GP2 "Holy Video Grail Quest"

I think we have been totally confusing people out there with our video score reports. We are mixing apples, oranges & bananas, with a few doughnuts thrown in besides. What I propose is that we stop using GP2's logon text and subjective fps/CPU% and use Chris' 3d Benchmark programs. This way we can all be on the same page and make some sense out of this mess. I am posting the suite of benchmarks in alt.binaries.simulators.autos under the heading Chris' 3d Benchmark I have also made the program available via anonymous ftp at ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/mcarver/cbench.zip Please run the test in VGA mode (bench.exe) and in SVGA mode (svgabnch.exe) and report your results. Hopefully, this way people will be able to make an informed decision on upgrading their system (if needed). Okay, my results: Gateway2000 P5-90 (Neptune Chip Set 2) with 16meg memory BIOSName = American Megatrends BIOSVersion = BIOS Version 1.00.12.AX1T Video Card: ATI PCI SuperVGA (Mach64 88800GX-D) with 2 Mb VRAM (OEM version) RAM DAC: ATI68860 24 bit DAC Clock Chip: ATI 18818-1 Clock CBench Score Frames/sec VGA 93.7 56.2 VGA 93.8 56.3 (with mergeon.exe) SVGA 28.3 17.0 SVGA 39.0 23.4 (with SDD52 or m64vbe2.0 w/acc -4 switches) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> I think we have been totally confusing people out there with our video > score reports. We are mixing apples, oranges & bananas, with a few > doughnuts thrown in besides. What I propose is that we stop using GP2's > logon text and subjective fps/CPU% and use Chris' 3d Benchmark programs. > This way we can all be on the same page and make some sense out of this > mess. I am posting the suite of benchmarks in > alt.binaries.simulators.autos under the heading > Chris' 3d Benchmark > I have also made the program available via anonymous ftp at > ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/mcarver/cbench.zip > Please run the test in VGA mode (bench.exe) and in SVGA mode > (svgabnch.exe) and report your results. Hopefully, this way people will > be able to make an informed decision on upgrading their system (if > needed). > Okay, my results: > Gateway2000 P5-90 (Neptune Chip Set 2) with 16meg memory > BIOSName = American Megatrends > BIOSVersion = BIOS Version 1.00.12.AX1T > Video Card: ATI PCI SuperVGA (Mach64 88800GX-D) with 2 Mb VRAM > (OEM version) > RAM DAC: ATI68860 24 bit DAC > Clock Chip: ATI 18818-1 Clock > CBench Score Frames/sec > VGA 93.7 56.2 > VGA 93.8 56.3 (with mergeon.exe) > SVGA 28.3 17.0 > SVGA 39.0 23.4 (with SDD52 or m64vbe2.0 w/acc -4 switches) > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I ran the bench.exe and the svgabnch.exe on my P6/200 and it resulted in the following scores. BENCH: VGA 342.9 score 205.7 frames per second SVGABNCH: SVGA 77.0 score 46.2 frames per second JEB in Vegas

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>> Gateway2000 P5-90 (Neptune Chip Set 2) with 16meg memory >> BIOSName = American Megatrends >> BIOSVersion = BIOS Version 1.00.12.AX1T >> Video Card: ATI PCI SuperVGA (Mach64 88800GX-D) with 2 Mb VRAM >> (OEM version) >> RAM DAC: ATI68860 24 bit DAC >> Clock Chip: ATI 18818-1 Clock >> >> CBench Score Frames/sec >> VGA 93.7 56.2 >> VGA 93.8 56.3 (with mergeon.exe) >> >> SVGA 28.3 17.0 >> SVGA 39.0 23.4 (with SDD52 or m64vbe2.0 w/acc -4 switches) >> >> -- >> **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* >> Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >I ran the bench.exe and the svgabnch.exe on my P6/200 >and it resulted in the following scores. > >BENCH: VGA 342.9 score > 205.7 frames per second > >SVGABNCH: SVGA 77.0 score > 46.2 frames per second > >JEB in Vegas

My results: VGA 210.3 SVGA 61.0 Intel P54C/166MHz, Matrox Millenium Clark

Good call. Here are my results. P5-150 oc'd to 166 24megs ram + Lightspeed 128 w/2.25megs VGA SCORE=200.3 fps=120.1 SVGA SCORE=62.4 fps=37.4 Hey JEB if you are out there can you run this with and without fastvid and give us the results? I am seriously considering getting the CPU and Mobo but want to be certain.

> I think we have been totally confusing people out there with our video > score reports. We are mixing apples, oranges & bananas, with a few > doughnuts thrown in besides. What I propose is that we stop using GP2's > logon text and subjective fps/CPU% and use Chris' 3d Benchmark programs. > This way we can all be on the same page and make some sense out of this > mess. Since this newsgroup is partly about GP2 and how GP2 utilises your video and CPU power, I think it is most suitable to use logon files. Although a new reader of this newsgroup, I don't think the idea of this gourp is to brag with what results I get with Chris' 3D BM prog, but to figure out the best hardware setup for GP2. _____________________________________ Harri Vainio, Helsinki Finland _____________________________________

: > : > I think we have been totally confusing people out there with our video : > score reports. We are mixing apples, oranges & bananas, with a few : > doughnuts thrown in besides. What I propose is that we stop using GP2's : > logon text and subjective fps/CPU% and use Chris' 3d Benchmark programs. : > This way we can all be on the same page and make some sense out of this : > mess. : Since this newsgroup is partly about GP2 and how GP2 utilises your video : and CPU power, I think it is most suitable to use logon files. Although : a new : reader of this newsgroup, I don't think the idea of this gourp is to : brag : with what results I get with Chris' 3D BM prog, but to figure out the : best : hardware setup for GP2. The point is to brag. The point is that the logon file does not seem to truly reflect performance in the game. Everyone is using different levels of graphics and have set their frame rate to different levels within GP2. Therefore posting this information is biased and purely subjective. There are many people buying video cards based on this information only to find little or no improvement. The point of using an outside benchmark program is to shed a little objective light on the subject. Since GP2 doesn't use vesa 2.0 extensions, running the 3d Benchmark without sdd52 or other vesa 2.0 tsr's does show how well the video card peforms and puts the subject on an objective basis. Based on this information and information on an individuals card/motherboard/cpu, we can make valid decisions on how to get good hardware setups. Not only for GP2 but other applications. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I am sorry, my earlier reply had a typo in it that totally misrepresented what I meant to say. I have deleted, but if you read it already... The point is NOT to brag! : > : > I think we have been totally confusing people out there with our video : > score reports. We are mixing apples, oranges & bananas, with a few : > doughnuts thrown in besides. What I propose is that we stop using GP2's : > logon text and subjective fps/CPU% and use Chris' 3d Benchmark programs. : > This way we can all be on the same page and make some sense out of this : > mess. : Since this newsgroup is partly about GP2 and how GP2 utilises your video : and CPU power, I think it is most suitable to use logon files. Although : a new : reader of this newsgroup, I don't think the idea of this gourp is to : brag : with what results I get with Chris' 3D BM prog, but to figure out the : best : hardware setup for GP2. The point isn't to brag. The point is that the logon file does not seem to truly reflect performance in the game. Everyone is using different levels of graphics and have set their frame rate to different levels within GP2. Therefore posting this information is biased and purely subjective. There are many people buying video cards based on this information only to find little or no improvement. The point of using an outside benchmark program is to shed a little objective light on the subject. Since GP2 doesn't use vesa 2.0 extensions, running the 3d Benchmark without sdd52 or other vesa 2.0 tsr's does show how well the video card peforms and puts the subject on an objective basis. Based on this information and information on an individuals card/motherboard/cpu, we can make valid decisions on how to get good hardware setups. Not only for GP2 but other applications. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

And to figure out which hardware setup is best, you need to know the performance of each - you need a benchmark. A couple of weeks ago I wrote a piece for next month's Sim Racing News about CBench, because I reckon it's a great program, and which I've used for a couple of months now. It works well with sims because it is based upon SVGA texture mapped 3D polygons, exactly what we use. I would suggest though that rather than post results to the newsgroup, they should be posted to the WWW page. It cuts down traffic here, and it allows non-sim fans to see and take profit of our experience. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/ \._____\ http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

Can anyone tell me where I can find some of these benchmark programs, particularily CBench. thanks russ

>> I think we have been totally confusing people out there with our video >> score reports. We are mixing apples, oranges & bananas, with a few >> doughnuts thrown in besides. What I propose is that we stop using GP2's >> logon text and subjective fps/CPU% and use Chris' 3d Benchmark programs. >> This way we can all be on the same page and make some sense out of this >> mess. Well, if you have ever browsed the comp.benchmarks group, you'll see every benchmark ever invented being debated and critized and contradicted by another benchmark. IMO the only "real" benchmark is the application that you're interested in.

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>> I am posting the suite of benchmarks in >> alt.binaries.simulators.autos under the heading >> Chris' 3d Benchmark >> I have also made the program available via anonymous ftp at >> ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/mcarver/cbench.zip >> Please run the test in VGA mode (bench.exe) and in SVGA mode >> (svgabnch.exe) and report your results. Hopefully, this way people will >> be able to make an informed decision on upgrading their system (if >> needed). >> Okay, my results: >> Gateway2000 P5-90 (Neptune Chip Set 2) with 16meg memory >> BIOSName = American Megatrends >> BIOSVersion = BIOS Version 1.00.12.AX1T >> Video Card: ATI PCI SuperVGA (Mach64 88800GX-D) with 2 Mb VRAM >> (OEM version) >> RAM DAC: ATI68860 24 bit DAC >> Clock Chip: ATI 18818-1 Clock >> CBench Score Frames/sec >> VGA 93.7 56.2 >> VGA 93.8 56.3 (with mergeon.exe) >> SVGA 28.3 17.0 >> SVGA 39.0 23.4 (with SDD52 or m64vbe2.0 w/acc -4 switches) >> -- >> **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* >> Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >I ran the bench.exe and the svgabnch.exe on my P6/200 >and it resulted in the following scores. >BENCH: VGA 342.9 score > 205.7 frames per second >SVGABNCH: SVGA 77.0 score > 46.2 frames per second >JEB in Vegas

Supermicro P6DNF (dual cpu mb) one P6 200 installed. 32MB EDO BIOS Name: AMI BIOS Version: Video Card: Matrox Millenium 4MB WRAM (full version) RAM DAC: 220 MHZ Gateway2000 P5-90 (Neptune Chip Set 2) with 16meg memory CBench Score Frames/sec VGA 242.2 145.3 VGA 340.3 204.2 (with fastvid 011 4) SVGA 46.9 204.2 SVGA 77.7 46.6 (with fastvid 011 4) The "real benchmark" in this case (GP2) gets: All track side detail: With FASTVID: Without FASTVID ALL forward objects, mirrors as forward: Estimated FR: 14.2 13.4 ALL forward objects, mirrors (no texture): Estimated FR: 15.0 15.0 Probably, Cris's 3D benchmark is a better measure of relative FPS speed than the GP2LOG since the PPro200 GP2LOG video score with fastvid is over 600 compared to 108 for a P90 with Mach64. Certainly not 6 times the video speed. Thanks for suggesting to use a more defined test Michael.

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> Good call. Here are my results. > P5-150 oc'd to 166 24megs ram + Lightspeed 128 w/2.25megs > VGA SCORE=200.3 fps=120.1 > SVGA SCORE=62.4 fps=37.4 > Hey JEB if you are out there can you run this with and without fastvid and give > us the results? I am seriously considering getting the CPU and Mobo but want to > be certain.

The results I posted were with FASTVID enabled. Without FASTVID the scores are: VGA : 208.3 125.0 Frames per second SVGA: 38.4 22.8 Frames per second As you can see the Write Combining and Linear Frame buffering being enabled makes quite a difference. JEB

I agree that cbench is a much better way to check for hardware speed and that it's important not to use Vesa 2.0. The problem I see is for Matrox Millenium, ET6000 cards, and new cards coming out with on board support for VESA 2.0. Unless it's possible to disable VESA 2.0 support on these cards, the benchmark numbers won't relate to GP2 video performance. Claude

: A couple of weeks ago I wrote a piece for next month's Sim Racing News : about CBench, because I reckon it's a great program, and which I've used : for a couple of months now. It works well with sims because it is based : upon SVGA texture mapped 3D polygons, exactly what we use. : I would suggest though that rather than post results to the newsgroup, : they should be posted to the WWW page. It cuts down traffic here, and it : allows non-sim fans to see and take profit of our experience. http://www.dfw.net/~sdw/ contains many benchmark results including CBench.

My machine Pentium 150 overclocked to 166mhz, 16mb RAM, Triton II chipset on AFX Motherboard with Diamond Stealth Video 2001 card with 2mb RAM Still don't run sky and track in GP2 even less detail at monaco.

: The results I posted were with FASTVID enabled. : Without FASTVID the scores are: : VGA : 208.3 : 125.0 Frames per second : SVGA: 38.4 : 22.8 Frames per second : As you can see the Write Combining and Linear : Frame buffering being enabled makes quite a : difference. Looks like we need Geoffr 'n team to go back to the drawing board and fix GP2 to use Linear Frame Buffering and R/W's!!!!! Should make a hell of a difference. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

: The results I posted were with FASTVID enabled. : Without FASTVID the scores are: : VGA : 208.3 : 125.0 Frames per second : SVGA: 38.4 : 22.8 Frames per second : As you can see the Write Combining and Linear : Frame buffering being enabled makes quite a : difference. Looks like we need Geoff 'n team to go back to the drawing board and fix GP2 to use Linear Frame Buffering and R/W's!!!!! Should make a hell of a difference. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hi, here are my scores I am running a P180 (o/c) with 24MB EDO RAM + 2MB ATI Mach64 Now, if this does not prove once and for all that the Mach64 is a Windows card and totally ***in DOS I don't know what will. (To the shops Batman, a Matrox Millenium awaits......) Stephen Scully: Time is an universal invariant Mulder: Not in this zipcode

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>> Chris' 3d Benchmark >>Please run the test in VGA mode (bench.exe) and in SVGA mode >>(svgabnch.exe) and report your results. Hopefully, this way people will >>be able to make an informed decision on upgrading their system (if >>needed). >Hi, > here are my scores >I am running a P180 (o/c) with 24MB EDO RAM + 2MB ATI Mach64 >Now, if this does not prove once and for all that the Mach64 is a >Windows card and totally ***in DOS I don't know what will. (To the >shops Batman, a Matrox Millenium awaits......) >Stephen >Scully: Time is an universal invariant >Mulder: Not in this zipcode

You might want to think about using either 166 or 200 so that you can have a 66mhz bus speed over a 60. You could possibly get better performance at 166 than 180. My p5-150 oc'd to 166 w/lightspeed 128 VGA 200.3/120.1 SVGA 62.4/37.4 When you change your card can you post results while still at 180?

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>> Chris' 3d Benchmark >Hi, > here are my scores >I am running a P180 (o/c) with 24MB EDO RAM + 2MB ATI Mach64 >Now, if this does not prove once and for all that the Mach64 is a >Windows card and totally ***in DOS I don't know what will. (To the >shops Batman, a Matrox Millenium awaits......) >Stephen

Hi, I have a Matrox Millenium 2 m/b running on a P166 with 16 mb edo ram John

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> > Chris' 3d Benchmark > >Please run the test in VGA mode (bench.exe) and in SVGA mode > >(svgabnch.exe) and report your results. Hopefully, this way people will > >be able to make an informed decision on upgrading their system (if > >needed). > Hi, > here are my scores > I am running a P180 (o/c) with 24MB EDO RAM + 2MB ATI Mach64 > Now, if this does not prove once and for all that the Mach64 is a > Windows card and totally ***in DOS I don't know what will. (To the > shops Batman, a Matrox Millenium awaits......) > Stephen > Scully: Time is an universal invariant > Mulder: Not in this zipcode

Are you sure this info is correct. I find it hard to very hard to believe that you are getting 30+ fps let alone 72 fps on gp2. Oh yeah I wasn't aware that intel or anyone else made a P180. Is is overclocked or something? Chris

>Hi, > I have a Matrox Millenium 2 m/b running on a P166 with 16 mb edo ram >John Can someone please tell me where to find the SPEED.EXE program. Thanks, J.C.V.

[....] I'd also like to know which runs GP2 better a P150 Matrox Millenium oc'd to 180 or the same but overclocked to 166? Here's my system, just to balance the give/take scales. P166 16mb 512k pb cache, Herc Stingray 64/V 2 Mb DRAM CBench Score Frames/sec VGA 205.8 123.4 VGA 206.0 123.6 (with SDD52) SVGA 61.5 36.9 SVGA 64.9 38.9 (with SDD52) gp2 log:on speed: 322 video: 417 GP2 suggests 12.1 frames for SVGA with everything on.