It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic...
Mitch
Flame warWas the rain-hit 2004 Indy 500 pathetic?
Mitch_A called the 2004 Indianapolis 500 pathetic, while others thought Buddy Rice's rain-shortened win was a decent race. The long argument covered rookie and backmarker driving standards, why ovals are not raced in the rain amid tornado warnings, short fields as a sign of US open-wheel decline, and F1 versus oval racing. It included a sharp European versus American exchange and abusive posts between Mitch_A and Biz.
real motorsportoff-topic
Automated summary.
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:s4uuc.76588$[email hidden]...
> It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.Pathetic...
>
> Mitch
>
I thought it was an excellent race, congrats to Buddy Rice!
On Sun, 30 May 2004 23:26:16 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic...
>
>Mitch
>
I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. No first
lap crashes, and a Foyt admitted he was wrong. Couldn't be a relation
to Aj...
The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the
weather. Yeah, there were instances of dumb driving, but that's
always been true of Indy (and most races for that matter). It was a
tough race and while I don't agree with all the rules they have, it
was run in accordance with them.
The one screwup I can really cite is the first rain delay when the
pace car went down a closed pit road and the field didn't follow. I
can't blame the field one bit and think that's one issue that'll be
discussed in the officials review of the race...
There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), lots
of close racing (much like NASCAR), and a bit of contact (not that it
was needed).
All in all, I wasn't disappointed with the race (other than the driver
I picked didn't win - Dario Franchitti).
Mike
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:s4uuc.76588$[email hidden]:
>
> It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.
> Pathetic...
>
> Mitch
>
I spent a lovely mid-day subjecting my wife to the SHORT version of
The Lord of the Rings; The Return of the King. Splendid fun...
Isn't there some SCCA races tomorrow at Lime Rock? THAT should be some
good racin'
dave henrie
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:s4uuc.76588$[email hidden]...
> It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.Pathetic...
>
> Mitch
The pace-car won, right?
--
Regards, Hans
Alfa Romeo 156 Selespeed - 1999
Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0V6 - 1997
On 5/30/2004 6:26 PM, Mitch_A wrote:
> It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic...
>
> Mitch
>
>
Agree. All those rookies? Give me a break.
Dan
On Sun, 30 May 2004 23:26:16 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic...
I watched a bit around lap 100. In the span of around 20 laps I saw
some of the worst driving I've ever seen outside of a simulator.
>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic...
>
Why's that, Mitch? I thought it was a pretty good race...
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
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US East
Quoted text (10 lines)
>On 5/30/2004 6:26 PM, Mitch_A wrote: >> It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. >Pathetic... >> >> Mitch >> >> > >Agree. All those rookies? Give me a break. >
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:s4uuc.76588$[email hidden]...
> It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.Pathetic...
>
> Mitch
>
>
The intermittent rain made it pathetic. Whom do we blame that on?
I watched most of the race and thought it was decent.
Alanb
Hans de Heer wrote:
Only because it was in front of the two Foyt cars...
Gary
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:s4uuc.76588$[email hidden]... > > It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. > Pathetic... > > > > Mitch > > The pace-car won, right? > > -- > Regards, Hans > Alfa Romeo 156 Selespeed - 1999 > Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0V6 - 1997Mike Donnelly Jr wrote:
I picked Bruno Junqueira to win...damned rain didn't come soon enough!
Gary
Quoted text (31 lines)
> > On Sun, 30 May 2004 23:26:16 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic... > > > >Mitch > > > > I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. No first > lap crashes, and a Foyt admitted he was wrong. Couldn't be a relation > to Aj... > > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the > weather. Yeah, there were instances of dumb driving, but that's > always been true of Indy (and most races for that matter). It was a > tough race and while I don't agree with all the rules they have, it > was run in accordance with them. > > The one screwup I can really cite is the first rain delay when the > pace car went down a closed pit road and the field didn't follow. I > can't blame the field one bit and think that's one issue that'll be > discussed in the officials review of the race... > > There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), lots > of close racing (much like NASCAR), and a bit of contact (not that it > was needed). > > All in all, I wasn't disappointed with the race (other than the driver > I picked didn't win - Dario Franchitti). > > MikeRuud Dingemans <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:c9ebk8$n99$[email hidden]:
Ovals, even with the softwalls are not pleasant things to race in the
rain. Yes the Euros race in the rain, so do sportscars, but Slicks
are the rule at Indy...Asside from the last turn at Montreal, I can't
think of a single F1 track that has walls that close the racing
line.(now the Montreal walls almost killed poor Panis a few years
ago. Imagine then the force that the Indy track could impact on a
car at over 200mph vs the 90 or 100 for that last turn at Montreal)
when the rain hits, the Euro drivers slow down...not really a good
idea with
Indy cars since they lose a great deal of the bottom sucking ground
effect downforce.
>
> And then time and again the racing is stopped because there's some
> incident and the pace car's got to come out again... and again.. and
> again. While I see the need for cleaning up the mess, it also stops
> the racing dead every time. So I saw more stops, and almost no RACING,
> every time I zapped by to see what was happening at Indy these days.
Can't argue there, pace cars do impact the racing...but the oval is
again the culprit...cars wreck and the shredded parts have no where
to go. Should they keep zooming by at 200+ while debris lies
scattered all over...and would a safety crew want to be ontrack
whilst this happens?
yup...days gone by...Just like the era of Unser Jr. Vs Andretti Jr in
CART. Daring passes all race long. one thing I didn't like about
the 10 cylinder vs 12 cylinder days in F1 was the different fuel
loads. The V12 Ferraris would have to carry more fuel and thus be
slugs during the first few laps. Once they burnt off some fuel they
seemed more than capable of competing with those Honda/Mclarens...but
by then...they were too far behind.
Dave Henrie
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable > channel), this was Boredom City guys. > > > Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. > (In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing > out of the cockpits! I never got this obsession with Americans > stopping the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is > part of racing, never mind that it makes things more lively > sometimes.)Quoted text (14 lines)
> > Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actually > up to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked > pretty boring to me, sorry. > >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), > > You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;) > > True though, given the all-Schumi Show passing and competition is not > one of F1's strongest points these days. Ah the days of Rosberg, > Mansell and Piquet, Senna and Prost... > > Regards, Rudy
"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:c9ebk8$n99$[email hidden]...
> Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
> (In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing
> out of the cockpits! I never got this obsession with Americans stopping
> the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is part of
> racing, never mind that it makes things more lively sometimes.)
There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding
Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killed then
get your facts straight and STFU.
Yah, kind of like when Newman spun Andretti tonight in the CC 600.
"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 23:26:16 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.Pathetic...
>
> I watched a bit around lap 100. In the span of around 20 laps I saw
> some of the worst driving I've ever seen outside of a simulator.
On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:17:37 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]>
wrote:
As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing.
Typical, but regretable. The challenge in oval racing isn't sight
seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of
200 (in this case) laps. Due to the few corners on an oval, you come
up on lap trafic more frequently and thus have to deal with them more
often and with more patience - one tiny slip and you're in the fence,
and quite possibly hurt seriously and sometimes killed.
>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
>(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing
>out of the cockpits! I never got this obsession with Americans stopping
>the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is part of
>racing, never mind that it makes things more lively sometimes.)
Once again, your ignorance makes itself abundantly clear. In order to
get those high speeds and traction a treadless racing tire is used
(aka a racing slick or just slick). When the rain comes out, it's
foolhardy at best to race on one. Only idiots try and they almost
invariably crash in the process. For a road course series, wet
treaded tires are available and are used. Of course, not watching
roadies all that often I don't get to see them used very much.
>And then time and again the racing is stopped because there's some
>incident and the pace car's got to come out again... and again.. and
>again. While I see the need for cleaning up the mess, it also stops the
>racing dead every time. So I saw more stops, and almost no RACING, every
>time I zapped by to see what was happening at Indy these days.
If you want to be a course safety worker with cars zipping around you
at race speeds on a oval, that's your business, but you'd be killed in
your first event. Not to mention you'd mess up someone's car and
race. The pace car isn't there for show, it's there for a reason -
it's not safe to let unprotected safety workers out there with fast
moving cars.
Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the
action. The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit
strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race.
I saw quite a few brilliant ones and a number of ill advised ones.
Funny how a lot of road racers come to Indy and discover that being
all balls and no brains just doesn't work here like it did back home.
Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're
passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mention how
you do it.
Generally, I like the fendered cars better because you can have more
contact without brining out a caution. It tends to cut down on the
blocking and produce some very creative ways of getting around an
opponent.
>True though, given the all-Schumi Show passing and competition is not
>one of F1's strongest points these days. Ah the days of Rosberg, Mansell
>and Piquet, Senna and Prost...
Who?
Mike
Quoted text (15 lines)
>Mike Donnelly Jr wrote: >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic... > >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. > > >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck... > > > > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the >> weather. > > >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable >channel), this was Boredom City guys.Quoted text (7 lines)
>Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actually up >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked pretty >boring to me, sorry. > >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), > >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;)tony george.
Rice made a mess of overtaking takagi on lap 174, had to get out of the
throttle, kanaan wouldve caught him.
but the yellow was shown as soon as they noticed this.
PAH!
pez
"Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:b8xuc.22265$eY2.13485@attbi_s02...
Quoted text (17 lines)
> > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:s4uuc.76588$[email hidden]... > > It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. > Pathetic... > > > > Mitch > > > > > > The intermittent rain made it pathetic. Whom do we blame that on? > > I watched most of the race and thought it was decent. > > Alanb > >Mike quoted with:
>True though, given the all-Schumi Show passing and competition is not
>one of F1's strongest points these days. Ah the days of Rosberg, Mansell
>and Piquet, Senna and Prost...
And spoke:
>Who?
>Mike
----------------------------
Typical, but regretable. <<Nascar fan.
Once again, your ignorance makes itself abundantly clear. <<Nascar fan.
--
Richard "ZZ" Busch
Member:
Screamers Racing League
OAO
MARA TransAm
GPL Rank + 17.410
MoGPL Rank + 318.294
N2003 Rank -18.8060
----------------
Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward
-----------------
Mike Donnelly Jr wrote:
>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic...
> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late.
Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck...
> The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the
> weather.
Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable
channel), this was Boredom City guys.
Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing
out of the cockpits! I never got this obsession with Americans stopping
the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is part of
racing, never mind that it makes things more lively sometimes.)
And then time and again the racing is stopped because there's some
incident and the pace car's got to come out again... and again.. and
again. While I see the need for cleaning up the mess, it also stops the
racing dead every time. So I saw more stops, and almost no RACING, every
time I zapped by to see what was happening at Indy these days.
Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actually up
to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked pretty
boring to me, sorry.
> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1),
You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;)
True though, given the all-Schumi Show passing and competition is not
one of F1's strongest points these days. Ah the days of Rosberg, Mansell
and Piquet, Senna and Prost...
Regards, Rudy
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Well specificially I can think of Indy with turn 13/1 where the F1 cars can
go through at 170 on rain tires.
Quoted text (28 lines)
> Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:c9ebk8$n99$[email hidden]: > > > > > Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable > > channel), this was Boredom City guys. > > > > > > Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. > > (In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing > > out of the cockpits! I never got this obsession with Americans > > stopping the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is > > part of racing, never mind that it makes things more lively > > sometimes.) > > Ovals, even with the softwalls are not pleasant things to race in the > rain. Yes the Euros race in the rain, so do sportscars, but Slicks > are the rule at Indy...Asside from the last turn at Montreal, I can't > think of a single F1 track that has walls that close the racing > line.(now the Montreal walls almost killed poor Panis a few years > ago. Imagine then the force that the Indy track could impact on a > car at over 200mph vs the 90 or 100 for that last turn at Montreal) > when the rain hits, the Euro drivers slow down...not really a good > idea with > Indy cars since they lose a great deal of the bottom sucking ground > effect downforce. > > >Quoted text (37 lines)
> > And then time and again the racing is stopped because there's some > > incident and the pace car's got to come out again... and again.. and > > again. While I see the need for cleaning up the mess, it also stops > > the racing dead every time. So I saw more stops, and almost no RACING, > > every time I zapped by to see what was happening at Indy these days. > > Can't argue there, pace cars do impact the racing...but the oval is > again the culprit...cars wreck and the shredded parts have no where > to go. Should they keep zooming by at 200+ while debris lies > scattered all over...and would a safety crew want to be ontrack > whilst this happens? > > > > > Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actually > > up to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked > > pretty boring to me, sorry. > > > >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), > > > > You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;) > > > > True though, given the all-Schumi Show passing and competition is not > > one of F1's strongest points these days. Ah the days of Rosberg, > > Mansell and Piquet, Senna and Prost... > > > > Regards, Rudy > > yup...days gone by...Just like the era of Unser Jr. Vs Andretti Jr in > CART. Daring passes all race long. one thing I didn't like about > the 10 cylinder vs 12 cylinder days in F1 was the different fuel > loads. The V12 Ferraris would have to carry more fuel and thus be > slugs during the first few laps. Once they burnt off some fuel they > seemed more than capable of competing with those Honda/Mclarens...but > by then...they were too far behind. > > > Dave Henrie"Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:yHHuc.275412$[email hidden]:
> Well specificially I can think of Indy with turn 13/1 where the F1
> cars can go through at 170 on rain tires.
(that was pretty dense of me to not think of Indy eh?) but,,,
See that's the deal..First rain tires...2nd 170. That is speed from
60 years ago. Indy is about speed, not slipping and sliding around at
a pace a decent high priced street car could acheive.
Goodyear has tested oval rain tires...in secret. I never heard the
results of those efforts. Due to Goodyear's poor financial health, I
don't think they have the money to step up and do more research.(thats in
the Nascar arena). Why Bridgestone hasn't approached the irl about
racing in the rain, I don't know. But even if the rain tires worked, you
still have to overcome 100 years of NOT racing on ovals in the wet.
dh
Quoted text (12 lines)
>"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:c9ebk8$n99$[email hidden]... >> Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. >> (In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing >> out of the cockpits! I never got this obsession with Americans stopping >> the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is part of >> racing, never mind that it makes things more lively sometimes.) > > >There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding >Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killed then >get your facts straight and STFU.On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:17:37 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]>
wrote:
>True though, given the all-Schumi Show passing and competition is not
>one of F1's strongest points these days. Ah the days of Rosberg, Mansell
>and Piquet, Senna and Prost...
Senna and Prost?
Yes, F1 was a lot better when Senna was winning 5/6th of the races,
and Prost was winning was Senna retired due to a mechanical problem.
Jason
On 5/30/2004 9:51 PM, EldredP wrote:
Any driver should earn there way like the old days. Indy had trouble
filling the field. Certainly, not a good sign. American open-wheel
racing is in trouble...
Dan
Quoted text (18 lines)
>>On 5/30/2004 6:26 PM, Mitch_A wrote: >> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. >> >>Pathetic... >> >>>Mitch >>> >>> >> >>Agree. All those rookies? Give me a break. >> > > > So how are new drivers ever going to GET in the race, if you don't want rookies > driving in the 500? > > EldredBut it isn't ok for him to cut the Indy group a little slack either? If he
had went to the race it might have been a little different, having the local
sirens going off and people running under the grandstands for cover. I
believe about 40-50 people yesterday afternoon and early evening were taken
to local hospitals.
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
then
> >get your facts straight and STFU.
>
> I never heard ANY mention of tornadoes during the telecast. So, even Iwasn't
Quoted text (11 lines)
> >"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:c9ebk8$n99$[email hidden]... > >> Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. > >> (In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing > >> out of the cockpits! I never got this obsession with Americans stopping > >> the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is part of > >> racing, never mind that it makes things more lively sometimes.) > > > > > >There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding > >Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killedQuoted text (15 lines)
> aware of them, and I live in Michigan. I think we can cut Rudy(from the > Netherlands) a little slack. > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US EastSo when NASCAR has trouble filling their fields why don't we see people
saying their series is in trouble?
"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:vrJuc.17720$[email hidden]...
rookies
Quoted text (16 lines)
> On 5/30/2004 9:51 PM, EldredP wrote: > >>On 5/30/2004 6:26 PM, Mitch_A wrote: > >> > >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. > >> > >>Pathetic... > >> > >>>Mitch > >>> > >>> > >> > >>Agree. All those rookies? Give me a break. > >> > > > > > > So how are new drivers ever going to GET in the race, if you don't wantQuoted text (9 lines)
> > driving in the 500? > > > > Eldred > > Any driver should earn there way like the old days. Indy had trouble > filling the field. Certainly, not a good sign. American open-wheel > racing is in trouble... > > Dan
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
It wasn't in secret. Since the cars only travel around the oval in one
direction, treaded tires havent been able to hold, from any manufacturer
that has tried.
I never heard the results of those efforts. Due to Goodyear's poor
financial health, I
Quoted text (14 lines)
> "Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:yHHuc.275412$[email hidden]: > > > Well specificially I can think of Indy with turn 13/1 where the F1 > > cars can go through at 170 on rain tires. > > (that was pretty dense of me to not think of Indy eh?) but,,, > > > See that's the deal..First rain tires...2nd 170. That is speed from > 60 years ago. Indy is about speed, not slipping and sliding around at > a pace a decent high priced street car could acheive. > > Goodyear has tested oval rain tires...in secret.Quoted text (7 lines)
> don't think they have the money to step up and do more research.(thats in > the Nascar arena). Why Bridgestone hasn't approached the irl about > racing in the rain, I don't know. But even if the rain tires worked, you > still have to overcome 100 years of NOT racing on ovals in the wet. > > dh >The overiding factor was sheer lack of driving skills and lack of
preparation by 2/3rds of the field. This race reminded me of a bad pickup
race. I dont recall too many pass attempts that didnt end in a yellow flag.
Mitch
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> >It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.Pathetic...
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > > > Why's that, Mitch? I thought it was a pretty good race... > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East"Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> So when NASCAR has trouble filling their fields why don't we see people
> saying their series is in trouble?
Remember Bill this is Indy. The Greatest Spectacle in Racing.
Daytona had no trouble getting 43 cars for their premier event. The
short fields came after that at the smaller tracks.
Indy should have cars/teams/drivers flocking to compete. The list of
unemployed drivers hanging around the pits in May was fairly long.
Poor chevy. They have to make an alliance with Ford Cosworth just
to be competitive last year and as soon as they do, the Niponese shoot
past them again this year. Will the Bowtie squads start getting handicap
help?
Shouldn't the IRL weigh down all the Honda and Toyota powered teams?
Back to the trouble with Open Wheel. It is dire. TV ratings are in
the toliet for both leagues, the Cost of running an IRL team now has
bankrupted many of the original teams that joined the league...the teams
that the league was created for.
And while the numbers are not yet disasterous<sp?> the wonks ARE
raising doubts about Nascar as well. The TV ratings are the lowest
since Fox/NBC took over, the car fields are short a few cars and really
short nearly a dozen competitive cars. Ford is rationing it's new engine
parts to just two teams. Pontiac is gone...Toyota will be here in just a
couple more years. That will kill half the Dodge teams. The costs of
supporting a first class car have doubled in just a few short years.
Nascar is pricing itself out of business. How many families can afford
weekend tickets when hotels and seats can cost a family of 4 close to
1,000 US dollars?
The move West will bring in new fans, but not fans with a history of
supporting live racing. We just don't get exposed to much major league
racing out here, so while tickets will be easy to sell the first few
years...I wonder how long they will keep the stands full?
Champcars are hurting, the IRL survives only on money from
Honda/Toyota and the Family of the Devil. Alms vs Rolex is also gonna
hurt Sportscars. We may look back and say this WAS the golden age of TV
racing.
dave henrie
> And while the numbers are not yet disasterous<sp?> the wonks ARE
> raising doubts about Nascar as well.
I forgot to add this as well, the MANUFACTURERS are upset with Nascar.
THey want to race cars they sell, not vanilla boxes with grill decals.
Dodge has a Charger comming out they want to run, but it's not anywhere
near the size/specs of the current crop of Nextel Cup Cars. All three US
companies sent their PRESIDENTS to Florida to lecture Nascar about how much
support they are providing for cars that do not reflect what they sell.
Think Toyota can support all 4 major Nascar leagues if the 3 US
manufacturers pull out?
"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:17:37 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]>
> wrote:
>
> >Mike Donnelly Jr wrote:
> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.Pathetic...
Same as in F1, except you might have 15 corners to get absolutely perfect,
every lap, with the added difficulty of actual (and massive) braking and
acceleration.
> Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the
> action. The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit
> strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race.
Try watching an F1 car pit.
> >Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actually up
> >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked pretty
> >boring to me, sorry.
> >
> >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1),
But in F1 a pass actually means you've done something impressive and which
requires skill.
> >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;)
> Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're
> passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mention how
> you do it.
You're describing a pass in F1. Passing in NASCAR or Indy is far easier than
in F1. Get in the draft and then shoot by. Those series are artificially set
up for a lot of passing.
--
David G Fisher
Quoted text (18 lines)
> > > >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. > > > > > >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck... > > > > > > > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the > >> weather. > > > > > >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable > >channel), this was Boredom City guys. > > As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing. > Typical, but regretable. The challenge in oval racing isn't sight > seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of > 200 (in this case) laps."Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:s4uuc.76588$[email hidden]...
> It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.Pathetic...
>
> Mitch
Didn't hear a word about the race this past month......until it was over.
:-)
Indy and CART are done, and have been done for a long time now.
--
David G Fisher
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:AuKuc.62453$[email hidden]...
> The overiding factor was sheer lack of driving skills and lack of
> preparation by 2/3rds of the field. This race reminded me of a bad pickup
> race. I dont recall too many pass attempts that didnt end in a yellowflag.
>
> Mitch
You're correct Mitch, the entire month of May could not possibly be enough
time for anyone to prepare. Now STFU until you have a clue what you are
talking about. When you have tried INDY as a rookie, you can criticize all
you want.
Oh, you can make an observation because youve obviously been a rookie at
Indy...
Why dont you go fuck yourself you asswipe!
Plonk...
"Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%pNuc.15848$[email hidden]...
>
>
> You're correct Mitch, the entire month of May could not possibly be enough
> time for anyone to prepare. Now STFU until you have a clue what you are
> talking about. When you have tried INDY as a rookie, you can criticizeall
> you want.
>
>
On Mon, 31 May 2004 12:12:51 GMT, "ZZ" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Okay, I know who Nigel Mansel, Nelson Piquet, Ayrton Senna, and Alain
Prost are. I've heard of Rosberg, but don't remember ever seeing him
drive. That was back before I had much interest in racing - staying
alive day to day provided enough entertainment at that time (I was in
the US Navy at that point).
Mike - yes I am a NASCAR fan, but I enjoy other branches of the racing
family having been raised in the Nazareth PA area.
Quoted text (16 lines)
>Mike quoted with: >>True though, given the all-Schumi Show passing and competition is not >>one of F1's strongest points these days. Ah the days of Rosberg, Mansell >>and Piquet, Senna and Prost... > >And spoke: > >>Who? > >>Mike > >---------------------------- > >Typical, but regretable. <<Nascar fan. > >Once again, your ignorance makes itself abundantly clear. <<Nascar fan.
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> news:s4uuc.76588$[email hidden]:
>
> Isn't there some SCCA races tomorrow at Lime Rock? THAT should be some
> good racin'
SPEED World Challenge raced today. I believe they will air next Sunday.
Some of the best racing in the country these days, esp the Touring Cars.
-jde
I don't know that the news is quite as dire for NASCAR. I do think
their first mistake was their choice in broadcast partners. While ABC
/ ESPN didn't put up the money that NBC & Fox did, they had a lot more
history with the sport and knew how to take care of it. I doubt that
when it's time to renew the contract NASCAR will get as good of a deal
next time around. What the powers at NASCAR overlooked was how much
ABC / ESPN put into promoting WC & BNS.
OTOH, hopefully NASCAR will learn from it's greed and reunite w/ ABC /
ESPN *AND* readjust it's goals and methods. One of the secrets of
it's growth was that it didn't just look after itself for the day but
gave some thought as to what the future held. After it survived it's
initial growth period that is. That took a long time though. 20
years to get to the point where it was strong enough to survive as is
and have a view towards expanding it's fan base.
Where it will go next? I'm not sure. It seems to be willing to turn
it's back on the 'old timers', and that just might be the death of it.
Loyalty must be returned if it is to be maintained. The fiasco of the
death of North Wilkesboro was one strike, the current death of the
Labor Day Southern 500 & elimination of Rockingham is another strike.
Of course, they've retired other tracks. Hickory, Bowman Grey,
Nashville; all have fallen off the premier schedule.
Only thing to do is stay tuned.
Mike
On Mon, 31 May 2004 13:51:21 -0500, Dave Henrie
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (46 lines)
>"Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in >news:[email hidden]: > >> So when NASCAR has trouble filling their fields why don't we see people >> saying their series is in trouble? > > > Remember Bill this is Indy. The Greatest Spectacle in Racing. >Daytona had no trouble getting 43 cars for their premier event. The >short fields came after that at the smaller tracks. > Indy should have cars/teams/drivers flocking to compete. The list of >unemployed drivers hanging around the pits in May was fairly long. > Poor chevy. They have to make an alliance with Ford Cosworth just >to be competitive last year and as soon as they do, the Niponese shoot >past them again this year. Will the Bowtie squads start getting handicap >help? >Shouldn't the IRL weigh down all the Honda and Toyota powered teams? > Back to the trouble with Open Wheel. It is dire. TV ratings are in >the toliet for both leagues, the Cost of running an IRL team now has >bankrupted many of the original teams that joined the league...the teams >that the league was created for. > > And while the numbers are not yet disasterous<sp?> the wonks ARE >raising doubts about Nascar as well. The TV ratings are the lowest >since Fox/NBC took over, the car fields are short a few cars and really >short nearly a dozen competitive cars. Ford is rationing it's new engine >parts to just two teams. Pontiac is gone...Toyota will be here in just a >couple more years. That will kill half the Dodge teams. The costs of >supporting a first class car have doubled in just a few short years. >Nascar is pricing itself out of business. How many families can afford >weekend tickets when hotels and seats can cost a family of 4 close to >1,000 US dollars? > The move West will bring in new fans, but not fans with a history of >supporting live racing. We just don't get exposed to much major league >racing out here, so while tickets will be easy to sell the first few >years...I wonder how long they will keep the stands full? > Champcars are hurting, the IRL survives only on money from >Honda/Toyota and the Family of the Devil. Alms vs Rolex is also gonna >hurt Sportscars. We may look back and say this WAS the golden age of TV >racing. > >dave henrie > > > >
"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:c9glmp$kqh$[email hidden]...
Asphalt Oval racing is not done in the rain anywhere in the world last I
checked. None of the tire companies make wet weather tires for asphalt oval
racing. Nascar has rain tires for Watkins Glen and Sears Point, but they
choose not to implement it as this time. Since those are the only 2 races
they could actually run in the rain, the drivers/car/and the teams really
arent setup for it.
It really isn't worth my effort to respond to this... no logic
"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:c9gl2p$4dg$[email hidden]...
then
Quoted text (8 lines)
> Bill Bollinger wrote: > > >>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. > >>(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing > >>out of the cockpits! > > > There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding > > Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killedQuoted text (25 lines)
> > get your facts straight and STFU. > > Well, lemme get *this* little fact straight then, mr. Logic: > > the organisers risked to stage a race when there were more than 20 > *tornadoes* registered around Indy? How's that for safety then, anyway? > > If there's tornado warning for the day, you cancel the day, and try the > day after. > > If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming > down the track. Apart from that, you drive slower. Just slow enough so > you can make it. If the rain gets worse, you drive slower still. Until > the point where you just can't see where you're going and things are > really getting unsafe beyond normality. > > It's been done like this for, well, always here in Europe, I can't see > why it can't be done in the States, really. It's just a bit of water and > the track is just a bit more slippery, that's all. Can't drive as fast > then, you say? Well drive slower then, that's what you do! > > Regards, Rudy > -------------------- > GPLRank: -22 >On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:55:48 -0500, Dan <[email hidden]> wrote:
Yep. And it's been so since 1995. I think that Champ Cars will soon
fold up entirely. It's sad because philisophically, they won. Indy
isn't a stand alone event anymore and is the crown jewel of a series.
Unfortunately in achieving that philisophical victory, they killed
themselves in the process - largely through poor decisions.
Mike
Quoted text (25 lines)
>On 5/30/2004 9:51 PM, EldredP wrote: >>>On 5/30/2004 6:26 PM, Mitch_A wrote: >>> >>>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. >>> >>>Pathetic... >>> >>>>Mitch >>>> >>>> >>> >>>Agree. All those rookies? Give me a break. >>> >> >> >> So how are new drivers ever going to GET in the race, if you don't want rookies >> driving in the 500? >> >> Eldred > >Any driver should earn there way like the old days. Indy had trouble >filling the field. Certainly, not a good sign. American open-wheel >racing is in trouble... > >DanOn Mon, 31 May 2004 12:47:51 -0500, "Bill Bollinger"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>So when NASCAR has trouble filling their fields why don't we see people
>saying their series is in trouble?
>
>
Because their TV ratings are up, their revenue is up, and they've got
a long term TV deal. Add to all that the amount of money that people
pony out for NASCAR (TM) goods and the large crowds they have at the
racetrack, NASCAR is in great shape. It only trails the NFL in
popularity.
The problems that they're experiencing in filling the fields isn't due
to either a lack of qualified racers or teams, it's a lack of
sponsorship of race teams. It's more or less a coment on the ability
or willingness of businesses to put their names on the sides of
racecars brought on by the state of the economy as a whole (and the
fact that companies that can foot the bill want a proven winner - most
of those are already taken).
If the IRL didn't have the Indy 500, 1) they wouldn't exist in the
first place, 2) they'd be in just as precarious a position that champ
cars is in 3) they wouldn't have a broadcast TV deal either.
Traditionally there are always a few cars that go home from Indy
before the race starts due to not qualifying. NASCAR's big event -
the Daytona 500 hasn't had that problem so far. Some of the other
events have had problems filling the field, but not the 500 - it's
always sent a few home early.
Really, it gets down to the TV ratings. Over what the 500 drew 10
years ago and yesterday, that's the measurment of the health of the
series. Perhaps it's not the best measure of the health of a series,
but for the execs, that's what they use.
Here's to better times...
Mike
On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:46:40 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
I have. All I ever see is them fueling and putting new tires on.
It's actually rather impressive from a technical point of view, but I
never see them make any adjustments to the car. It seems that all the
pit strategy is thought out in advance rather than developed over the
course of the race, such as is done in oval racing.
Try passing at over 200 mph. That does take skill as well. One wrong
move and at least 2 cars are done for.
Really, I'd like to see Shumi at Indy in the 500. No more super-team
to back him up with a super-car. 200 laps in a realatively equal car
with just the difference in how well prepared the team is for the race
and how well Shumi can call for adjustments. I think he'd do well,
but I think he'd find it a lot more difficult that he'd imagine. It
would be wonderful to see.
For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important
that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently)
the odds of you winning go down dramatically. The disparity in
equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with
only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset. Not a lot of fun for
me.
Artificially set up? How so? I described passing in general, not
limiting myself to any form of racing. It holds true in karts, stock
cars, sprints, touring cars, open wheels, anything short of rally
(where you don't have 2 cars in the same stretch of road - at least
not by design).
I like my ovals and I like them on asphalt. That's my choice.
Occasionally I like to see a road course being used by cars designed
to run on them (ie. not stock cars) where a single manufacture isn't
allowed to dominate (ie. F1) through sheer engineering/ $. That's my
preference. Others might (do) like what I don't, and that's their
choice. Good for them. But to knock NASCAR/Indycar for their style
is childish at best - particularly if it's just because you don't like
them.
Mike
Quoted text (38 lines)
> >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:17:37 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> >Mike Donnelly Jr wrote: >> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. >Pathetic... >> > >> >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. >> > >> > >> >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck... >> > >> > >> > > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the >> >> weather. >> > >> > >> >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable >> >channel), this was Boredom City guys. >> >> As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing. >> Typical, but regretable. The challenge in oval racing isn't sight >> seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of >> 200 (in this case) laps. > >Same as in F1, except you might have 15 corners to get absolutely perfect, >every lap, with the added difficulty of actual (and massive) braking and >acceleration. > > Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the >> action. The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit >> strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race. > >Try watching an F1 car pit.Quoted text (8 lines)
>> >Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actually up >> >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked pretty >> >boring to me, sorry. >> > >> >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), > >But in F1 a pass actually means you've done something impressive and which >requires skill.Quoted text (9 lines)
>> >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;) > >> Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're >> passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mention how >> you do it. > >You're describing a pass in F1. Passing in NASCAR or Indy is far easier than >in F1. Get in the draft and then shoot by. Those series are artificially set >up for a lot of passing.On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:49 -0500, "Bill Bollinger"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>Yah, kind of like when Newman spun Andretti tonight in the CC 600.
Eh, wasn't really thinking of that at all.
I was thinking more of the 3 big driving strategies that seemed to
dominate the race:
1. last minute dive bomb passes - i.e. "well we're entering the corner
and I'm not next to you yet, but I'm going to squeeze in there anyway"
2. last minute chop blocks - i.e. "wait you're trying to pass me?
I'll force you down to the inside wall" - bonus points for the
multiple times I saw someone do this when they were the high car in a
3-wide situation
3. simply driving straight into the wall - i.e. "welp, my car won't
turn, so I guess instead of riding it out and adding some front wing
on my next stop I'll just plow straight into the wall"
Jason
On Mon, 31 May 2004 18:06:24 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>The overiding factor was sheer lack of driving skills and lack of
>preparation by 2/3rds of the field. This race reminded me of a bad pickup
>race. I dont recall too many pass attempts that didnt end in a yellow flag.
The preparation part was there with the backmarkers who had no
business being in the field and would have never even attempted the
race if there hadn't been a shortage of drivers. Otherwise I think
you're pretty much spot on.
I have no idea why F1 teams look at IRL drivers as potential driving
candidates. Guys like Scott Dixon and Tora Takagi couldn't even
compete in the post-split talent-thin CART series, and they're regular
front runners (Dixon being a champion obviously as well) in the IRL.
If I were an F1 team looking for a driver I think I'd be more likely
to look at NASCAR/Trans Am/CART/ALMS since it seems that's where the
best drivers in America typically end up. Or I'd just grab someone
like Bernd Schneider who deserved to be in a competitive car 10 years
ago..
Jason
Bill Bollinger wrote:
Well, lemme get *this* little fact straight then, mr. Logic:
the organisers risked to stage a race when there were more than 20
*tornadoes* registered around Indy? How's that for safety then, anyway?
If there's tornado warning for the day, you cancel the day, and try the
day after.
If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming
down the track. Apart from that, you drive slower. Just slow enough so
you can make it. If the rain gets worse, you drive slower still. Until
the point where you just can't see where you're going and things are
really getting unsafe beyond normality.
It's been done like this for, well, always here in Europe, I can't see
why it can't be done in the States, really. It's just a bit of water and
the track is just a bit more slippery, that's all. Can't drive as fast
then, you say? Well drive slower then, that's what you do!
Regards, Rudy
--------------------
GPLRank: -22
Quoted text (7 lines)
>>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. >>(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing >>out of the cockpits! > There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding > Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killed then > get your facts straight and STFU.Mike Donnelly Jr wrote:
>>Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable
>>channel), this was Boredom City guys.
> As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing.
> Typical, but regretable.
Yeah, right. You're presuming rather a lot, yourself. I've never driven
on an American oval, true, but as someone who beat the Nascar 4 AI at
100% strength several times, and has driven both NR2002 and 2003
flat-out, I'm not entirely ignorant.
> often and with more patience - one tiny slip and you're in the fence,
> and quite possibly hurt seriously and sometimes killed.
Eeeh, yeah, *and*? That's motor racing, been like that for about 100
years. It's not like that couldn't happen in 1911.
Risk is part of racing. If you can't handle it, don't race - it's that
simple.
>>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
> Once again, your ignorance makes itself abundantly clear. In order to
> get those high speeds and traction a treadless racing tire is used
> (aka a racing slick or just slick). When the rain comes out, it's
> foolhardy at best to race on one.
Then put on rain tyres for pete's sake.. That's what they're for. Like I
said, you can race in rain, you just have to drive slower! If you can
only race in perfect weather, why bother... No, I don't expect the
drivers to go flat-out on a damp track, but who cares, really -
finishing first is the point of a race, not trying to put a new lap
record on when the track's still wet.
> race. The pace car isn't there for show, it's there for a reason -
> it's not safe to let unprotected safety workers out there with fast
> moving cars.
Agreed. Nevertheless, the yellows dominated the race, not the racing!
Regards, Rudy
--------------------
GPLRank: -22
Do you realize that the reason for most of these is because of the downforce
and engine package changes? I think you would see each of these type of
moves at any Dega/Tona race in NASCAR.
"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (23 lines)
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:49 -0500, "Bill Bollinger" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Yah, kind of like when Newman spun Andretti tonight in the CC 600. > > Eh, wasn't really thinking of that at all. > > I was thinking more of the 3 big driving strategies that seemed to > dominate the race: > > 1. last minute dive bomb passes - i.e. "well we're entering the corner > and I'm not next to you yet, but I'm going to squeeze in there anyway" > > 2. last minute chop blocks - i.e. "wait you're trying to pass me? > I'll force you down to the inside wall" - bonus points for the > multiple times I saw someone do this when they were the high car in a > 3-wide situation > > 3. simply driving straight into the wall - i.e. "welp, my car won't > turn, so I guess instead of riding it out and adding some front wing > on my next stop I'll just plow straight into the wall" > > JasonMike Donnelly Jr wrote:
> For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important
> that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently)
> the odds of you winning go down dramatically. The disparity in
> equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with
> only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset. Not a lot of fun for
> me.
While this is true, (and for some of us is what makes F1 great, that the
teams are constantly trying to make their car the best in the field, not
just the same as every other car), a lot more of Ferrari's success in
this case is Schumacher than the car, I believe. Rubens drives the
same car, and the BAR Hondas seem to be able to keep up quite well, and
last year, the Williams and McLarens weren't having a hard time keeping
up either.
That, of course, has changed a bit, especially McLaren...
Here's what would happen if they raced in the rain:
All the cars would wreck, Sarah Fisher would win and everyone in here would
still be bitching cats and dogs on how they should have stopped the race,
lol.
"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:c9gl2p$4dg$[email hidden]...
then
Quoted text (8 lines)
> Bill Bollinger wrote: > > >>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. > >>(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing > >>out of the cockpits! > > > There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding > > Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killedQuoted text (25 lines)
> > get your facts straight and STFU. > > Well, lemme get *this* little fact straight then, mr. Logic: > > the organisers risked to stage a race when there were more than 20 > *tornadoes* registered around Indy? How's that for safety then, anyway? > > If there's tornado warning for the day, you cancel the day, and try the > day after. > > If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming > down the track. Apart from that, you drive slower. Just slow enough so > you can make it. If the rain gets worse, you drive slower still. Until > the point where you just can't see where you're going and things are > really getting unsafe beyond normality. > > It's been done like this for, well, always here in Europe, I can't see > why it can't be done in the States, really. It's just a bit of water and > the track is just a bit more slippery, that's all. Can't drive as fast > then, you say? Well drive slower then, that's what you do! > > Regards, Rudy > -------------------- > GPLRank: -22 >
"Swervo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> > For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important
> > that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently)
> > the odds of you winning go down dramatically.
Unless your name is Rubens Barrichello. In that case you *do* drive a
Ferrari, and yet your odds of winning are dramatically low.
Regards, Hans
> Remember Bill this is Indy. The Greatest Spectacle in Racing.
>Daytona had no trouble getting 43 cars for their premier event. The
>short fields came after that at the smaller tracks.
But, fielding an Indycar team probably costs a lot more than fielding a NASCAR
team. So financial woes hit open-wheel more than NASCAR.
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
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"Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:39Ruc.105517$[email hidden]:
They race on asphalt short ovals in Britain and Holland every weekend, rain
or no rain, but I'm guessing that's not what you mean...
F1 also raced at Indy in the rain, which, while not using the oval
completely, certainly didn't lack for speed in the wet when on the oval
part. If they can do it...
cheers
John
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:c9glmp$kqh$[email hidden]... > Asphalt Oval racing is not done in the rain anywhere in the world last > I checked. None of the tire companies make wet weather tires for > asphalt oval racing. Nascar has rain tires for Watkins Glen and Sears > Point, but they choose not to implement it as this time. Since those > are the only 2 races they could actually run in the rain, the > drivers/car/and the teams really arent setup for it. > > >
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> They race on asphalt short ovals in Britain and Holland every weekend,rain
> or no rain, but I'm guessing that's not what you mean...
What types of cars are they? Anything like 800HP, 3400lb cars with
relatively narrow tires? I would have to assume no, but I have no idea so
you'll have to enlighten me.
Thats only one turn of the oval, so the rain tires do take more abuse at
Indy than pretty much any other F1 circuit, but it isnt anything like
constantly pulling the treads off one side of the tire.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > F1 also raced at Indy in the rain, which, while not using the oval > completely, certainly didn't lack for speed in the wet when on the oval > part. If they can do it... > > cheers > JohnQuoted text (35 lines)
>From: [email hidden] (EldredP) >Date: 5/31/2004 11:11 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <[email hidden]> > >>"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>news:c9ebk8$n99$[email hidden]... >>> Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. >>> (In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing >>> out of the cockpits! I never got this obsession with Americans stopping >>> the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is part of >>> racing, never mind that it makes things more lively sometimes.) >> >> >>There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding >>Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killed then >>get your facts straight and STFU. > >I never heard ANY mention of tornadoes during the telecast. So, even I >wasn't >aware of them, and I live in Michigan. I think we can cut Rudy(from the >Netherlands) a little slack. > >Eldred >-- >http://www.umich.edu/~epickett >Screamers League >IICC League >GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 >Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 >Hist. +82.34 MoH:na >N2k3 rank:in progress >Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin >Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro >US East >Quoted text (22 lines)
>From: Ruud Dingemans [email hidden] >Date: 6/1/2004 5:11 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <c9gl2p$4dg$[email hidden]> > >Bill Bollinger wrote: > >>>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake. >>>(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing >>>out of the cockpits! > >> There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding >> Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killed then >> get your facts straight and STFU. > >Well, lemme get *this* little fact straight then, mr. Logic: > >the organisers risked to stage a race when there were more than 20 >*tornadoes* registered around Indy? How's that for safety then, anyway? > >If there's tornado warning for the day, you cancel the day, and try the >day after. >Quoted text (9 lines)
>It's been done like this for, well, always here in Europe, I can't see >why it can't be done in the States, really. It's just a bit of water and >the track is just a bit more slippery, that's all. Can't drive as fast >then, you say? Well drive slower then, that's what you do! > >Regards, Rudy >-------------------- >GPLRank: -22 >Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
> ...Toyota will be here [at NASCAR] in just a
> couple more years. That will kill half the Dodge teams. ...
>
Since the engine makers decide who lives/dies/drives in
Indy/IRL, it seems likely the same "Internationalization"
thing will happen to NASCAR that happened to Indy once the
Japanese engines (and cars?) start winning. How many
"bubbas" are going to come to the races when the drivers
all come from Brazil and the cars all come from Japan? It
will be interesting to see empty stands at NASCAR races too.
- Ed Kyle
Jon wrote:
> Here's what would happen if they raced in the rain:
> All the cars would wreck, Sarah Fisher would win and everyone in here would
> still be bitching cats and dogs on how they should have stopped the race,
> lol.
Well, doesn't that sound like a WHOLE lot more fun & spectacle, then?
That's a race people would still talk about in ooh, say 50 years, unlike
the current one! ;)
Regards, Rudy
--------------------
GPLRank: -22
>>>>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
>>>>(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing
>>>>out of the cockpits!
"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:c9j6g2$ofk$[email hidden]...
> ...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the
> circumstances. That seems to be a concept American race fans find
> almost impossible to grasp ;)
Ruud:
Beyond the safety concerns, I think a lot of it is just cultural differences
or "it's just how we've always done it."
Oval racing has traditionally not run in the rain, short track or
superspeedway, dirt or asphalt.
Road racing is no different than Europe. The only time I've personally seen
road racing halted was out of concern for the course workers when lightning
was in the area.
-jde
EldredP wrote:
>>"Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>
>>>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
It was a hell of a lot more than 'a little rain.
> I never heard ANY mention of tornadoes during the telecast. So, even I wasn't
> aware of them, and I live in Michigan. I think we can cut Rudy(from the
> Netherlands) a little slack.
>
> Eldred
Eldred,
By the time the race began, most of Indiana was under a tornado watch.
Half an hour later, a tornado was on the ground SE of Terre Haute (~35
miles from IMS) and was moving NE towards Indy. I remember watching the
Wunderground NEXRAD loop with one eye, and watching Paul Page talk about
'showers' moving into the area with the other.
Later that evening the NBA playoffs went ahead as scheduled, nevermid
the tornado warning issued for Indianapolis.
Rather than face the very real danger severe weather presented Sunday,
sports organisations and the TV media choose to sweep the issue under
the rug. You've probably heard the phrase 'tombstone technology'
regarding the FAA's habit of understating/rationalising flight dangers
until the problem causes a crash. Only then is something done. Sunday,
two engines fell off the plane - disaster was at hand. Yet, since it
landed safely, "it's no biggie."
Feel free to drop into
http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=22260#22260
for a first hand account from a race attendee. Hear what the organisers
did and did NOT tell the fans.
I realise that calling the race on account of severe weather (that may
not deveolop) is a hell of a decision to make. All I ask is that the
media and sports organisations come clean and tell Joe Race Fan the
truth of the situation.
-Greg
J. Todd Wasson wrote:
> There is no such thing as a "tornado warning" until one has actually been
> spotted. That morning there was some rain and a couple of fronts came through,
> but there wasn't any sign that early in the morning of anything serious coming
> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn't start
> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I think).
As early as the 29th, it was clear that conditions over the Ohio Valley
would be VERY favorable for severe weather. By mid morning Sunday, well
before any storms actuall formed, conditions were even better, and most
of Indiana was under a tornado watch. When the first storms did form,
many of them just exploded, putting tornadoes on the ground in short
order. As a noobie armchair storm chaser, from what I saw Sunday
morning, I'd have called the race.
We've been very lucky in that a strong tornado hasn't clobbered a
sporting event. When it finally happens it will kill dozens, hundreds,
possibly thousands.
-Greg
J. Todd Wasson wrote:
> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn't start
> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I think).
Ok.
>>If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming
> It's too dangerous on super speedways. These guys are doing 220mph pulling
> around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concrete wall right
> on the edge. Running in the rain would be suicide.
...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the
circumstances. That seems to be a concept American race fans find
almost impossible to grasp ;)
Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes,
but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even
on the N�rburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy
look like kindergarten.
Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as
fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you
drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver,
any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when
the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on
Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge.
At least when it rains you'll drive so much slower it won't be much of a
problem if you slam into it <grin>
(Of course, you could also put the wall 300 ft further back and finally
install a decent run-off area... It's not like running on Indy in the
dry isn't somewhat dangerous already.)
Regards, Rudy
--------------------
GPLRank: -22
Quoted text (7 lines)
>Eldred, > >By the time the race began, most of Indiana was under a tornado watch. >Half an hour later, a tornado was on the ground SE of Terre Haute (~35 >miles from IMS) and was moving NE towards Indy. I remember watching the >Wunderground NEXRAD loop with one eye, and watching Paul Page talk about >'showers' moving into the area with the other.Depends on if Shumi's car makes it the distance or not. If he has
problems, you've got a win coming up - unless you have problems too.
Mike
On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:37:16 +0200, "Hans de Heer"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (12 lines)
> >"Swervo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> > For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important >> > that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently) >> > the odds of you winning go down dramatically. > >Unless your name is Rubens Barrichello. In that case you *do* drive a >Ferrari, and yet your odds of winning are dramatically low. > >Regards, Hans >On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 02:20:50 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]>
wrote:
At that point, why bother racing? We watch for the speed, if a 'race'
doesn't have that, then what's the point? Might as well go across
town to see the locals race.
>Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes,
>but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even
>on the N�rburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy
>look like kindergarten.
Racing in the rain may be fine over there, we're just not about to do
that crap on ovals over here. Too many drivers would die, casual fans
would be horrified, and racing would come to an abrupt end.
I'm sure that there are technical reasons that y'all do it in Europe,
we've just chosen not to go that route for whatever the reasons are.
Accept it, because you're not going to change it.
Run-off area??? What the heck is that? You don't have run-off areas
for ovals. The closest thing you have is the retaining wall
*designed* to keep cars from going off the track (and into the
stands). As to putting the wall 300 feet back, no chance.
This isn't Europe. Thank God.
Mike
Quoted text (16 lines)
>J. Todd Wasson wrote: > >> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn't start >> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I think). > >Ok. > >>>If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming > >> It's too dangerous on super speedways. These guys are doing 220mph pulling >> around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concrete wall right >> on the edge. Running in the rain would be suicide. > >...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the >circumstances. That seems to be a concept American race fans find >almost impossible to grasp ;)Quoted text (15 lines)
>Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as >fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you >drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver, >any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when >the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on >Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge. >At least when it rains you'll drive so much slower it won't be much of a >problem if you slam into it <grin> > >(Of course, you could also put the wall 300 ft further back and finally >install a decent run-off area... It's not like running on Indy in the >dry isn't somewhat dangerous already.)They only folks I know of that can tell you for sure are Roger Penske
and Chip Ganassi. They've got at least one of each. Given the fewer
number of events that Indycars have, it might cost more per event, but
the overall budget is probably close. I saw on Inside Nextel Cup
monday where they had RIchard Childress on they were talking about the
cost of doing one race and the drivers guestimated as being $250,000.
Richard chimed in and said it's closer to $400,000.
Thing is, if RC is spending $400K, then you know Chip & Roger are
spending *more*. As to the Indcar program, I haven't heard the
numbers on that since about '96. But that was only the cost of the
equipment itself. There was no mention of the personell costs.
Mike
On 01 Jun 2004 16:54:56 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:
Quoted text (8 lines)
>> Remember Bill this is Indy. The Greatest Spectacle in Racing. >>Daytona had no trouble getting 43 cars for their premier event. The >>short fields came after that at the smaller tracks. > >But, fielding an Indycar team probably costs a lot more than fielding a NASCAR >team. So financial woes hit open-wheel more than NASCAR. > >Eldredwe watch rally cars drive on snow and ice.
because they can.
pez
"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 02:20:50 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]>
> wrote:
>
> >J. Todd Wasson wrote:
> >
> >> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn'tstart
> >> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag Ithink).
> >
> >Ok.
> >
> >>>If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming
> >
> >> It's too dangerous on super speedways. These guys are doing 220mphpulling
> >> around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concretewall right
Quoted text (48 lines)
> >> on the edge. Running in the rain would be suicide. > > > >...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the > >circumstances. That seems to be a concept American race fans find > >almost impossible to grasp ;) > > At that point, why bother racing? We watch for the speed, if a 'race' > doesn't have that, then what's the point? Might as well go across > town to see the locals race. > > >Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes, > >but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even > >on the N�rburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy > >look like kindergarten. > > Racing in the rain may be fine over there, we're just not about to do > that crap on ovals over here. Too many drivers would die, casual fans > would be horrified, and racing would come to an abrupt end. > > I'm sure that there are technical reasons that y'all do it in Europe, > we've just chosen not to go that route for whatever the reasons are. > Accept it, because you're not going to change it. > > >Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as > >fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you > >drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver, > >any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when > >the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on > >Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge. > > > > >At least when it rains you'll drive so much slower it won't be much of a > >problem if you slam into it <grin> > > > >(Of course, you could also put the wall 300 ft further back and finally > >install a decent run-off area... It's not like running on Indy in the > >dry isn't somewhat dangerous already.) > > Run-off area??? What the heck is that? You don't have run-off areas > for ovals. The closest thing you have is the retaining wall > *designed* to keep cars from going off the track (and into the > stands). As to putting the wall 300 feet back, no chance. > > This isn't Europe. Thank God. > > Mike >you dont see them adjust the cars much during pit stops because of the
amount of changes that the drivers can make to the cars whilst on track.
the diff settings being the biggest.
they do change front wing angles in the pits.
pez
"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
perfect,
up
> >> >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it lookedpretty
> >> >boring to me, sorry.
> >> >
> >> >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1),
> >
> >But in F1 a pass actually means you've done something impressive andwhich
than
> >in F1. Get in the draft and then shoot by. Those series are artificiallyset
Quoted text (32 lines)
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:46:40 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > > >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:17:37 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> >Mike Donnelly Jr wrote: > >> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. > >Pathetic... > >> > > >> >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. > >> > > >> > > >> >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck... > >> > > >> > > >> > > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the > >> >> weather. > >> > > >> > > >> >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable > >> >channel), this was Boredom City guys. > >> > >> As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing. > >> Typical, but regretable. The challenge in oval racing isn't sight > >> seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of > >> 200 (in this case) laps. > > > >Same as in F1, except you might have 15 corners to get absolutelyQuoted text (18 lines)
> >every lap, with the added difficulty of actual (and massive) braking and > >acceleration. > > > > > Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the > >> action. The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit > >> strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race. > > > >Try watching an F1 car pit. > > I have. All I ever see is them fueling and putting new tires on. > It's actually rather impressive from a technical point of view, but I > never see them make any adjustments to the car. It seems that all the > pit strategy is thought out in advance rather than developed over the > course of the race, such as is done in oval racing. > > > >> >Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actuallyQuoted text (26 lines)
> >requires skill. > > Try passing at over 200 mph. That does take skill as well. One wrong > move and at least 2 cars are done for. > > Really, I'd like to see Shumi at Indy in the 500. No more super-team > to back him up with a super-car. 200 laps in a realatively equal car > with just the difference in how well prepared the team is for the race > and how well Shumi can call for adjustments. I think he'd do well, > but I think he'd find it a lot more difficult that he'd imagine. It > would be wonderful to see. > > For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important > that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently) > the odds of you winning go down dramatically. The disparity in > equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with > only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset. Not a lot of fun for > me. > > >> >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;) > > > >> Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're > >> passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mention how > >> you do it. > > > >You're describing a pass in F1. Passing in NASCAR or Indy is far easierQuoted text (19 lines)
> >up for a lot of passing. > > Artificially set up? How so? I described passing in general, not > limiting myself to any form of racing. It holds true in karts, stock > cars, sprints, touring cars, open wheels, anything short of rally > (where you don't have 2 cars in the same stretch of road - at least > not by design). > > I like my ovals and I like them on asphalt. That's my choice. > Occasionally I like to see a road course being used by cars designed > to run on them (ie. not stock cars) where a single manufacture isn't > allowed to dominate (ie. F1) through sheer engineering/ $. That's my > preference. Others might (do) like what I don't, and that's their > choice. Good for them. But to knock NASCAR/Indycar for their style > is childish at best - particularly if it's just because you don't like > them. > > Mike >On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:57:30 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr
<[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip antecedents]
I thought one technical reason was that the treaded tires
would shred because of all the lateral G's, and hence
wouldn't last more than a few laps...
John DiFool
Quoted text (9 lines)
> >Racing in the rain may be fine over there, we're just not about to do >that crap on ovals over here. Too many drivers would die, casual fans >would be horrified, and racing would come to an abrupt end. > >I'm sure that there are technical reasons that y'all do it in Europe, >we've just chosen not to go that route for whatever the reasons are. >Accept it, because you're not going to change it. >Mitch_A wrote:
> It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. Pathetic...
>
> Mitch
>
>
Agreed. A big snooze-fest. Fortunately, the next race is at Texas so
there might actually *be* some racing going on.
"John DiFool" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Correct John, though most of the others here seem to ignoring or just not
reading the posts that actually talk about that exact issue.
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > I thought one technical reason was that the treaded tires > would shred because of all the lateral G's, and hence > wouldn't last more than a few laps... > > John DiFool > >Quoted text (27 lines)
>From: Ruud Dingemans [email hidden] >Date: 6/2/2004 4:20 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <c9j6g2$ofk$[email hidden]> > >J. Todd Wasson wrote: > >> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn't start >> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I >think). > >Ok. > >>>If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming > >> It's too dangerous on super speedways. These guys are doing 220mph pulling >> around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concrete wall >right >> on the edge. Running in the rain would be suicide. > >...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the >circumstances. That seems to be a concept American race fans find >almost impossible to grasp ;) > >Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes, >but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even >on the N�rburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy >look like kindergarten.Quoted text (7 lines)
>Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as >fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you >drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver, >any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when >the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on >Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge. >Quoted text (25 lines)
>From: John DiFool [email hidden] >Date: 6/2/2004 11:49 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <[email hidden]> > >On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:57:30 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >[snip antecedents] > >> >>Racing in the rain may be fine over there, we're just not about to do >>that crap on ovals over here. Too many drivers would die, casual fans >>would be horrified, and racing would come to an abrupt end. >> >>I'm sure that there are technical reasons that y'all do it in Europe, >>we've just chosen not to go that route for whatever the reasons are. >>Accept it, because you're not going to change it. >> > >I thought one technical reason was that the treaded tires >would shred because of all the lateral G's, and hence >wouldn't last more than a few laps... > > John DiFool >Quoted text (29 lines)
>From: Greg Campbell [email hidden] >Date: 6/1/2004 10:40 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <GYbvc.12978$lL1.6346@fed1read03> > >J. Todd Wasson wrote: > >> There is no such thing as a "tornado warning" until one has actually been >> spotted. That morning there was some rain and a couple of fronts came >through, >> but there wasn't any sign that early in the morning of anything serious >coming >> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn't start >> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I >think). > >As early as the 29th, it was clear that conditions over the Ohio Valley >would be VERY favorable for severe weather. By mid morning Sunday, well >before any storms actuall formed, conditions were even better, and most >of Indiana was under a tornado watch. When the first storms did form, >many of them just exploded, putting tornadoes on the ground in short >order. As a noobie armchair storm chaser, from what I saw Sunday >morning, I'd have called the race. > >We've been very lucky in that a strong tornado hasn't clobbered a >sporting event. When it finally happens it will kill dozens, hundreds, >possibly thousands. > >-Greg >Texas has been great (along with Mich) the past few years. Hopefully it'll
continue this year.
Mitch
"Skeeter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1Iovc.4$[email hidden]...
>
> Agreed. A big snooze-fest. Fortunately, the next race is at Texas so
> there might actually *be* some racing going on.
>"Skeeter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:1Iovc.4$[email hidden]...
>>
>> Agreed. A big snooze-fest. Fortunately, the next race is at Texas so
>> there might actually *be* some racing going on.
>
Interesting view. Weren't there something like 9 different leaders in the 500?
Or was that lead changes? We were watching primarily 2 cars in the middle of
the field (besides the leaders of course) and saw them change positions quite
regularily. To me, it looked like a lot of really close racing. It seemed
every two or three laps somebody made a pass going into turn 1.
Anyway, I thought it was a great race. Although must agree that it was boring
waiting for the track to dry... Twice... :-P
Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.com
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm
Check out the corner speed through Curva Grande.
In the wet.
pez
"J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
start
pulling
> >> around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concretewall
may
this
> fast, and there are generally run off areas for safety. I'm sure you'dagree
> that there's a bit more room for error in a 100mph corner than a 220mphone.
> Remember that these cars are setup with minimal downforce in order tobasically
> "barely make" the turns, plus a bit for passing maneuverability. I'm sureyou
> saw the one fellow understeer straight into a wall. I'm not sure if hehad a
> mechanical problem, but it's likely that he just got his entry wrong. Isaw
> several other close calls like that. That track is narrower than it looks:-)
>
> I sat at the turn one entry. Before the race began, there were two orthree
> guys on the track right below us with brooms and rags scrubbing one spotfor
> probably an hour. The reason? There was a crack in the track and waterkept
> seeping up through it even after the rest of the track was dry. They didthis
> in two places in turn one. Took forever! Somebody thinks it's veryimportant
> that these guys don't hit any wet spots apparently....
>
> That first crash in turn one wasn't caused by water of course, but thefellow
> just barely kissed the wall coming out of turn four. He spun right at the
> entry to turn one. He turned the wheel and the car just went aroundbefore he
> even got into the corner. Same thing happened last year as well toanother
> guy. If just barely kissing a wall can screw up the cars/tires thatbadly, I
> cringe to think what would happen if they encountered a little water atthose
> speeds.
>
> F-1 races in the rain, yes. They also have grooved rain tires and run alot
> more downforce than the cars at the Indy 500 run. They're not runningthrough
> turns as fast either (although their lateral accelerations are often much
> higher than at Indy.) Someone mentioned F-1 running at Indy in the rain.Ok.
> The infield section is quite slow and there is some runoff space there.They
> come onto the oval on the north chute and accelerate through "turn 1" anddown
> the main straight. That's about 1/4 mile. They're not doing 220mph at2.5g in
very
anyway
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >From: Ruud Dingemans [email hidden] > >Date: 6/2/2004 4:20 AM Central Daylight Time > >Message-id: <c9j6g2$ofk$[email hidden]> > > > >J. Todd Wasson wrote: > > > >> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn'tQuoted text (8 lines)
> >> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I > >think). > > > >Ok. > > > >>>If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming > > > >> It's too dangerous on super speedways. These guys are doing 220mphQuoted text (15 lines)
> >right > >> on the edge. Running in the rain would be suicide. > > > >...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the > >circumstances. That seems to be a concept American race fans find > >almost impossible to grasp ;) > > > >Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes, > >but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even > >on the N�rburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy > >look like kindergarten. > > > What's the average corner speed at Nurburgring? Granted, it'd probably be > worse to hit a patch of trees at 120 than glance off a wall at 220, so youQuoted text (12 lines)
> have a point there ;-) > > > >Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as > >fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you > >drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver, > >any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when > >the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on > >Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge. > > > > I disagree with the comparison here, really. Turns in road racing are notQuoted text (8 lines)
> that turn. Not even close. And... they're likely running a lot more > downforce on top of it. > > >At least when it rains you'll drive so much slower it won't be much of a > >problem if you slam into it <grin> > > > > Hehe, yeah, that's true. A five car race running 90mph isn't going to beQuoted text (9 lines)
> exciting though :-P > > > >(Of course, you could also put the wall 300 ft further back and finally > >install a decent run-off area... It's not like running on Indy in the > >dry isn't somewhat dangerous already.) > > > > That's not really feasible to do I think. It might not do much goodQuoted text (11 lines)
> since they'll cover that distance in a little over one second ;-) > > >Regards, Rudy > >-------------------- > >GPLRank: -22 > > > Todd Wasson > Racing Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.com > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm >That's appropriate for that type of racing. Personally, I think rally
drivers are some of the craziest racers there are. It's totally my
opinion, but the only ones crazier than the drivers are the spectators
with nothing between them and the cars. Which is why we have
retaining walls in oval racing. To keep the fast movers away from the
slow movers.
Mike
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:15:28 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (75 lines)
>we watch rally cars drive on snow and ice. > >because they can. > >pez > >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 02:20:50 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> >J. Todd Wasson wrote: >> > >> >> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn't >start >> >> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I >think). >> > >> >Ok. >> > >> >>>If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming >> > >> >> It's too dangerous on super speedways. These guys are doing 220mph >pulling >> >> around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concrete >wall right >> >> on the edge. Running in the rain would be suicide. >> > >> >...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the >> >circumstances. That seems to be a concept American race fans find >> >almost impossible to grasp ;) >> >> At that point, why bother racing? We watch for the speed, if a 'race' >> doesn't have that, then what's the point? Might as well go across >> town to see the locals race. >> >> >Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes, >> >but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even >> >on the N�rburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy >> >look like kindergarten. >> >> Racing in the rain may be fine over there, we're just not about to do >> that crap on ovals over here. Too many drivers would die, casual fans >> would be horrified, and racing would come to an abrupt end. >> >> I'm sure that there are technical reasons that y'all do it in Europe, >> we've just chosen not to go that route for whatever the reasons are. >> Accept it, because you're not going to change it. >> >> >Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as >> >fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you >> >drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver, >> >any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when >> >the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on >> >Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge. >> >> >> >> >At least when it rains you'll drive so much slower it won't be much of a >> >problem if you slam into it <grin> >> > >> >(Of course, you could also put the wall 300 ft further back and finally >> >install a decent run-off area... It's not like running on Indy in the >> >dry isn't somewhat dangerous already.) >> >> Run-off area??? What the heck is that? You don't have run-off areas >> for ovals. The closest thing you have is the retaining wall >> *designed* to keep cars from going off the track (and into the >> stands). As to putting the wall 300 feet back, no chance. >> >> This isn't Europe. Thank God. >> >> Mike >> >In all the F1 races I've seen (and I've seen a number of them), I
can't remember *ever* seeing them make a wing adjustment. I'm not
saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it. Of course,
getting the feed through the locally controlled TV feed might be part
of the problem. The cars making such adjustments might be doing so
off camera.
Mike
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:24:44 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (120 lines)
>you dont see them adjust the cars much during pit stops because of the >amount of changes that the drivers can make to the cars whilst on track. > >the diff settings being the biggest. > >they do change front wing angles in the pits. > >pez > >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:46:40 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:17:37 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Mike Donnelly Jr wrote: >> >> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. >> >Pathetic... >> >> > >> >> >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck... >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the >> >> >> weather. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable >> >> >channel), this was Boredom City guys. >> >> >> >> As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing. >> >> Typical, but regretable. The challenge in oval racing isn't sight >> >> seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of >> >> 200 (in this case) laps. >> > >> >Same as in F1, except you might have 15 corners to get absolutely >perfect, >> >every lap, with the added difficulty of actual (and massive) braking and >> >acceleration. >> >> >> > > Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the >> >> action. The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit >> >> strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race. >> > >> >Try watching an F1 car pit. >> >> I have. All I ever see is them fueling and putting new tires on. >> It's actually rather impressive from a technical point of view, but I >> never see them make any adjustments to the car. It seems that all the >> pit strategy is thought out in advance rather than developed over the >> course of the race, such as is done in oval racing. >> >> >> >> >Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actually >up >> >> >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked >pretty >> >> >boring to me, sorry. >> >> > >> >> >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), >> > >> >But in F1 a pass actually means you've done something impressive and >which >> >requires skill. >> >> Try passing at over 200 mph. That does take skill as well. One wrong >> move and at least 2 cars are done for. >> >> Really, I'd like to see Shumi at Indy in the 500. No more super-team >> to back him up with a super-car. 200 laps in a realatively equal car >> with just the difference in how well prepared the team is for the race >> and how well Shumi can call for adjustments. I think he'd do well, >> but I think he'd find it a lot more difficult that he'd imagine. It >> would be wonderful to see. >> >> For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important >> that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently) >> the odds of you winning go down dramatically. The disparity in >> equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with >> only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset. Not a lot of fun for >> me. >> >> >> >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;) >> > >> >> Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're >> >> passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mention how >> >> you do it. >> > >> >You're describing a pass in F1. Passing in NASCAR or Indy is far easier >than >> >in F1. Get in the draft and then shoot by. Those series are artificially >set >> >up for a lot of passing. >> >> Artificially set up? How so? I described passing in general, not >> limiting myself to any form of racing. It holds true in karts, stock >> cars, sprints, touring cars, open wheels, anything short of rally >> (where you don't have 2 cars in the same stretch of road - at least >> not by design). >> >> I like my ovals and I like them on asphalt. That's my choice. >> Occasionally I like to see a road course being used by cars designed >> to run on them (ie. not stock cars) where a single manufacture isn't >> allowed to dominate (ie. F1) through sheer engineering/ $. That's my >> preference. Others might (do) like what I don't, and that's their >> choice. Good for them. But to knock NASCAR/Indycar for their style >> is childish at best - particularly if it's just because you don't like >> them. >> >> Mike >> >Could very well be. I'm not going to pretend that I know, because I
don't. What I do know is we don't race on ovals in the rain and the
cited reason is simply safety.
Mike
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 16:49:42 GMT, John DiFool
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (21 lines)
>On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:57:30 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >[snip antecedents] > >> >>Racing in the rain may be fine over there, we're just not about to do >>that crap on ovals over here. Too many drivers would die, casual fans >>would be horrified, and racing would come to an abrupt end. >> >>I'm sure that there are technical reasons that y'all do it in Europe, >>we've just chosen not to go that route for whatever the reasons are. >>Accept it, because you're not going to change it. >> > >I thought one technical reason was that the treaded tires >would shred because of all the lateral G's, and hence >wouldn't last more than a few laps... > > John DiFool >there is no locally controlled F1 feed anymore.
everything comes from Bernie now.
pez
"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
and
actually
how
> >> >> you do it.
> >> >
> >> >You're describing a pass in F1. Passing in NASCAR or Indy is fareasier
> >than
> >> >in F1. Get in the draft and then shoot by. Those series areartificially
Quoted text (57 lines)
> In all the F1 races I've seen (and I've seen a number of them), I > can't remember *ever* seeing them make a wing adjustment. I'm not > saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it. Of course, > getting the feed through the locally controlled TV feed might be part > of the problem. The cars making such adjustments might be doing so > off camera. > > Mike > > > On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:24:44 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >you dont see them adjust the cars much during pit stops because of the > >amount of changes that the drivers can make to the cars whilst on track. > > > >the diff settings being the biggest. > > > >they do change front wing angles in the pits. > > > >pez > > > >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:46:40 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> >news:[email hidden]... > >> >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:17:37 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >Mike Donnelly Jr wrote: > >> >> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. > >> >Pathetic... > >> >> > > >> >> >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck... > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the > >> >> >> weather. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable > >> >> >channel), this was Boredom City guys. > >> >> > >> >> As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing. > >> >> Typical, but regretable. The challenge in oval racing isn't sight > >> >> seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of > >> >> 200 (in this case) laps. > >> > > >> >Same as in F1, except you might have 15 corners to get absolutely > >perfect, > >> >every lap, with the added difficulty of actual (and massive) brakingQuoted text (17 lines)
> >> >acceleration. > >> > >> > >> > > Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the > >> >> action. The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit > >> >> strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race. > >> > > >> >Try watching an F1 car pit. > >> > >> I have. All I ever see is them fueling and putting new tires on. > >> It's actually rather impressive from a technical point of view, but I > >> never see them make any adjustments to the car. It seems that all the > >> pit strategy is thought out in advance rather than developed over the > >> course of the race, such as is done in oval racing. > >> > >> > >> >> >Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they wereQuoted text (32 lines)
> >up > >> >> >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked > >pretty > >> >> >boring to me, sorry. > >> >> > > >> >> >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), > >> > > >> >But in F1 a pass actually means you've done something impressive and > >which > >> >requires skill. > >> > >> Try passing at over 200 mph. That does take skill as well. One wrong > >> move and at least 2 cars are done for. > >> > >> Really, I'd like to see Shumi at Indy in the 500. No more super-team > >> to back him up with a super-car. 200 laps in a realatively equal car > >> with just the difference in how well prepared the team is for the race > >> and how well Shumi can call for adjustments. I think he'd do well, > >> but I think he'd find it a lot more difficult that he'd imagine. It > >> would be wonderful to see. > >> > >> For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important > >> that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently) > >> the odds of you winning go down dramatically. The disparity in > >> equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with > >> only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset. Not a lot of fun for > >> me. > >> > >> >> >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;) > >> > > >> >> Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're > >> >> passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mentionQuoted text (22 lines)
> >set > >> >up for a lot of passing. > >> > >> Artificially set up? How so? I described passing in general, not > >> limiting myself to any form of racing. It holds true in karts, stock > >> cars, sprints, touring cars, open wheels, anything short of rally > >> (where you don't have 2 cars in the same stretch of road - at least > >> not by design). > >> > >> I like my ovals and I like them on asphalt. That's my choice. > >> Occasionally I like to see a road course being used by cars designed > >> to run on them (ie. not stock cars) where a single manufacture isn't > >> allowed to dominate (ie. F1) through sheer engineering/ $. That's my > >> preference. Others might (do) like what I don't, and that's their > >> choice. Good for them. But to knock NASCAR/Indycar for their style > >> is childish at best - particularly if it's just because you don't like > >> them. > >> > >> Mike > >> > > >On 01 Jun 2004 22:25:33 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote:
>
> I was at the race. When the rain came on the last flag, we grabbed a bratwurst
> and headed to the car. About five minutes later the emergency broadcasting
> system cut in on all the local radio stations and started announcing tornadoes
this Bratwurst you're talking of... is it fried in fat / oil or
roasted over a charcoal bbq? Just wondering how they do it over in the
U.S. ;-)
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Quoted text (18 lines)
>From: Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= [email hidden] >Date: 6/3/2004 3:12 AM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <[email hidden]> > >On 01 Jun 2004 22:25:33 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote: > >> >> I was at the race. When the rain came on the last flag, we grabbed a >bratwurst >> and headed to the car. About five minutes later the emergency broadcasting >> system cut in on all the local radio stations and started announcing >tornadoes > >this Bratwurst you're talking of... is it fried in fat / oil or >roasted over a charcoal bbq? Just wondering how they do it over in the >U.S. ;-) > >uweQuoted text (7 lines)
>From: "Pez" [email hidden] >Date: 6/2/2004 6:11 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <H8tvc.10229$[email hidden]> > >Check out the corner speed through Curva Grande. > >In the wet.Quoted text (29 lines)
>From: [email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) >Date: 6/3/2004 8:10 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <[email hidden]> > >>From: "Pez" [email hidden] >>Date: 6/2/2004 6:11 PM Central Standard Time >>Message-id: <H8tvc.10229$[email hidden]> >> >>Check out the corner speed through Curva Grande. >> >>In the wet. >From here: http://www.fantasy-f1.net/circuits.asp?circuit=40 > >Not sure how accurate this is: > >"Exiting the chicane leads to the long right-hander of the Curva Grande. >Entering at some 155mph in fourth gear, you accelerate through the corner and >reach a speed of 183mph in sixth gear on the exit. " > >That's in the dry... At Indy, guys are entering the turn at well over 220mph >(230?) (around 45% faster). And again, there's no run-off area... Double >the >speed and you're 4 times as dangerous... Doing 220 is twice as bad as 155 >;-) >F1 is also running quite a lot more downforce than IRL cars at Indy. > > > >Todd WassonMmmmm, making me want a Johnsonville soaked in beer and BBQ'd for dinner..
Mitch
"J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >
brat
> I've ever had, but it was filling :-) It definitely wasn't done on acharcoal
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >this Bratwurst you're talking of... is it fried in fat / oil or > >roasted over a charcoal bbq? Just wondering how they do it over in the > >U.S. ;-) > > > >uwe > > Hehe :-) It might have been boiled in water for all I know. Not the bestQuoted text (9 lines)
> bbq! > > > > Todd Wasson > Racing Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.com > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm >Quoted text (7 lines)
>From: "Mitch_A" [email hidden] >Date: 6/3/2004 8:39 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <ApQvc.79094$[email hidden]> > >Mmmmm, making me want a Johnsonville soaked in beer and BBQ'd for dinner.. > >MitchLet it be known that on Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:07:47 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
>there is no locally controlled F1 feed anymore.
>
>everything comes from Bernie now.
When the Australian GP focuses on Webber and the Spanish GP shows a lot of
Alonso, I'd say that the races are directed by local crews.
Let it be known that on Thu, 03 Jun 2004 05:27:17 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>In all the F1 races I've seen (and I've seen a number of them), I
>can't remember *ever* seeing them make a wing adjustment. I'm not
>saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it. Of course,
>getting the feed through the locally controlled TV feed might be part
>of the problem. The cars making such adjustments might be doing so
>off camera.
I remember reading a interview with Montoya where he mentioned that F1 cars
weren't nearly as adjustable as those in CART.
"crossbone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Let it be known that on Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:07:47 +0100, "Pez"<[email hidden]>
As Pez states, F1 has its own tv crew and tons of support vehicles etc..in
fact, the Machett, Varsha, and Hobbs talked about the *studio* at Monaco
where they actualkly broadcast the telecast worldwide from. F1 completely
controls what the entire world sees, there are no other tv cameras there...
Quoted text (8 lines)
> wrote: > > >there is no locally controlled F1 feed anymore. > > > >everything comes from Bernie now. > > When the Australian GP focuses on Webber and the Spanish GP shows a lot of > Alonso, I'd say that the races are directed by local crews.On 04 Jun 2004 02:14:17 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote:
In Germany, we have the Bratwurst division up north where people start
soaking and frying them in fat. Disgusting! The only true bratwurst
comes off a charcoal bbq here, and a friend of mine living in Hamburg
goes to the local "Schnelli" to have a real, char-coal grilled
bratwurst first thing when he visits us here in Herford, such is the
nastiness of fat-fried Bratwursts. <shudder ;->
cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Quoted text (10 lines)
>>From: "Mitch_A" [email hidden] >>Date: 6/3/2004 8:39 PM Central Standard Time >>Message-id: <ApQvc.79094$[email hidden]> >> >>Mmmmm, making me want a Johnsonville soaked in beer and BBQ'd for dinner.. >> >>Mitch > > That's one I haven't tried yet :-) >Quoted text (35 lines)
>From: Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= [email hidden] >Date: 6/4/2004 4:32 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <[email hidden]> > >On 04 Jun 2004 02:14:17 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote: >>>From: "Mitch_A" [email hidden] >>>Date: 6/3/2004 8:39 PM Central Standard Time >>>Message-id: <ApQvc.79094$[email hidden]> >>> >>>Mmmmm, making me want a Johnsonville soaked in beer and BBQ'd for dinner.. >>> >>>Mitch >> >> That's one I haven't tried yet :-) >> > >In Germany, we have the Bratwurst division up north where people start >soaking and frying them in fat. Disgusting! The only true bratwurst >comes off a charcoal bbq here, and a friend of mine living in Hamburg >goes to the local "Schnelli" to have a real, char-coal grilled >bratwurst first thing when he visits us here in Herford, such is the >nastiness of fat-fried Bratwursts. <shudder ;-> > >cheers, > >uwe > > > >-- >mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) >Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ >Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) >GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61 >On 04 Jun 2004 11:05:31 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote:
>
> Fat fried? That can't be too tasty :-o I imagine around here in Minnesota you
> might get one cooked over a gas grill, but if you want one charcoaled you
> better break out your own charcoaler. Come to think of it, I don't think I've
> ever had a brat that was cooked on one. I'm drooling thinking about it :-)
>
Lemme tell you, it's the only way. Served with a bit of mustard and a
cool beer, out in the yard on a summers evening... hmmmmm beer ;-)
Uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
>
>When the Australian GP focuses on Webber and the Spanish GP shows a lot of
>Alonso, I'd say that the races are directed by local crews.
>
>
And Hobbs & Co. usually mention the feed is provided by the local media.
Eldred
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>
>Lemme tell you, it's the only way. Served with a bit of mustard and a
>cool beer, out in the yard on a summers evening... hmmmmm beer ;-)
>
Beer? Yuck...
<g>
Eldred
--
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but not to johnny herbert, who, when he tested there, compared it to 4 curva
grandes.
dont forget too that curva grande is flat, flat out and in the lowest
downforce config they run.
pez
"J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
and
> >reach a speed of 183mph in sixth gear on the exit. "
> >
> >That's in the dry... At Indy, guys are entering the turn at well over220mph
> >(230?) (around 45% faster). And again, there's no run-off area...Double
> >the
> >speed and you're 4 times as dangerous... Doing 220 is twice as bad as155
at
> only about 65% of the speed (in the dry of course). Indy has no run offarea
> or sand traps. (I don't think Curva Grande does either though, I'm notsure)
> Anyway, I just don't see a comparison there. The difference between thetwo
Quoted text (17 lines)
> >From: [email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) > >Date: 6/3/2004 8:10 PM Central Standard Time > >Message-id: <[email hidden]> > > > >>From: "Pez" [email hidden] > >>Date: 6/2/2004 6:11 PM Central Standard Time > >>Message-id: <H8tvc.10229$[email hidden]> > >> > >>Check out the corner speed through Curva Grande. > >> > >>In the wet. > >From here: http://www.fantasy-f1.net/circuits.asp?circuit=40 > > > >Not sure how accurate this is: > > > >"Exiting the chicane leads to the long right-hander of the Curva Grande. > >Entering at some 155mph in fourth gear, you accelerate through the cornerQuoted text (14 lines)
> >;-) > >F1 is also running quite a lot more downforce than IRL cars at Indy. > > > > > > > >Todd Wasson > > Also, from the following two sources: > > http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/monza.html > http://cbs.sportsline.com/autoracing/tracks/page/indianapolis > > If I'm not mistaken, Curva Grande is 24 meters wide, while Indy is only 14 > meters. Curva Grande is 71% wider than Indy and the cars enter the cornerQuoted text (8 lines)
> scenarios is absolutely huge ( to me anyway :-P) > > > Todd Wasson > Racing Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.com > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm >have you seen the steering wheel of the ferrari?
pez
"crossbone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
cars
> weren't nearly as adjustable as those in CART.
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Let it be known that on Thu, 03 Jun 2004 05:27:17 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >In all the F1 races I've seen (and I've seen a number of them), I > >can't remember *ever* seeing them make a wing adjustment. I'm not > >saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it. Of course, > >getting the feed through the locally controlled TV feed might be part > >of the problem. The cars making such adjustments might be doing so > >off camera. > > I remember reading a interview with Montoya where he mentioned that F1Quoted text (12 lines)
>From: "Pez" [email hidden] >Date: 6/4/2004 8:57 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <Fc%vc.11186$[email hidden]> > >but not to johnny herbert, who, when he tested there, compared it to 4 curva >grandes. > >dont forget too that curva grande is flat, flat out and in the lowest >downforce config they run. > >pez >Quoted text (27 lines)
>From: Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= [email hidden] >Date: 6/4/2004 6:32 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <[email hidden]> > >On 04 Jun 2004 11:05:31 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote: > >> >> Fat fried? That can't be too tasty :-o I imagine around here in Minnesota >you >> might get one cooked over a gas grill, but if you want one charcoaled you >> better break out your own charcoaler. Come to think of it, I don't think >I've >> ever had a brat that was cooked on one. I'm drooling thinking about it :-) >> > >Lemme tell you, it's the only way. Served with a bit of mustard and a >cool beer, out in the yard on a summers evening... hmmmmm beer ;-) > >Uwe > > >-- >mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) >Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ >Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) >GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61 >On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:58:15 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>have you seen the steering wheel of the ferrari?
He was probably referring more to aero and chassis tuning than in-car
adjustments. Weight jacking and stagger and assymetrical setups are
still a novelty in F1 even after having guys like Villeneuve, Montoya,
Andretti the elder, etc come over and use them with some success.
On 04 Jun 2004 16:12:55 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote:
>
> Yummmy :-) Beer? I'll take a couple, thanks ;-)
>
Todd, drop us a line when you happen to be in our part of Germany and
I'll be happy to have you for a couple of good old westfalian brews,
even one of mine own if I happen to have it in stock then ;-)
A genuine charcoal braty to go with it, to be sure.
cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Tells you when the last time I watched a F1 race was...
Mike
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:07:47 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (147 lines)
>there is no locally controlled F1 feed anymore. > >everything comes from Bernie now. > >pez > >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In all the F1 races I've seen (and I've seen a number of them), I >> can't remember *ever* seeing them make a wing adjustment. I'm not >> saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it. Of course, >> getting the feed through the locally controlled TV feed might be part >> of the problem. The cars making such adjustments might be doing so >> off camera. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:24:44 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >you dont see them adjust the cars much during pit stops because of the >> >amount of changes that the drivers can make to the cars whilst on track. >> > >> >the diff settings being the biggest. >> > >> >they do change front wing angles in the pits. >> > >> >pez >> > >> >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:46:40 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:17:37 -0700, Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >Mike Donnelly Jr wrote: >> >> >> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into. >> >> >Pathetic... >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck... >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the >> >> >> >> weather. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable >> >> >> >channel), this was Boredom City guys. >> >> >> >> >> >> As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing. >> >> >> Typical, but regretable. The challenge in oval racing isn't sight >> >> >> seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of >> >> >> 200 (in this case) laps. >> >> > >> >> >Same as in F1, except you might have 15 corners to get absolutely >> >perfect, >> >> >every lap, with the added difficulty of actual (and massive) braking >and >> >> >acceleration. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the >> >> >> action. The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit >> >> >> strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race. >> >> > >> >> >Try watching an F1 car pit. >> >> >> >> I have. All I ever see is them fueling and putting new tires on. >> >> It's actually rather impressive from a technical point of view, but I >> >> never see them make any adjustments to the car. It seems that all the >> >> pit strategy is thought out in advance rather than developed over the >> >> course of the race, such as is done in oval racing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were >actually >> >up >> >> >> >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked >> >pretty >> >> >> >boring to me, sorry. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1), >> >> > >> >> >But in F1 a pass actually means you've done something impressive and >> >which >> >> >requires skill. >> >> >> >> Try passing at over 200 mph. That does take skill as well. One wrong >> >> move and at least 2 cars are done for. >> >> >> >> Really, I'd like to see Shumi at Indy in the 500. No more super-team >> >> to back him up with a super-car. 200 laps in a realatively equal car >> >> with just the difference in how well prepared the team is for the race >> >> and how well Shumi can call for adjustments. I think he'd do well, >> >> but I think he'd find it a lot more difficult that he'd imagine. It >> >> would be wonderful to see. >> >> >> >> For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important >> >> that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently) >> >> the odds of you winning go down dramatically. The disparity in >> >> equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with >> >> only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset. Not a lot of fun for >> >> me. >> >> >> >> >> >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;) >> >> > >> >> >> Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're >> >> >> passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mention >how >> >> >> you do it. >> >> > >> >> >You're describing a pass in F1. Passing in NASCAR or Indy is far >easier >> >than >> >> >in F1. Get in the draft and then shoot by. Those series are >artificially >> >set >> >> >up for a lot of passing. >> >> >> >> Artificially set up? How so? I described passing in general, not >> >> limiting myself to any form of racing. It holds true in karts, stock >> >> cars, sprints, touring cars, open wheels, anything short of rally >> >> (where you don't have 2 cars in the same stretch of road - at least >> >> not by design). >> >> >> >> I like my ovals and I like them on asphalt. That's my choice. >> >> Occasionally I like to see a road course being used by cars designed >> >> to run on them (ie. not stock cars) where a single manufacture isn't >> >> allowed to dominate (ie. F1) through sheer engineering/ $. That's my >> >> preference. Others might (do) like what I don't, and that's their >> >> choice. Good for them. But to knock NASCAR/Indycar for their style >> >> is childish at best - particularly if it's just because you don't like >> >> them. >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> > >> >I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the adjustments can be done over
the air in terms of electronics. That would eliminate many possible
adjustments right there. All in all, it's still comparing apples and
oranges....
Mike
On 3 Jun 2004 23:13:18 -0500, crossbone <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Quoted text (12 lines)
>Let it be known that on Thu, 03 Jun 2004 05:27:17 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>In all the F1 races I've seen (and I've seen a number of them), I >>can't remember *ever* seeing them make a wing adjustment. I'm not >>saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it. Of course, >>getting the feed through the locally controlled TV feed might be part >>of the problem. The cars making such adjustments might be doing so >>off camera. > >I remember reading a interview with Montoya where he mentioned that F1 cars >weren't nearly as adjustable as those in CART.I imagine that even having a central control, they're still going to
focus on the 'local favorite'. Makes sense.
Mike
On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 04:45:13 GMT, "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (19 lines)
> >"crossbone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Let it be known that on Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:07:47 +0100, "Pez" ><[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> >there is no locally controlled F1 feed anymore. >> > >> >everything comes from Bernie now. >> >> When the Australian GP focuses on Webber and the Spanish GP shows a lot of >> Alonso, I'd say that the races are directed by local crews. > >As Pez states, F1 has its own tv crew and tons of support vehicles etc..in >fact, the Machett, Varsha, and Hobbs talked about the *studio* at Monaco >where they actualkly broadcast the telecast worldwide from. F1 completely >controls what the entire world sees, there are no other tv cameras there... >Quoted text (27 lines)
>From: Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= [email hidden] >Date: 6/4/2004 4:11 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <[email hidden]> > >On 04 Jun 2004 16:12:55 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote: > >> >> Yummmy :-) Beer? I'll take a couple, thanks ;-) >> > >Todd, drop us a line when you happen to be in our part of Germany and >I'll be happy to have you for a couple of good old westfalian brews, >even one of mine own if I happen to have it in stock then ;-) > >A genuine charcoal braty to go with it, to be sure. > >cheers, > >uwe > > > >-- >mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) >Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ >Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) >GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
That used to be the case in F1. It got so bad that engineers were
controlling Max Engine revs/power during certain parts of a lap and
restricting power/revs at other parts of the lap. That was all banned a
couple of years ago.
F1 cars have a myriad of incar adjustments. Watch the incar cams
sometimes, the drivers are often twisting any number of knobs on the
wheel to change handling/engine performance etc.
So while you don't SEE the big wing changes like in CART or irl, you
also don't SEE the tiny adjustments from turn to turn the driver makes.
From what I have gathered over the years, the F1 engineers tend to put
less of an emphasis on driver input and rely more and more on computer
analysis.
Before you say this is a bad thing, that is pretty much the case in
Nascar now too. Take Penske South Racing for example. Ryan Newman, a
young Gun, Computer literate, Engineering degree...Smart guy.
He and his team usually have their setups worked out in advance. Very
few changes during the race. His teammate, however, is Rusty Wallace, an
old school driver who would prefer to work out his engineering challenges
by the seat of his pants. More and more though, Rusty has been
grudgingly pulled over to the computer side, but I'm sure he'll never
embrace it as whole heartedly as Newman.
Cart used to be able to change several items while on track, like
Weight Jacking and Engine mapping(performance vs Fuel Economy) but with
the Customer Ford Engines now used, all the Engine tweeking is
gone...except for the 60 seconds of 'push to pass' that overrides the rev
limiter when activated.
Nascar has ZERO incar adjustments. All that comes from driver and
crewchief talking while racing and making changes during pitstops.
Here endeth the short summary.
dh
Quoted text (7 lines)
> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the adjustments can be done over > the air in terms of electronics. That would eliminate many possible > adjustments right there. All in all, it's still comparing apples and > oranges.... > > Mike >Let it be known that on Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:53:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason
Moyer) wrote:
Exactly. Thank you, I should have been more specific.
Quoted text (8 lines)
>On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:58:15 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>have you seen the steering wheel of the ferrari? > >He was probably referring more to aero and chassis tuning than in-car >adjustments. Weight jacking and stagger and assymetrical setups are >still a novelty in F1 even after having guys like Villeneuve, Montoya, >Andretti the elder, etc come over and use them with some success.About the only NASCAR in car adjustment there is is brake bias. I
wouldn't have known that but for DW and Larry Mac. They mentioned it
a few times on air so I know it can be done. I don't think that any
game simulates that though. Not for NASCARs anyhow.
Now that I think about it, that's strange, as Indycar Racing had that
adjustment and none of the NASCAR Racing series did. Papyrus would
have known the rules and would have been able to program that in.
Makes me wonder why they skipped that.
Anyhow there is 1 in car adjustment the driver can make. Aside from
how tight the straps are... :)
Mike
On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:37:10 -0500, Dave Henrie
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (44 lines)
>Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote in >news:[email hidden]: > >> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the adjustments can be done over >> the air in terms of electronics. That would eliminate many possible >> adjustments right there. All in all, it's still comparing apples and >> oranges.... >> >> Mike >> > > That used to be the case in F1. It got so bad that engineers were >controlling Max Engine revs/power during certain parts of a lap and >restricting power/revs at other parts of the lap. That was all banned a >couple of years ago. > F1 cars have a myriad of incar adjustments. Watch the incar cams >sometimes, the drivers are often twisting any number of knobs on the >wheel to change handling/engine performance etc. > So while you don't SEE the big wing changes like in CART or irl, you >also don't SEE the tiny adjustments from turn to turn the driver makes. >From what I have gathered over the years, the F1 engineers tend to put >less of an emphasis on driver input and rely more and more on computer >analysis. > Before you say this is a bad thing, that is pretty much the case in >Nascar now too. Take Penske South Racing for example. Ryan Newman, a >young Gun, Computer literate, Engineering degree...Smart guy. >He and his team usually have their setups worked out in advance. Very >few changes during the race. His teammate, however, is Rusty Wallace, an >old school driver who would prefer to work out his engineering challenges >by the seat of his pants. More and more though, Rusty has been >grudgingly pulled over to the computer side, but I'm sure he'll never >embrace it as whole heartedly as Newman. > Cart used to be able to change several items while on track, like >Weight Jacking and Engine mapping(performance vs Fuel Economy) but with >the Customer Ford Engines now used, all the Engine tweeking is >gone...except for the 60 seconds of 'push to pass' that overrides the rev >limiter when activated. > Nascar has ZERO incar adjustments. All that comes from driver and >crewchief talking while racing and making changes during pitstops. > Here endeth the short summary. > >dh > >You're right. That's what I mean.
Mike
On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:53:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) wrote:
Quoted text (8 lines)
>On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:58:15 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>have you seen the steering wheel of the ferrari? > >He was probably referring more to aero and chassis tuning than in-car >adjustments. Weight jacking and stagger and assymetrical setups are >still a novelty in F1 even after having guys like Villeneuve, Montoya, >Andretti the elder, etc come over and use them with some success.Nascar Thunder Series has the break bias (In car) adjustment.
"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (64 lines)
> About the only NASCAR in car adjustment there is is brake bias. I > wouldn't have known that but for DW and Larry Mac. They mentioned it > a few times on air so I know it can be done. I don't think that any > game simulates that though. Not for NASCARs anyhow. > > Now that I think about it, that's strange, as Indycar Racing had that > adjustment and none of the NASCAR Racing series did. Papyrus would > have known the rules and would have been able to program that in. > Makes me wonder why they skipped that. > > Anyhow there is 1 in car adjustment the driver can make. Aside from > how tight the straps are... :) > > Mike > > > On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:37:10 -0500, Dave Henrie > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote in > >news:[email hidden]: > > > >> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the adjustments can be done over > >> the air in terms of electronics. That would eliminate many possible > >> adjustments right there. All in all, it's still comparing apples and > >> oranges.... > >> > >> Mike > >> > > > > That used to be the case in F1. It got so bad that engineers were > >controlling Max Engine revs/power during certain parts of a lap and > >restricting power/revs at other parts of the lap. That was all banned a > >couple of years ago. > > F1 cars have a myriad of incar adjustments. Watch the incar cams > >sometimes, the drivers are often twisting any number of knobs on the > >wheel to change handling/engine performance etc. > > So while you don't SEE the big wing changes like in CART or irl, you > >also don't SEE the tiny adjustments from turn to turn the driver makes. > >From what I have gathered over the years, the F1 engineers tend to put > >less of an emphasis on driver input and rely more and more on computer > >analysis. > > Before you say this is a bad thing, that is pretty much the case in > >Nascar now too. Take Penske South Racing for example. Ryan Newman, a > >young Gun, Computer literate, Engineering degree...Smart guy. > >He and his team usually have their setups worked out in advance. Very > >few changes during the race. His teammate, however, is Rusty Wallace, an > >old school driver who would prefer to work out his engineering challenges > >by the seat of his pants. More and more though, Rusty has been > >grudgingly pulled over to the computer side, but I'm sure he'll never > >embrace it as whole heartedly as Newman. > > Cart used to be able to change several items while on track, like > >Weight Jacking and Engine mapping(performance vs Fuel Economy) but with > >the Customer Ford Engines now used, all the Engine tweeking is > >gone...except for the 60 seconds of 'push to pass' that overrides the rev > >limiter when activated. > > Nascar has ZERO incar adjustments. All that comes from driver and > >crewchief talking while racing and making changes during pitstops. > > Here endeth the short summary. > > > >dh > > > > >On 05 Jun 2004 02:33:47 GMT, J. Todd Wasson wrote:
>
> Mighty kind of you, Uwe :-) I'll be over that side of the sea at the end of
> this month. Not sure if I'll make it out of the Netherlands though. We'll see
Be sure to let us know, mate. Write email to the address in the sig if
you're in this part of the country!
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
"Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:y66vc.19418$[email hidden]:
Brisca F1 Stock cars run unlimited capacity V8s- usually either small
block chevy or big block dodge motors. They race on dirt and asphalt,
but they don't get up to the kind of speeds an Indy Car is capable of,
for sure.
I'm sure they could race ovals on wet weather tyres if they wanted to,
every driver has full control of the rightmost pedal at the end of the
day, and tyres can be made that will do the job if required.
JM
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> They race on asphalt short ovals in Britain and Holland every >> weekend, > rain >> or no rain, but I'm guessing that's not what you mean... > > What types of cars are they? Anything like 800HP, 3400lb cars with > relatively narrow tires? I would have to assume no, but I have no > idea so you'll have to enlighten me.Quoted text (11 lines)
>> >> F1 also raced at Indy in the rain, which, while not using the oval >> completely, certainly didn't lack for speed in the wet when on the >> oval part. If they can do it... >> >> cheers >> John > > Thats only one turn of the oval, so the rain tires do take more abuse > at Indy than pretty much any other F1 circuit, but it isnt anything > like constantly pulling the treads off one side of the tire.On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 16:24:23 GMT, JM
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Yeah, but at that point, it would be a snooze-fest. Besides, who
would be in the stands to watch?
Mike
Quoted text (39 lines)
>"Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in >news:y66vc.19418$[email hidden]: > >> >> "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> >>> They race on asphalt short ovals in Britain and Holland every >>> weekend, >> rain >>> or no rain, but I'm guessing that's not what you mean... >> >> What types of cars are they? Anything like 800HP, 3400lb cars with >> relatively narrow tires? I would have to assume no, but I have no >> idea so you'll have to enlighten me. > >Brisca F1 Stock cars run unlimited capacity V8s- usually either small >block chevy or big block dodge motors. They race on dirt and asphalt, >but they don't get up to the kind of speeds an Indy Car is capable of, >for sure. > >>> >>> F1 also raced at Indy in the rain, which, while not using the oval >>> completely, certainly didn't lack for speed in the wet when on the >>> oval part. If they can do it... >>> >>> cheers >>> John >> >> Thats only one turn of the oval, so the rain tires do take more abuse >> at Indy than pretty much any other F1 circuit, but it isnt anything >> like constantly pulling the treads off one side of the tire. > >I'm sure they could race ovals on wet weather tyres if they wanted to, >every driver has full control of the rightmost pedal at the end of the >day, and tyres can be made that will do the job if required. > >JM >Quoted text (10 lines)
>>I'm sure they could race ovals on wet weather tyres if they wanted to, >>every driver has full control of the rightmost pedal at the end of the >>day, and tyres can be made that will do the job if required. >> >>JM >> > >Yeah, but at that point, it would be a snooze-fest. Besides, who >would be in the stands to watch? >Well, the mentally retarded do need some form of entertainment they
can keep up with.
Mike
On 09 Jun 2004 01:04:18 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:
Quoted text (15 lines)
>>>I'm sure they could race ovals on wet weather tyres if they wanted to, >>>every driver has full control of the rightmost pedal at the end of the >>>day, and tyres can be made that will do the job if required. >>> >>>JM >>> >> >>Yeah, but at that point, it would be a snooze-fest. Besides, who >>would be in the stands to watch? >> > >People watch lawnmower racing. What do they go, 7-8 mph? >:-) > >Eldred"EldredP" wrote:
We'll all watch you, Eldred, to see if you lift for the turns :)
