For those that want Daytona

My new track, or upgrade for that fact is nearing completion. You can see screen shots of it on the NASCAR Networks message board. Look at the message entitled Daytona screen shots posted by myself. The tracks is looking excellent, even a lake in the infield. The url is http://www.nascarnet.com/ to the message board once there. After you check them out please post a message letting me know how it looks so far. I hope to post the track by Friday. Alex Santantonio The NASCAR Network http://www.nascarnet.com Alex's NASCAR Pit Shop http://www.nascarnet.com/pitshop

I'm afraid I still don't see the point. Sure we all want to race at Daytona, but not as a conversion of Talladega and especially not for N1. BTW, just a little constructive criticism from a web pimp: for the love of God kill the navigation window on the nascarnet site. --

On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:46:53 -0500, Alex Santantonio

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>My new track, or upgrade for that fact is nearing completion. You can >see screen shots of it on the NASCAR Networks message board. Look at >the message entitled Daytona screen shots posted by myself. The tracks >is looking excellent, even a lake in the infield. The url is >http://www.nascarnet.com/ Go to the message board once there. After >you check them out please post a message letting me know how it looks so >far. I hope to post the track by Friday. >Alex Santantonio >The NASCAR Network >http://www.nascarnet.com >Alex's NASCAR Pit Shop >http://www.nascarnet.com/pitshop

Don't pay any attention to those PAPY "Wannabes" at least sombody is doing something to upgrade our investment. Yeah ALEX !!!! Now you can hear from all those defenders of " Lets not pick on my personal friend - JIM CLUB" who figure that JIM can't answer his own e-mail. They won't want a new track ,,,,, NO WAY ..... Well maybe if they try it and don't tell Jim they can still be his friend.... Yeah that's it!!!!! :)--

Well thats good byt NASCAR2 is what we are playing because it is a better game. Try to do a track for N2 and forget the one for N1.

Yeah Alex!!! Now Daytona will stop standing in the way of the Daytona projects, the first of being created in The Pits. And also, I'd like a ICR2 version (tragic track for them), and a code that lets you use the road course. Christopher http://members.aol.com/ROSCS P.S. At least that USA Speedway won't have to worry about faking Daytona.

You say on the message board that the screen shots are "simply to show what is possible", and "HEAR THAT DAYTONA, I'M NOT RELEASING IT!!!!!!!!" Then you say you hope to release it by Friday (which is long gone now, but....). What gives? The first statement makes much more since, with the potential copyright infringments involved with recreating Daytona without permission. Please tell me I'm wrong and that Sega and Daytona have declined to pursue legal action if such a track is released. On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:46:53 -0500, Alex Santantonio

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>My new track, or upgrade for that fact is nearing completion. You can >see screen shots of it on the NASCAR Networks message board. Look at >the message entitled Daytona screen shots posted by myself. The tracks >is looking excellent, even a lake in the infield. The url is >http://www.nascarnet.com/ Go to the message board once there. After >you check them out please post a message letting me know how it looks so >far. I hope to post the track by Friday. >Alex Santantonio >The NASCAR Network >http://www.nascarnet.com >Alex's NASCAR Pit Shop >http://www.nascarnet.com/pitshop

Kyle Langston ____________________________________________ IBM #72 Ford Thunderbird - Hurricane Racing http://www.traction.git.net/hurricane/ NASS Series 1997 Winsten Cup Division

>Please tell me I'm wrong and that Sega and Daytona have declined to >pursue legal action if such a track is released. Well if they have then it's news to me. However, Papyrus may not be so forgiving. The problem The Pits have with any patches we release is that we cannot distribute any of the original code. Therefore, if your 'Daytona' has any of the original files in it then your distributing original code and therefore breaking copyright. The reason it takes me so long to write patches is that I have to write routines to extract the files, patch them and put it all together again. Just be careful what your doing. It's not just Daytona you have to worry about. And like I've said till I'm blue in the face - if ISC pulls the rug on any hopes of an official Daytona because of the hacks, you've only got yorselves to bame. Cheers Jed The Pits - http://www.thepits.demon.co.uk

Actually Each part of the track MUST be copyrighted individually to stop us from using them. If someone can, check to see if the tracks are copyrighted as a whole. If SO, individual components CAN legally be used, especially in altered format. Check it out.

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>>Please tell me I'm wrong and that Sega and Daytona have declined to >>pursue legal action if such a track is released. >Well if they have then it's news to me. However, Papyrus may not be so >forgiving. >The problem The Pits have with any patches we release is that we >cannot distribute any of the original code. Therefore, if your >'Daytona' has any of the original files in it then your distributing >original code and therefore breaking copyright. >The reason it takes me so long to write patches is that I have to >write routines to extract the files, patch them and put it all >together again. >Just be careful what your doing. It's not just Daytona you have to >worry about. >And like I've said till I'm blue in the face - if ISC pulls the rug on >any hopes of an official Daytona because of the hacks, you've >only got yorselves to bame. >Cheers >Jed >The Pits - http://www.thepits.demon.co.uk

Mike Frazer #11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN Prime Time Motorsports

>Actually >Each part of the track MUST be copyrighted individually to stop us >from using them. If someone can, check to see if the tracks are >copyrighted as a whole. If SO, individual components CAN legally be >used, especially in altered format. Check it out. Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion of "Amateur UseNet Lawyer"...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC485D.95DEDB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nice to see your still there Jed ------=_NextPart_000_01BC485D.95DEDB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#E8E8E8"><p><font size=3D2 = color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial Narrow">nice to see your still there = Jed<br><br><br></p> </font></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BC485D.95DEDB60--

Uh...I think not Mike...Each part of the track?...You mean like a plain-concrete wall, or a dirty piece of asphalt?...Anything else would constitute copyright infringment, if it even remotely resembled the track...It's certainly a grey-area, but I don't have the money for the lawyers...do you? ;) Marc

(SimRacing) Date: 14 Apr 1997 11:02:12 GMT Message-ID: stop us > from using them. If someone can, check to see if the tracks are used, especially in altered format. Check it out. Uh...I think not Mike...Each part of the track?...You mean like a plain-concrete wall, or a dirty piece of asphalt?...Anything else would constitute copyright infringment, if it even remotely resembled the track...It's certainly a grey-area, but I don't have the money for the lawyers...do you? ;) Marc < Depends on what you mean by 'remotely' resembled the track. Some of the tracks 'remotely' resemble each other. Without specific signs or some sort of 'smoking gun' like that I doubt there would be anything the suits could do about it. The only real solution to all this is for $ierra to release an editor to allow people to design their own tracks and also issue a warning about distributing unauthorized replicas of the tracks. The important thing is the ability to race on a track designed/banked/etc. like the real thing. The obvious workaround to these legal problems would be to have generic tracks with cheesy (un-real) looking walls, etc. but to have the actual driving characteristics. I mean can you really see their lawyers saying "But your honor, their track is banked just like ours!! This is a violation of our rights." I just don't see that happening. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Jason Nichols Commissioner SportSim Football League http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

Is it not true that Papyrus distributed Taladega as freeware in the demo? Is it also true that This can be reposted? If this is the case then in fact we could alter this tracks and redistribute as we want, correct? Just wondering.

Okay, what I MEANT was this: You could take a building or a set of stands and alter the textures. Say the building going into 1 at Bristol...without textures, it is a box. No one can copyright a box. With altered textures, there is absolutely NO resemblance even though you used the framework. Therefore, the new product cannot be considered a copyright infringement. As for TRACKS, if you alter the shape, go for it because once AGAIN you cant copyright a SHAPE. If you were to use the track in the exact shape it is in now (as is the case for the current N1 Las Vegas, Daytona, etc...since no one has figured out how to alter this yet) you WOULD be infringing. But all I was saying is that if you want to get into the technicalities of it all, they cant claim copyright infringement if they have a copyright only onthe track as a whole, and not on the individual components. And as long as you give credit to any sponsors on the track in a piece of documentation, I doubt they would sue you for the free advertising you have given them. Mike Frazer

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>(SimRacing) Date: 14 Apr 1997 11:02:12 GMT Message-ID: >> Actually > > Each part of the track MUST be copyrighted individually to >stop us > from using them. If someone can, check to see if the tracks are >> copyrighted as a whole. If SO, individual components CAN legally be > >used, especially in altered format. Check it out. >Uh...I think not Mike...Each part of the track?...You mean like a >plain-concrete wall, or a dirty piece of asphalt?...Anything else would >constitute copyright infringment, if it even remotely resembled the >track...It's certainly a grey-area, but I don't have the money for the >lawyers...do you? ;) > Marc < >Depends on what you mean by 'remotely' resembled the track. Some of the >tracks 'remotely' resemble each other. Without specific signs or some >sort of 'smoking gun' like that I doubt there would be anything the suits >could do about it. >The only real solution to all this is for $ierra to release an editor to >allow people to design their own tracks and also issue a warning about >distributing unauthorized replicas of the tracks. The important thing is >the ability to race on a track designed/banked/etc. like the real thing. >The obvious workaround to these legal problems would be to have generic >tracks with cheesy (un-real) looking walls, etc. but to have the actual >driving characteristics. I mean can you really see their lawyers saying >"But your honor, their track is banked just like ours!! This is a >violation of our rights." I just don't see that happening. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----------------------- >Jason Nichols >Commissioner >SportSim Football League >http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------

Mike Frazer #11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN Prime Time Motorsports

>Okay, what I MEANT was this: You could take a building or a set of >stands and alter the textures. Say the building going into 1 at >Bristol...without textures, it is a box. No one can copyright a box. Strictly speaking, no one can copyright the idea of a box; however, if my expression of the box idea is somehow unique and I can claim that that uniqueness is in any way important, I can copyright the particular expression of a box. (No one can copyright the idea of a novel, but I can copyright my particular expression of a novel. Same for songs, plays, paintings, computer games, etc.) If the framework is unique somehow, I'll bet it's copyrightable. That remains to be seen; I disagree with your argument so far. (See above; that holds for SHAPE to as far as I can tell.) This is a dangerous assumption to make, and I would encourage anyone who has any money to their name who is considering this to check with a competent intellectual property lawyer before assuming that Mike is correct here. (Because I honestly believe he's not.) You haven't dealt with the sponsors. Papyrus has run into problems in their past with sponsors. The sponsors could choose to view it as free advertising, but most don't. Even if they viewed it as free advertising, they would probably compel you to sign a license with them. ---Jim Sokoloff PS: I'm not trying to be the rain on peoples' parade, but the legal opinions that get presented here, while tempting are generally simply not true.

O.K, let see if I can help put this puppy to bed. My answers here relate directly to the period in middle 1996 when myself, Jan Kohl along with Ed Martin and Andrew Levasque of Papyrus discussed this problem with regards to our Daytona track. I consulted with two lawyers so if anything is wrong then I've been lied to. Kapeesh? Right and wrong. You can't copyright a basic geometric shape and putting a completely different texture on it is O.K. However, remember that a track DAT file is made up of several other files, each with their own format. If you were to take that internal file (say grand5.3do) and include it withing your own re-compiled DAT file then you have included a piece of original Papyrus code. It's going to be the same size, same name and have exactly the same byte-by-byte structure as the original. Therefore your distributing the original code with your track and therefore breaking copyright. When you copyright a program, game or whatever form of computer program, it usuall covers likeness, spedific files and yes - the byte by byte code. True, but you can copyright a likeness. What do you mean no-ones worked out to alter the shape yet? It can be done but it takes so much ***y work that it takes forever. Consider this, I know for a fact from Rick G (gawd bless 'im) that some of work for the tracks was done in 3D studio and then put through and internal Papyrus program to convert it (the 3DS format is very similar to 3DO). Now, it takes them around 2 man months to develop a track so how long do you think it takes somebody like Gerhard Lingenberg or myself to decode the file format and hex edit it to alter a single polygon correctly? It can be done, it just takes ages. And I've seen The Glen without a chicane... Again, this comes down to my point earlier. When Papyrus copyrights a program it covers all the code - even the sub files formats of the DAT to the individiual byte patterns in them. Change one byte and yes technically its different, but by a tiny percentage. Change a lot and you will probably get away with it - it's a known file format but the data in it is mostly yours. Ahh but the problem with that is association. Yes it's free advertising but they may not want their product or services associated with you or your own products. I doubt a religious book shop would want to have it's corporate id tatooed on the thigh of a working lap dancer from Vegas. Likewise, some official series or team sponsors may want to be seen in a race enviroment but not in your particularly contraversial new track for ICR2. And yes the lap dancer was probably a bad example.... It's late... No, you can't copyright stuff like that, but as I explained earlier, if you use the original asphalt texture file in a byte perfect manner then you have broken copyright because the code is copyrighted. As an example, if I took the original Talladega track from N1 and simply altered the texture on the walls to say Daytona then I wouldn't really be breaking copyright as apart from that it's still Talladega. However, if you start shifting similar shaped building into certain positions, add a lake, some hills and new textures then your track takes on the likeness of Daytona even if it is not 100% accurate. Thats were the problem comes it. When does a track start becoming a likeness? This is the problem a lot of track editors are finding when trying to make a track accurate without breaking the law. I can agree with this point however there are some technical issues that need to be addressed. Firstly the 3DO format which defines the shape of the track is very complex. Unlike the track format for NFS, it's not that simple to alter. You've got considerations like Z-Order, Z-Clipping, closing gaps between polygons, etc. I think that possible the only, most practical and most easy track editor that Papyrus to relase would be similar to the track editor for NFS. Firstly, you would need to pick an original track to use for the alteration. That would be on your hard disk and in thoery, by purchasing the product you bought the right to use the data in your own home. The editor wouldn't let you make the track any longer or shorter, but like the NFS editor you could select small sections of its length and bend them, raise them and back them. O.K you may need to add functionallity to move the exisiting buildings for that track so that they are either closer or off the track but thats about all. IF (and it's a really big if) Papyrus/Sierra thought about it, writing this sort of application would probably take less time than a new racing sim and could be retailed at around the 20 quid mark. If they sold it as a program for used by skill/advanced users and gave us a modicum of documentation, I'm sure groups of us could work the rest of it out ourselves. Lastly, if this utility was released, there are people like myself who can create and import new buildings and scenery ourselves. I'd also gladly release my DAT editing modules into the Public Domain so that others would be able to take their modified tracks, make patch files and distribute them so that others could convert the tracks without the creator having to distribute any original code. I think a tool like this if released would create a sort of Quake like scenario where the info is there and the users work together to enhance their investment. I don't see why Papy can't release some info on their file formats though. Telling us how a 3DO file is structured won't hurt them that much... I made a lot of tracks for NFS and got a ton of positive feedback. Being and-ex racer myself I know what makes a good circuit and thats what I did with my tracks. Yes, there were other tracks but people tended to make ones with huge long straights so you could run flat out. True. As an end to this rather long posting, a thought. For all of those editing track and those wanting them - it's o.k tarting up Talladega to look like Daytona but to drive, it's the same track, same length, same corners and same driving. The only difference if the scenery and if your looking at that, then you shouldn't be on the track. I welome sensible comments on the above posting and I'm happy to discuss points, but start flaming me or asking me for tracks then the only reply you'll get is a UUencoded copy of a LINUX Slackware distibution. Cheers Jed The Pits - http://www.thepits.demon.co.uk

That last line was only meant as a joke... :) Amazing, I actually got a response on a post. Holy cow, and it was from Jim too! Jim, its a cryin shame that you are leaving Papyrus. That has been said many times. They make great racing sims and I will continue to buy em all. BTW, I have no plans to make my own tracks from existing components. You see, I know NOTHING about hex editing or watever it takes. But if someone DOES want to look into this, lemme know what happens. I would be just as interested in knowing. This was just my THOUGHT based on logic and inteligent thinking. I hope I am RIGHT of course, but if not it wouldnt surprise me. Mike Frazer

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>>Okay, what I MEANT was this: You could take a building or a set of >>stands and alter the textures. Say the building going into 1 at >>Bristol...without textures, it is a box. No one can copyright a box. >Strictly speaking, no one can copyright the idea of a box; however, if >my expression of the box idea is somehow unique and I can claim that >that uniqueness is in any way important, I can copyright the >particular expression of a box. (No one can copyright the idea of a >novel, but I can copyright my particular expression of a novel. Same >for songs, plays, paintings, computer games, etc.) >>With altered textures, there is absolutely NO resemblance even though >>you used the framework. >If the framework is unique somehow, I'll bet it's copyrightable. >> Therefore, the new product cannot be >>considered a copyright infringement. >That remains to be seen; I disagree with your argument so far. >> As for TRACKS, if you alter the >>shape, go for it because once AGAIN you cant copyright a SHAPE. >(See above; that holds for SHAPE to as far as I can tell.) >> If >>you were to use the track in the exact shape it is in now (as is the >>case for the current N1 Las Vegas, Daytona, etc...since no one has >>figured out how to alter this yet) you WOULD be infringing. But all I >>was saying is that if you want to get into the technicalities of it >>all, they cant claim copyright infringement if they have a copyright >>only onthe track as a whole, and not on the individual components. >This is a dangerous assumption to make, and I would encourage anyone >who has any money to their name who is considering this to check with >a competent intellectual property lawyer before assuming that Mike is >correct here. (Because I honestly believe he's not.) >>And as long as you give credit to any sponsors on the track in a piece >>of documentation, I doubt they would sue you for the free advertising >>you have given them. >You haven't dealt with the sponsors. Papyrus has run into problems in >their past with sponsors. The sponsors could choose to view it as free >advertising, but most don't. Even if they viewed it as free >advertising, they would probably compel you to sign a license with >them. >---Jim Sokoloff >PS: I'm not trying to be the rain on peoples' parade, but the legal >opinions that get presented here, while tempting are generally simply >not true.

Mike Frazer #11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN Prime Time Motorsports

A demo is not freeware. It's basically a handicapped version of a product designed to give you a taste of what to expect. I don't know beans about the deal between Papyrus and the owners of Talladega, but I would guess their aggreement must have included some distribution rights. Papyrus may have the right to distribute track(s) in their demos, but this doesn't give someone else the right to alter (and then redistribute) the software in any form. Best Regards, Marc Marc 'Wannabealawyer' Nelson

Since this won't end.... Going back to something I stated months ago. Give us a unnamed track that has charateristics like Daytona but don't label it as such. Call it Ed's Backyard Track. Give us the user the ability to edit textures, place buildings and advertisments where we like. This should do it all legally. Again I use NBA console games as an example because it seems to fit perfectly. Those programs have a player that looks and plays like Barkely or Jordan but named Joe Smith with a ficticous number. The program then allows the user to modify name and number of any player. Before long the user has created in the privacy of there own house Barkley and Jordan. All legal or atleast there is not 1 case of some user getting sued yet over this. You would think Papy could do this same type of thing as well. If they can't do even this then there is some serious red tape in the way and there is nothing we can do about it and should write it off as a loss. Q.B.M.

Yep.

: Is it not true that Papyrus distributed Taladega as freeware in the : demo? Is it also true that This can be reposted? If this is the case : then in fact we could alter this tracks and redistribute as we want, : correct? Just wondering. Just because files were distributed with a demo does not "undo" the copyright laws, the licensing agreements, or trademark laws. The demo can be redistributed as long as none of the files are missing or have been altered. For Papyrus to allow anything different could void their copyright and trademark rights. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

legalities from someone who's been there. From: ccorpora Since this won't end.... Going back to something I stated months ago. Give us a unnamed track that has charateristics like Daytona but don't label it as such. Call it Ed's Backyard Track. Give us the user the ability to edit textures, place buildings and advertisments where we like. This should do it all legally. Again I use NBA console games as an example because it seems to fit perfectly. Those programs have a player that looks and plays like Barkely or Jordan but named Joe Smith with a ficticous number. The program then allows the user to modify name and number of any player. Before long the user has created in the privacy of there own house Barkley and Jordan. All legal or atleast there is not 1 case of some user getting sued yet over this. You would think Papy could do this same type of thing as well. If they can't do even this then there is some serious red tape in the way and there is nothing we can do about it and should write it off as a loss. Q.B.M. < Or let the hackers take over!!!!!!!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Jason Nichols Commissioner SportSim Football League http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

Feature Challenged <sniff>

> > A demo is not freeware. It's basically a handicapped version of a > > product designed to give you a taste of what to expect. > that's featurly impaired. :) and usually BUG filled. =8>]

that's featurly impaired. :)

It's sad that The Pits's Daytona has faded away, but dissapointing is the fact that Gerhard Lingenberg, who created the converters and also helped with the Daytona Project, has dissapeared from all contact with us r.a.s. simracing fans. I would like to see him come back soon, I would want to see an update of the track converter that adds real graphics, and logos, also a converter of the labels labeling "NASCAR Racing Series" or "IndyCar" for example, to "Winston Cup Series" or "CART" respectively. He is just one of the many losses in the simracing community, with the Papy people who moved on. But there's a ray of hope, for Jed just posted here a few days ago, and undoubtedly that is better, for everyone at the Pits has know the story of how he left and how the British server went down. Well, please reply via email. Christopher http://members.aol.com/ROSCS ---------------------------------------------------- Dale Earnhardt: "Hey Ron...It's Earnhardt...your wife called...said sumpn' 'bout an anneversary..." Ron Hornaday "Aww..."(slamms on brakes)

: Since this won't end.... : Going back to something I stated months ago. : Give us a unnamed track that has charateristics like Daytona but don't label : it as such. Call it Ed's Backyard Track. : Give us the user the ability to edit textures, place buildings and : advertisments where we like. : This should do it all legally. <snip> : do this same type of thing as well. If they can't do even this then there is : some serious red tape in the way and there is nothing we can do about it and : should write it off as a loss. There are at least 2 things at play here. Papyrus, must keep it's nose clean and not get corporate owners' noses out of shape. If they took your path, before long they would not be able to get the support they need to develope future "realistic" race sims. I hightly doubt that NASCAR would have wished to work as closely with Papyrus on the NRO project had their sims been full of "dodgey" tracks. For some unknown reason (not really -- but I am not going to bore everybody) corporate companies hold "sacred" their property and do not look kindly on others whose efforts "may" appear to devalue said property. Secondly, Sega could probably take Papyrus to court and sue their butts if Papy released a Daytona-look-alike. They may not win, but rest assured that Sega would take action and Papyrus/Sierra would be throwing big bucks to lawyers instead of paying programmers to code race sims. Because of this, the lawyers that Papyrus/Sierra pay already have advised them against such efforts, and Papyrus/Sierra has taken this advice. Now don't get me wrong, I sure wished it wasn't so! Just because that's the way life works, doesn't make it "right". -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<snip excellent "tort" on copyright> : Ahh but the problem with that is association. Yes it's free : advertising but they may not want their product or services associated : with you or your own products. : I doubt a religious book shop would want to have it's corporate id : tatooed on the thigh of a working lap dancer from Vegas. Likewise, : some official series or team sponsors may want to be seen in a race : enviroment but not in your particularly contraversial new track for : ICR2. : And yes the lap dancer was probably a bad example.... It's late... Jed, nope! Excellent analogy! Made reading the whole treatise worthwhile. As an "ole hippy", I would love to not have the world so wrapped up in this "legal ownership -- make lawyers rich" crap. But, since I'm an "old" hippy, I survived long enough to understand the realities of life, society, and culture. Maybe some day, these young pups will wake up and understand, until then, thanks for the treatise. <more snipped> -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

If he left because of all the LAMWRS out there I can nderstand WHY... More complaining HERE than at my school because of bad grades...If ***s are complaining and using "vulgar" language this much over games, I can tell yall need to get lives. The Freshmen at school are more mature (this isnt a flame to whoever wrote this, but I was waiting for a chance to say something...) Mike Frazer #11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN Prime Time Motorsports

haha!! > > > A demo is not freeware. It's basically a handicapped version of a > > > product designed to give you a taste of what to expect. > > that's featurly impaired. :) > and usually BUG filled. =8>]

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> Going back to something I stated months ago. > Give us a unnamed track that has charateristics like Daytona but don't > label it as such. Call it Ed's Backyard Track. > Give us the user the ability to edit textures, place buildings and > advertisments where we like. > This should do it all legally. > Again I use NBA console games as an example because it seems to fit > perfectly. Those programs have a player that looks and plays like Barkely > or Jordan but named Joe Smith with a ficticous number. The program then > allows the user to modify name and number of any player. Before long the > user has created in the privacy of there own house Barkley and Jordan. > All legal or atleast there is not 1 case of some user getting sued yet > over this. You would think Papy could do this same type of thing as well. > If they can't do even this then there is some serious red tape in the way > and there is nothing we can do about it and should write it off as a > loss.

I have an old game on the NES (Roger Clemens MVP baseball). Instead of, per exemple Ken Griffey jr, it was (AFAIK), Ken Griffin jr. Or Cecil Fielder was named Cicel Feilder. So why not the Tonaday track? Or the anotayd track? other name's ?? :) Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy in rec.autos.simulators) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =ymenard now!!! SPEED- http://www.nascarnet.com/~speed [===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve, | ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is |!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le |o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. [--I--] v Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand" May the force be with you, always!! Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people) Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)

Pig Latin: Aytona-day...Oppish: Dop A Yop Top O Nop A... Or, as we rednecks say..."Daytoner Innernashnal speedway" Mike Frazer

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>> Going back to something I stated months ago. >> Give us a unnamed track that has charateristics like Daytona but don't >> label it as such. Call it Ed's Backyard Track. >> Give us the user the ability to edit textures, place buildings and >> advertisments where we like. >> This should do it all legally. >> Again I use NBA console games as an example because it seems to fit >> perfectly. Those programs have a player that looks and plays like Barkely >> or Jordan but named Joe Smith with a ficticous number. The program then >> allows the user to modify name and number of any player. Before long the >> user has created in the privacy of there own house Barkley and Jordan. >> All legal or atleast there is not 1 case of some user getting sued yet >> over this. You would think Papy could do this same type of thing as well. >> If they can't do even this then there is some serious red tape in the way >> and there is nothing we can do about it and should write it off as a >> loss. >I have an old game on the NES (Roger Clemens MVP baseball). Instead of, >per exemple Ken Griffey jr, it was (AFAIK), Ken Griffin jr. Or Cecil >Fielder was named Cicel Feilder. So why not the Tonaday track? Or the >anotayd track? other name's ?? :) >Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy in rec.autos.simulators) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =ymenard now!!! >SPEED- http://www.nascarnet.com/~speed > [===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve, > | ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is > |!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le > |o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. > [--I--] > v >Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand" >May the force be with you, always!! >Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people) >Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)

Mike Frazer #11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN Prime Time Motorsports

>I have an old game on the NES (Roger Clemens MVP baseball). Instead of, >per exemple Ken Griffey jr, it was (AFAIK), Ken Griffin jr. Or Cecil >Fielder was named Cicel Feilder. So why not the Tonaday track? Or the >anotayd track? other name's ?? :) Theres also the issue of how likely are the official owners likely to look out for it. As for people in games, you can't really say a small sprite or 3D model of them is accurate enough to be called a likeness. There are loads of people that look like each other and they don't get sued. I doubt anyones going to sue somebody for looking like the guy from Quake! However, with a Daytona track to be worthwhile it's got be be pretty close to the tracks shape. And as we're talking about somethings that in scale is pretty large and has a lot of identifying features, its going to be easier for the legal beagles to say 'Hey, thats a likeness'. If you make a equilateral triangle shaped track and called it 'Deytoni' I doubt ISC would give a toss and I doubt anyone would download it as a replacement for Daytona. Unfortunately it's got to look like Daytona and thats were problems occur. Cheers Jed The Pits - http://www.thepits.demon.co.uk

(Jed) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:57:21 GMT Message-ID: >I have an old game on the NES (Roger Clemens MVP baseball). Instead of, >per exemple Ken Griffey jr, it was (AFAIK), Ken Griffin jr. Or Cecil >Fielder was named Cicel Feilder. So why not the Tonaday track? Or the >anotayd track? other name's ?? :) Theres also the issue of how likely are the official owners likely to look out for it. As for people in games, you can't really say a small sprite or 3D model of them is accurate enough to be called a likeness. There are loads of people that look like each other and they don't get sued. I doubt anyones going to sue somebody for looking like the guy from Quake! However, with a Daytona track to be worthwhile it's got be be pretty close to the tracks shape. And as we're talking about somethings that in scale is pretty large and has a lot of identifying features, its going to be easier for the legal beagles to say 'Hey, thats a likeness'. If you make a equilateral triangle shaped track and called it 'Deytoni' I doubt ISC would give a toss and I doubt anyone would download it as a replacement for Daytona. Unfortunately it's got to look like Daytona and thats were problems occur. Cheers Jed The Pits - http://www.thepits.demon.co.uk < OK, let's say I'm a billionare (far from the truth....) and I decide to build a racetrack. You mean to tell me if my track is the same shape as Daytona they would have a legitimate legal gripe??? I find that a little difficult to believe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Jason Nichols Commissioner SportSim Football League http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

Then again, your talking about doing it for real. At the moment, most hacked N1 and ICR2 'Daytonas' are Talladega hacks which:- 1) Have a similar shape 2) Have similar scenery (possibly including Daytona logos/images) 3) Have the 'Daytona' name or something similar. Therefore Daytona/ISC are going to jump on you as they believe that your trying to use their name/intelectural property/likeness/whatever without permission and regardless if your making money or not, they'll only let you release it if you pay them for the license. As as Sega have that you're not going to get it and Daytona/ISC are obliged to help protect Sega's investment by trying to stop any unauthorised use of Daytona or it's likeness. Even if Sega didn't have the license and you did make a Daytona I doubt Daytona/ISC would let it lie. Two things that can happen is that the 'Daytona Brand' (for want of a better phrase) may lose some of it's marketability and therefore it's ability to make money for ISC or the France family. It may sound unfeasable but it does happen, it's sometimes a little hard to grasp if you don't have a marketing background. For examples just look at some of the things that can force share prices up and down on the stock exchange. Secondly, it may affect their future ability to license 'Daytona' for things like games, merchandise, etc. Companies (like Sega or Papyrus for example) who are interested in purchasing an 'exclusive license' for Daytona are going to be put off if they think that Daytona/ISC don't make efforts to keep the license 'exclusive'. That means that the license buyers are going to want their product to be the only one with the 'Daytona' name on it and therefore are going to want Daytona/ISC to stop any unauthorised use - and that includes your crumby little track. As a side issue to this, say Papyrus did have the license to use Daytona and include in one of their sims. If you have made a perfect Daytona track then this will affect sales of Papyrus software. Say Papyrus released 'Daytona Track Pack for Nascar 1' for $15.00 and your was free to download of the net. The chances are most people would rather have your free 99.9% accurate track then fork our the $15.00 for Papyrus's version. Therefore as well as Daytona/ISC after you for un-licensed use, you'd have Papyrus wanting you to stop as it's going to***their sales. So, sadly it all revolves around this global desire to make money. Now, at present nobody has yet got the correct tools or all of the information needed to create a perfect Daytona apart from Papyrus so an official Daytona from Papyrus is going to be more attractive to users than a hacked Talladega (no matter how close it is). Try and understand that in this case Papyrus are not the bad guys in this sorry story. They have been fighting for ages for the license for Daytona but as money talks, they haven't had the cash to make a better bid than Sega. They want to see Daytona in their sims as much as we do. However, every Daytona from us lot that appears on the net chips a little bit off their chances of getting it from Daytona/ISC. When The Pits was about to lauch our Daytona, we got a call from Daytona/ISC and NOT Papyrus. The Licensing Manager of ISC called Jan Kohl and ordered us to halt the release or face action. Read it again - ISC stopped us, not Papyrus. That's how serious ISC are about the Daytona name. O.K, thats the Daytona aspect of the tracks finished with but what about the other tracks that have been made like Texas or Las Vegas? In this instance the action would come from Papyrus unless the coder was very careful. When Papyrus writes a sim, all the code, including the individual files in the DAT's are copyrighted to them. Now, most of the people who have been pulled up by Papyrus have been distributing ZIP's with the entire new track in it including LP files and the DAT. The problem comes in that using another track as the base for your new track is that the shape will be the same (at the moment) and therefore you need the original LP files to make the AI work properly. Secondly, a large percentage of the files inside the track DAT are going to be original from the track you based yours on. Modifying one byte in a file does not constitute it being a different file and likewise with textures. As an example, you can open MS GOLF in Borlands Resource Workshop and change all sorts of things. However, it's still recognisable as MS GOLF and Bill Gates ain't going to be happy if you try and pass it off as your own and distribute it. Now, say you have made a new track from another, the way you can distribute it is to write a program that modifies the original code on the users machine. That way, you don't distribute any original code only a list of modifications and any *completely* new files you have made for it. As far as I can remember, when a person buys a piece of software, the end-user agreement usually in one wording or another lets them use the software and it's code for personal use and modification as long as they don't attempt to distribute it in any form or try and pass it off as their own. Therefore, if they've got the original track on THEIR hard drive you program acts as a tool to let let THEM modify the data themselves. This is where the patches at The Pits get their basis from. We don't ship any original Papyrus code with our patches and they only modify the exisiting data on the users hard disk. This is also why it takes me so damn long to write patches, writing code to do this isn't easy and you need to understand all the Papyrus file formats of which I know about 80%. I think this is why Alex and the others get pulled up by Papyrus - there shipping original code with their tracks. I'm sorry about the length of my posts recently, but I don't see the point of giving brief answers if I can answer something as fully as possible. As I've said before, I've nothing against track editing, I'm all for it but I'm trying to stop people getting themselves into trouble causing undue tension in the sim racing comunity between the user/coders and the software publisher/writers. And if anyone who has a track editing page wants to post this message as a guide to those wanting to edit tracks, feel free. Cheers Jed The Pits - http://www.thepits.demon.co.uk

Very interesting and informative. Thanks. -- Jerry Morelock > (snip) > I'm sorry about the length of my posts recently, but I don't see the > point of giving brief answers if I can answer something as fully as > possible. > As I've said before, I've nothing against track editing, I'm all for > it but I'm trying to stop people getting themselves into trouble > causing undue tension in the sim racing comunity between the > user/coders and the software publisher/writers. > And if anyone who has a track editing page wants to post this message > as a guide to those wanting to edit tracks, feel free. > Cheers > Jed > The Pits - http://www.thepits.demon.co.uk

Hello Jed, this is Alex Santantonio, I believe you know who I am. I have a few questions for you about the tracks. I now understnad what is going on with the reasons why I cannot distribute the full tracks, I was just denying it before. I was wondering though, is what I am doing now okay. I am distributing a dat file, but this dat file is missing key elements which include all original papyrus code that would be included in the dat file. Files such as .src .cam .trk and so on, as well as the two pmp and 3do files that I did not edit. All files that are included in the .dat file are the same by name only, all 3do files have been rearranged, all mips completely redone, and the track .3do file has been changed as well. I know that there has never been a problem with distributing the various cars.dat files on the internet, and if that is not a problem, then why is this. All in all I guess I am saying, if I take steps such as making sure all files I am including have the edited and non original papyrus code, should I be okay? Thank you.

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> Theres also the issue of how likely are the official owners likely to > look out for it. > As for people in games, you can't really say a small sprite or 3D > model of them is accurate enough to be called a likeness. > There are loads of people that look like each other and they don't > get sued. > I doubt anyones going to sue somebody for looking like the guy from > Quake! > However, with a Daytona track to be worthwhile it's got be be pretty > close to the tracks shape. And as we're talking about somethings > that in scale is pretty large and has a lot of identifying features, > its going to be easier for the legal beagles to say 'Hey, thats a > likeness'. > If you make a equilateral triangle shaped track and called it > 'Deytoni' I doubt ISC would give a toss and I doubt anyone would > download it as a replacement for Daytona. > Unfortunately it's got to look like Daytona and thats were problems > occur.

Yes but like many of us the track scenery doesn't change our driving. It's just for our eyes not track time. Because of all the scenery we do slower lap times because of the fps going down. So 90% of REAL sim-racers would want the track even if they were no stands, no infield, etc. Just the track. But the real one. And if there's just the track I think it would be legal. when I say the track it's only walls (with no ads), the track and grass (maybe the pits also). If someone do this is the track illegal???? Thanks a lot, Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy in rec.autos.simulators) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =ymenard now!!! SPEED- http://www.nascarnet.com/~speed [===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve, | ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is |!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le |o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. [--I--] v Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand" May the force be with you, always!! Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people) Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)