Grand Prix II / MS CART

I have never played Grand Prix II and am looking for a general comparision between these 2 sims. Thanks.

>I have never played Grand Prix II and am looking for a general >comparision between these 2 sims. Thanks. ======== Having played GP2 extensively, and the CPR demo a few hours: ** CPR graphics are dazzling and adequately fast on my 200 MHz MMX with 3DFX. (Ignore the sour grapes you might read elsewhere.) I'm able to drive comfortably with full details everywhere, including the mirrors. I'll post the frame rate as soon as I figure out how to get it. GP2 does not take advantage of the hardware accelerator. ** GP2 is DOS-based, and not subject to Win95's game controller peculiarities. I have never been able to use the gas/brake on TM T1 and GranPrix wheels in Windows, beginning as long ago as MTM. (I tried many, many variations: T1 with and without adapter; ditto the GP. Tried the GP with T1 pedals, CH pedals, and without pedals; each time with and without adapter, each time selecting between Joystick and Racecar controller, each time toggling Enable throttle control. It don't work in Win95 for me. Did I mention I did this with the T1 and CH pedals? No permutation or combination worked.) GP2, OTOH, allows you to choose which direction on which axis does what. This works best, and covers any peculiarities in equipment. ** GP2 models and communicates tire grip exceptionally well (compared to say ICR2 and NCR2). I am always confident that I am right on the edge of the envelope into, around, and out of turns. (I prove this to myself from time to time by pressing just the tiniest bit harder on gas or brake, with the expected resulting loss of traction.) CPR likewise communicates this very well. I'm guessing a bit here, since I'm crippled by using on-off buttons for gas/brakes in CPR. The feel is very good, though, and I can feel when I should "pulse" the toggles harder or softer. ** GP2 setup options are legion; CPR looks similarly complete. ** GP2 menus take some getting used to. CPR option menus will be more familiar to those used to CUA. I was frustrated enough early on with GP2 to shelf the game for some months. It worked well enough once I started finding things to like, and how to get to them. ** CPR has exceptional texture mapped graphics; GP2 is cartoonish, but not garishly so. Both feel and drive great. I'll buy CPR if and when I figure out what to do about the throttle. (While I'm ***ing: I also don't get proportional throttle control in MS driving games using MS FF Pro, MS Sidewinder, TM throttle, generic joysticks, etc. I haven't tried the CH VP Pro, but I hardly see the point. The Win95 game controller simply sucks with MS games; ICR95 works without problems.) Michael.

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> >I have never played Grand Prix II and am looking for a general > >comparision between these 2 sims. Thanks. > ======== > Having played GP2 extensively, and the CPR demo a few hours: > ** CPR graphics are dazzling and adequately fast on my 200 MHz MMX with > 3DFX. (Ignore the sour grapes you might read elsewhere.) I'm able to drive > comfortably with full details everywhere, including the mirrors. I'll post > the frame rate as soon as I figure out how to get it. GP2 does not take > advantage of the hardware accelerator. > ** GP2 is DOS-based, and not subject to Win95's game controller > peculiarities. I have never been able to use the gas/brake on TM T1 and > GranPrix wheels in Windows, beginning as long ago as MTM. (I tried many, > many variations: T1 with and without adapter; ditto the GP. Tried the GP > with T1 pedals, CH pedals, and without pedals; each time with and without > adapter, each time selecting between Joystick and Racecar controller, each > time toggling Enable throttle control. It don't work in Win95 for me. Did I > mention I did this with the T1 and CH pedals? No permutation or combination > worked.) GP2, OTOH, allows you to choose which direction on which axis does > what. This works best, and covers any peculiarities in equipment. > ** GP2 models and communicates tire grip exceptionally well (compared to say > ICR2 and NCR2). I am always confident that I am right on the edge of the > envelope into, around, and out of turns. (I prove this to myself from time > to time by pressing just the tiniest bit harder on gas or brake, with the > expected resulting loss of traction.) CPR likewise communicates this very > well. I'm guessing a bit here, since I'm crippled by using on-off buttons > for gas/brakes in CPR. The feel is very good, though, and I can feel when I > should "pulse" the toggles harder or softer. > ** GP2 setup options are legion; CPR looks similarly complete. > ** GP2 menus take some getting used to. CPR option menus will be more > familiar to those used to CUA. I was frustrated enough early on with GP2 to > shelf the game for some months. It worked well enough once I started finding > things to like, and how to get to them. > ** CPR has exceptional texture mapped graphics; GP2 is cartoonish, but not > garishly so. > Both feel and drive great. I'll buy CPR if and when I figure out what to do > about the throttle. > (While I'm ***ing: I also don't get proportional throttle control in MS > driving games using MS FF Pro, MS Sidewinder, TM throttle, generic > joysticks, etc. I haven't tried the CH VP Pro, but I hardly see the point. > The Win95 game controller simply sucks with MS games; ICR95 works without > problems.) > Michael.

But which one?? GP2 gets my vote. Mike

------------------------------------------------ Despite the joyous rantings of some folks on this newsgroup who think CPR is the best thing since canned beer, the demo wouldn't run on my old 5x86-133 and it still won't run on my new K6-200 MMX machine with 32 megs of RAM -- while every other racing sim I've tried (IndyCar Racing, ICR2, NASCAR, NASCAR2 and GP2) has run well on both systems. So, I can't say anything good about CPR. In addition, I echo the comments of another respondent who mentioned the problem of getting CPR to work with a steering wheel. I've had the same experience. On the other hand, GP2 has come alive on my K6-200 machine, running as fast or faster than ICR2, NASCAR or N2, but with an even more realistic driving model than those sims. GP2 has become my favorite because on my upgraded system it is the most realistic from a *simulation* standpoint. The cars perform as I'd expect a real F1 car to do. On my old system GP2 was slow and klunky, but still raceable with the graphics options cranked back. Between the two choices you offer, from my own personal experience, it's no contest: go with GP2. Jack Russell

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>On the other hand, GP2 has come alive on my K6-200 machine, running as >fast or faster than ICR2, NASCAR or N2, but with an even more >realistic driving model than those sims. GP2 has become my favorite >because on my upgraded system it is the most realistic from a >*simulation* standpoint. The cars perform as I'd expect a real F1 car >to do. On my old system GP2 was slow and klunky, but still raceable >with the graphics options cranked back. >Between the two choices you offer, from my own personal experience, >it's no contest: go with GP2. >Jack Russell

Have to echo that. On my Intel P133, GP2 was a real handful, didn't feel 'right' at all. Changed my CPU to a Intel P200 (Classic) last week, and voila, a totally different much more fluid game as jack says. Somewhat ironic that it is now showing it's true ability in it's twilight months. I'd anyone who has upgraded recently to give it another shot.

Grand Prix 2 is the best auto simulations out there. If you have a P166 or better you will get very good frame rates, much better than MS/CART. With GP2 the car will understeer when accel out of turns and oversteer with drop throttle. This allows you to feather the throttle and correct your line through the corner allowing you to be on the edge. Too much throttle coming out of a corner and the understeer will quickly and audiably (tires squeal as the rear tire break contact with the pavement) become oversteer and the backend comes around. You can save the car from swapping ends with opposite lock which really makes you feel like your driving a car. The brakes in GP2 are the best as you can outbrake the AI cars. The brakes do not make any noise unless they are locked. You can unlock them by letting up and them pushing back down like in real car. When the brakes are locked you can turn the front wheels but you continue straight ahead until you let up on the brakes and then it will turn. This is very usefull when out braking the AI cars as you can turn and brake as the brakes can be modulated easily. I tried CART and found it to be a joke. Unless you have a 3dfx card or Riva 128 forget good frame rates. I have a steering wheel and gas/brake and couldn't get MS/CART to give me any feel for what the car was doing. MS/CART doesn't even have a setting to set the steering lock-to-lock. I could never get the car through the corkscrew and the last trun in the trial version. The brakes also make too much noise and seemed to be all on or all off even with analog controls. GP2 the Best MS/CART (Monster Truck Madness creators) junk Jerry

If you have a 3dfx card or a RIVA 128 card, you will likely get better frame rates in CPR than GP2 (this is the case with my machine) since GP2 does not suport any 3D API. CPR does in fact have a setting for lock to lock (in the garage). In addition there are settings for steering ratio and speed sensitive steering (in the controls window). If you couldn't get through the corkscrew, then you had one or more of these settings out of line. The brake do in fact have variable strength (analog) action. It sounds like something was setup wrong with your controls. Follow the ReadMe carefully, as it contains directions for the new "Game Controllers" control panel. With the problems you had, it is not surprising you weren't able to get a feel for what the car was doing! Jim Getzen Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ http://members.home.net/getzen/

I DO have a 3dfx card, and while the graphics were OK, the control with a wheel (demo) was so bad it felt like drunk driving. I didn't try with a joystick, 'cause last time I checked, racing cars have steering wheels. GP2, OTOH, has GREAT control and road feel. Based on having driven racing karts, GP2 is the clear winner in realistic feel. I won't be buying CPR.

Completely agree with you.

I have to agree about the frame rates, except that I have an STB Velocity 128 with the Riva chipset on it and when trying to race full screen with other cars, it's a slide show. I did turn off the poll for interrupts thing in the joystick, muted the sound, took off all of the graphics, and it still reminds me of when I tried to get ICR1 to work with my old 486-66 way back when. Shrinking the viewing window is all fine and good, but the first thing to go with that option in your mirrors. BTW, I am running this on a P166 with 64MB RAM and the Velocity 128 board. Also, a problem that seems to be remenicent of ICR1, I have plowed into alot of cars stopped dead in the middle of the racetrack during green flag sessions. Not that I would be able to avoid a car stopped on the track when I'm going 190 mph, but also I can't see them well because the gamma correction is wrong at that resolution full screen. I could window the screen and the gamma improves, but I can forget about the frame rate, which drops to about 3 fps. Perhaps if MS could incorporate gamma correction into the patch? CPR has the potential to be a great game, but right now there's no way I can play it. It's just too damn slow and the AI is horrifying. P.

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> Try the following: > Control Panel - Game Controllers - Advanced - UNcheck "Poll with interrupts" > Any difference? > >> Unless you have a 3dfx card or Riva > >> 128 forget good frame rates. I have a steering wheel and gas/brake and > >> couldn't get MS/CART to give me any feel for what the car was doing. > >>MS/CART > >> doesn't even have a setting to set the steering lock-to-lock. I could > never > >> get the car through the corkscrew and the last trun in the trial version. > >>The > >> brakes also make too much noise and seemed to be all on or all off even > with > >> analog controls. > >I DO have a 3dfx card, and while the graphics were OK, the control with a > wheel > > (demo) was so bad it felt like drunk driving. I didn't try with a > joystick, > > 'cause last time I checked, racing cars have steering wheels. GP2, OTOH, > has > > GREAT control and road feel. Based on having driven racing karts, GP2 is > the > > clear winner in realistic feel. I won't be buying CPR.