Anybody know when Papyrus is releasing its F1 sim which BTW is based on the
1967 Grand Prix season. It will utilise new 3D physics to accurately model
even independent suspension movements. Imagine driving around the old
Nurburgring in a powerful but gripless circa 1967 F1 racer. Talk about
four wheel drift heaven.
Notable threadPapyrus's upcoming 1967 Grand Prix sim
Fans discussed Papyrus's forthcoming F1 sim based on the 1967 season with a new physics model, expected around Christmas 1997 and listed on Sierra's calendar as 'Grand Prix'. Some preferred bug fixes for NASCAR 2 or a modern F1 sim, but many were excited about the old Nurburgring, Monza's banking and 1960s cars. Jim Sokoloff said Watkins Glen would be included if licensing allowed.
With Jim Sokoloff (Papyrus)
Automated summary.
That should be fun. How long was the old Nurburgring? 14 miles?
Look for it around x-mas '97...An early-look may be available
around June at E3, but Papy hasn't yet decided (or confirmed)
this.
Marc
Marc J. Nelson
Sim Racing News - USA
I personally think it is a waste of time when Papyrus could be making a
current F1 sim that I feel people would be more interested in. IN addition,
they also could be spending time fixing all the lame bugs in N2 and making
it available several graphic accelerators other than Verite.
Eric
writes:
REPLY:
I second it. I wouldn't mind seeing the old cars but at the same time the
above is more important to me to regardind N2. I won't balk at F1 either but
again it's not my 1rst choice.
If the schedule of upgrading N2 and another product doesn't collide then I
still rather see either dirt style tracks, a demo derby or ultimately a Drag
Racing game, with deep engine setup features and different drag classses. Also
keep in mind multiplayer aspects (8+ min.) where as two are racing the other 6
or so can be tweaking their final setups waiting their turn in the brackets.
Possibly make the whole drag day expierence in realtime. Where as once the
competition begins each drag has an allotted time between each. So those that
aren't racing can tweak or repair their cars but have a limited time in doing
so as well. Make it, so if there is damage during the race that it's not
magically fixed, but the player has to diagnose it and fix it, again in an
alloted normal amount of time. Drag Race Sim would be as big as Nascar IMO and
much easier on internet bandwith with less actual racing info. being generated
while the actual drag is happening.
Q.B.M.
writes:
Simracer:
NOOOOOOO! THE KISS OF DEATHHHHHHHHH!
Not another X-mas job on us. :)
Q.B.M.
Awesome!!! I would absolutely *love* to have such a sim!! I don't like
the dynamics of the recent GP cars very much; too much point-and-squirt,
jam it into the corners, if it breaks loose it's gone. I'd love to
drive cars that you can pitch sideways, steer with the throttle, really
throw around. The closest I've come to this is a nice tossable setup I
have for ICR2 Long Beach, but to actually be able to drive 1967 F1 cars!
Fantastic!
I want a Lotus 49-Ford at Monaco! No, wait! A Brabham-Repco, no, a BRM
H-16 at the Nurburgring! I want to experience the *real* Silverstone -
without chicanes - Abbey, Club, Stowe, the awesome Woodcote!! An
Eagle-Weslake at the old, round-the-houses Spa!!! Brands Hatch's Dingle
Dell...Watkins Glen without the Interloop!! Ahhhhh!!!!!
I need a time-warp machine, to make Christmas come now!!
Please, please Papyrus, tell us you'll do this, really!
--
Alison Hine
>Anybody know when Papyrus is releasing its F1 sim which BTW is based on the
>1967 Grand Prix season. It will utilise new 3D physics to accurately model
>even independent suspension movements. Imagine driving around the old
>Nurburgring in a powerful but gripless circa 1967 F1 racer. Talk about
>four wheel drift heaven.
Hopefully the release date for this promising sim will be "When it's finished"
and not another push it out the door before Xmas and patch it later
like the last two xmas releases from Papy.
Either way like the last two, I am looking forward to another great sim,
hoping this one might even have the old banked tracks that F1 used to race on
at Monza (I think), at least from watching the movie Grand Prix the track
looked like a lot of fun!
Way to go Papyrus for coming up with a great idea for a sim, anyone
who watches the movie "Grand Prix" will look forward to this sim.
Cheers.
--John
--
Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.
------------------------------+--------------------------
Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.cool.com/~jsilva
<snip>
: I want a Lotus 49-Ford at Monaco! No, wait! A Brabham-Repco, no, a BRM
: H-16 at the Nurburgring! I want to experience the *real* Silverstone -
: without chicanes - Abbey, Club, Stowe, the awesome Woodcote!! An
: Eagle-Weslake at the old, round-the-houses Spa!!! Brands Hatch's Dingle
: Dell...Watkins Glen without the Interloop!! Ahhhhh!!!!!
<snip>
I think you should send your resume into Sierra. This sounds like a
wonderful pitch for the ad campaign. :-)
I was sold before, but now I want it even more!
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Either way like the last two, I am looking forward to another great sim,
> hoping this one might even have the old banked tracks that F1 used to race on
> at Monza (I think), at least from watching the movie Grand Prix the track
> looked like a lot of fun!
Yes, it was Monza. The curve which has now the name "parabolica" used to
be banked. Actually I don't know the exact translation of "parabolica" into
English but "banked" is a pretty close one.
To say the truth the old banked track still exists, just a few metres
behind the modern curve. There is another banked turn just before the first
variant which winds back to the straight after the Ascari variant, so that
there is a "indy circuit" in the park.
I don't know whether they ever raced only with two straights and two
banked turns, though.
Bye,
LUca
On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:49:03 +0000, Luca Varani
>To say the truth the old banked track still exists, just a few metres
>behind the modern curve. There is another banked turn just before the first
>variant which winds back to the straight after the Ascari variant, so that
>there is a "indy circuit" in the park.
>I don't know whether they ever raced only with two straights and two
>banked turns, though.
Yes, they did, although it was more common for the races to be run on
both the banking and the flat course at the same time. They did one
circuit aound the banking and then around the normal course, using the
main straight twice in one lap! This is why the main straight is so
wide at Monza.
I think the banking was last used for GP cars in the filming of Grand
Prix, although sportscars used it up till the early '70s.
Alan Head
Screamer 2 homepages:
http://www.feature.demon.co.uk/games.htm
-----------------------------------------
I read in Boot magazine 6\97 but that cant be right slow as Papy is about
putting out theyre bugs I mean games.
Here is/was the 1967 Scedule and who won the race..
1. South African GP (Kyalami), won by Pedro Rodriguez (Cooper-Meserati)
2. Monaco GP (Monaco), won by Denny Hulme (Repco-Brabham)
3. Dutch GP (Zandvoort), won by Jim Clark (Lotus-Cosworth)
4. Belgian GP (Spa-Francorchamps), won by Dan Gurney (Eagle-Weslake)
5. French GP (Circuit Bugatti, Le Mans), won by Jack Brabham (Repco-Brabham)
6. British GP (Silverstone), won by Jim Clark (Lotus-Cosworth)
7. German GP (Nurburgring), won by Denny Hulme (Repco-Brabham)
8. Canadian GP (Mosport Park), won by Jack Brabham (Repco-Brabham)
9. Italian GP (Monza), won by John Surtees (Honda)
10. United States GP (Watkins Glen), won by Jim Clark (Lotus-Cosworth)
11. Mexican GP (Mexico City), won by Jim Clark (Lotus-Cosworth)
WWW: http://www.io.com/~taylor23
Quoted text (7 lines)
>>Anybody know when Papyrus is releasing its F1 sim which BTW is based on the >>1967 Grand Prix season. It will utilise new 3D physics to accurately model >>even independent suspension movements. Imagine driving around the old >>Nurburgring in a powerful but gripless circa 1967 F1 racer. Talk about >>four wheel drift heaven. >Hopefully the release date for this promising sim will be "When it'sQuoted text (7 lines)
>and not another push it out the door before Xmas and patch it later >like the last two xmas releases from Papy. >Either way like the last two, I am looking forward to another great sim, >hoping this one might even have the old banked tracks that F1 used to race on >at Monza (I think), at least from watching the movie Grand Prix the track >looked like a lot of fun!Yep, that's right, although I don't think that the film was supposed
to be based on any particular season, just the events from GP racing
in the early '60s. For example, the crash on the banking at the end of
the film may have been inspired by Wolfgang von Trips' fatal accident
a few years earlier, although that took place at the Parabolica I
believe. Garner's character is definitely based on Phil Hill, as he
was the one to benefit from von Trips' death. He won the championship
that year when all that von Trips had to do was finish at Monza in
that fateful race. I personally hope that Papyrus put the banking in,
and use the full Monza circuit in the sim - at least they have some
expertise in designing banking!
One thing that is bothering me is how the hell they are going to model
long tracks like the old Monza (6-8km), Spa Francorchamps (12km), and
the Nurburgring (12 miles). Surely that is going to need a fair amount
of memory or at worst loads of swapfile access?
If they can do it it will be totally awesome! I've driven it in a road
car (and as pillion on a motorcycle), and it is terrifying even at
relatively low speed. I can't begin to imagine the courage (or
stupidity) it must have taken to drive it in a zero-grip F1.
Alan Head
Screamer 2 homepages:
http://www.feature.demon.co.uk/games.htm
-----------------------------------------
Denny Hulme won the World Championship that year, didn't he?
-Al
Min of 32 meg required for Nurburgring maybe?? Wouldn't bother me but I
guess that a lot would complain....
I'm just looking forward to the _weeks_ that will be required to learn
the track <g>
Cheers,
Richard
> Path:
news1.neo.lrun.com!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dcitelepor
t.com!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!psinntp!shareinfo.com!pubxfer.news.psi
net!usenet
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
> Subject: Re: Papyrus 1967 F1 Sim?????
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:10:30 GMT
> Organization: Osborn Engineering Co.
> Lines: 2
Somebody please rekindle me on what type of Ferrari's were running F1 back in
'67. Thanks.
Q.B.M.
A look at the Sierra web page (www.papy.com) shows the following on their
calendar:
available for holiday, 1997
Grand Prix
Could this be our game?
Wholi
I would imagine they are doing both at the same time. Companies don't
just work on one project at a time.
--
Todo Es Justo En Amor Y Carreras.
The Rusty Wallace Miller Lite stock car, awsome when opened up!
GO#2!
Mullins Motorsports Inc.
http://www.***tron.com/~ddmj
Quoted text (7 lines)
>> Denny Hulme won the World Championship that year, didn't he? >> -Al >Somebody please rekindle me on what type of Ferrari's were running F1 back in >'67. Thanks. >Q.B.M.DON:
REPLY:
That's why I used IF, I didn't want to assume anything.
Q.B.M.
The V12 Ferrari 312 was raced in 1967, with the 'main' driver being
the Kiwi Chris Amon. This car was raced from 1966-1969 until the 12
cylinder boxer motor was introduced in the 312B, which was a major
improvement.
The '67 season was of course won by the late great Denis Hulme -
another Kiwi; not too bad against the awesome Scot Jim Clark in a DFV
Ford Lotus 49!!
Rob Adlam
New Zealand.
Quoted text (13 lines)
>>One thing that is bothering me is how the hell they are going to model >>long tracks like the old Monza (6-8km), Spa Francorchamps (12km), and >>the Nurburgring (12 miles). Surely that is going to need a fair amount >>of memory or at worst loads of swapfile access? >Min of 32 meg required for Nurburgring maybe?? Wouldn't bother me but I >guess that a lot would complain.... >I'm just looking forward to the _weeks_ that will be required to learn >the track <g> >Cheers, >RichardQuoted text (7 lines)
>>One thing that is bothering me is how the hell they are going to model >>long tracks like the old Monza (6-8km), Spa Francorchamps (12km), and >>the Nurburgring (12 miles). Surely that is going to need a fair amount >>of memory or at worst loads of swapfile access? >Min of 32 meg required for Nurburgring maybe?? Wouldn't bother me but I >guess that a lot would complain....>Min of 32 meg required for Nurburgring maybe?? Wouldn't bother me but I
>guess that a lot would complain....
>I'm just looking forward to the _weeks_ that will be required to learn
>the track <g>
...and no replay to speak of?!!!
Wouldn't bother me either. Was there a shorter version of that track
at the time? Perhaps, like the 4 and 8bit (???) car sets used in the
Rendition ICR2/NCR2 (from stuff I've read, I don't own one so correct
any mistakes please), there'll be an option of both.
Frankly I can't imagine the effort that would be required to model
that track accurately given the time it takes for the 'simple' ovals
in Nascar (again from memory of a long ago post from Mr Rick Genter).
Stuart
--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Oxfordshire, England, UK
Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z
Why not Monza without any chicanes and with the double oval/road track.
I think the oval track at Monza has one of the highest banking in the
world. If this is real, I can resist. Just hope everybody and send
E-mail to papyrus to suggest things to them. Thanks a lot,
Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy)
[===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve,
| ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is
|!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le
|o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
[--I--]
v
Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand"
Nien Numb in the National Star Wars League(X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter league)
http://www.dakotacom.net/~strange/
http://www.starwars.com/
Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition,N2,Gp2,Icr2.How can my life be better?
May the force be with you, always!!
Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people)
Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)
Here is a schema of the old Monza track
I am pretty sure at 95% that it is right.
Old Gp in Monza used the Oval and the Road track to race.
Now what we call the pits served before the track. The track schema
starts on 1 and finish in 12. the ===== means that the 2 tracks were
side by side.
____
2/ \
| \
| \
| \ __7________Oval________8_____
| \ / \
| X \
| / \_3_________Road__________ | \ 6 | \ |9
\ \ 5 4 / /
1 \______================================/
12 11 10
Thanks a lot,
Hope it will be like this
Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy)
[===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve,
| ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is
|!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le
|o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
[--I--]
v
Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand"
Nien Numb in the National Star Wars League(X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter league)
http://www.dakotacom.net/~strange/
http://www.starwars.com/
Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition,N2,Gp2,Icr2.How can my life be better?
May the force be with you, always!!
Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people)
Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)
> A look at the Sierra web page (www.papy.com) shows the following on their
> calendar:
> available for holiday, 1997
> Grand Prix
> Could this be our game?
> Wholi
I think you're right
Here is the address:
http://www.papy.com/news/calendar/
Cool
Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy)
[===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve,
| ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is
|!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le
|o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
[--I--]
v
Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand"
Nien Numb in the National Star Wars League(X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter league)
http://www.dakotacom.net/~strange/
http://www.starwars.com/
Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition,N2,Gp2,Icr2.How can my life be better?
May the force be with you, always!!
Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people)
Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)
Quoted text (10 lines)
><snip> >: I want a Lotus 49-Ford at Monaco! No, wait! A Brabham-Repco, no, a BRM >: H-16 at the Nurburgring! I want to experience the *real* Silverstone - >: without chicanes - Abbey, Club, Stowe, the awesome Woodcote!! An >: Eagle-Weslake at the old, round-the-houses Spa!!! Brands Hatch's Dingle >: Dell...Watkins Glen without the Interloop!! Ahhhhh!!!!! ><snip> >I think you should send your resume into Sierra. This sounds like a >wonderful pitch for the ad campaign. :-)Quoted text (7 lines)
>I was sold before, but now I want it even more! >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=This may seem like a silly question, but what was at the X where the tracks crossed? I'm assuming a tunnel or bridge....It would be silly to have traffic lights there :) As for them using the front straight twice, It might be confusing which way to go at t12, or was there pylons or some other division to the wide track?
Rick Martel
: This may seem like a silly question, but what was at the X where the tracks crossed? I'm assuming a tunnel or bridge....It would be silly to have traffic lights there :) As for them using the front straight twice, It might be confusing which way to go
at t12, or was there pylons or some other division to the wide track?
Well it was a bridge situation, with the road course dipping beneath the
banking of the oval. These can still be seen today, as the oval still
exists although it is in great disrepair.
Now, AFAIK no race was ever run merging of the two tracks, certainly not a
Grand Prix. Yes, the two shared the front straight but they were seperate
tracks. The oval was used twice for two races in the 50s, staged as a
meeting of the two worlds (United States and Europe) with the American
drivers running circles around the Europeans (sorry for the pun).
Don't concider movie melodrama as reality. When _Grand Prix_ was made, the
director thought it would be neat to include the banking. Luckily, it was
the 60s and the track hadn't deteriated that much so it could be used.
...as for a track that combines a mix of oval flavour with a road course
there actually are a few. Texas World Speedway, Daytona, New Hampshire
Int. Speedway, and Homestead in the US all have a variation on this theme.
New Hampshire and Homestead both have infields (in the case of Loudon, it
is rather small) that can be used. Not sure if Homestead's 2.21 mile
road course has been used, but Loudon often mixes sections of the oval and
infield for motorcycle races. Texas World Speedway is a copy of Michigan,
with four degrees more banking; but only about a 1/4 of the oval is used,
the front straight, before the focus shifts to the infield road course a
1.9 mile circuit. Daytona's infield increaces the circuit distance from
2.5 to 3.56 miles. So really, there is no example of the ficticious Monza
oval/road course mix...and probably won't ever be. The way cars are setup
for ovals are just downright scarey when they have to turn right.
__o
_-\<,_ Cosmo Potapoff
On Tue, 04 Mar 1997 15:34:30 GMT, Richard K.B. Martel
>This may seem like a silly question, but what was at the X where the tracks crossed? I'm assuming a tunnel or bridge....It would be silly to have traffic lights there :) As for them using the front straight twice, It might be confusing which way to go at t12, or was there pylons or some other division to the wide track?
>Rick Martel
There is a bridge where the track cross (you can see this on GP2 as
you come down to Variante Ascari) The main straight was divided by
pylons (outer for the road course, inner for the oval - which has
banking steeper than any currently existing American oval)
There are some circuit diagrams (slightly poor quality scans I'm
afraid) on my site at www.feature.demon.co.uk/mosport.htm
Alan Head
Screamer 2 homepages:
http://www.feature.demon.co.uk/games.htm
-----------------------------------------
<monza map snipped>
> This may seem like a silly question, but what was at the X
where the tracks crossed? I'm assuming a tunnel or bridge....It
would be silly to have traffic lights there :) As for them
using the front straight twice, It might be confusing which way
to go at t12, or was there pylons or some other division to the
wide track?
> Rick Martel
The oval had overpasses at the points where it crossed the road
course. The overpasses show in the Microprose F1 games, but
they're not connected to anything.
MW
Loudon has a very small infield (it's primarily a couple of chicanes
to keep the bikes/cars off the entire banking for safety reasons)
The road course is actually mostly in the "outfield" if you will.
(After Nascar turn 2, the wall opens up, and there is a right hander
up the hill, leading to the bowl, a tight left, and a downhill right
back onto NASCAR turn 3 area.
---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus
> Now, AFAIK no race was ever run merging of the two tracks, certainly not a
> Grand Prix. Yes, the two shared the front straight but they were seperate
> tracks. The oval was used twice for two races in the 50s, staged as a
> meeting of the two worlds (United States and Europe) with the American
> drivers running circles around the Europeans (sorry for the pun).
I have an old book (195?) that Farina and Fangio wrote. I was
"techniques de pilotage" (French). With over 200 pages, it shows the
major tracks at this time. 50% of this book is based on the old Monza
track. and YES they're was a race with the oval/road track at the same
time. That's why the front stretch is so wide. It was divided into two
tracks. The F1 didn't used it, but I think the "mil miles of Monza"
(French for 1000 miles race) was raced on the two tracks. The book even
has some photos with the division of the track after the pits!
Homestead is used by Formula Atlantic (little league of CART) with the
infield and the oval track. Thanks a lot,
Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy in rec.autos.simulators)
[===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve,
| ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is
|!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le
|o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
[--I--]
v
Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand"
Nien Numb in the National Star Wars League(X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter league)
http://www.dakotacom.net/~strange/
http://www.geocities.com/area51/vault/2804/index.html
http://www.starwars.com/
Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition,N2,Gp2,Icr2.How can my life be better?
May the force be with you, always!!
Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people)
Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)
Jim,
Speaking of the old 1967 sim, is Watkins Glen included in the game ????
Because before the track was constructed, they're was a race (F1?) held
in Watkins Glen but in the streets of the town. I'm not sure if in 1967
the actual track (without the chicane) existed. IMHO it would be cool
to have the old Watkins Glen track in the streets. And also, is there a
place on www.papy.com were we can see the actual job of everybody at
papyrus. Don't stop your great job Jim,
Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy in rec.autos.simulators)
[===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve,
| ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is
|!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le
|o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
[--I--]
v
Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand"
Nien Numb in the National Star Wars League(X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter league)
http://www.dakotacom.net/~strange/
http://www.geocities.com/area51/vault/2804/index.html
http://www.starwars.com/
Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition,N2,Gp2,Icr2.How can my life be better?
May the force be with you, always!!
Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people)
Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)
>Speaking of the old 1967 sim, is Watkins Glen included in the game ????
If we can get the licensing squared away, yes...
Indeed that would be cool; I honestly do not know what the status of
our licensing efforts are there. I do know that the town wasn't very
big on the part time track, as a few drivers were killed there...
No; can you imagine how many headhunters would be calling us then? I
mean, our phones are already ringing regularly with recruiters trying
to hire away talent...
---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus
> Jim,
> Speaking of the old 1967 sim, is Watkins Glen included in the game ????
> Because before the track was constructed, they're was a race (F1?) held
> in Watkins Glen but in the streets of the town. I'm not sure if in 1967
> the actual track (without the chicane) existed.
The early races were indeed run through town, on a 6.6 mile layout; The
course included asphalt, dirt and cement surfaces! This circuit was no
longer used as of 1953, when promoters used a temporary layout for three
years. The existing track was built in 1956 in its original
configuration. The track closed in bankruptcy in 1981, but was reopened
in 1984, and now uses a slightly different configuration (the inner
loop, and a couple of modifications to turns).
God Bless,
Steve


































