Re: Driving ethics. Please give me your opinion

You found the key word, Kenny. He didn't say he could do it "safely." Frank is well known for his dangerous passes. Sometimes they work (if the guy he's passing cares about finishing the race and gets out of the way) and sometimes they don't (if the guy he's passing doesn't care about finishing any more than he does.) Frankie, he asked a simple etiquette question. No need to start shoveling, just give him an answer to his question. Mike Kenny L. wrote in message ... >So, you can enter turn 3 (at Talladega) at 205 mph, with 4 tires on theapron, and >safely pull of a pass? >I can do it with two tires but not four.

Steve, you've acted as judge, jury and executioner with your statement "I moved up slightly......". You tried a move which effectively placed you at a point lower than the racing line and you suffered the consequences. Steve Sarlls wrote:

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> I was in a race at Dega. There were 4 cars in the lead draft with 2 > laps left. We were on the back straight and I had gotten a run on the > leader who had been running a very low line the whole race. I got > under him but was partially on the apron. I was completely beside > him. Door to Door. Front bumpers even. I moved up slightly so that > I would have all 4 tires on the track when we entered T3. He didn't > move and I spun onto the apron and wrecked into the outside wall. As > I spun low he had plenty of opportunity to recover and continue which > he did. I have no problem with folks running a low line. My question > is: > Should he have moved up to at least give me the bottom lane or should > I have backed off and fell in behind him and tried around the outside? > > Thank You > Steve-S

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In article <[email hidden]>, Steve Sarlls <[email hidden]> writes:

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> I was in a race at Dega. There were 4 cars in the lead draft with 2 >laps left. We were on the back straight and I had gotten a run on the >leader who had been running a very low line the whole race. I got >under him but was partially on the apron. I was completely beside >him. Door to Door. Front bumpers even. I moved up slightly so that >I would have all 4 tires on the track when we entered T3. He didn't >move and I spun onto the apron and wrecked into the outside wall. As >I spun low he had plenty of opportunity to recover and continue which >he did. I have no problem with folks running a low line. My question >is: >Should he have moved up to at least give me the bottom lane or should >I have backed off and fell in behind him and tried around the outside? > > Thank You > Steve-S

Sorry you wrecked, but I'd say you should have backed off. If the other guy has the racing line, he's entitled to it. It's the passing driver's responsibility to complete the pass safely. As long as he didn't cut down on you, he didn't do anything wrong, IMHO. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <P8L44.1103$[email hidden]>, "Chag Rogers" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>My biggest pet peive is guys driving that stupid low line, sheesh it's ok to >get passed. This is why I never run dega pickup(pickup in general) because >you have all these knuckleheads driving like that. In my opinion it's his >fault, because to pass him at all you have to take crazy chances. On the >last lap or two perhaps it's ok to block, but the whole race cmon people. > >ChadRogers >chadliz

Why are they wrong? Should they just move out of your way so you can pass? That's not racing. If your better and/or faster, you should still be able to get by safely... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I was in a race at Dega. There were 4 cars in the lead draft with 2 laps left. We were on the back straight and I had gotten a run on the leader who had been running a very low line the whole race. I got under him but was partially on the apron. I was completely beside him. Door to Door. Front bumpers even. I moved up slightly so that I would have all 4 tires on the track when we entered T3. He didn't move and I spun onto the apron and wrecked into the outside wall. As I spun low he had plenty of opportunity to recover and continue which he did. I have no problem with folks running a low line. My question is: Should he have moved up to at least give me the bottom lane or should I have backed off and fell in behind him and tried around the outside? Thank You Steve-S

IMHO you should've backed off. He held his line and as the leader that was well within his rights. You knew you'd have problems staying on the apron and tried to force him to change his line. That said, it also depends on the guy in the car next to you. If it had been me I probably would've moved up to give you some room but that's the way I drive <G> -- Michael Horton http://www.bus.nait.ab.ca/staff/mikeh/gpl/ Home of the GPL F2/F3 Hotlaps

I think it depends on what you mean by "partially on the apron". If you are running a steady low line that happens to nip the apron now and then, I think you are fine. On the other hand, I think a good rule of thumb is that an unsafe line never has the right of way. Driving with half the car on the apron and half on the track would be pretty damn unsafe! -- Aaron Gillum RDOS Director of Operations http://www.racing-design.com/rdos Now Accepting Applications! [email hidden] -- "You could have been paid to read this message. www.getpaid4.com/?bargler " Steve Sarlls <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I was in a race at Dega. There were 4 cars in the lead draft with 2 > laps left. We were on the back straight and I had gotten a run on the > leader who had been running a very low line the whole race. I got > under him but was partially on the apron. I was completely beside > him. Door to Door. Front bumpers even. I moved up slightly so that > I would have all 4 tires on the track when we entered T3. He didn't > move and I spun onto the apron and wrecked into the outside wall. As > I spun low he had plenty of opportunity to recover and continue which > he did. I have no problem with folks running a low line. My question > is: > Should he have moved up to at least give me the bottom lane or should > I have backed off and fell in behind him and tried around the outside? > > Thank You > Steve-S >

My biggest pet peive is guys driving that stupid low line, sheesh it's ok to get passed. This is why I never run dega pickup(pickup in general) because you have all these knuckleheads driving like that. In my opinion it's his fault, because to pass him at all you have to take crazy chances. On the last lap or two perhaps it's ok to block, but the whole race cmon people. ChadRogers chadliz Aaron Gillum <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zlK44.5228$[email hidden]... > I think it depends on what you mean by "partially on the apron". > > If you are running a steady low line that happens to nip the apron now and > then, I think you are fine. > > On the other hand, I think a good rule of thumb is that an unsafe linenever

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> has the right of way. Driving with half the car on the apron and half on > the track would be pretty damn unsafe! > > > -- > Aaron Gillum > RDOS Director of Operations > http://www.racing-design.com/rdos Now Accepting Applications! > [email hidden] > -- > "You could have been paid to read this message. www.getpaid4.com/?bargler

"

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> > Steve Sarlls <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I was in a race at Dega. There were 4 cars in the lead draft with 2 > > laps left. We were on the back straight and I had gotten a run on the > > leader who had been running a very low line the whole race. I got > > under him but was partially on the apron. I was completely beside > > him. Door to Door. Front bumpers even. I moved up slightly so that > > I would have all 4 tires on the track when we entered T3. He didn't > > move and I spun onto the apron and wrecked into the outside wall. As > > I spun low he had plenty of opportunity to recover and continue which > > he did. I have no problem with folks running a low line. My question > > is: > > Should he have moved up to at least give me the bottom lane or should > > I have backed off and fell in behind him and tried around the outside? > > > > Thank You > > Steve-S > > > >

IMHO, It is next to impossible to enter turns at Talladega on the apron and get away with it. You may flirt with the apron, but not more than that. Also, the leader has no obligation to give you room and position. It may have been the wise thing to do, since YOU put both in a risky situation. If I was the lead car, and someone got under me on the apron, I would move up to avoid the iminent crash. I am one of those who will drive the bottom line when there are few laps left and the win is at stake, cause at Talladega, ya gotta protect the bottom and make the other guy go on the high side if you want to keep first place. -- Kenny L. #14 Generic Chevy PRC Member Wall Scrapers Racing Team "Steve Sarlls" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I was in a race at Dega. There were 4 cars in the lead draft with 2 > laps left. We were on the back straight and I had gotten a run on the > leader who had been running a very low line the whole race. I got > under him but was partially on the apron. I was completely beside > him. Door to Door. Front bumpers even. I moved up slightly so that > I would have all 4 tires on the track when we entered T3. He didn't > move and I spun onto the apron and wrecked into the outside wall. As > I spun low he had plenty of opportunity to recover and continue which > he did. I have no problem with folks running a low line. My question > is: > Should he have moved up to at least give me the bottom lane or should > I have backed off and fell in behind him and tried around the outside? > > Thank You > Steve-S >

>IMHO you should've backed off. He held his line and as the leader that was >well within his rights. You knew you'd have problems staying on the apron >and tried to force him to change his line. That said, it also depends on the >guy in the car next to you. If it had been me I probably would've moved up >to give you some room but that's the way I drive <G> He wasn't Rusty Wallace and you aren't Jeff Gordon, that's for sure. -Tim

Chag Rogers <[email hidden]> wrote > My biggest pet peive is guys driving that stupid low line, sheesh it's okto > get passed. This is why I never run dega pickup(pickup in general)because > you have all these knuckleheads driving like that. In my opinion it's his > fault, because to pass him at all you have to take crazy chances. On the > last lap or two perhaps it's ok to block, but the whole race cmon people. When this happens, give them a nudge or two. They will learn fast to not do it. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Kenny L. <[email hidden]> wrote > IMHO, It is next to impossible to enter turns at Talladega on the apronand get away > with it. You may flirt with the apron, but not more than that It's actually very, very possible. Many of us can do it easily, go down the apron all the way (you know.. the car will tilt in a bizarre way when this happens). You just need to have a good setup for that. Of course you will not really gain an advantage if the car above has a good group draft, since you will be slower down there. Still, the art of "apron passing" is something that many of us are known to do, I for one. Just learn how to tweak your setup correctly to do it. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:02:03 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Kenny L. <[email hidden]> wrote >> IMHO, It is next to impossible to enter turns at Talladega on the apron >and get away >> with it. You may flirt with the apron, but not more than that > >It's actually very, very possible. Many of us can do it easily, go down the >apron all the way (you know.. the car will tilt in a bizarre way when this >happens). You just need to have a good setup for that. Of course you will >not really gain an advantage if the car above has a good group draft, since >you will be slower down there. Still, the art of "apron passing" is >something that many of us are known to do, I for one. > >Just learn how to tweak your setup correctly to do it.

WOW! You're awesome, man. You're higly skilled in the art of "apron passing." Fantastic. Seriously though, gimme a break....the art of "apron passing?" LOL!!!!!!

So, you can enter turn 3 (at Talladega) at 205 mph, with 4 tires on the apron, and safely pull of a pass? I can do it with two tires but not four. -- Kenny L. #14 Generic Chevy PRC Member Wall Scrapers Racing Team "Intimidator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:02:03 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Kenny L. <[email hidden]> wrote > >> IMHO, It is next to impossible to enter turns at Talladega on the apron > >and get away > >> with it. You may flirt with the apron, but not more than that > > > >It's actually very, very possible. Many of us can do it easily, go down the > >apron all the way (you know.. the car will tilt in a bizarre way when this > >happens). You just need to have a good setup for that. Of course you will > >not really gain an advantage if the car above has a good group draft, since > >you will be slower down there. Still, the art of "apron passing" is > >something that many of us are known to do, I for one. > > > >Just learn how to tweak your setup correctly to do it.

Michael P. Mabrey <[email hidden]> wrote > You found the key word, Kenny. He didn't say he could do it "safely." Well of course Mike :) > Frank is well known for his dangerous passes. Me, really ? ;-) It's just the way we drive. Our God is named Schumacher, and by applying his F1 techniques on a oval circuit it does some pretty bizarre things. Tell that to Pekka, he loves dangerous passes also :) Btw that WINvite Phoenix last Friday.. none of the 7cautions were my fault. Amazing eh? :) > Sometimes they work (if the > guy he's passing cares about finishing the race and gets out of the way)and > sometimes they don't (if the guy he's passing doesn't care about finishing > any more than he does.) You remember the Dega race with the 4car lead draft where I on purpose stayed at the tail of the group ? I won that race hmm.. but it was quite boring waiting for the last lap to make a move. > Frankie, he asked a simple etiquette question. No need to startshoveling, > just give him an answer to his question. It's r.a.s. Mike, I wouldn't had answered that way elsewhere, but here the rules are a little different. It was a quite funny post that I had to reply, considering yesterday we had a conversation on Won.net about apron passing and how it's different in N3 compared to the NROS. I simply said that it's possible when you tweak the setup that way. It's difficult because you will be slower if lower, so the person your passing has a good drafting group, it's useless. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <P8L44.1103$[email hidden]>, "Chag Rogers" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>My biggest pet peive is guys driving that stupid low line, sheesh it's ok to >>get passed. This is why I never run dega pickup(pickup in general) because >>you have all these knuckleheads driving like that. In my opinion it's his >>fault, because to pass him at all you have to take crazy chances. On the >>last lap or two perhaps it's ok to block, but the whole race cmon people. >> >>ChadRogers >>chadliz > >Why are they wrong? Should they just move out of your way so you can pass? >That's not racing. If your better and/or faster, you should still be able to >get by safely... > >Eldred

I encountered one of these low line racers the other day. I followed him for about 3 laps and made my move coming off turn 4 at dega. I got under him and my nose was at the front of his door when we entered the tri-oval. He then forced his way down on me and we collided, leaving him in first and me 3 seconds back! Then he had the nerve to say that I was in his line! I don't mind people taking the low line but when someone does get under you, you have to give it up. Vintook

Well, that would clearly be his fault. He lost the preferred grove and tried to take it back. The original poster was complaining about people who stay in the low line and won't move out of his way. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

No, Actually I was complaining about people who lose the low line and wreck you to keep you from winning. http://austin.rr.com/dweeb1 See for yourself. Who held thier line and who did not. Steve-S

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>(Vintook) writes: >>I encountered one of these low line racers the other day. I followed him for >>about 3 laps and made my move coming off turn 4 at dega. I got under him and >>my nose was at the front of his door when we entered the tri-oval. He then >>forced his way down on me and we collided, leaving him in first and me 3 >>seconds back! Then he had the nerve to say that I was in his line! I don't >>mind people taking the low line but when someone does get under you, you have >>to give it up. >>Vintook >Well, that would clearly be his fault. He lost the preferred grove and tried >to take it back. The original poster was complaining about people who stay in >the low line and won't move out of his way. >Eldred

Let it go, man. It's a GAME!!

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> No, Actually I was complaining about people who lose the low line > and wreck you to keep you from winning. > http://austin.rr.com/dweeb1 > See for yourself. Who held thier line and who did not. > Steve-S > >(Vintook) writes: > >>I encountered one of these low line racers the other day. I followed him

for > >>about 3 laps and made my move coming off turn 4 at dega. I got under him and > >>my nose was at the front of his door when we entered the tri-oval. He then > >>forced his way down on me and we collided, leaving him in first and me 3 > >>seconds back! Then he had the nerve to say that I was in his line! I don't > >>mind people taking the low line but when someone does get under you, you have > >>to give it up. > >>Vintook > >Well, that would clearly be his fault. He lost the preferred grove and tried > >to take it back. The original poster was complaining about people who stay in > >the low line and won't move out of his way. > >Eldred

I know. This one just got under my skin. A very clean race and I had a serious shot at the win. I don't win many so I value the ones I do win. This one was stolen from me IMHO. Steve-S PS. That's Gamelation. :-)

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>Let it go, man. It's a GAME!! >> No, Actually I was complaining about people who lose the low line >> and wreck you to keep you from winning. >> http://austin.rr.com/dweeb1 >> See for yourself. Who held thier line and who did not. >> Steve-S >> >(Vintook) writes: >> >>I encountered one of these low line racers the other day. I followed him >for >> >>about 3 laps and made my move coming off turn 4 at dega. I got under him >and >> >>my nose was at the front of his door when we entered the tri-oval. He >then >> >>forced his way down on me and we collided, leaving him in first and me 3 >> >>seconds back! Then he had the nerve to say that I was in his line! I >don't >> >>mind people taking the low line but when someone does get under you, you >have >> >>to give it up. >> >>Vintook >> >Well, that would clearly be his fault. He lost the preferred grove and >tried >> >to take it back. The original poster was complaining about people who >stay in >> >the low line and won't move out of his way. >> >Eldred