NASCAR Racing League - cars & sponsorship

There's been a lot of chatter here & via e-mail regarding cars in NRL & sponsorship. Hopefully, this will help to clear things up (although the news might not make everyone happy)... NCR 2, which will be the first "engine" for NRL, will use individual cars/car files as opposed to the mega single car set that exists in NCR 1.x. From this fact, people have been making some incorrect assumptions about NRL. Further complicating the issue is that it's starting to sink in that NRL truely is a fully-sanctioned division of NASCAR, and people are starting to make assumptions about how it will work. 1) Math problems: NCR 2 will have 50 (or so) cars. NRL will have thousands of subscribers (we already do!). So, the math just doesn't work... how can thousands of people reserve cars when there are only 50 to choose from? 2) Legal problems (part 1): There are potential legal/licensing issues involving NRL drivers driving Winston Cup licensed cars. Is it OK for Ed Martin to represent himself in the NRL via the #24 DuPont car? Is it fair to DuPont, Hendricks Motorsports and/or Jeff Gordon? Is it fair to NRL (DuPont isn't paying for the NRL representation of their car)? Given this, we have decided that the best/only course is to steer clear of any licensing problems involving cars from other divisions. 3) Legal problems (part 2): There are HUGE legal issues with users uploading/downloading their own cars. If you've followed the threads up here regarding Daytona, IMS, or any other licensed properties, you have an idea of the issues. Bottom line, licensed properties 1) are valuable; and 2) must be protected. If a licensed property does not take all steps possible to protect the free distribution of their mark, they WILL loose it. It will become part of the public domain. Asprin vs Mickey Mouse... asprin is public domain, Mickey is worth billions. It is virtually (pardon the pun) impossible for us to police licensed cars being uploaded & downloaded if we allowed uploading & downloading of cars, so we can not allow it. [Before you jump all over me on this one, PLEASE think about the value of licenses & sponsorship... as in the paragraph before this one, and the 2 paragraphs following it.] 4) Sponsorship: Even if #2 & #3 didn't exist, NRL is a separate division of NASCAR. Although NCR 2 will mirror the Winston Cup division NRL does not have to & will not (at least in terms of sponsored cars). In other words, NRL will have its own sponsored cars. The sponsors are paying for NRL cars based on exposures... that's where the value lies. So, NRL will have to ensure that these sponsored cars are used/seen. So, what does this all mean? IDENTIFICATION OF DRIVERS People want to be able to have some recognition in the NRL. Further, it's important that people are recognized in the NRL. "Sports is all about personalities"... we know this, and we are going to cultivate it in NRL. But if we have a finite number of total cars, how do we do it? It's a tough problem... The plan is this... When you join the NRL, you will be able to submit a list of preferred cars... let's say a list of 5. When you join a race, the system will do its best to give you your #1 choice. If it's taken, it will go for #2, and so on. Priority/selection will be based on skill level (first) and when you joined this particular race (second). So if racer 1 is a skill level 10, while racer 2 is a skill level 9, and both have the "X" car as their #1 choice, racer 1 would get car "X". If racers 1 & 2 are both skill level 10's, but racer 2 signed up to join the race event before racer 1 did, racer 2 would get their first choice. UPLOAD/DOWNLOAD USER CARS This will not be possible in NRL. Because NRL will have its own sponsored cars, we can not/will not allow those cars to be "over-ridden" with custom user cars. [See #4 above.] Even if we did allow it, it wouldn't worklogistically. Think about the thousands of users in NRL, and some percentage of them all painting/exchanging custom cars. We would have to download these car to each user... or at least download the cars necessary for each race to each user -- that could mean 30+ cars for each race. The download traffic & time would kill all of us! You think AOL is bad with the "Please wait while we download new artwork" stuff? Ouch! NRL SPONSORSHIP OF CARS Sponsorship for all aspects of NRL will remain the exclusive domain of the NRL. Put differently, people/users will NOT be allowed to go out & get their own sponsors for NRL. Yes, I know this is the case in the other 12 NASCAR divisions (teams get their own sponsors), but it will not be the case for NRL... at least in the beginning. There are a whole host of reasons why this is the case... and I'm sure I'll get into all of them in detail later in this thread. The main issues surround value of sponsorship. This is not to say that this will always be the case. We hope that someday, people will be able to get their own sponsors. However, in the begining, it is important to build the division up to a point where there is value in individual car sponsorship. STANDARD CARS (a.k.a. WHO AM I ON YOUR SYSTEM?) With NCR 1.x & the current prototype, depending on what carset each individual user has loaded, each person will see different cars. This is a problem for a couple of reasons. First, if I have the standard NCR 1.x car set loaded, and you have the MULTICAR car set loaded, you will see me in 1 car with 1 number, but I will see myself in another car with another number. Ooooops! That just doesn't work. We have to ensure that everyone is seeing the same cars... just for identification purposes. Second, back to the value of sponsorship issue. If a sponsor is going to pay for a car, a billboard, to host a race and/or series, etc., they have to make sure that the viewers/players/users are all exposed to it. Otherwise, the sponsorship has no value. Sponsorship is all about exposures. So, we have to ensure that everyone is seeing (exposed to) the same thing(s). Let me turn this around... Let's say we do allow you to go out & get your own sponsor for your own car. Let's say that Ed Martin signs GM to sponsor him (if you've ever seen me race, you know what a joke THAT is!). Well, if GM is going to throw any money in my direction, they are going to do it so that other people will see that GM car on the track. Well, if NRL doesn't ensure that everyone is seeing the same cars, that GM sponsorship is valueless. Sure, I might see the GM car on my system, but others might see me in the Ford Credit car. Oooops! SUMMARY 1) Users will have a facility to select their preferred cars, and the system will do its best to put people in the car(s) they choose. 2) Users will not be able to use their own cars in NRL. This is due to sponsorship value & identification. 3) Users will not be able to go out & sign up their own sponsors for NRL... at least initially. Hopefully, this all makes sense... Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

[the concise definition on sponsorship and the NRL] Along the lines of car sets, has there been a resolution to the question of selecting a Chevy/Ford/Pontiac? Also, I take it that the option of running Hoosier tires will be discontinued in version 2? Great work Ed, keep it up, looks like you guys are starting to make a little headway. Oh, by the way, how can we get the NRL pitched by Benny Parsons on RPM2nite? You may want to send him a few cheeseburgers for this. Waiting patiently (yeah right) Matt Myers --------------------------------------------- Expressing individualism is just plain wrong. Crow T. Robot

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> SUMMARY > 1) Users will have a facility to select their preferred cars, and the > system will do its best to put people in the car(s) they choose. > 2) Users will not be able to use their own cars in NRL. This is due > to sponsorship value & identification. > 3) Users will not be able to go out & sign up their own sponsors for > NRL... at least initially. > Hopefully, this all makes sense...

And if this doesn't make sense...and if this is the main focus of why people don't sleep well at night pondering such thoughts..then they need to find a new hobby. Thanks Ed...people should be thankful you are here to even answer such questions, instead of endless and pointless speculation. KenH

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> [the concise definition on sponsorship and the NRL] >Along the lines of car sets, has there been a resolution to the >question of selecting a Chevy/Ford/Pontiac? Also, I take it that the >option of running Hoosier tires will be discontinued in version 2? >Great work Ed, keep it up, looks like you guys are starting to make a >little headway. Oh, by the way, how can we get the NRL pitched by >Benny Parsons on RPM2nite? You may want to send him a few >cheeseburgers for this. >Waiting patiently (yeah right) >Matt Myers >--------------------------------------------- >Expressing individualism is just plain wrong. > Crow T. Robot

As for Ford/Chevy/Pontiac, no I don't have a resolution for you yet. Hoosiers will be gone in NCR 2, just like they are in Winston Cup. I think you might hear a lot about NRL on television once we get closer to launching. NASCAR is behind this 100%, and they really want to make it big. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Totally makes sense Ed. Now for a request. I have no idea how your graphics engine works, but certainly I understand that you are using texture mapping onto polygons. How difficult would it be to alter any particular texture in memory during game play? A GREAT feature would be that the user name appears on the back of the car. Each car has a separate texture for this panel, and my assumption (but I have no idea really) is that that texture resides in memory and *is* alterable on a race by race basis. My natural leap is a piece of code that draws the user name onto this panel, replacing the car default texture. Could this be done? Of course.. this prolly would not make your sponsors happy, but it sure would be cool. BTW- this would also be a great way to put DONUTS on the DOORS after contact! Tim V

This brings up a couple of questions. 1) We will still be able to create our own cars for our own personal use? During head-to-head and IPX races? During single driver races? 2) Does the prospect of "paying" sponsors mean that some of the costs of running the "network" will be offset? Or is NASCAR walking away with all of the money? Anyway, thanks Ed for the detailed information. It all makes sense and should have been logical from the get go. But you gotta understand, we are virtual racers and this means we are DREAMERS!!!! -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Ed, so (initially) I could go out and try to get, say, Microsoft to sponsor my car In NRL???? Too Kewl!!

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>This brings up a couple of questions. >1) We will still be able to create our own cars for our own personal >use? During head-to-head and IPX races? During single driver races? >2) Does the prospect of "paying" sponsors mean that some of the costs of >running the "network" will be offset? Or is NASCAR walking away with >all of the money? >Anyway, thanks Ed for the detailed information. It all makes sense and >should have been logical from the get go. But you gotta understand, we >are virtual racers and this means we are DREAMERS!!!! >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Excellent questions... 1) You will absolutely be able to create & use your own cars in single player, 2 player & 8 player IPX. There will be an enhanced paintkit in the box. We just won't allow non-NRL cars online. 2) You have hit the nail right on the head. The reason we are going after sponsorship is to drive the cost of the service down as low as possible. And, no, NASCAR isn't walking away with anything they don't deserve. Believe me (if nothing else, I'm painfully honest up here) I'm not saying this for suck-up points, but NASCAR is an awesome partner. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Snip Ed, I'm never one to flog a dead horse (more than twice a day), but since this is going to be a NASCAR licensed series, with no prize money at that, I would think that the sponsors would be lining 3 deep up to get their logos on the NRL cars! Free advertising! You might not be able to emulate a black #3 Goodwrench, but I'd bet the companies would probably be willing to create all new cars for you...send all the major sponsors a copy of Paintkit! I realize you already answered to this thread earlier...just food for thought. Neil -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

: 1) You will absolutely be able to create & use your own cars in single : player, 2 player & 8 player IPX. There will be an enhanced paintkit : in the box. We just won't allow non-NRL cars online. Hey Ed, Will the current PCX files be portable to NASCAR 2's Paintkit???? Jeff Foglietta

>Along the lines of car sets, has there been a resolution to the >question of selecting a Chevy/Ford/Pontiac? Also, I take it that the >option of running Hoosier tires will be discontinued in version 2? The resolution is that you get whatever chassis and tires you have selected for the "Drivers" car in the car set being used by MULTI.EXE. In other words, if you've selected the MULTICAR car set, and set the drivers car to use Ford and Goodyear, thats what you'll be driving - even if your're not driving in the same car during a Hawaii race. You've currently got control of your own chassis and tires on Hawaii. Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

>Ed, so (initially) I could go out and try to get, say, Microsoft to >sponsor my car In NRL???? Too Kewl!! Read again, that's exactly what he says you CAN'T do. Gregory Fung Vancouver, B.C., Canada

>My natural leap is a piece of code that draws the user name onto this panel, >replacing the car default texture. Could this be done? >Of course.. this prolly would not make your sponsors happy, but it sure would be cool. This is a GREAT idea, we get easier reconition and no trademark infringments! Gregory Fung Vancouver, B.C., Canada

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>So, in NRL, you won't be racing against the same drivers every week? Seems >like this is one of the great things about the WC and Busch series, you >race against the same drivers, get to know their race tactics, etc. OTOH, >if you do race against the same drivers every week, why can't the cars be >assigned at the beginning of the season? >Will there be still be room for leagues that are not NRL-sanctioned? If so, >will the league be able to assign car numbers to drivers in those series? >The league can then take responsibility for distributing the car sets to >the drivers. >Dave "davids" Sparks >Sequoia Motorsports

Well, when you realize that there are x thousand drivers in NRL, and only 50 in Winston Cup, I think the reason becomes clear. I think I beat this one to death in my original post... it just can't work. Yes, user created series will still exist in NRL. There will be pickup races, user created series & NRL series. You will have to be a member of NRL to run in NRL races and/or be a series administrator for a user created series. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Isn't everyone that races on the network going to be part of the NRL??? Or is the NRL just a part of the online service?? If everyone is part of the NRL, anyone can be a series administrator... /|\ / |#\ David Otterness / |##\ Roid Racing / |###\ #4 Best Buy Monte Carlo / |####\ #4 Best Buy Penske Mercedes ----------- Want to talk racing? \####| / Feel free to e-mail me at: \##| / Or find me on UnderNet IRC, \#| / Handle: Roid \|/

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>Isn't everyone that races on the network going to be part of the NRL??? Or >is the NRL just a part of the online service?? If everyone is part of the >NRL, anyone can be a series administrator... > /|\ > / |#\ David Otterness > / |##\ Roid Racing > / |###\ #4 Best Buy Monte Carlo > / |####\ #4 Best Buy Penske Mercedes > ----------- Want to talk racing? > \####| / Feel free to e-mail me at: > \##| / Or find me on UnderNet IRC, > \#| / Handle: Roid > \|/

You do not have to be a member of the NASCAR Racing League in order to participate. I'll try to explain... The entire "entity" is the NASCAR Racing League (NRL). The NRL will offer 3 types of events: 1) pickup races; 2) user created series; and 3) NRL series. Pickup races are pretty much exactly what we have on Hawaii now. A single race, nominated by a user. User created series (UCS) are also pretty much what we have on Hawaii now. A series of races coordinated by a series administrator. NRL series are sanctioned NASCAR events. Think of them as user created series in which NASCAR is the series administrator. If you want to participate in NRL series, you will have to become a member of the NRL. If you want to be a series adminsitrator for a user created series, you will have to join the NRL. However, if you just want to run in pickup races, or if you want to be in a UCS without being a series administrator, you will not have to join the NRL. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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>>Isn't everyone that races on the network going to be part of the NRL??? Or >>is the NRL just a part of the online service?? If everyone is part of the >>NRL, anyone can be a series administrator... >You do not have to be a member of the NASCAR Racing League in order to >participate. I'll try to explain... >The entire "entity" is the NASCAR Racing League (NRL). The NRL will >offer 3 types of events: 1) pickup races; 2) user created series; and >3) NRL series. Pickup races are pretty much exactly what we have on >Hawaii now. A single race, nominated by a user. User created series >(UCS) are also pretty much what we have on Hawaii now. A series of >races coordinated by a series administrator. NRL series are >sanctioned NASCAR events. Think of them as user created series in >which NASCAR is the series administrator. >If you want to participate in NRL series, you will have to become a >member of the NRL. If you want to be a series adminsitrator for a >user created series, you will have to join the NRL. However, if you >just want to run in pickup races, or if you want to be in a UCS >without being a series administrator, you will not have to join the >NRL. >Ed Martin >Producer, Series Director >NASCAR Racing League >Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

OK, that clears it up a lot... Thanks! /|\ / |#\ David Otterness / |##\ Roid Racing / |###\ #4 Best Buy Monte Carlo / |####\ #4 Best Buy Penske Mercedes ----------- Want to talk racing? \####| / Feel free to e-mail me at: \##| / Or find me on UnderNet IRC, \#| / Handle: Roid \|/

>Well, when you realize that there are x thousand drivers in NRL, and >only 50 in Winston Cup, I think the reason becomes clear. I think I >beat this one to death in my original post... it just can't work. Why not divide the drivers up by skill and preferred race time and perhaps further by random selection until you have 50 drivers in each series? The champions from each series would move up to a higher series until you can crown an overall champion. IOW, something more or less the way the ARCA, Busch and WC series are done now. Great! So now, if I create a user series with a fixed set of drivers participating, will I be able to put together a car set such that every driver will get the same car for each race? And can I now distribute that car set to other drivers so everyone will see the same drivers in the same cars? Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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>>Well, when you realize that there are x thousand drivers in NRL, and >>only 50 in Winston Cup, I think the reason becomes clear. I think I >>beat this one to death in my original post... it just can't work. >Why not divide the drivers up by skill and preferred race time and perhaps >further by random selection until you have 50 drivers in each series? The >champions from each series would move up to a higher series until you can >crown an overall champion. IOW, something more or less the way the ARCA, >Busch and WC series are done now.

Well, if we want to take away a lot of flexibility & lock people into set race times, this MIGHT work. However, we're not willing to take that flexibility away. This is recreation & not everyone is going to be "into it" as much as the people here on r.a.s. might be. This isn't WC... yet! :-) No. You have to use the NRL cars. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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>>Great! So now, if I create a user series with a fixed set of drivers >>participating, will I be able to put together a car set such that every >>driver will get the same car for each race? And can I now distribute that >>car set to other drivers so everyone will see the same drivers in the same >>cars? >No. You have to use the NRL cars.

Please bear with me, Ed. I'm just trying to understand how this will all work. As a league administrator, I have to join the NRL. But the drivers in my series do not necessarily have to join the NRL. But, you are saying that even the users who do not sign up for NRL will have to use NRL car sets? Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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>>>Great! So now, if I create a user series with a fixed set of drivers >>>participating, will I be able to put together a car set such that every >>>driver will get the same car for each race? And can I now distribute that >>>car set to other drivers so everyone will see the same drivers in the same >>>cars? >>No. You have to use the NRL cars. >Please bear with me, Ed. I'm just trying to understand how this will all work. >As a league administrator, I have to join the NRL. But the drivers in my >series do not necessarily have to join the NRL. But, you are saying that >even the users who do not sign up for NRL will have to use NRL car sets? >Dave "davids" Sparks >Sequoia Motorsports

Yes. Everyone on the service will drive NRL cars. You don't see anyone in Winston Cup driving a Goody's car, do you (in terms of Goody's specific sponsors... not the car itself, obviously)? Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

>Yes. Everyone on the service will drive NRL cars. You don't see >anyone in Winston Cup driving a Goody's car, do you (in terms of >Goody's specific sponsors... not the car itself, obviously)? Now it's starting to come clear, I guess I'm just a little dense. So let's say, for argument's sake, that Kellog decides to sponsor a NRL car (forgive my bias, but I'm rooting for the driver of the #5 car). They're basically paying to have their logo displayed on Hawaii for all to see. So the reason you can't allow us to drive our own cars is because the sponsors are paying to have their logo displayed no matter who the user is (NRL or not). The only problem I see with that is a lot of people turn off the car detail to get a better frame rate, so the sponsor's name may not even be displayed on all user's systems. Assuming this is cast in stone (and a lot of us hope it isn't), will we at least be able to assign a driver in a closed series to a specific car on a more or less permanent basis? Could this be done by having every driver in the series set their first choice to a different car number? Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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>>Yes. Everyone on the service will drive NRL cars. You don't see >>anyone in Winston Cup driving a Goody's car, do you (in terms of >>Goody's specific sponsors... not the car itself, obviously)? >Now it's starting to come clear, I guess I'm just a little dense. >So let's say, for argument's sake, that Kellog decides to sponsor a NRL car >(forgive my bias, but I'm rooting for the driver of the #5 car). They're >basically paying to have their logo displayed on Hawaii for all to see. So >the reason you can't allow us to drive our own cars is because the sponsors >are paying to have their logo displayed no matter who the user is (NRL or >not). >The only problem I see with that is a lot of people turn off the car detail >to get a better frame rate, so the sponsor's name may not even be displayed >on all user's systems. >Assuming this is cast in stone (and a lot of us hope it isn't), will we at >least be able to assign a driver in a closed series to a specific car on a >more or less permanent basis? Could this be done by having every driver in >the series set their first choice to a different car number? >Dave "davids" Sparks >Sequoia Motorsports

You are correct on the ability to turn off the car detail. Obviously, we will not disable that feature, even for sponsorship sake. As for user-created series, the bok is still open on how we're going to handle that. All I can say is that we obviously know that people want the ablity to drive the same car all the time (ya, like we don't want to do that, to! <g>), but there are a lot of forces at play. I'll keep everyone up to date! Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Nascar did not link up with Sierra out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm sure the old $$$ has something to do with it. Besides their collection of participants licensing fees, there is sponsorship $$$ to be made. The logos on the sides of those NRL cars won't be freebies. Therefore thou shalt use NRL carsets to keep NASCAR's sponsors happy. 1) If I went out and bought a car and got Goody's to sponsor me, you could see a Goody's car in the next WC race. No rules against who can sponsor cars in WC, only NRL. 2) Unless there is server software that allows the server to check every pixel in the clients carset to make sure there were no alterations, other carsets can be used. Either that or the server has to send the car texture info which will really slow things down. I'm also sure that those of us that don't live in big citys will be paying the big LD bills plus access charges, more then we are now. If there were ways of getting this kind of service to the little towns for cheap, don't you think that AOL and Compuserve would be doing it. Rick