WARNING!

Posting of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Track Pack is a serious violation. Downloading it is also illegal. We are in the process of rectifying the situation and we will take all action possible to protect our rights. We suggest that you cease all activity immediately. Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group

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>Subject: WARNING! >Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:40:16 -0400 >Posting of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Track Pack is a serious >violation. Downloading it is also illegal. We are in the process of >rectifying the situation and we will take all action possible to protect >our rights. We suggest that you cease all activity immediately. >Ed Martin >Papyrus Design Group

DOWNLOADING is illegal?!? Even for those who don't KNOW it? Hey, it happens... FTR, I bought mine...<g> I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? Eldred Pickett

>DOWNLOADING is illegal?!? Even for those who don't KNOW it? >Hey, it happens... >FTR, I bought mine...<g> Ignorance of the law is not a viable defense. (Just watch Perry Mason! :-) Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

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> Posting of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Track Pack is a serious > violation. Downloading it is also illegal. We are in the process of > rectifying the situation and we will take all action possible to protect > our rights. We suggest that you cease all activity immediately. > Ed Martin > Papyrus Design Group

Yeah right and it's also illegal to pull that tag off of your mattress too, but I have never seen anyone get in trouble over it. You guys should be thankful for the hacker element, it's probably sold a ton of games for you. How many people do you think would have bought NASCAR RACING(R) if they would have never been able to get a #3 or a Bill Elliott car. The homegrown stuff is what keeps this game fresh and you are trying to squelch it...must be the new Sierra gods. KB

I HATE STUPID PEOPLE! Rick G. and the folks at Pappy put up with a lot of ***and stupid stuff, and still are there when you need them. The ideal came to me that if no one bought the software then Pappy could not afford to pay them to be there. WOW WHAT A CONCEPT! Its called making a profit and staying in business. Strange how STUPID When the first patch came out for Indy I was DYING to get it. Then the next day there it was down loaded with my news groups. Did I use Indy.zip? No. I deleted it and waited for the UPS guy. WAKE UP AMERICA it's only money, 25 bucks. If you can afford a machine to run Nascar on you can afford to BUY!!!!!! the software. So Please! stop trying to***the folks that make it possiable for us to have cool stuff like Nascar. .............Ken P.S. I still think Bill Gates has too much money! IVGA INL 2779 GO.............. #3 TURN LEFT, GO FAST!

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>>Subject: WARNING! >>Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:40:16 -0400 >>Posting of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Track Pack is a serious >>violation. Downloading it is also illegal. We are in the process of >>rectifying the situation and we will take all action possible to protect >>our rights. We suggest that you cease all activity immediately. >>Ed Martin >>Papyrus Design Group >DOWNLOADING is illegal?!? Even for those who don't KNOW it? >Hey, it happens...

Anybody that's been using a computer longer than two or three days knows it's not legal to download copyrighted software. Not only is ignorance of the law not a viable defense, the act of feining ignorance simply makes you look stupid. /=================================================\ | John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker) | | http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/index.html | \=================================================/

: Yeah right and it's also illegal to pull that tag off of your mattress : too, but I have never seen anyone get in trouble over it. You guys : should be thankful for the hacker element, it's probably sold a ton : of games for you. How many people do you think would have bought : NASCAR RACING(R) if they would have never been able to get a #3 or : a Bill Elliott car. The homegrown stuff is what keeps this game : fresh and you are trying to squelch it...must be the new Sierra gods. Point #1: It is not illegal for the "owner" of the mattress to remove the tag. It is illegal for the tag to be removed before the mattress is purchased. Point #2: Papyrus is not talking about the program which converts the ICR1 Indy track to ICR2/NASCAR. What they are talking about is the illegal posting of the actual track and its data. Papyrus has been rather supportive of the efforts put into "hacking" the tracks about. They have a legal and m***right to protect their copyrighted material. If they do not take action to protect their copyright/trademarks, they may actually lose those rights. The way the laws work here in the U.S of A. requires that they vigilantly protect their rights or they lose them. If they lose these rights, they can't make money on their products. If they can't make money on their products, we WON'T be seeing any more great racing Sims. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Blah, blah. blah. Shut up! You fail to realize that downloading software does not make one look stupid, more, it makes them look more intelligant. Downloading software allows one to preview the program to prevent people from buying games like "Expect: No Mercy" that have no demo. I realize that most people do not download programs to preview but that they do so to get free software. My theory is this: Why not download a program if you don't plan on buying it nor do you currently have the cash to pay for it? I really don't think that type of activity hurts the software developers. Keep in mind, I -never- pirate software, I always buy it.

Keith, he's not talking about downloading the track converters. He's talking about downloading the TRACK itself, which was posted, quite illegally, to a binaries group this past week. Downloading the track converter simply gives you the ability to alter a LEGAL copy of the track. And I'm sure Papyrus doesn't have a problem with this, since it has allowed them to sell no telling how many copies of the Indy Track Pack. Pat ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pat Campbell The Chevy Monte Carlo 6,94,88,16,4,25 Lexington, AL NASCAR's Wide Load War Eagle!!! Home Page: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pscampbe/pscindex.html NASCAR Stats: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pscampbe/nascstat.html -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

with: ^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm not touching this one with a ten meter cattle prod. _________________________________________ Tony Johns IWCCCARS Project Coordinator http://www.xmission.com/~iwcc/project.htm

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> : Yeah right and it's also illegal to pull that tag off of your mattress > : too, but I have never seen anyone get in trouble over it. You guys > : should be thankful for the hacker element, it's probably sold a ton > : of games for you. How many people do you think would have bought > : NASCAR RACING(R) if they would have never been able to get a #3 or > : a Bill Elliott car. The homegrown stuff is what keeps this game > : fresh and you are trying to squelch it...must be the new Sierra gods. > Point #1: It is not illegal for the "owner" of the mattress to remove > the tag. It is illegal for the tag to be removed before the mattress is > purchased. > Point #2: Papyrus is not talking about the program which converts the > ICR1 Indy track to ICR2/NASCAR. What they are talking about is the > illegal posting of the actual track and its data. Papyrus has been > rather supportive of the efforts put into "hacking" the tracks about. > They have a legal and m***right to protect their copyrighted material. > If they do not take action to protect their copyright/trademarks, they > may actually lose those rights. The way the laws work here in the U.S > of A. requires that they vigilantly protect their rights or they lose > them. If they lose these rights, they can't make money on their > products. If they can't make money on their products, we WON'T be > seeing any more great racing Sims.

Please accept my apologies. I DID think it was the conversion program for Indy>>NASCAR, but I didn't read it close enough. I would never support piracy of any kind. For what it's worth, I realized what it was AFTER I had posted my reply. Again, my apologies to Papyrus and anyone else I may have offended. KB

: with: : > Blah, blah. blah. Shut up! You fail to realize that downloading : >software does not make one look stupid, more, it makes them look more : >intelligant. : ^^^^^^^^^^^ : I'm not touching this one with a ten meter cattle prod. : Tony Johns make that 20 :) ...Chuck

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>Subject: Re: WARNING! >Date: 12 Apr 1996 20:05:25 -0400 >>DOWNLOADING is illegal?!? Even for those who don't KNOW it? >>Hey, it happens... >>FTR, I bought mine...<g> >Ignorance of the law is not a viable defense. (Just watch Perry Mason! :-) >Rick Genter >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II >Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

<g> I was just ASKIN'... But damn, technically, that means we have to know/memorize EVERY law that's currently in force? Some of those are obsolete, and date back past 1850!<G> Eldred p.s. I *know* it's off the subject, but it just struck me as funny... I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? Eldred Pickett

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>Subject: Re: WARNING! >Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 16:05:16 GMT >>>Posting of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Track Pack is a serious >>>violation. Downloading it is also illegal. We are in the process of >>>rectifying the situation and we will take all action possible to protect >>>our rights. We suggest that you cease all activity immediately. >>>Ed Martin >>>Papyrus Design Group >>DOWNLOADING is illegal?!? Even for those who don't KNOW it? >>Hey, it happens... >Anybody that's been using a computer longer than two or three days knows it's >not legal to download copyrighted software. Not only is ignorance of the law >not a viable defense, the act of feining ignorance simply makes you look >stupid. >/=================================================\ >| John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker) | >| http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/index.html | >\=================================================/

I *meant* someone who didn't know it was COPYRIGHTED...maybe they thought it was a 'user enhancement', and thus shareware. Don't jump on ME, I already said I BOUGHT the damn thing! Geez...! I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? Eldred Pickett

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>Subject: Re: WARNING! >Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:31:25 GMT >>Anybody that's been using a computer longer than two or three days knows it's >>not legal to download copyrighted software. Not only is ignorance of the law >>not a viable defense, the act of feining ignorance simply makes you look >>stupid. > Blah, blah. blah. Shut up! You fail to realize that downloading >software does not make one look stupid, more, it makes them look more >intelligant. Downloading software allows one to preview the program to >prevent people from buying games like "Expect: No Mercy" that have no >demo. I realize that most people do not download programs to preview >but that they do so to get free software. My theory is this: Why not >download a program if you don't plan on buying it nor do you currently >have the cash to pay for it? I really don't think that type of >activity hurts the software developers. Keep in mind, I -never- pirate >software, I always buy it.

Dosen't matter, John will STILL jump on you for even SUGGESTING it. He did it to me, anyway, and I said I bought the program... I only wish I'd seen a pirate copy of 'Bill Eliott's Nascar Challenge'. I'd have saved my $50. What a piece of crap. I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? Eldred Pickett

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>Subject: Re: WARNING! >Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:28:56 GMT >with: >> Blah, blah. blah. Shut up! You fail to realize that downloading >>software does not make one look stupid, more, it makes them look more >>intelligant. > ^^^^^^^^^^^ >I'm not touching this one with a ten meter cattle prod. >_________________________________________ >Tony Johns >IWCCCARS Project Coordinator >[link lost in import: /~iwcc/project.htm]

You have an EXTRA one? I could use it on some people at work<g>. I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? Eldred Pickett

Hey Rick. How much is the track going for now a days? And what's the number? Steve +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | All the worlds a stage, | ("'-''-/").___..--''"'-._ | | and there's a comedy playing. | '6_ 6 ) '_. ( ).'-.__.') | | May as well enjoy the show. | (_Y_.) ._ ) '._ '. ''-..-' | | | _..'--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Go Dale Earnhardt #3 | Go Rusty Wallace #2 | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Split_S on IRC Air Warriors? Not yet but working on it. :-) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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> > Posting of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Track Pack is a serious > > violation. Downloading it is also illegal. We are in the process of > > rectifying the situation and we will take all action possible to protect > > our rights. We suggest that you cease all activity immediately. > > Ed Martin > > Papyrus Design Group > Yeah right and it's also illegal to pull that tag off of your mattress > too, but I have never seen anyone get in trouble over it.

That's because you BOUGHT the mattress before you ripped the tag off of it you feeb!

(RickGenter) writes:

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>>Subject: Re: WARNING! >>Date: 12 Apr 1996 20:05:25 -0400 >>>DOWNLOADING is illegal?!? Even for those who don't KNOW it? >>>Hey, it happens... >>>FTR, I bought mine...<g> >>Ignorance of the law is not a viable defense. (Just watch Perry

Mason! :-)

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>>Rick Genter >>Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II >>Papyrus Design Group, Inc. ><g> >I was just ASKIN'... >But damn, technically, that means we have to know/memorize EVERY law

that's >currently in force? Some of those are obsolete, and date back past 1850!<G> >Eldred >p.s. I *know* it's off the subject, but it just struck me as funny... >I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? >Eldred Pickett It is your job as a citizen of the country in which you live, to know the laws of that country. If you don't, you are a fool. Mike

writes: I don't know how much they're charging for it. The direct order number is 1-800-836-1829. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line

>> Posting of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Track Pack is a serious >> violation. Downloading it is also illegal. We are in the process of >> rectifying the situation and we will take all action possible to protect

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>> our rights. We suggest that you cease all activity immediately. >> Ed Martin >> Papyrus Design Group >Yeah right and it's also illegal to pull that tag off of your mattress >too, but I have never seen anyone get in trouble over it. You guys >should be thankful for the hacker element, it's probably sold a ton >of games for you. How many people do you think would have bought >NASCAR RACING(R) if they would have never been able to get a #3 or >a Bill Elliott car. The homegrown stuff is what keeps this game >fresh and you are trying to squelch it...must be the new Sierra gods. >KB

HERE!!! HERE!!!

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> >Yeah right and it's also illegal to pull that tag off of your mattress > >too, but I have never seen anyone get in trouble over it. You guys > >should be thankful for the hacker element, it's probably sold a ton > >of games for you. How many people do you think would have bought > >NASCAR RACING(R) if they would have never been able to get a #3 or > >a Bill Elliott car. The homegrown stuff is what keeps this game > >fresh and you are trying to squelch it...must be the new Sierra gods.

Keith & Eric, you both seem to be confused between the "hacker element" and pirating software. Yes, we do realize & appreciate the "hacker element". We're gamers here, too, as you might expect. However, there is a HUGE difference between exchanging user created cars and illegally distributing copyrighted software. I'm sure, if you think about it, you can see the difference. As for the old mattress tag joke, in case you are confused about that as well, it is ILLEGAL for the vendor to pull off the tag, it is perfectly LEGAL for the buyer to pull it off. Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group P.S. Enforcing copyright protection has nothing to do with the "new Sierra gods", except, of course, that now, an even bigger organization can help to protect our rights.

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>>>Ignorance of the law is not a viable defense. (Just watch Perry >Mason! :-) >>>Rick Genter >>>Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II >>>Papyrus Design Group, Inc. >><g> >>I was just ASKIN'... >>But damn, technically, that means we have to know/memorize EVERY law >that's >>currently in force? Some of those are obsolete, and date back past >1850!<G> >>Eldred >>p.s. I *know* it's off the subject, but it just struck me as funny... >>I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? >>Eldred Pickett >It is your job as a citizen of the country in which you live, to know >the laws of that country. If you don't, you are a fool. >Mike

Y'know, you don't have to be a JERK about it. Do YOU, as a citizen, know EVERY ***ING LAW that's on the books? I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? Eldred Pickett

element" and pirating software. here, too, as you might you can see the difference. I respect copy right laws (as I did not download the track when presented it) and Papyrus's right to protect its investment. Im also glad to see Papyrus regonizes and appreciates the hacker element and its contribution to that investment, so prehaps this is now a dead issue. But, point of debate, is a piece of code 'hacked' by another program created by someone else for use with a third program still protected by the original copyright when transfered free of charge between users? Im not sure of the answer and prehaps can be enlightend.

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> >Keith & Eric, you both seem to be confused between the "hacker > element" and pirating software. > >Yes, we do realize & appreciate the "hacker element". We're gamers > here, too, as you might > >expect. > >However, there is a HUGE difference between exchanging user created > cars and illegally > >distributing copyrighted software. I'm sure, if you think about it, > you can see the difference. > >Ed Martin > >Papyrus Design Group > I respect copy right laws (as I did not download the track when > presented it) and Papyrus's right to protect its investment. Im also > glad to see Papyrus regonizes and appreciates the hacker element and > its contribution to that investment, so prehaps this is now a dead > issue. But, point of debate, is a piece of code 'hacked' by another > program created by someone else for use with a third program still > protected by the original copyright when transfered free of charge > between users? Im not sure of the answer and prehaps can be > enlightend.

I'm not sure I follow what you're asking... but.. 1) If you're asking "if after someone hacks a piece of copyrighted code, can it be transmitted 'free'". No! Here's an anology... you go into Windows 95 & "hack" the name to Windows 96. Do you think the copyright still applies? I bet Bill Gates beleieves it does. 2) If you're asking "if I run a copyrighted piece of code through some third party tanslation utility, can it be transmitted 'free'" (e.g. run the Indy Track Pack through the converter that makes it work with NASCAR). No!!! Automated hacking or not, the copyright applies. Period. Feel free to tear off all the mattress tags you want (as long as you don't work at the store), but do not get involved in the transmission of copyrighted software... hacked or not. Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group

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>>> Posting of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Track Pack is a serious >>> violation. Downloading it is also illegal. We are in the process >of >>> rectifying the situation and we will take all action possible to >protect >>> our rights. We suggest that you cease all activity immediately. >>> Ed Martin >>> Papyrus Design Group >>Yeah right and it's also illegal to pull that tag off of your mattress >>too, but I have never seen anyone get in trouble over it. You guys >>should be thankful for the hacker element, it's probably sold a ton >HERE!!! HERE!!!

It's not the conversion that Ed and Papyrus are objecting to. It's the fact that some has the Indianapolis Track Pack available for download. Not the conversion. As long as Papyrus is still selling the Track Pack (and with Gerhard's conversion, it could be a *long* time) they have every right (both legally [which given the current legal system I'm not overly impressed] and morally - ethically if you will) to protect their product from illegal transmission. That's what Ed's post is all about. If they stopped producing and selling the ITP, then it would be a petty argument, but since Sierra bought out Papyrus, the Papyrus division will need all the cash it can get it's hands on to keep it's talent in house, so if you really do want to support Papyrus and keep thier quality level where it is (or improve it) folks need to buy this stuff to keep them going. Otherwise they'll go the way of other Sierra buyouts - down the tube. Mike -- _ ___/ \___ Speed Bump Motorsports... The name says it all. NRL95 #110 Hershey's Kiss Chevrolet Monte Carlo PRO95 #53 Hershey's Kiss Penske PC23/Ilmor D SIMCAR96 #45 Hershey's Kiss Pontiac Grand Prix IVGA #2027 (membership, not the car!)