendly than the MSFF wheel, but a hit of 10 to 15 frames >per second for the MSFF? C'mon! > >I have a PII 233 as well (sigh), but my experience with the MSFF is nothing >REMOTELY close to what you're reporting. > >Regards, > >Kurt > >

On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:52:15 -0000, "SpeedFreek" <[email hidden]> wrote: >All I can tell you is that my fps in GPL is a constant 35-36 with the LWFF >but it dropped as low as 21-22 fps with the MSFF.. not all the time.. but >at certain times it seemed to get a lot of slowdown... maybe my >configuration >is different from yours. Supposedly DirectX 7.0a corrected or diminished that problem from what I have been able to ascertain from reading various FAQs and sim websites, but I have not confirmed it personally. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Steven, The answer is simple in your case - go with the Logitech Wingman Extreme. Why? - Consumes much less CPU than the Microsoft (ok for your 350 Pentium) - Supports USB and Serial (so it will work for you) - Logitech is an all round better wheel with better FF than the Microsoft. The only cons with the Logitech are it's pedals but I find them not that bad once you get used to them. Good luck with your choice. Les. steven dawkins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I've asked this question before and never got a straight answer. > > At about 5pm today, I'm going to spend about �100 ($160?) on a > new FF wheel. > > No ifs or buts ... I want straight advice. > > The choice will be the Microsoft one or the Logitech one. > (Forget the ACT one - its not in the shops around here and > I'm not prepared to order over the Internet) > > Some supplementary points: > I don't have a USB connection > I'm concerned about Processor loading (I have a P2-350) > I run CMR, RC2000 and (when bored) NFS 3 > > Ok - I'm listening.... > > > -- > Steven Dawkins > Research Associate >

I havent tried DX7.0a yet, coz I worry about installing directX when everything is working fine.. scarey!!! But under DX6.1 I have no problems with the LWFF. Would DX7.0a give me even better performance in GPL with my LWFF... coz if Im gonna get FPS back, I may consider installing it!!

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>>All I can tell you is that my fps in GPL is a constant 35-36 with the LWFF >>but it dropped as low as 21-22 fps with the MSFF.. not all the time.. but >>at certain times it seemed to get a lot of slowdown... maybe my >>configuration >>is different from yours. >Supposedly DirectX 7.0a corrected or diminished that problem from what >I have been able to ascertain from reading various FAQs and sim >websites, but I have not confirmed it personally. >Regards, >Brett C. Cammack >That's Racing! Motorsports >Pompano Beach, FL

I've only heard of it helping with the MS FF wheel, but who knows for certain? It does sound like it ought to have some modest incremental improvement. I went from 6.1 to 7.0a with no casualties, but it's a biiiggg download file. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

The thing is, it's a matter of personal preference. I went for the MS wheel after trying that, the Logi and a Saitek Wheel. guess this is all irrelevant now though as the lad's already gone and bought a wheel, but I wonder if he was gonna test drive either of them? Andi Cole wrote in message <89qu8a$2pb$[email hidden]>... >And the result was?? > >Andi, a bit late but my vote would have gone for the Logi, you do get used >to the pedals. <snipped>

Andi Cole wrote: > And the result was?? The final results of the voting for the FF wheels was: MS SW : 4 Log. Wingman : 5 Guillemot : 2 Spoilt: 2 If your interested, I have ended up with the Logitech, and apart from being a bit squeaky, it's great. I don't notice the squeaks during the game - but when my wife had a go on it I was surprised how much noise it made - but thats no problem. :-) I did have trouble with serial port connections though, so I upgraded from WIn95 to 98, and used the USB ports instead. It was a tough call between the Guillemot and the Logitech - but (you won't believe this!) the Guillemot pedals didn't suit me at all they have an odd "double hinge" type mechanism which looks fragile and would annoy me. The Microsoft one was quickly discounted mainly because it has recently been re-launched here (UK) with USB and now costs �30 more than a Logitech - which, better pedals or not, is getting a bit steep. I'd say the Force feedback has but new life into many of the games, RC 2000 seems make much more sense with the feedback, but the effects are more subtle in CMR. (But I've only done one stage with FF so far). Anyway, thanks for your help. -- Steven Dawkins - Research Assistant - University of York.

I looked hard and went for the Guillemot Force feedback Race Wheel (the one with the Ferrari). Works well on Colin McRae, Nascar 3 and Rally Championship (100% force setting leaves you with a handfull....). The wheel has great specs and can use serial and (later for you) USB. I use it on a Celeron 500 with 64Mb and Voodoo2. Marc

The Microsoft USB is about �75+VAT - Tech direct or Dabs. Where can you get the Logitech for �45+VAT > The Microsoft one was quickly discounted mainly because it has recently > been re-launched here (UK) with USB and now costs �30 more than a > Logitech - which, better pedals or not, is getting a bit steep. >