Are you going to spend $500-1000 to race Nascar2 on TEN?

Hey! I'm a fan of multiplayer racing simulations. The very concept of an online Nascar sanctioned series is exciting and it would be enjoyable to participate, but I gotta' rethink my involvement in the NRO after looking at TEN's pricing. After December 31, monthly TEN service is $29.95 PLUS $.95 per hour for local access numbers. The latest Papyrus memo from Hawaii implies that because of latency problems that using a local access number will be necessary to participate in the NRO. Let's see. 30 x 12 = $360 plus 5 hours/week x 52 weeks = $250. That's more than cable television in most areas. It also appears that Papyrus will have a separate fee for the NRO that is on top of TEN's fees. If this thing is as ***ive as Hawaii can be then you better be prepared to spend $500 to $1000+ in 1997 for racing Nascar2. Are you listening Kali? Eight player races on Kali might not be as exciting as 30 car jams but I'm going to vote with my wallet. I don't like being ripped off. MPA

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> Hey! I'm a fan of multiplayer racing simulations. The very concept of an > online Nascar sanctioned series is exciting and it would be enjoyable to > participate, but I gotta' rethink my involvement in the NRO after looking at > TEN's pricing. > After December 31, monthly TEN service is $29.95 PLUS $.95 per hour for local > access numbers. The latest Papyrus memo from Hawaii implies that because > of latency problems that using a local access number will be necessary to > participate in the NRO. > Let's see. 30 x 12 = $360 plus 5 hours/week x 52 weeks = $250. That's more > than cable television in most areas. It also appears that Papyrus will have a > separate fee for the NRO that is on top of TEN's fees. If this thing is as > ***ive as Hawaii can be then you better be prepared to spend $500 to $1000+ > in 1997 for racing Nascar2. > Are you listening Kali? Eight player races on Kali might not be as exciting as > 30 car jams but I'm going to vote with my wallet. I don't like being ripped > off. > MPAYou shouldn't ever add stuff up like that...it can be depressing.

Considering what I'm spending on long distance now......I look forward to the savings!! <g> Besides, cable tv never made me sweat like Nascar Racing does! Terry

oh Man! I'd love to spend just that to race in Mplayer mode, but calling from Italy may cost that for ONE race! -- Alberto Manassero

The .95 cents per hour is if you use their ISP. My ISP is a flat $16.50 per month so thats not a problem for me. -- Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2. http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/

I'm not sure why you feel you are being "ripped off". There are some expenses involved in providing the service and a company has to make some money on top of that. Compare $360 per year to the $100 or more per month that some of us are paying right now in LD charges to dial Hawaii direct. The leading (bleeding) edge of technology is always expensive. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

Hey, Im not saying there should be NO cost but I agree completely with M Pete. I Realize that some of You may save money at this rate and thats fine, My largest phone bill in a month for just hawaii was around $120.00 and my LD is 10.2 c/Minute. That bill cured me in a hurry. Not that I cant spend $120 a month for recreation, but thats BS to pay Ten + NRO + ISP + Online time + G__ knows what else. I have a sense of humor but hey, Ill get KALI on my local ISP and play with my friends in our own league on a local Internet connection for FREE. Hey, maybe it isn't 36 players but how many races are on hawaii. Some, but late at night when I'm on its not as active. Would I play 8 people for next to nothing, sure. Another note, I can tell You from experience, being wrecked at Tdega lap 1 turn 1 with NO hope of repair and NO way to avoid the trouble gets mighty irritating when you think to yourself, "That 1/7 of a lap just cost me $xxx.xx" People are a lot more uptight about getting hosed in a race when they're paying for it. If you don't beleive that, just get on hawaii and wreck someone and see what they say. Some Examples --- "This is BS when I paying bla bla bla" "Whats this guy think, this is free" "Im never gonna race with that AH again, this is too expensive for that stuff" Anyone who has ever been on hawaii has seen this. In conclusion, It isn't so much that we can't pay the amounts they want, On the Internet, We shouldn't have to.

I'm a bit surprised that so many people think that TEN is a "deal" because it's cheaper than long distance. To me the argument is the same as somedody telling me I should be happy to pay $1.50/gallon for gas because Europeans have to pay $4 or $5. I just think that the service is overpriced at $30/month plus hourly charges. BTW I won't spend $40 for a ticket to a major league baseball or football game either for the same reason. I understand the numbers. It's their business and their pricing decision. I will vote with my wallet. I also think that NASCAR2 is a great value at $50. Go figure. MPA

I run Hawaii approx. 8hrs. per month at $48.00 per month. With Ten,Concentric (local) access, and long distance to get the "local" access..........................$46.00 per month. Using Dave Sparks figure of $100.00 per month and using MY hourly long distance charge for calling Concentrics' "local access"number It came to 16+ hours per month and monthly bill of....$62.00 per month for the same amount of hours he races now. In my case for "unlimited" access I spend about the same for the same amount of time. Dave, however will save around 30 odd bucks. So I would really get more value if I spend twice as much time racing. I just came from Concentrics' web page thinking that if I use them as an ISP I would save money and a connect charge. No go there. Why? Concentric has approx 215 local access numbers in various cities. This amount does not begin to cover the multitude of local phone zones in the U.S. Unless you live within a local call of their "local access" number ( I don't) you'll pay an extra per hour LD charge for calling Concentrics' number. Here, in the suburbs of Sacramento, non-peak time is approximately $1.05 an hour PLUS .095cents per hour for the "local access" number from Concentric. Now, if you have a stout ISP with great latency and/or you only use the "local access" number for NRO races the cost is lessened. Similarly. if the $14.95 deal (if you sign up this month) is a locked in deal then you save a bit more.( NRO won't be up a few months so as far as the savings, I'm not sure). I have no idea how to rate an ISP for latency. Does anyone out there know? I'm not judging either way on this right now. I'm a bit dismayed at the lack of local access numbers but I'm hoping to find an ISP with adequate latency. $30.00 is a bit of money..I'll be waiting to see what I get for it. Regards, Greg Gavel on Hawaii

Actually, you can get the $5/month deal for now and switch it over to the $15/month unlimited (I called and asked) when NRO is ready. Even at these rates it'll be too expensive if the NRO adds an additional monthly fee though. David *** You're only young once, but you can stay immature forever ***

Do a trace route. Should be less than 13 hops and less than 300ms to be playable. ---Wayne

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> >$120 a month for recreation, but thats BS to pay Ten + NRO + ISP + Online > >time + G__ knows what else. I have a sense of humor but hey, Ill get KALI > OK, what's stopping you? N2 has many options (computer AI, 1-on-1 > direct or modem, 8x network, or 30-some TEN), pick the one thats best > for you. Don't***and moan (as many are) that Sierra is providing a > service that you desperately want, but they're charging you too much

Good point. I hope Sierra/Papyrus and TEN do get together on their charges to make things affordable, but between driving with the AI (which by the way should be a heap sight better than NCR1), NRO, and modem races across town with my NRO teammate, I probably won't need to spend more than 15 hours/month online racing. Now, hawaii would cost me $90/month to run 15 hours. I would expect to at least be able to do the same using TEN, so my budget will be maxxed at $90/month for NASCAR. Everything under $90/month that I don't spend will go for beer. :-) You can complain all you want about what you speculate the price to be, but noone really knows what it will cost. We may be very surprised when they finally release the cost. David Martin

The primary gripe I have with *** companies is they should offer the *purchaser/customer* the choice. Hey, sure they're a business and their motives are profit oriented, but this online 'product' only packaging currently done under the noble guise of "in the customer interest" is utterly usurious! Package LAN AND Online multiplayer and let the customer decide .....until NASCAR 2, this hasn't been the norm. I don't even object to paying for the LAN module as an add-on pack..but I do resent it not being available and I won't buy product anymore that doesn't include it. Indycar 2, Back to Baghdad ...and sims such as these which would have been virtually mandatory buying were left on the shelf for this very reason by myself and many of my friends and co-players. I'll take 8 player organised LAN play via a 10 Mbps bandwidth pipe anyday over 28800 *bps* disorganised chaos! So let the customer choose whether he wants to play in an open 32 player forum or a closed 8 player group. He can also choose whether he wants to put up with the performance and limitations of KALI or pay the premium for the optimised Hawaii/TEN/MP server and additional players if his medium of choice is the Net. It appears to me these are all totally seperate potential markets anyway. Luckily for us in the longer term, I 'predict' <G> as the number of companies producing racing sims (vs arcade) becomes greater and majority of customers begin choosing which sim will get their cash & time instead of buying everything remotely resembling a racing sim which hits the market place irrespective, companies will be subtly co-erced or 'guided' into offering these features to capture market share and in competition for success of their particular sim in the marketplace. * * *

Gotta jump in here. There IS such a thing as 'gouging" and the "free" market is only free to the marketers to sell their goods and services for whatever they can get for them. The "pissers" and the "moaners" ARE the market, and the Demand. Their voices raised and pocketbooks withheld are the only tools they have to influence business. Pissers and moaners? Jeez, look at this newsgroup. Software designers (read business) come here to solicit ways to make their product better. They recruit beta testers from here for good reason. These same people listen to the "pissing and moaning" and make business decision based in part upon it. What correlation is there between financial ability and being "riff-raff"? ***s come from ALL the social strata. How interesting that you assume that those who don't take it seriously are going to be eliminated by somehow outpricing their abilty to pay. Where in all of the Hawaii logs does it show the connection between abilty to afford and causing wrecks online? What do you base your opinion on? Further, I've raced with 14 year olds who are poised and in control on the track and are even League administrators. And I've raced against 28 year olds who can't make it down a straight away without weaving like a drunk. The point!: Little rich boy will get Dad to sign him on to TEN and be every much riff raff as you think those with less deep pockets are. Familiar? yeah. Screening they call it in the business world. Discrimination when applied here, and by baseless standards to boot. Less able to pay=riff raff? Who said anything about government funding? How does that relate? I am. I want more. I am the market. Regards, Gavel

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> > OK, what's stopping you? N2 has many options (computer AI, 1-on-1 > >direct or modem, 8x network, or 30-some TEN), pick the one thats best > >for you. Don't***and moan (as many are) that Sierra is providing a > >service that you desperately want, but they're charging you too much > >for it!?!. It's called the *free market*. If there is indeed a > >demand for a cheaper service, it will happen. It seems like many > >people bought the game expecting this service for practically nothing. > >Sorry but it ain't gonna happen that way. > Gotta jump in here. There IS such a thing as 'gouging" and the "free" > market is only free to the marketers to sell their goods and services for > whatever they can get for them. The "pissers" and the "moaners" ARE > the market, and the Demand. Their voices raised and pocketbooks > withheld are the only tools they have to influence business. Pissers and > moaners? Jeez, look at this newsgroup. Software designers (read business) > come here to solicit ways to make their product better. They recruit beta > testers from here for good reason. These same people listen to the "pissing > and moaning" and make business decision based in part upon it. > > Interesting. You want it cheap enough for *you* to play whenever > >you want, but you don't want the riff-raff let on who won't take it > >seriously? One way to keep off the riff-raff is to make it a > >moderately costly service with preregistration by an *** required. > >Hmmm, does that sound familiar... > What correlation is there between financial ability and being "riff-raff"? > ***s come from ALL the social strata. How interesting that you assume > that those who don't take it seriously are going to be eliminated by somehow > outpricing their abilty to pay. Where in all of the Hawaii logs does it show > the connection between abilty to afford and causing wrecks online? What > do you base your opinion on? Further, I've raced with 14 year olds who are > poised and in control on the track and are even League administrators. And > I've raced against 28 year olds who can't make it down a straight away > without weaving like a drunk. > The point!: Little rich boy will get Dad to sign him on to TEN and be every > much riff raff as you think those with less deep pockets are. Familiar? yeah. > Screening they call it in the business world. Discrimination when applied > here, and by baseless standards to boot. Less able to pay=riff raff? > >>In conclusion, It isn't so much that we can't pay the amounts they want, > >>On the Internet, We shouldn't have to. > > Yes, we'll let big daddy government pay for. That won't cost us > >anything... ;) > Who said anything about government funding? How does that relate? > > Oh, and be thankful that N2 gave us the option of 8x networked > >play... ;) > I am. I want more. I am the market. > Regards, > Gavel

I LIKE IT!!!!

What address are you using for the trace route? --- Frank ---

What other technology do you have to compare it to? The comparision to LD is the closest comparision I can think of. Other low-latency technologies, such as video conferencing and the like, are considerably MORE expensive. So if you can give me an example of a similar technology, which provides the same or better service, at a lower price, I'd like to know about it. I'm sure Papyrus would, too. I think Papyrus/TEN/Concentric has probably priced it as low as they can and still make a reasonable return on their investment. I'm a businessman, and I'd do exactly the same. Next year, when the technology becomes cheaper, the price will probably go down. Personally, I'd rather turn the $40/month I'm paying to the cable company over to Papyrus/NRO, but the wife and kids would probably roll my computer down the hill in front of my house. <g> Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

Try darkride.com. ---Wayne.

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> >Do a trace route. Should be less than 13 hops and less than > >300ms to be playable. > > ---Wayne > >> I have no idea how to rate an ISP for latency. Does anyone out there > >> know? I > What address are you using for the trace route? > --- Frank ---

[Lots of well thought out comments snipped here] Bravo, Jeff. It's good to hear a voice of sanity in the throng of discontent. Dave (davids) Sparks Late Night League http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

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>Try darkride.com. > ---Wayne. >> On 11 Dec 1996 09:47:01 -0700, "Wayne Williams" >> >Do a trace route. Should be less than 13 hops and less than >> >300ms to be playable. >> > ---Wayne >> >> I have no idea how to rate an ISP for latency. Does anyone out there >> >> know? I >> What address are you using for the trace route? >> --- Frank ---

I come up with an unresolved IP address on darkride.com. Do you have the actual IP addess? --- Frank ---

Sorry for the mistake it is actually darkride.ten.net. Do a tracert darkride.ten.net and look at the number of hops and the times. Regards, ---Wayne

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> >Try darkride.com. > > ---Wayne. > >> On 11 Dec 1996 09:47:01 -0700, "Wayne Williams" > >> >Do a trace route. Should be less than 13 hops and less than > >> >300ms to be playable. > >> > ---Wayne > >> >> I have no idea how to rate an ISP for latency. Does anyone out

there

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> >> >> know? I > >> What address are you using for the trace route? > >> --- Frank --- > I come up with an unresolved IP address on darkride.com. Do you have the

actual > IP addess? > --- Frank ---

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>Sorry for the mistake it is actually darkride.ten.net. >Do a tracert darkride.ten.net and look at the number >of hops and the times. >Regards, > ---Wayne >> On 12 Dec 1996 09:32:02 -0700, "Wayne Williams" >> >Try darkride.com. >> > ---Wayne. >> >> On 11 Dec 1996 09:47:01 -0700, "Wayne Williams" >> >> >Do a trace route. Should be less than 13 hops and less than >> >> >300ms to be playable. >> >> > ---Wayne >> >> >> I have no idea how to rate an ISP for latency. Does anyone out >there >> >> >> know? I >> >> What address are you using for the trace route? >> >> --- Frank --- >> I come up with an unresolved IP address on darkride.com. Do you have the >actual >> IP addess? >> --- Frank ---

Thanks alot, that did the trick! On Friday night 10:50 PM EST I average about 220 ms round trip in about 14 hops. I think that I'll be OK. I'm glad to see that. I wasn't looking forward to having to pay long distance to do this. --- Frank ---