GP2 - first impressions on a P200

- I grabbed the final version from Karstadt in Berlin/Wedding - it is playable at SVGA with low detail (frame rate > 20 fps) with my P5-200 / Triton II / 512kb PB-cache / 64mb EDO / Matrox Mill. 2mb, but I have to switch off some textures (heaven, hills, ..., nothing important). But then its real fun. I would be interested whether a PPro-200/Natoma(FX440)/ET6000 combination is significantly faster (as it is the case for QUAKE). With some more textures switched off it should be playable in SVGA on a P133. And low detail sounds worse that it is, it is comparable to full detail in other games. - camera views are much slower - even at low detail. - normal detail level is playable but slow (10 - 20 fps), specially at Monaco. John Wallace said some time ago: thats simply nonsense. - no 3d-accleration support - it would be of great value for the game, because full detail is very impressive, specially at Monaco. - the graphical display of many parameters after test runs is a feature I haven't seen so far. You can change almost everything at your car. - this game is excellent for beginners, very well designed driving aids. My overall judgment is that it is one of the best games I have played so far, but NASCAR with Matrox-3d-acceleration is considerably faster at SVGA. GP2 with 3d-accleration support would be the ultimate car simulator. At least an automatic switch off of details as in Nascar would help a lot. -- Technische Universitaet Berlin Tel: (030) 314-73137 FB 13 / Sekr. FR 6-1 / Raum FR 6026 Fax: +49-30-314-23516 Franklinstr. 28/29 10587 Berlin Germany

DW> - it is playable at SVGA with low detail (frame rate > 20 fps) with my DW> - camera views are much slower - even at low detail. What about the sound? Many different sounds? Good quality? Is it real samples or FM synthesis generated sound? Do you have the same control methods available in F1GP2 as in F1GP1, like linear/non-linear throttle/steering, steering help on/off, traction control? Any new control methods regarding joystick handling? DW> My overall judgment is that it is one of the best games I have played so DW> far, but NASCAR with Matrox-3d-acceleration is considerably faster at DW> SVGA. GP2 with 3d-accleration support would be the ultimate car DW> simulator. Does F1GP2 have the same gameplay ('feel') as F1GP1? Better? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Henrik Hjortnaes AMIGA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry Dietmar, but you must have your machine/graphics configured very poorly. We managed to get excellent frame rates even on a P-120, so I can't imagine why your P-200 is so poor. I think you are too greedy with graphic options? Turn them down! :) Lovely graphics are wasted if you are always crashing at 5fps. Good configuration is important. Others have posted that they have excellent frame rates even with P-90 or in some cases with DX-4 (486) - the key is only to try to run the graphics your machine can support. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/ \._____\ http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

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>>- normal detail level is playable but slow (10 - 20 fps), specially >> at Monaco. John Wallace said some time ago: >>>>>>on a P-166 and P-200 it absolutely flies<<<< >> thats simply nonsense. >Sorry Dietmar, but you must have your machine/graphics configured very >poorly. We managed to get excellent frame rates even on a P-120, so I >can't imagine why your P-200 is so poor. I think you are too greedy with >graphic options? Turn them down! :) >Lovely graphics are wasted if you are always crashing at 5fps. Good >configuration is important. Others have posted that they have excellent >frame rates even with P-90 or in some cases with DX-4 (486) - the key is >only to try to run the graphics your machine can support. >Cheers! >John

Well, it's pretty scary when software needs machinary that's 3-5 years out in the future to run in all it's glory. I think that Geoff should probably look into supporting the upcoming Voodoo and Verite chips for the next upgrade patch. =========================================================== Alex Fernandez MTS Lucent Technologies No. Andover, MA email: tel: (508)960-6510 ===========================================================

> What about the sound? Many different sounds? Good quality? > Is it real samples or FM synthesis generated sound? There are samples. The quality is good, but there aren't to many of them. I like the sounds, though I think the sound of your own motor should vary a bit, not just the same sample looped over a small time. Especially on high-speed tracks that destroys a bit of realism. Just tried keyboard jet, but yes, you can define all the steering methods as in f1gp. Additionally you can switch on/off traction help from within the game with F7. I started GP2 - choose SVGA and Monaco track and came 'round the track without a single crash (traction help on) but 8 seconds slower than I used to :-). The Keyboard Layout is the same as in f1gp, 'a','z' throttle and brake ',','.' steering , 'g' shows neighbouring drivers, 'o' occupancy of the processor ... The Helps can be toggled with function keys as in f1gp. But : Braking is much more realistic. With keyboard control, you will get a lot of blocking wheels (nice sound and smoke in your mirror ...). The steering is comparable to f1gp, but the tracks are better. You can drive over the kerbs without loosing time as in f1gp, the car will lift a bit on the side you take them. But beware crossing them with your tyres, you'll spin very quickly. So if you ever played f1gp, you will have nothing to learn to start racing in GP2, but you will be impressed by the new realism level. Stefan ---

I'm from breda... can you tell me where you got it... it want it too !!! Greetings Patrick

Hi Flashboy Wow! I didn't think I had any credibility to lose :) Thanks for that, I'm flattered. I doubt what little credibility I have is going to suffer, you have to understand that you and I are describing the same thing from different viewpoints. A few months ago one of the test team made a comment pertinent to this discussion. He said that one of the test drivers was playing the game very happily on a 486-66 (true), and that he was delighted with this until he saw the game on a P-166. Only then did he think it was poor on the 486. The point is your expectations are really high with a very well put together high-spec computer. Mine are also high, with a similar spec system to yours. Having played on your P-166, I can see why you would think people will be upset running on a P-120 or less - heck it'll be nothing like as good as yours. However, these guys have never seen it on a P-166, and their expectations will not be as high. There is no point in me saying that it runs at 10fps in SVGA full detail at Monaco on my P-200, that will only cause people to be depressed. A friend Georg Naujoks over on CompuServe is delighted with the performance on his P-90. He can run full detail VGA, or no detail SVGA with good frame rates. On the other hand, another guy Michael Wollenschein is not so happy since his (top spec) P-166 system can't do all details. Each person configures as their system allows, and makes up their own mind. You and I may be unhappy with SVGA full detail performance, but do you think anyone will avoid buying the game because we say so? I'm not that full of myself, whatever I say people will go and buy it for themselves to test. 486 users shouldn't be able to play the game at all according to the specs, so if a 486-66 runs the game smoothly in VGA with no detail, 486 owners won't give a rat's ass what I think of SVGA on a P- 166. No, the game configuration (although BIOS configuration comes into it a lot). As for proving you wrong, there is nothing to prove. If you can show me anywhere in anything that I have said Monaco can be run at 20- 25fps in full detail, I will personally buy you a nice new P-200. It was never said, and I don't know why you chose that as an example. Sure - with EVERYTHING on in SVGA a P-90 can occasionally hit 0.5/fps around Monaco - that's scary! However, turn off the "biggies" like track and sky texture, knock down the mirror detail and some other textures, and you're playing with good frame rates. If you go for all textures, the occupancy will be horrible - of course. Actually we're having a contest over on CompuServe - one of the guys has a 486-66, and we're trying to guess the occupancy figure he will get at Monaco in SVGA with full detail! :) To reiterate WHAT I SAID, "We managed to get excellent frame rates even on a P-120" - that is "excellent", not "FLY". You may not get 25fps, but you will get 18-20fps as Marc has had. Is that not better than sitting watching "the *** elite" playing it on their P-166/200 machines while most can't play it? I think so. The point is that this is a totally personal thing to each individual, what combination of frame-rate/graphics is acceptable to them. You obviosly have different expectations of graphics from myself, Marc, and some others who have played already. Others have a similar opinion to you. The game will be available to everyone soon, let them form their own opinions - they're not going to avoid buying it simply because you or I said so!! :) Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \._____\ [link lost in import: /~harmon/simnews]

> As for proving you wrong, there is nothing to prove. If you can > show me anywhere in anything that I have said Monaco can be run at 20- > 25fps in full detail, I will personally buy you a nice new P-200. John, A little cuttin & pastin and I found the following: >> John Wallace wrote (at some point in the past): >> "Monaco can be run at 20-25fps in full detail" I'll get you the address to send my nice new P-200 to!! :) :)

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> >Well, it's pretty scary when software needs machinary that's 3-5 years out > >in the future to run in all it's glory. > No, I think it's entirely sensible. Look at F1GP, it's five years old > now, and it's entirely possible that we'll be playing GP2 for the next > 5 years, so it seems a pretty good idea that it still looks good and > plays well in 5 years time when our expectations will be that much > higher.

My experience with Nascar Racing has been exactly what is described above: for the last two years I have been running it on a P60 with a lousy graphics card and have always had the details almost all turned off - no objects, track, wall textures, etc.(in SVGA) Now I have just upgraded to a P166 and it is like having a new game in some respects. Sure, the racing experience wasn't maybe as exciting (on my P60) as it is now with my new machine, but still the game was more than worth playing.

Wise guy :) _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/ \._____\ http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

ITS OUT IN HOLLAND...... I CANT WAIT

Can we please have more people like John on the newsgroup, people who can discuss issues with a cool head, admitting wrong when wrong, and without all the threatening and swear words we tend to see more and more. It becomes quite disturbing to feel like discussing with immature ***agers who don't know what discussing is all about. Don't forget that people around the world will quickly realise what you are like by reading one of your post, especially when it is made of very

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:52:34 -0700, Patrick Gilmore

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>> >Well, it's pretty scary when software needs machinary that's 3-5 years out >> >in the future to run in all it's glory. >> No, I think it's entirely sensible. Look at F1GP, it's five years old >> now, and it's entirely possible that we'll be playing GP2 for the next >> 5 years, so it seems a pretty good idea that it still looks good and >> plays well in 5 years time when our expectations will be that much >> higher. >My experience with Nascar Racing has been exactly what is described >above: for the last two years I have been running it on a P60 with a >lousy graphics card and have always had the details almost all turned off >- no objects, track, wall textures, etc.(in SVGA) Now I have just >upgraded to a P166 and it is like having a new game in some respects. >Sure, the racing experience wasn't maybe as exciting (on my P60) as it is >now with my new machine, but still the game was more than worth playing.

I think some people misunderstood me. I have nothing against games that push the top-of-the-line hardware way past the limit. It's just that I think that it's scary since folks that are fanatics and have the cash will keep upgrading their hardware just to use their software at its full potential. I'm one of them. I used to run NASCAR on my P100 w/ Millenium and it was o.k. I only payed it once in a while as compared to ICR2. I bought a P6-200MHz and NASCAR is an extreme joy! At 27fps in worst case conditions (all textures on, all opponents ahead and behind), I just wish I could spend 12 hours a day on it. By the way, doesn't anybody feel guilty about blowing away countless hours on these sims when you could do other more improtant things? =========================================================== Alex Fernandez MTS Lucent Technologies No. Andover, MA email: tel: (508)960-6510 ===========================================================

In a word....... NO Sean Alexander http://users.aol.com/cjwright/sean/vette.htm

> >I'll get you the address to send my nice new P-200 to!! :) :) > Wise guy :) I have GP2 tomorrow & I'll get a Triton II mainboard and a P166 just to play it :-) So tomorrow I'll give you the performance results for GP2 on an overclocked P166 (running at 200 - It really works!), triton II MB and a Diamond Stealth 3D card... Smokin' :-) Greets, Yves

Spent last night with F1GP2 (my wife wasn't exactly happy :), and here are some impressions: SPEED the game was faster than I feared; the automatic graphics config offers a frame rate of 16 fps with some textures and mirror detail off on SVGA (P90, Diamond Stealth SE, 24 MB RAM), but this cuts down the trackside objects. I liked it better to use all trackside graphics, and textures only on fence and smoke. OLD F1GP the game is clearly a descendant of F1GP: the keys and controls are the same, the replays are the same (this is bad. Only 20 secs of replay which you can't rewind/fast forward. But there are now the hotlap replays, see below). If you run the game on VGA graphics, all textures switched off, you have the old F1GP _plus_ car textures (not switchable), more trackside objects, much better mirrors and good AI). These are the major things the original F1GP missed, so I'd be happy even if these were the only new features. "BAD" THINGS - the brakes seem to bite too hard. If you are using keys or a joystick button to brake, you'll get smoke and screech on every corner. Apparently the game doesn't simulate flat spots on tyres :) - the tyres are not motion-textured. They look funny on several camera angles. - the cars' flight model (!) is somewhat weird, and it's quite easy to get airborne. - tyre compounds are not selectable, or at least I could't find it - pit stop menu (fuel, tyres) uses gas/brake control _only_ for selections. I'd like to see the menu/arrow keys working here, it's awkward if you are using wheel and pedals. "GOOD" THINGS - hot lap replay saving. The game stores several (depending on the amount of free memory) hot laps, which you can extract to files. But only one lap/file. If you could save all the recorded laps, you'd have almost the papyrus-like replay feature (minus the tape controls). - the graphing and analysis tools Well, that's all for now. Gotta get back to work. BTW, the game available here in Finland is the UK version, 1.0B. Copyright dates are 1995 on all printed material. Makes you wonder...

I agree about those brakes...but they really arent bad if U brake early enought(right time)...yep...it doesnt flatspot em - luckily - the tyres are not motion-textured. They look funny on several well...IMHO its exellent when U hit a curb but yes...when U hit an opponents tyre - its flytime...but thats not bad either... And U wont find it either...Goodyear brings only one compound of tyres in races nowadays so... so...looks like at that stage they thought implementing the rain....WHICH ISNT IN THE FINAL PRODUCT - SO NO RAIN! ...and looks like the weather stays the same all time... ...dunno if the track conditions change...but I doubt it ...Ive played it 1 night now and I can surely say its the best game Ive ever played. ...better stop here :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ville Kopu~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ViK at IRC, #f1 & #gp2 http://koti.kolumbus.fi/~vkopu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Second is first of loserS~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...... Could you name some of those 'more important things' ? I can not even *imagine* 1 (one/un/n/unos/ein/uno) :-) "Gravity doesn't exist; the Earth sucks!"

: Spent last night with F1GP2 (my wife wasn't exactly happy :), and here : are some impressions: : SPEED : the game was faster than I feared; the automatic graphics config : offers a frame rate of 16 fps with some textures and mirror detail off : on SVGA (P90, Diamond Stealth SE, 24 MB RAM), but this cuts down the : trackside objects. I liked it better to use all trackside graphics, : and textures only on fence and smoke. In practice (solo), qualifying or race? Other cars around seem to make big difference in performance. With similar setup in ThinkPad 760CD, practice is OK, qualifying so-and-so, race (start) awfull experience in SVGA. : "BAD" THINGS : - the brakes seem to bite too hard. If you are using keys or a : joystick button to brake, you'll get smoke and screech on every : corner. Apparently the game doesn't simulate flat spots on tyres :) Both keys for braking are on/off type controls. Try joystick or pedals, makes both acceleration and braking more sensitive. But I did like the 'suddeness' of braking and acceleration: this is a F1 car after all! : "GOOD" THINGS : - hot lap replay saving. The game stores several (depending on the : amount of free memory) hot laps, which you can extract to files. But : only one lap/file. If you could save all the recorded laps, you'd have : almost the papyrus-like replay feature (minus the tape controls). : - the graphing and analysis tools Definate plus. Makes me wonder if one really needs the analysing tools to beat ace computer cars. We shall see! Marko -- no .sig no .plan

: : What about the sound? Many different sounds? Good quality? Is it real samples or FM synthesis generated sound? Very good, I think. Realistic at least on SB 16. : Does F1GP2 have the same gameplay ('feel') as F1GP1? Better? It's clearly better. Rather fantastic, I'd say. A real joy to play =) ! It isn't fast on SVGA, but worth every (put your own currency here ;-) you paid for it. It's THE game - no matter how much I feared I'd be disappointed.. No need to worry. For people using Pentiums it's great. For slower PCs things may be different.. I think a 486DX4 is enough when using VGA. Tommi

says... >Now, I've never really got around to understanding this Univbe thing - >can someone elaborate for me. Can I get more performance from my Herc >Stingray 64/video using a different driver ? Please tell, I would, >after all, so much like to run F1GP2 in SVGA at a 'reasonable' speed. >Jeffrey D. Preou Hi Jeffrey ! Univbe is a Universal (at least, they call it so ;-) VESA driver which supports a lot of video cards currently on the market. It expands the (very often built in) in-card VESA support by adding several video modes to the ones already supported. It's widely used (and suggested) 'cause there are some cards which don't support VESA standard in-bios (in the card itself) and mainly because the registered version offers a "linear framebuffer" which can increase gfx performances by a factor of 20/30% . You must keep STRONGLY in mind however that a program has to be specifically tailored to make use of this feature (as an example, ICR2, DN3D and Descent II make use of this feature); if the program (like GP2) does not make use of it, then it's unlikely (not impossible 'thou) that you'll get some sort if improvements. I didn't notice any improvement in terms of frame rate by using SDD52 - UNIVBE with GP 2 but I have seen some command line parameters you could start GP2 with which refer to VGA & VESA mode but I have still to fiddle with 'em. You can get a complete list of 'em by referring to the little addendum which comes with the game or (if I remember correctly) by typing GP2 /? at the DOS prompt. Hope this helps (& forget this bad English) ! Best, Roberto -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Strhold Sistemi EDP Reggio Emilia ITALY --------------------------------------------------------------------- Acca', nisciuno e' fess ! (TOM - the red cat, Silvester's friend) ---------------------------------------------------------------------