###*** N2: Can you believe this...???***###

> Ok, approximately how much are we talkin' here...? >>>I havent gone over a price of $60.00(US) on the ICR2 cars. The palette for N2 however is much harder to work with and sometimes its a "painstakingly" pixel by pixel application, but my price for N2 cars hasnt risen above $80.00(US). It really depends on how long it takes me. I have to "search" the web sometimes for a couple of hours just to get the logos (sponsors) requested. If you gave me a fairly "detailed" description, I could come up with a more acurate price. The bottom line is I work anywhere from 8 to 15 hours on these cars depending on the research and "streamlining" involved. If you could imagine an average $70.00 for 15 hours then you're looking at close to minimum wage. I think that Im very "reasonable" when it comes to my time and ability. The reason is, I like to work on these cars, but not for free. =8>] -DG-<<< This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' dollars....????

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> > Ok, approximately how much are we talkin' here...? > >>>I havent gone over a price of $60.00(US) on the ICR2 cars. The palette for N2 however is much harder to work with and sometimes its a "painstakingly" pixel by pixel application, but my price for N2 cars hasnt risen above $80.00(US). It really depends on how long it takes me. I have to "search" the web sometimes for a couple of hours just to get the logos (sponsors) requested. If you gave me a fairly "detailed" description, I could come up with a more acurate price. The bottom line is I work > research and "streamlining" involved. If you could imagine an average > $70.00 for 15 hours then you're looking at close to minimum wage. I > think that Im very "reasonable" when it comes to my time and ability. > The reason is, I like to work on these cars, but not for free. =8>] > -DG-<<< > This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. > Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' > dollars....????

With all the free cars you can find I don't anyone would pay that much for a N2 car. Thats superspeedway robbery :) -- "To all you villans out there I say, knock off all that evil!" -The Tick The Rusty Wallace Miller Lite stock car, awsome when opened up! GO#2! Mullins Motorsports Inc. http://www.***tron.com/~ddmj

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>> Ok, approximately how much are we talkin' here...? >>>>I havent gone over a price of $60.00(US) on the ICR2 cars. The palette for N2 however is much harder to work with and sometimes its a "painstakingly" pixel by pixel application, but my price for N2 cars hasnt risen above $80.00(US). It really depends on how long it takes me. I have to "search" the web sometimes for a couple of hours just to get the logos (sponsors) requested. If you gave me a fairly "detailed" description, I could come up with a more acurate price. The bottom line is I work anywhere from 8 to 15 hours on these cars depending on the >research and "streamlining" involved. If you could imagine an average >$70.00 for 15 hours then you're looking at close to minimum wage. I >think that Im very "reasonable" when it comes to my time and ability. >The reason is, I like to work on these cars, but not for free. =8>] >-DG-<<< > This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. >Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' >dollars....????

I have no connection to this guy either way, but it's a free market; no one has the right to tell this guy that he IS NOT PERMITTED to charge whatever he wants for his services. (Of course, you being a consumer in a free market are free to not buy the product at the price offered...) Then again, I'd have to help the Devil himself shovel his car out of his parking space before I'd pay for my own car... :-) ---Jim Sokoloff

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>> Ok, approximately how much are we talkin' here...? >>>>I havent gone over a price of $60.00(US) on the ICR2 cars. The palette for N2 however is much harder to work with and sometimes its a "painstakingly" pixel by pixel application, but my price for N2 cars hasnt risen above $80.00(US). It really depends on how long it takes me. I have to "search" the web sometimes for a couple of hours just to get the logos (sponsors) requested. If you gave me a fairly "detailed" description, I could come up with a more acurate price. The bottom line is I work anywhere from 8 to 15 hours on these cars depending on the >research and "streamlining" involved. If you could imagine an average >$70.00 for 15 hours then you're looking at close to minimum wage. I >think that Im very "reasonable" when it comes to my time and ability. >The reason is, I like to work on these cars, but not for free. =8>] >-DG-<<< > This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. >Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' >dollars....????

I can appreciate both your views, but paying up to $ 80.00 for a car to put into a game that only costs $ 40.00 (tops) for is not sound judgement in my opinion. I have no doubt that your efforts are painstaking and quality. -- Take Care, Charlie

<tongue in cheek> If you can afford $80 a car, my expert time surely is worth at least this much. So in case anyone in interested, I've decided to start charging $100/hour for hardware recommendations and general tech support. If you send me an e-mail asking for help, expect a bill to soon follow. Hey, perhaps I can even convince Dave to start charging for our IWCCCARS so we can all be rich. =) </tongue in cheek>* * Note: for the humor impared I've kindly included these slightly non-standard HTML tags. --

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> <tongue in cheek> > If you can afford $80 a car, my expert time surely is worth at least this > much. So in case anyone in interested, I've decided to start charging > $100/hour for hardware recommendations and general tech support. If you > send me an e-mail asking for help, expect a bill to soon follow. Hey, > perhaps I can even convince Dave to start charging for our IWCCCARS so we > can all be rich. =) > </tongue in cheek>* > * Note: for the humor impared I've kindly included these slightly > non-standard HTML tags. > -- > > This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. > >Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' > >dollars....????

For my money <g>, Eric, if anyone could charge, it would be you...you are always there when I need a hand and as Nick said you don't "know me from Adam's off ox" (It a Wonderful Life).......Thanks again.. Lou B. Rustbucket Racing

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> >> Ok, approximately how much are we talkin' here...? > >>>>I havent gone over a price of $60.00(US) on the ICR2 cars. The palette for N2 however is much harder to work with and sometimes its a "painstakingly" pixel by pixel application, but my price for N2 cars hasnt risen above $80.00(US). It really depends on how long it takes me. I have to "search" the web sometimes for a couple of hours just to get the logos (sponsors) requested. If you gave me a fairly "detailed" description, I could come up with a more acurate price. The bottom line is I wor > >research and "streamlining" involved. If you could imagine an average > >$70.00 for 15 hours then you're looking at close to minimum wage. I > >think that Im very "reasonable" when it comes to my time and ability. > >The reason is, I like to work on these cars, but not for free. =8>] > >-DG-<<< > > This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. > >Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' > >dollars....???? > I can appreciate both your views, but paying up to $ 80.00 for a car > to put into a game that only costs $ 40.00 (tops) for is not sound > judgement in my opinion. I have no doubt that your efforts are > painstaking and quality. > -- > Take Care, Charlie

*** Moan Well just to let you know I do this for free, not only do I do it for free, I pay to do it. I have my own domain and stuff amd do it cause I enjoy it. You say the palette is harder to work with? well, I mad the palette fix for the game, it is not hard, it too me two weeks to figure it out, but I'm not asking for payment. Also I have spent several months on tracks and that is for free too. So unless you aare putting real body panels on a computer car, do not charge, you will not sell anything

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>Ok, approximately how much are we talkin' here...? >>I havent gone over a price of $60.00(US) on the ICR2 cars. The palette for N2 however is much harder to work >>with and sometimes its a "painstakingly" pixel by pixel application, but my price for N2 cars hasnt risen >>above $80.00(US). It really depends on how long it takes me. I have to "search" the web sometimes for a >>couple of hours just to get the logos (sponsors) requested. If you gave me a fairly "detailed" description, I >>could come up with a more acurate price. The bottom line is I w >>research and "streamlining" involved. If you could imagine an average >>$70.00 for 15 hours then you're looking at close to minimum wage. I >>think that Im very "reasonable" when it comes to my time and ability. >>The reason is, I like to work on these cars, but not for free. =8>] >> -DG- >This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. >Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' >dollars....????

Well first of all Jimmy "I'll take all you can Gimme" McKinley, I didn't "spam" anyone with my "BodyGlove/Blaupunkt ICR2 design. I posted it on a International "simulator, bianary newsgroup" for the taking. Second of all I had a nothing but positive response and alot of people are racing that design as we speak. I "gave" it away at NO charge because I had created it for myself and offered it to the not so "artistic" that wanted to drive something besides the default car. Thirdly, you asked for someone to "paint" a custom car for your "sweetheart". I offered my services to you for a very reasonable price. Lets see, what do you for a living and do you do it for free?! I dont think so! Or maybe you do, the way you *** over 80 dollars for around 10 hours of work that takes a little more than average skill. It might be that you're "low budget" and dont have a job! Thats what it sounds like with your "immature" uproar. If you can find the same "quality" for FREE, more power to ya'! -DG-

> Well just to let you know I do this for free, not only do I do it for > free, I pay to do it. Sounds cool, maybe you can come over and cut my grass, take out my trash and buy the equipment needed to do. =8>] Nah, 2 weeks doesnt sound that hard to figure somethin' out. I had 3DStudio mastered in 2 weeks. Well obviously your not going to sell anything if you GIVE it away! BTW, Ive "sold" 3 cars already (2)ICR2 and (1)N2 in the past year and have made a little over $200(US) dollars, so to make a statment like "do not charge, you will not sell anything" is only an example of why your giving your time and effort away. Of course we all cant be smart enough to actually "charge" total strangers on vast continents on the other end of a modem for our time and skill that say "Hay, somebody paint a car for my girlfriend!" Jeez, some people -DG-

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> <tongue in cheek> > If you can afford $80 a car, my expert time surely is worth at least this > much. So in case anyone in interested, I've decided to start charging > $100/hour for hardware recommendations and general tech support. If you > send me an e-mail asking for help, expect a bill to soon follow. Hey, > perhaps I can even convince Dave to start charging for our IWCCCARS so we > can all be rich. =) > </tongue in cheek>* > * Note: for the humor impared I've kindly included these slightly > non-standard HTML tags. > -- > > This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. > >Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' > >dollars....????

Eric, long time - no hear from!! Where ya been? I ask more but I can't afford your rates! :-) -- John Parker "Bogart" on Hawaii Links LS Tour Member #475 x

You DIDN'T spam us...???? What the heck do you call about 80-100 posts of the same GOSH-DARN car...????? You wanna know why you had such a great response..??? BECAUSE YOU POSTED IT FOR FREEEE!!! Maybe if there was a way you could find out who all downloaded your car(s), then you truly would have made some money! You could have billed ALL of them for d/l'ing your "$80 design"!!! No, it's not my girlfriend...IT'S MY WIFE!! Hmmmm...$80 for 10 hours...hardly sounds like minimum wage to me... Is this a hobby (painting cars), or IS IT YOUR JOB???? Does the IRS know about your little "on-the-side" income...???? 3 cars in two years...??? I'd hardly call that "demand".... Yeah...I have a job...FIGHTIN' FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE UNITED STATES, IN THE NAVY!!! And, yes, I have found people that can paint cars for free, and are willing to offer them as such!! They a PRETTY DAMN GOOD TOO!! If you noticed, there, "Mr. Graphics Illustrator" sir, the "Blaupunkt" on the right-hand side of your N2 car is backwards...

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> <tongue in cheek> > If you can afford $80 a car, my expert time surely is worth at least this > much. So in case anyone in interested, I've decided to start charging > $100/hour for hardware recommendations and general tech support. If you > send me an e-mail asking for help, expect a bill to soon follow. Hey, > perhaps I can even convince Dave to start charging for our IWCCCARS so we > can all be rich. =) > </tongue in cheek>* > * Note: for the humor impared I've kindly included these slightly > non-standard HTML tags. > --

Hiya' Eric, I am very grateful for what you've done for "free" in the past along with all the thanks from the other guys. You just tell me when your ready to start painting FREE "custom" cars for every Tom,***, and Harry that wonders into this newsgroup and Ill send some orders your way. I think anyone with a "half a brain" can see my point. BTW, how are those '97s comin'?!! If you need any templates let me know! I'll even give 'em to ya for FREE! =8>] -DG-

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>> <tongue in cheek> >> If you can afford $80 a car, my expert time surely is worth at least this >> much. So in case anyone in interested, I've decided to start charging >> $100/hour for hardware recommendations and general tech support. If you >> send me an e-mail asking for help, expect a bill to soon follow. Hey, >> perhaps I can even convince Dave to start charging for our IWCCCARS so we >> can all be rich. =) >> </tongue in cheek>* >> * Note: for the humor impared I've kindly included these slightly >> non-standard HTML tags.

LOL! I like those new HTML tags, Eric. FWIW, I'm with Jim on this one. If the guy wants to charge, let him charge. People come to IWCCCARS all the time asking us to do custom cars for them. Frankly, we don't even have the time to keep up with all the changes in the real cars and maintain the quality that people associate with the project, much less be able to do a custom car for everyone that asks for one. So if this guy fills a void, and people are willing to pay for it, more power to him. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

> I can appreciate both your views, but paying up to $ 80.00 for a car > to put into a game that only costs $ 40.00 (tops) for is not sound > judgement in my opinion. I have no doubt that your efforts are > painstaking and quality. > -- > Take Care, Charlie Hiya Charlie, You know, Ive never seen someone sell a piece of canvas for more than the artwork that was painted on it. Papyrus didnt design ICR2 or N2 "just" for you and only devoted their time and money "just" for you. Its not to hard to "judge" what Im sayin....... The bottom line is time, effort, and quality equal price. Its one thing to create a car set are work on a project for the "masses". As a matter of fact Im involved with "TSP", working on altering ICR2 helmet and car properties to make it a little more realitstic. I wont charge for this because its a project that a few people have decided to get together to make ICR2 realistic and it would therefore be offered for the benefit of everyone! That is my decission. However Im not here to paint "FREE" cars for every moron that walks in here and says "I need someone to paint a car for my girlfriend!" =8>] -DG-

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> >> Ok, approximately how much are we talkin' here...? > >>>>I havent gone over a price of $60.00(US) on the ICR2 cars. The palette for N2 however is much harder to work with and sometimes its a "painstakingly" pixel by pixel application, but my price for N2 cars hasnt risen above $80.00(US). It really depends on how long it takes me. I have to "search" the web sometimes for a couple of hours just to get the logos (sponsors) requested. If you gave me a fairly "detailed" description, I could come up with a more acurate price. The bottom line is I wor > >research and "streamlining" involved. If you could imagine an average > >$70.00 for 15 hours then you're looking at close to minimum wage. I > >think that Im very "reasonable" when it comes to my time and ability. > >The reason is, I like to work on these cars, but not for free. =8>] > >-DG-<<< > > This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. > >Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' > >dollars....???? > I have no connection to this guy either way, but it's a free market; > no one has the right to tell this guy that he IS NOT PERMITTED to > charge whatever he wants for his services. (Of course, you being a > consumer in a free market are free to not buy the product at the price > offered...) Then again, I'd have to help the Devil himself shovel his > car out of his parking space before I'd pay for my own car... :-) > ---Jim Sokoloff

Now Jim here seems to know the meaning of "services rendered". as for the devil and his "parking spot", who would "pay" for a car when the company one "was" working for was paying the salary of a whole art dept.? (g) I'm takin' a "shot on the dark" but Im pretty sure the "art" dept at Papy didnt walked in everyday for free! =8>] -DG-

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> > Ok, approximately how much are we talkin' here...? > >>>I havent gone over a price of $60.00(US) on the ICR2 cars... > This, from the guy who spammed us all with the Blaupunkt Indy Car. > Does ANYONE think an N2 car should be PAID for, let alone 80 FREAKIN' > dollars....????

mmm... Is this a bad moment to mention that I have written a convertion program for ICR2 -> N2, but I want to charge for it (although I intend to have a free version with some limitations)?. I can honestly say that I think it has been a task a few magnitudes greater in difficulty than painting a car. I have also been anticipating that some will be none too happy with the idea... Be gentle please!. Dave Noonan P.S. Anyone willing to send me a 16-bit texture (.m16) from a rendition track?.

Thank GOD I am artistic...the game doesnt mean THAT much to me :)))))) Mike Frazer

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>>> <tongue in cheek> >>> If you can afford $80 a car, my expert time surely is worth at least this >>> much. So in case anyone in interested, I've decided to start charging >>> $100/hour for hardware recommendations and general tech support. If you >>> send me an e-mail asking for help, expect a bill to soon follow. Hey, >>> perhaps I can even convince Dave to start charging for our IWCCCARS so we >>> can all be rich. =) >>> </tongue in cheek>* >>> * Note: for the humor impared I've kindly included these slightly >>> non-standard HTML tags. >LOL! I like those new HTML tags, Eric. >FWIW, I'm with Jim on this one. If the guy wants to charge, let him charge. >People come to IWCCCARS all the time asking us to do custom cars for them. >Frankly, we don't even have the time to keep up with all the changes in the >real cars and maintain the quality that people associate with the project, >much less be able to do a custom car for everyone that asks for one. So if >this guy fills a void, and people are willing to pay for it, more power to >him. >Dave Sparks >IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars >Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html >Hawaii Handle: davids

Mike Frazer #11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN Prime Time Motorsports

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> > <tongue in cheek> > > If you can afford $80 a car, my expert time surely is worth at least this > > much. So in case anyone in interested, I've decided to start charging > > $100/hour for hardware recommendations and general tech support. If you > > send me an e-mail asking for help, expect a bill to soon follow. Hey, > > perhaps I can even convince Dave to start charging for our IWCCCARS so we > > can all be rich. =) > > </tongue in cheek>* > > * Note: for the humor impared I've kindly included these slightly > > non-standard HTML tags. > > -- > Hiya' Eric, > I am very grateful for what you've done for "free" in the past along > with > all the thanks from the other guys. > You just tell me when your ready to start painting FREE "custom" cars > for every > Tom,***, and Harry that wonders into this newsgroup and > Ill send some orders your way. I think anyone with a "half a brain" can > see my point. > BTW, how are those '97s comin'?!! If you need any templates let me know! > I'll even give 'em to ya for FREE! > =8>] > -DG-

Oh BTW, Go check out alt.bin.sim.autos for my "next" project. Look at MOMO racing team! Hey! Its even FREE! =8>] -DG-

> However Im not here to paint "FREE" cars for every moron that walks in here and says "I need >someone to paint a car for my girlfriend!" >=8>] >-DG- I'm not going to comment on the issue of charging a fee for designing a custom car. If you want to do so, and if someone is willing to pay for it, that's fine, more power to you. What I DO want to comment on, Mr. Gary, is your beligerent, obnoxious attitude. Is there really any need to publicly refer to someone as a "moron" and make sniping little comments about his "sweetheart" simply because he makes an innocent request in this newsgroup? Mr. McKinley asked a simple question, the type of question that appears many times a day in this newsgroup. I may be wrong, but I always assumed the purpose of this newsgroup was the exchange of information and ideas to enhance and improve simulation racing for all of us. Perhaps you and Richard Manning should get together and form your own simulator newsgroup where you can whine, brag, flame, and insult to your hearts' content. As for charging a fee for a paintjob or a utility, can you in all honesty say that you have NEVER downloaded any add-ons that someone else has created for any of the sims? If you HAVE downloaded any of these enhancements, have you ever thought about sending the author a few bucks in appreciation of their time and efforts? Or are you just sitting back and having a good chuckle because these suckers are such pathetic losers for giving their work away for free? Feel free to flame ME now, bearing in mind that the impact of the insult upon me is directly proportional to the amount of respect that I have for the source. Ian

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> > I have no connection to this guy either way, but it's a free market; > > no one has the right to tell this guy that he IS NOT PERMITTED to > > charge whatever he wants for his services. (Of course, you being a > > consumer in a free market are free to not buy the product at the price > > offered...) Then again, I'd have to help the Devil himself shovel his > > car out of his parking space before I'd pay for my own car... :-) > > ---Jim Sokoloff > Now Jim here seems to know the meaning of "services rendered". > as for the devil and his "parking spot", who would "pay" for > a car when the company one "was" working for was paying the > salary of a whole art dept.? (g) > I'm takin' a "shot on the dark" but Im pretty sure the "art" > dept at Papy didnt walked in everyday for free! > =8>] > -DG-

Jim made the key point, it's a free market. If Mr. Gary wants to charge $80 for custom designs, that is his right. However, considering that the going free market value for both fictinal and non-fictional cars is $0, I suspect that he is pricing himself out of the market, to put it mildly. If you are offended by his pricing, you have a very simple way of expressing your dislpeasure- don't buy from him. If you have a secific car design, sponsor, etc. in mind, there is a good chance it's already been posted somewhere, for free, if you look hard enough. -- Ed "A friend of mine suggested I try America Online, I said 'But I already have a computer...'"

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>> -DG- >Jim made the key point, it's a free market. If Mr. Gary wants to charge >$80 for custom designs, that is his right. However, considering that the >going free market value for both fictinal and non-fictional cars is $0, >I suspect that he is pricing himself out of the market, to put it >mildly. If you are offended by his pricing, you have a very simple way >of expressing your dislpeasure- don't buy from him. If you have a >secific car design, sponsor, etc. in mind, there is a good chance it's >already been posted somewhere, for free, if you look hard enough.

Oh, I agree, Ed! If people can get the same cars for free, why pay 80 ROD-KNOCKIN' dollars for them?? And he says he "has a demand for his high-quality cars..." 3 cars in the last TWO YEARS is hardly demand....

Thank YOU, Ian, for sticking up for us "morons"....All I asked was for someone to PLEASE paint a car so that my wife had her own car to race. When the price of having a car painted is TWICE as much as what I paid for the game, then I think it's time that we reported this guy to the IRS (for tax evasion, possibly...?) and Papyrus for charging people for using a licensed product for his own benefit and reaping an income from it. I thought that to us "non-Papyrus" types that the game was just that: A GAME! Not a way to make money off of it....

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> Jim made the key point, it's a free market. If Mr. Gary wants to charge > $80 for custom designs, that is his right. However, considering that the > going free market value for both fictinal and non-fictional cars is $0, > I suspect that he is pricing himself out of the market, to put it > mildly. If you are offended by his pricing, you have a very simple way > of expressing your dislpeasure- don't buy from him. If you have a > secific car design, sponsor, etc. in mind, there is a good chance it's > already been posted somewhere, for free, if you look hard enough. > -- > Ed

Mr. Benson, Please tell me what you base your statement on when you say "The market value for "fictional" and "non-fictional" cars is "zero". If not, I take it that your statement is hypothetical and thus means you have "stated" with no true foundation of fact. Stating that the "market value" is zero leads one to believe their IS a market and that there is a certain "value" for this market. Where is the information on the "value" on this market and "who" sets the value? In other words, there couldnt possibly be a "market" if it where based on a value of "zero". I suppose this would question your intellegence of "market" principals. The bottom line is: "painting" or "designing" the pcx files for these cars is time consuming and takes not only "know-how", but a certain degree of "design" expertise. I base the price I would charge solely on the time and effort it would take to create what some-one "personally" asked for. I consider it "art" and "design" to a degree and therefore would charge for "those" services rendered from my past experience in art and design. The fact of the matter is I HAVE been payed in the past for "these" services. It is not my livelyhood of course, but it therefore concludes that there IS a "market" for it. I stated that these designs take me anywhere form 6 to 15 hours to "collect", "design", and "create". Now basing this on a general time=price. 10 hours for $70(US) is $7 an hour and, IMO, a pretty reasonable amount when it comes to the quality I feel I give from my experience. If one is "offended" by this it just goes to show they have no "clue" what the "value" of the dollar in this day and era. I can almost guarantee that noone will find a "design" that will match there "precise" expectations for certain "logos" and "sponsors". If they have an idea the only way to get that "idea" into "reality" or in this case "virtual" reality is to cater to one's exact description. This is called "customizing" and there is a "proven" "market" for that. -David Gary-

> Jim made the key point, it's a free market. If Mr. Gary wants to charge > $80 for custom designs, that is his right. However, considering that the > going free market value for both fictinal and non-fictional cars is $0, > I suspect that he is pricing himself out of the market, to put it > mildly. If you are offended by his pricing, you have a very simple way > of expressing your dislpeasure- don't buy from him. If you have a > secific car design, sponsor, etc. in mind, there is a good chance it's > already been posted somewhere, for free, if you look hard enough. > > -- Mr. Benson, Please tell me what you base your statement on when you say "The market value for "fictional" and "non-fictional" cars is "zero". If not, I take it that your statement is hypothetical and thus means you have "stated" with no true foundation of fact. Stating that the "market value" is zero leads one to believe their IS a market and that there is a certain "value" for this market. Where is the information on the "value" on this market and "who" sets the value? In other words, there couldnt possibly be a "market" if it where based on a value of "zero". I suppose this would question your intellegence of "market" principals. The bottom line is: "painting" or "designing" the pcx files for these cars is time consuming and takes not only "know-how", but a certain degree of "design" expertise. I base the price I would charge solely on the time and effort it would take to create what some-one "personally" asked for. I consider it "art" and "design" to a degree and therefore would charge for "those" services rendered from my past experience in art and design. The fact of the matter is I HAVE been payed in the past for "these" services. It is not my livelyhood of course, but it therefore concludes that there IS a "market" for it. I stated that these designs take me anywhere form 6 to 15 hours to "collect", "design", and "create". Now basing this on a general time=price. 10 hours for $70(US) is $7 an hour and, IMO, a pretty reasonable amount when it comes to the quality I feel I give from my experience. If one is "offended" by this it just goes to show they have no "clue" what the "value" of the dollar in this day and era. I can almost guarantee that noone will find a "design" that will match there "precise" expectations for certain "logos" and "sponsors". If they have an idea the only way to get that "idea" into "reality" or in this case "virtual" reality is to cater to one's exact description. This is called "customizing" and there is a "proven" "market" for that. -David Gary- < Charge all you want big man, only true idiots or someone lacking knowledge of the 'market' as you call it would be stupid enough to pay you for your precious time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Jason Nichols Commissioner SportSim Football League http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

Even though I like cars, (i don't have N2) It would not make sense to get this for $80.00 for 5 measly cars which you can find with similar quality free!! I remember downloading a whole set of N1 cars, plus downloading others. All I can say is that these people who work their butts off creating cars for long periods and sending them free, at their cost, are doing this for seeing others enjoy the game. Your extremely high pricing is very unusual, for the people who would normally get your cars free on the net or buy for a few bucks would treat $80 as a slap in the face. My only hope is that you start posting your cars on the net for free, to someone else's website. You will go out of buisness most likely with this kind of practice. By the way, remember Alan Kulwicki. Christopher http://members.aol.com/ROSCS ---------------------------------------------------- Dale Earnhardt: "Hey Ron...It's Earnhardt...your wife called...said sumpn' 'bout an anneversary..." Ron Hornaday "Aww..."(slamms on brakes)

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> > Jim made the key point, it's a free market. If Mr. Gary wants to charge > > $80 for custom designs, that is his right. However, considering that the > > going free market value for both fictinal and non-fictional cars is $0, > > I suspect that he is pricing himself out of the market, to put it > > mildly. If you are offended by his pricing, you have a very simple way > > of expressing your dislpeasure- don't buy from him. If you have a > > secific car design, sponsor, etc. in mind, there is a good chance it's > > already been posted somewhere, for free, if you look hard enough. > > -- > > Ed > Mr. Benson, > Please tell me what you base your statement on when you say "The market > value for "fictional" > and "non-fictional" cars is "zero". If not, I take it that your > statement is hypothetical and > thus means you have "stated" with no true foundation of fact. Stating > that the "market value" > is zero leads one to believe their IS a market and that there is a > certain "value" for this > market. Where is the information on the "value" on this market and "who" > sets the value? In > other words, there couldnt possibly be a "market" if it where based on a > value of "zero". I > suppose this would question your intellegence of "market" principals. > The bottom line is: "painting" or "designing" the pcx files for these > cars is time consuming > and takes not only "know-how", but a certain degree of "design" > expertise. I base the price > I would charge solely on the time and effort it would take to create > what some-one "personally" > asked for. I consider it "art" and "design" to a degree and therefore > would charge for "those" > services rendered from my past experience in art and design. > The fact of the matter is I HAVE been payed in the past for "these" > services. It is not my livelyhood > of course, but it therefore concludes that there IS a "market" for it. > I stated that these designs take me anywhere form 6 to 15 hours to > "collect", "design", and "create". > Now basing this on a general time=price. 10 hours for $70(US) is $7 an > hour and, IMO, a pretty > reasonable amount when it comes to the quality I feel I give from my > experience. If one is "offended" > by this it just goes to show they have no "clue" what the "value" of the > dollar in this day and era. > I can almost guarantee that noone will find a "design" that will match > there "precise" expectations > for certain "logos" and "sponsors". If they have an idea the only way to > get that "idea" into "reality" > or in this case "virtual" reality is to cater to one's exact > description. This is called "customizing" > and there is a "proven" "market" for that. > -David Gary-

So just to get it straight, you are not going to charge us for all of the time you have TROWN AWAY trying to defend your position. I mean after all you should get at least $50 for each letter you write to us on R.A.S right?

it's a free market. If Mr. Gary wants to charge > > $80 for custom designs, that is his right. However, considering that the > > going free market value for both fictinal and non-fictional cars is $0, > > I suspect that he is pricing himself out of the market, to put it > > mildly. If you are offended by his pricing, you have a very simple way > > of expressing your dislpeasure- don't buy from him. If you have a > > secific car design, sponsor, etc. in mind, there is a good chance it's > > already been posted somewhere, for free, if you look hard enough. > > > > -- > > Ed > > > > Mr. Benson, > > Please tell me what you base your statement on when you say "The market > value for "fictional" > and "non-fictional" cars is "zero". If not, I take it that your > statement is hypothetical and > thus means you have "stated" with no true foundation of fact. Stating > that the "market value" > is zero leads one to believe their IS a market and that there is a > certain "value" for this > market. Where is the information on the "value" on this market and "who" > sets the value? In > other words, there couldnt possibly be a "market" if it where based on a > value of "zero". I > suppose this would question your intellegence of "market" principals. > > The bottom line is: "painting" or "designing" the pcx files for these > cars is time consuming > and takes not only "know-how", but a certain degree of "design" > expertise. I base the price what some-one "personally" > asked for. I consider it "art" and "design" to a degree and therefore > would charge for "those" > services rendered from my past experience in art and design. > > The fact of the matter is I HAVE been payed in the past for "these" > services. It is not my livelyhood > of course, but it therefore concludes that there IS a "market" for it. > > I stated that these designs take me anywhere form 6 to 15 hours to > "collect", "design", and "create". > Now basing this on a general time=price. 10 hours for $70(US) is $7 an > hour and, IMO, a pretty > reasonable amount when it comes to the quality I feel I give from my > experience. If one is "offended" > by this it just goes to show they have no "clue" what the "value" of the > dollar in this day and era. > > I can almost guarantee that noone will find a "design" that will match > there "precise" expectations > for certain "logos" and "sponsors". If they have an idea the only way to > get that "idea" into "reality" > or in this case "virtual" reality is to cater to one's exact > description. This is called "customizing" > and there is a "proven" "market" for that. > > -David Gary- So just to get it straight, you are not going to charge us for all of the time you have TROWN AWAY trying to defend your position. I mean after all you should get at least $50 for each letter you write to us on R.A.S right? < I think he OWES US each $50 for our wasted time reading about his "marketplace"....... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Jason Nichols Commissioner SportSim Football League http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

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> >Subject: Re: ###*** N2: Can you believe this...???***### From: David > Charge all you want big man, only true idiots or someone lacking knowledge > of the 'market' as you call it would be stupid enough to pay you for your > precious time. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------- > Jason Nichols > Commissioner > SportSim Football League > http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html

A fine reply from someone that was searching for a "Vols" car! Why didnt you paint it yourself? hmmmmmm, maybe you dont have a clue! Just goes to show how someone might take your reply with a grain of salt. =8>] -DG-

Please drop this thread... --

David Gary is such a greedy guy!!! More than 100, if not 1000 people make free cars with better or similar quality. And MORE than 3 people got them. I think this is a ripoff by a "simulator fan". Christopher http://members.aol.com/ROSCS ---------------------------------------------------- Dale Earnhardt: "Hey Ron...It's Earnhardt...your wife called...said sumpn' 'bout an anneversary..." Ron Hornaday "Aww..."(slamms on brakes)

I have a solution...Everyone join-up in the iRACE chat area, and buy each-other a {S beer =d For heaven's sake - this is a game. Marc Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - USA

Ian "the poor soul that was too stoned to get all of his news" McIlroy Yo Ian, You really need to get online with another server! Compuserve isnt doing anything but making you sound like you have no clue what your talking about. Either that are it might be because your smoking waaaaay to much dope! (How do I know this?) Probably because of this post you made to:rec.***.***: Evidently you didnt READ the "follows up" by Mr. Mckinley. The original "poster"(Jimmy Mckinley) asked if someone would paint a car for his girlfriend. I offered to do it for him for a fee. We exchanged email nicely until it was obvious that Mr. Mckinley wasnt interested in the least of paying for any services. Instead he insulted me, posted his "opinion" in r.a.s. and insisted that no one should have to pay for "Illustrated" Nascar pcx files. I then stated clearly what I thought about people who "wanted something for nothing". Yes you are! Hmmmm, evidently you dont think so with your following comment to r.manning I thought it was too and I do "exchange information and ideas", but I also let people know my opinion when there "negatively" reply to mine. It seems YOU dont though with this reply: You need to go out, buy you a dictionary, and lookup the word: H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E! Huh? You need to "investigate" things more often before posting these absurdities. I have a huge collection of cars and believe me I wouldnt try to "sell" 99% of them. I design my own cars. Again if someone wants a "personal" car designed, I'll offer my services. I could, but wont because it seems either Compuserve doesnt allow you to recieve ALL of the news here in r.a.s. or your waaaay too stoned to operate your mouse effectively! As for your "Satire" of my "character", I actually laughed my ass off! =8>] Maybe I have been a little "ruff" on these guys in the past. I have apologized. That still doesnt change my mind that they're not morons. (grin) See ya "Bobcat" and tell Leslie I said hi! =8>] -David Gary- ROTFFLMFAO! "All Andy wanted to do was wrestle"

Even though I like cars, (i don't have N2) It would not make sense to get this for $80.00 for 5 measly cars which you can find with similar quality free!! Chris, Understand one thing. We are talking about "custom designed cars that someone has "personally" asked for. I have distributed several cars on the net that werent designed for anyone but myself. This whole discussion is based on people who want a car "S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y" designed for them. -DG-

What?????? icr2 to nascar2 convertion????? If it's true, well you're a heck of a good guy. And if it's free, I can tell that your generosity is welcomed in our communauty (the SimRacing one) and that all that your doing makes people HAPPY!HAPPY!HAPPY!HAPPY!HAPPY!(x50) :) . It's normal that people like Old'fella Gerhard Lingenberg or Tony Johns gave their utilities free. It's a game. And I don't remember anyone that charged anything for an utility (for Icr1, Icr2, N1, N2, WC or Gp2). Hope that what you say is not real, and that the common sence of intelligent people said that :"giving and charing is what makes human so different from other animals" (Jean-Paul Sartre). Hope that you will think very *** what you may do with the utility (if it's true). Thanks a lot and I hope that all the other on r.a.s. will respond to me, and say what they really want on charging $ for thing in SimRacing. Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy in rec.autos.simulators) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =ymenard now!!! SPEED- http://www.nascarnet.com/~speed [===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve, | ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is |!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le |o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. [--I--] v Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand" May the force be with you, always!! Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people) Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)

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> What?????? > icr2 to nascar2 convertion????? If it's true, well you're a heck of a > good guy. And if it's free, I can tell that your generosity is >welcomed in our communauty (the SimRacing one) and that all that your >doing makes people HAPPY!HAPPY!HAPPY!HAPPY!HAPPY!(x50) :) . It's >normal that people like Old'fella Gerhard Lingenberg or Tony Johns gave >their utilities free. It's a game. And I don't remember anyone that >charged anything for an utility (for Icr1, Icr2, N1, N2, WC or Gp2). >Hope that what you say is not real, and that the common sence of >intelligent people said that :"giving and charing is what makes human >so different from other animals" (Jean-Paul Sartre). Hope that you >will think very *** what you may do with the utility (if it's >true). Thanks a lot and I hope that all the other on r.a.s. will >respond to me, and say what >they really want on charging $ for thing in SimRacing. > Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy in >rec.autos.simulators) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =ymenard now!!! > SPEED- http://www.nascarnet.com/~speed >[===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve, >| ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is >|!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le >|o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. >[--I--] > v > Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand" > May the force be with you, always!! > Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people) > Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)

So someone has made a cool ICR2 to N2 util? I'de have to see if before I believe it. I know alot of good people have been trying to do this without any results. I doubt is real though. Oh well lets see. -- "To all you villans out there I say, knock off all that evil!" -The Tick The Rusty Wallace Miller Lite stock car, awsome when opened up! GO#2! Mullins Motorsports Inc. http://www.***tron.com/~ddmj

Believe it... --

D.G., thanks for advertising my website. </ROTFL> Christopher Oh, and my monthly update will come soon. Christopher http://members.aol.com/ROSCS ---------------------------------------------------- Dale Earnhardt: "Hey Ron...It's Earnhardt...your wife called...said sumpn' 'bout an anneversary..." Ron Hornaday "Aww..."(slamms on brakes)

If you're going to use HTML, you'd first have to <ROTFL> before you could </ROTFL>. Sorry for being picky, but some things just need to be done correctly. =) --

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> Believe it... > -- > > So someone has made a cool ICR2 to N2 util? I'de have to see if before > >I believe it. I know alot of good people have been trying to do this > >without any results. I doubt is real though. Oh well lets see.

Have you tried this out already? TIM

Everybody just relax, I'm sure the author will release it just as soon as he feels that it's finished. If you have any questions about the program, please don't e-mail me about it. After all, I'm sure he knows a little more about it than I (pretty easy since I really know nothing about it on.co.uk --

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> Believe it... > -- > > So someone has made a cool ICR2 to N2 util? I'de have to see if before > >I believe it. I know alot of good people have been trying to do this > >without any results. I doubt is real though. Oh well lets see.

And he wants us to pay him also... Decadence of the socitey :( Good race at the Brickyard, (Old'Indytrack guy in rec.autos.simulators) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =ymenard now!!! SPEED- http://www.nascarnet.com/~speed [===] Go Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve, | ! | And all you that thinks that Jacques Villeneuve is |!| from Canada, your right!! He's from St-Jean sur le |o| Richelieu, 30 minutes from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. [--I--] v Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand" May the force be with you, always!! Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!(for you French people) Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking)