WOW, Grand Prix Legends is amazing!

Well I was up in Boston last week and I got to stop by and visit the folks at Papyrus. I saw a lot of cool stuff and finally got to put faces with all the names I've come to know. Everyone was extremely friendly and eager to answer my questions (within reason of course), but the real highlight was being able to play around with GPL. I'm not sure if there is a VGA option, or how well the 2D version runs, but the 3D accelerated version was VERY smooth (to my knowledge there wasn't a framerate counter so I can't give exact numbers). Considering there is still quite some time until its release, there's probably still room for further optimization. A decent CPU (meaning a P166MMX or higher) paired with a fast 3D accelerator (3Dfx, Riva128, Rendition V2x00, etc.) should do nicely. Graphically its vastly superior to any previous racing sim, giving a great sensation of speed. I know there has been a lot of debate going on about the driver's hands in the***pit, and for some time I was against it as well. But in all honesty, after playing GPL I can't imagine it without the hands. The***pit would just be empty without them. There are no extra visual indications of speed, gears, etc. other than what you see in the***pit. So to tell what gear you're in, you just have to glance down and the shifter to note its position. The hands aren't simply eye candy, as they really do provide very good visual feedback of how the car is handling (perhaps with a very good force feedback wheel this would be less important). The mirrors are a great addition as well, and the game is basically rendering 3 complete views (the main***pit view, plus the two smaller mirrors). They now show full detail and textures, and look much more realistic than any mirror I've ever seen. I can't tell you how cool it is to see the true 3D***pit react to the race track as you climb hills or go though dips or watching your front suspension as you run up on the curbs. Plus all you ***ic racers out there will be happy to know that spectacular rolls and flips are now possible with the new physics model. I pretty much suck at road courses (especially those that I've never seen before), but thankfully I did get to watch the Papy guys really put the car through its paces. To see someone sliding through the turns at the very edge of control was a real treat, and I could have stood there for hours with my jaw dropped. Even after only playing it for a short while, its difficult to go back to any other game. David Kaemmer is the John Carmack of racing sims, and with GPL Papyrus will continue to be the standard to which all others are compared. I can't wait to see what else is in the works for N3... -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net

Eric, I hate you - just thought you should know that :) Seriously, given the astonishing things Papyrus are accomplishing with Grand Prix Legends, all you tin-top drivers have to be salivating at the prospect of what they're going to do with NASCAR3. I only wish they could get the rights to do another CART sim or, better yet, the rights to the 1998 F1 season. How about a Papyrus sim of the new slidy F1 cars, and with a new slidy ex-Indycar champion? Cheers! John

Thanks for the review - everytime I hear something about GPL I drool a little more <g> Cheers, Richard

Honestly I wasn't too e***d about racing around in '67 Grand Prix cars with little traction and downforce on sprawling road courses, but after seeing what GPL brings to the table I'll just have to learn to love it. This ground-breaking sim will be an absolute must have for any racing fan. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >Seriously, given the astonishing things Papyrus are accomplishing with >Grand Prix Legends, all you tin-top drivers have to be salivating at >the prospect of what they're going to do with NASCAR3.

>>I can't tell you how cool it is to see the true 3D***pit react to the >>race track as you climb hills or go though dips or watching your front >>suspension as you run up on the curbs. Plus all you ***ic racers out ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Got it right now - CART Precision Racing ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Got it right now - CART Precision Racing ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Got it right now CART Precision Racing ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I truly hope so because the more top notch simulations we have in the market the more each company like Papyrus, Terminal Reality, Micropose, and UBIsoft will be forced to make better and better games! I always wondered why Papyrus didn't go after the F1 license considering the *** in the race sim market over the last couple years.

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>Subject: Re: WOW, Grand Prix Legends is amazing! >Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:47:46 -0500 >Honestly I wasn't too e***d about racing around in '67 Grand Prix cars >with little traction and downforce on sprawling road courses, but after >seeing what GPL brings to the table I'll just have to learn to love it. >This ground-breaking sim will be an absolute must have for any racing >fan. >-- >Eric T. Busch >[link lost in import]

I have just recently got the Speedvision channel here in Vancouver and have been able to catch up on my racing history. After seeing an episode of "Legends Of Motorsport" titled " Ring Masters" on the 67 Nerbergring GP I'm convinced 1967 is the perfect year for a sim. It was the very last year before ground effects were introduced, so the cars had suspension that actually worked, the cars weren't glued to the ground by wings and therefore slid all over the place and got air over hilltops. They were much more interesting to watch, which is basically what the 98 GP rule changes are trying to get back to.

Eric, Thanks for the report - very interesting. Just a couple of questions - did they mention a release date. I've heard it may have slipped to Summer 98. Second, what tracks did you race on? Are the Nurburgring and Spa in there? Thanks, Alan Head ************************* Screamer 2 homepages: http://www.feature.demon.co.uk/games.htm ----------------------------------------- Grand Prix Legends (from Papyrus) page http://www.feature.demon.co.uk/gpl/gpl.htm __________________________________________

Cart Precision Racing looks decent, runs like crap, has little to no AI to speak of, the physics model is pretty weak, etc. It just isn't in that same class as GPL. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >Got it right now - CART Precision Racing...

With all that was going on, I forgot to ask about a release date. I've never been a fan of open-wheeled cars, nor was I alive during the time period the sim is based on. Basically what I'm trying to say is that I know absolutely nothing about GP, and in all honesty I had never even heard of most of the tracks. Sorry I can't be of any more help. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >Thanks for the report - very interesting. Just a couple of questions - >did they mention a release date. I've heard it may have slipped to >Summer 98. Second, what tracks did you race on? Are the Nurburgring >and Spa in there?

Boy, aren't you going out on a limb here to show your prejudice for Papy? The physics model is "pretty weak"? I'd love to know the analysis you used to come to this conclusion. Isn't in the same "class" as GPL? Last time I checked, there was no demo of GPL even available to compare the two. Are you using word of mouth of the few people who have seen the product in development to make this determination? I seem to remember a ton of people praising Ubi F1 over CPR as well, until about two days ago when they actually got it in their hands. Rich >Cart Precision Racing looks decent, runs like crap, has little to no AI >to speak of, the physics model is pretty weak, etc. It just isn't in >that same class as GPL.

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> Cart Precision Racing looks decent, runs like crap, has little to no AI > to speak of, the physics model is pretty weak, etc. It just isn't in > that same class as GPL. > -- > Eric T. Busch > http://ebusch.akorn.net > >Got it right now - CART Precision Racing...

Let's see...Eric was an NROS beta tester and John is a CPR beta tester and you actually disagree on this!? How is that possible? In any case, it sounds like GPL will be awesome. Just curious Eric...did you view a Glide version of GPL? I could never find your original post. I know it's been beaten to death on this ng but, while I love...no, absolutely love ICR2 (former IVGA record holder on the four short ovals [yes Don, Phoenix is an oval]), I believe that the CPR physics model may be better. However, I cannot say for sure having only raced it in sub-SVGA quality graphics at 9 fps. I am looking forward to lapping with the patched version of it on something more than a P100 w/o 3D acceleration after the holidays. Jim P.S. ETB - while I have your eye, will or won't a V2100 card run the Rendition versions of ICR2 and N2?

AFAIK both run on the V2x00 cards (however ICR2 needs a patch which is available from Rendition's FTP site). -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >P.S. ETB - while I have your eye, will or won't a V2100 card run the >Rendition versions of ICR2 and N2?

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> >Even after only playing it for a short while, its difficult to go back > >to any other game. David Kaemmer is the John Carmack of racing sims, > >and with GPL Papyrus will continue to be the standard to which all > >others are compared. > Seriously, given the astonishing things Papyrus are accomplishing with > Grand Prix Legends, all you tin-top drivers have to be salivating at > the prospect of what they're going to do with NASCAR3.

And it's ashame they couldn't put some of that wonderful talent to work and fix SODA, put out the 3dfx patch for N2 and update ICR2 like it so desperetley needs .. I'm tiring of companies that abandon products so they can force us to buy the new update ... (n2 vs n3 to get 3dfx out of the box ...) Doug

>Boy, aren't you going out on a limb here to show your prejudice for Papy? Don't think so. Eric has been posting here for years, and always speaks his mind freely. I've seen noo evidence whatsoever of prejudice. No, as he said he was using his own eyes - he *has* seen the product. Joe

Fix SODA - 3dFX patch on the way N2 - 3dFX patch also on the way ICR2 - No license. Anything else sir would require today...? :) Tell me, what does "abandoning" mean where you come from? Around these parts it generally doesn't stretch to include products where a track pack, a revolutionary on-line racing system, and a 3dFX patch are either released or almost ready for release. I wish a few more companies would "abandon" their products like that. Cheers! John

Wow, that was the most stupid reply I ever read here on r.a.s. <g> How can you just compare C:PR to any of Papyrus's titles ?? Darn Indy500: The Simulation had better AI than C:PR !!!!! (and you can't say that it's untrue). Did Papyrus ever producted a BAD simulation racing game ? NO. Does ALL Papyrus titles elevated the line in great simracing games each time a new one was on stores ? YES. Look at Papy's road: Indy500:The Simulation Great Sim. I still play with it. Awesome AI. Still a reference IMHO Icr1: Wow great Sim. Great for that time. In the top of the notch. Good AI and fun to drive. Nascar1: With 500 000 copies (and more with full installation copies), how can you say that this isn't a great sim. I still race with it. awesome. Icr1 trackpack + Nascar1 trackpack: Better track layout each time. Indy track for Icr1, SearsPoint and C***te for N1 were great tracks for that time. Icr2: Wow great simengine. Great graphics, awesome 3D version. Great AI Nascar2: The reference in Simracing presently. With NROS it's at the top and unbeatable. SODA: One of the best Game engine and AI ever since Indy500. It is soooo great to race on those dirt tracks. N2 BGN trackpack: WOW! You can easily see the graphic improvments in 1 year. Texas, Hickory, California. Great tracks. In the Future: GPL. Probably the biggest challenge for Papyrus. It WILL be the best sim ever when it's out. Any REAL simracer knows that. We are all waiting for that title. N3: How can you improve (N3) an improvment (N2) of a great game (N1) ??? Redo the game engine, add-in feature and incorporate the NROS in the game. wow with even some of the features of NascarManager in it as I heard. Reno Air Racer: Papyrus will try another type of racing with this title. I am sure it will be 100% Papy quality and best of the best. Btw I hope we will talk about it HERE in r.a.s. , not those Simflying newsgroups <g> So tell me here if Papy ever produced a ***simracing title ?? NO. And their next products WILL be as good as their old brothers. Microsoft: CART:PR. Normal all-around Sim. new features but lacks in many places. Poor AI. Bad framerate even in top of the notch PC's. Worst than Gp2 in framerate. Still isn't considered as in the top of simracing titles for us the serious simracers in general. UbiSoft: F1RS. Normal All-around Sim. Awesome graphics, but many bugs and missed features. with a patch it could easily be the best F1 sim ever. But Papy never had a F1 sim. They will and it will be the best ever. Microprose: WC. On of the best simracing title ever. Very fun to race. This is the only awesome non-papy simulation racing title. Gp2: Great sim but misses some features. Francois Menard [link lost in import]

New to the place? Well, better sound, maybe. Did papyrus get flamed brutally and unmercifully for every simulation game it put out? YES. Bottom line is, the only way to know if a sim is any good in this newsgroup is to count the number of *** threads still bouncing around flaming it 1 month after it is released. People *forget* crappy sims very quickly, they just don't get talked about. ICR2 got flamed so brutally, so despicably, so incredibly nastily, that I think it had something to do with why Papy said it would never put out another Indy sim. God, that was a horrible period in this group.

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> Wow, that was the most stupid reply I ever read here on r.a.s. <g> > How can you just compare C:PR to any of Papyrus's titles ?? Darn Indy500: > The Simulation had better AI than C:PR !!!!! (and you can't say that it's > untrue). > Did Papyrus ever producted a BAD simulation racing game ? NO.

Has Papy ever finished a simulation game? <g>

I played the Rendition native version on a P200 using a V1000 card the the framerate was VERY impressive. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >Just curious Eric...did you view a Glide version of GPL? >I could never find your original post.

I'm afraid due to licensing issue's I really can't comment on what tracks were or were not in place. While I don't have anything to compare the tracks to (I've never really seen any of them in real life), graphically they were far superior to those used in N2. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net

> >And it's ashame they couldn't put some of that wonderful talent to work > >and fix SODA, put out the 3dfx patch for N2 and update ICR2 like it so > >desperetley needs .. > Fix SODA - 3dFX patch on the way Yeah, but when ... it should have been out by now ... Not if it was up to Papyrus ... this is a 3dfx project and they aren't going to be selling it -- Papryus would have made us wait until N3 came out .. and of course we have to buy it (n3). They didn't fix it when they did have the license -- haven't you been following this NG long enough to know that ? There are a ton of things that could be upgraded in ICR2 ... it was abandoned. Much like GP2 What they did regarding the N2-3dfx patch -- again, if it was up to Papy, we'd have to buy n3 to get it ... Doug

I agree with ymenard on this one. Imho, Papy has been and continues to be the leader in racing sims, heck racing their sims is all I ever do anymore. It's incredible what they have accomplished with the Nros. Racing door to door with mulitple drivers is incredible. I've dabbled in other games/sims, and I would consider Papy's work to be the most complete I have bought. I have yet to be dissapointed in any of their products, and I eagerly await their next release. Can't think of any other *** company I would say that about. I'm really looking forward to reno racer, as I used to be involved in radio control pylon racing, and always thought it would be great if someone like Papy did an air racing sim, plus it would be nice to be able to use my f16 flcs w/ tqs every now and then. <g> -- Don Burnette Music City Racing Dburn on Ten

What did SPA look like...?? What did the Eau Rouge look like...ooooh man I cannot wait for this sim...man o man I dont have enough money for all the cool stuff coming... PAPA DOC

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>With all that was going on, I forgot to ask about a release date. I've >never been a fan of open-wheeled cars, nor was I alive during the time >period the sim is based on. Basically what I'm trying to say is that I >know absolutely nothing about GP, and in all honesty I had never even >heard of most of the tracks. Sorry I can't be of any more help. >-- >Eric T. Busch >http://ebusch.akorn.net >>Thanks for the report - very interesting. Just a couple of questions - >>did they mention a release date. I've heard it may have slipped to >>Summer 98. Second, what tracks did you race on? Are the Nurburgring >>and Spa in there?

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...

Hiya, This sim sounds so awesome... my love of GP racing was born poring over a 60's era GP review book with Jim Clark, Jacky Ickx (sp!?), and this era racers.... I'm REALLY looking forward to this sim, also as a new open-wheel work from Papyrus... In response to he who asked about ICR2 and Stealth II, it can be patched, but the mirrors are funky (ghost cars, you can barely make them out, the image is a square that spills out over the edges of the mirror frame) and the top of the ***pit is cut off in a straight line. I REALLY hope Papyrus and/or Rendition will take the time to fix this soon, as it's not fixed in the "new" release CART Racing which advertises complete Rendition compatibility. See Bjorn's Rendition page for the update file and some help on the web board on this... [link lost in import] Colin Taber Snake Racing [link lost in import]

Eric, Thanks for the update on GPL. As always you keep us on the cutting edge :-). Will you please use some of your pull and get papy working on a superbike or better yet a Supercross/Motocross sim...not another arcade bike game. Thanks, Gary

There are reasons the SODA 3dFX patch isn't here yet. They ain't just messing with us y'know! This is one of the problems around here. We *** when there's no response from software companies, then when we do force them into telling us something we *** if it doesn't happen. Not to defend Software Allies on this issue, if it really was unclear when a 3dFX patch would be available then a date/timescale should never have been mentioned. Still, you can see how frustrating it is for them as well as us. Naturally you have conclusive proof of this....? You don't?! You're just speculating?! If there was no demand for 3dFX support there would be no reason for Papyrus to dedicate the manpower and resource to putting it in place. If there IS demand for 3dFX support they will do it. Fix....what? AFAIK Papyrus worked long and *** a patch for ICR2, and patched the issues that we complained about. Paintkit bug, Phoenix handling changing throughout a session, etc etc. IMO they were definitely tardy with this, and I recall giving them quite a lambasting for it at the time (memories are short around here obviously, since I am now perceived to be exactly the opposite it seems. Ah well). So now everything promised is in the game. I don't see what you can then expect? Release a product, have it working correctly and deliver on everything you promised - that's the remit of a software company. To then continue to assign resources to further develop that product in the knowledge that it will not generate any more money or increase sales is _madness_, and a recipe for going out of business. The vast majority of products with long term support are third-party support - Quake levels, TCs, MTM tracks, ICR2 carsets etc etc. Even companies who do support products like Total Annihilation, do so because they promised they would as part of the marketing. They're only delivering on what they promised. Any development that Papyrus did for ICR2 would have to be in the form of a new product. I love ICR2 and would dearly like to get a version with 3dFX and networking support. At the same time I wouldn't wish Papyrus to devote time to that at the expense of other products. I'd rather they took their time, did it to the best of their ability, and sold it as a new product. I'd pay the money all over again if I could get GP2 with 3dFX support and networking (provided it really worked well), and I wouldn't expect someone to put further effort into expanding on a product that was already finished and working properly. Fixing something that _isn't_ working properly and _doesn't_ live up to what was promised is entirely different, hence my complaints about CPR and the roasting given to Papyrus over the delay in patching ICR2. a) You don't know that. b) Since it wasn't part of the original spec and yet we bought N2 anyway, why should that be a problem? Scenario 1 : N2 is released according to the published spec, with no 3dFX support. Papy start working on NASCAR3, but clamour for 3dFX support moves them to divert programming resource to that project. N2-3dFX is released, and support is required to continue working on the patch, fixing any issues with NROS play etc. Consequently NASCAR3 is delayed by some months. Scenario 2 : N2 is released as above. Clamour for 3dFX is great, but Papyrus decide to concentrate on developing NASCAR3 which will give 3dFX support in addition to a whole host of other features, being based upon the new game engine of Grand Prix Legends. NASCAR3 available on schedule. IMO NASCAR2 is not soooooooo in need of a 3dFX patch that I can't play without it, and I'd rather see more effort put toward NASCAR3 and further enhancing the next generation product. If enough people really really want N2-3dFX then fine, I'm happy to play it, but I don't think it's a must. Cheers! John

Mr. Burg: If you really have this much problem with Papyrus, why don't you stop buying their products? That would be a very easy solution and it would keep you from wasting so much Internet Bandwitdth on posts like these. Also, why do you question Eric Busch? This guy has been around longer than most everyone else. He knows his stuff, tells it like it is, and is just generally a great guy. OK, I'm going back to my race at Hickory. Oh, and by the way, the ability to save games in N2 was a patch (ie..Papyrus does not abandon their products). Lee

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>> >And it's ashame they couldn't put some of that wonderful talent to work >> >and fix SODA, put out the 3dfx patch for N2 and update ICR2 like it so >> >desperetley needs .. >> Fix SODA - 3dFX patch on the way >Yeah, but when ... it should have been out by now ... >Not if it was up to Papyrus ... this is a 3dfx project and they aren't >going to be selling it -- Papryus would have made us wait until N3 came >out .. and of course we have to buy it (n3). >> ICR2 - No license. >What they did regarding the N2-3dfx patch -- again, if it was up to >Papy, we'd have to buy n3 to get it ... >Doug

> Mr. Burg: > If you really have this much problem with Papyrus, why don't you stop > buying their products? That would be a very easy solution and it > would keep you from wasting so much Internet Bandwitdth on posts like > these. I have -- I didn't buy SODA yet ... I'll wait until it works. Sames goes for N2... If you follow the thread, you will see that the thread hasn't involved Mr. Busch since his early post. Doug

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> >Yeah, but when ... it should have been out by now ... > There are reasons the SODA 3dFX patch isn't here yet. They ain't just > messing with us y'know! This is one of the problems around here. We > *** when there's no response from software companies, then when we > do force them into telling us something we *** if it doesn't happen. > Not to defend Software Allies on this issue, if it really was unclear > when a 3dFX patch would be available then a date/timescale should > never have been mentioned. Still, you can see how frustrating it is > for them as well as us.

Well this seemed pretty clear to me at the time ... ========================== Subject: Re: Will SODA support 3dfx? Date: 8 Oct 1997 10:27:30 -0500 To: Doug Burg We're going to release a 3dfx patch for the game in a month or two. =========================== a month or two would have been between early November and early December. Now they are saying next year... I'll believe it when it runs ... Frankly, I'm darn glad I didn't buy the game expecting the 3dfx patch to be quickly forthcoming. Because it'll be a while. Which is typical of big-who-gives-a-crap-about-the-customer software houses. And Papy/Sierra ain't the worst .. not by far. They are working on something else and SODA's 3dfx patch has been relegated to 2nd or 3rd or 33rd priority ... forget all the people who already bought it and can't adequately run it. Look, I've never said this here before, but I work for CUC/Cendant (the employee prices. I'd be really ticked if I paid full retail for it ... but the point is this. Two months ago they were saying it would be out by now. Now its not even close ... Well the tech guy (Yanaiah) posted on the Motorsports support message and he has repeatedly said the same thing. It is only recently that he has acknowledged that 3dfx Inc was doing the patch with Papy's permission. So I again, say, if it was up to Papy we'd have to buy a new game to get it ... how can you argue with that? Look, if you are telling me that there are not areas where ICR2 could be improved, then it's not worth arguing over. I think the non-accelerated version is very weak in the graphics version and most people with 3d cards can't run it in an accelerated mode because they don't have Rendition cards, they have 3dfx. They must have a CART license or they would not have been able to change the box. That being the case, why are they not improving the game and releasing a new version (call it ICR3 if you will)... ? The only answer is that they have abandoned the product and there will be no ICR3 -- just like there will be no GP3 (or so we are lead to believe...). So why is Papy abandoning the ICR/CART product line? Who knows ... but that's apparantely what they did. ICR2 is still very popular to this day (otherwise they would not have bothered repackaging it)... I didn't buy N2 -- I won't buy a game that needs acceleration that doesn't support 3dfx. And I won't buy it until the patch is reportedly working as seen here in RAS. I don't buy it -- if they had time to do BGN they have time to do the patch ... N2 folks are left high and dry if it was not for 3dfx inc ... Well I'll agree to disagree. I've played it without acceleration and I don't like it. Doug

That's b/c you and others have managed to quickly change the thread. My intentions were to give everyone some insight into an upcoming product, nothing more. If you look back you'll see that I've tried to answer each and every post that deals with the topic at hand, namely GPL. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >If you follow the thread, you will see that the thread hasn't involved >Mr. Busch since his early post.

>Naturally you have conclusive proof of this....? You don't?! You're >just speculating?! No, it's a well-known fact - 3dfx is themselves doing the patch to the Nascar2 code, not Papyrus. Joe

>If you really have this much problem with Papyrus, why don't you stop >buying their products? That would be a very easy solution and it >would keep you from wasting so much Internet Bandwitdth on posts like >these. Oh, please, give it a rest. Doug is a big racing game fan, and has carefully pointed out the specific detail (3dfx support) he wants Papyrus to add to their games. He also has some very good points about abandoning updates for old products (ICR2 in particular - the ICR2 CART release is a joke - though with 3dfx support it might have actually been something). In doing so he does both us (gamers) and Papyrus a service. If everyone just quietly accepted things they don't like, these games would NEVER improve. Joe

Papy lost their Indycar license, and as such could not continue to sell the game under that name. To keep ICR2 in the market, they decided to change the name and repackage the existing code plus the strategy guide. Why is this such a big deal to some people? -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >ICR2 in particular - the ICR2 CART release is a joke

Once you play GPL you'll never want to go back the N2, 3Dfx accelerated or not. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >N2 is the best non-accelerated graphics engine to date, IMO. Still, >having said that it's difficult to go back to even the bext >unaccelerated engine after playing 3dfx game.

Keep in mind I played a non-optimized version of GPL on a P200 with a Rendition V1000 and it was very smooth. I think by the time N3 is released most everyone will have the CPU and 3D accelerator power to support much more detail than is currently possible. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >I cant really disagree with you because I have not seen the game in person at all... but in regards to the arms in the Grand Prix Legends... I got the newest issue of Interaction and it has a picture of the ***pit view.. to me, the arms look like 2X4 and I hate it. Nothing more than 90 degree long rectangles.

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> >I can't speak for Soda, but N2 doesn't work? > N2 is the best non-accelerated graphics engine to date, IMO. Still, > having said that it's difficult to go back to even the bext > unaccelerated engine after playing 3dfx game. I enjoyed N2, got my > money's worth out of it I suppose, but still I can't wait for the 3dfx > patch, knowing how much better it will be. > Joe

Here here ... I agree !! I'm spoiled (by 3dfx) and I admit it ... it's like trying to live w/out Air Conditioning ... You can do it, but why would ya want to ?

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> I can't speak for Soda, but N2 doesn't work? My wife would vehemently > disagree with ya on that one <g> > -- > Don Burnette > Music City Racing > Dburn on Ten > > I have -- I didn't buy SODA yet ... I'll wait until it works. Sames > > goes for N2...

let me state it more clearly - forgot a word ... works with my 3dfx card. There ... <grin> Doug

> Papy lost their Indycar license, and as such could not continue to sell > the game under that name. To keep ICR2 in the market, they decided to > change the name and repackage the existing code plus the strategy guide. > Why is this such a big deal to some people? Eric, Correct me if I am wrong ... but doesn't Papy need a license from CART to repackage the game under that banner? That being the case, why couldn't they update it and release a CART III if they so chose? Doug

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> -- > Eric T. Busch > http://ebusch.akorn.net > >ICR2 in particular - the ICR2 CART release is a joke

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> >No, it's a well-known fact - 3dfx is themselves doing the patch to the > >Nascar2 code, not Papyrus. > Really? I'm surprised then that the 3dFX guys are saying that they > couldn't have done it without the help of Papyrus (have a look on the > 3dFX group). Sounds like 3dFX aren't "going it alone" as everyone is > saying.

Of course 3dfx couldn't have done it w/out Papyrus ... they needed the source code .. silly ... and of course they needed consulting on the code ... but that doesn't mean that Papy is doing the patch. There is a world of difference between doing it yourself and letting someone else do it for you at their time and expense. If papy is so darn righteous on this, are they PAYING 3dfx to do the patch? I doubt it ...

I can't speak for Soda, but N2 doesn't work? My wife would vehemently disagree with ya on that one <g> -- Don Burnette Music City Racing Dburn on Ten

>No, it's a well-known fact - 3dfx is themselves doing the patch to the >Nascar2 code, not Papyrus. Really? I'm surprised then that the 3dFX guys are saying that they couldn't have done it without the help of Papyrus (have a look on the 3dFX group). Sounds like 3dFX aren't "going it alone" as everyone is saying. In any case, what does it matter? 3dFX patch is being done, I'm trying to find NASCAR2 again on my hard disk, and noising up TEN about letting us European's onto NROS to kick some US ***around Sears Point ;-) Cheers! John PS - Just kidding guys, I'd get my ass handed to me by anyone who's spent more than 10 minutes with NASCAR2. I'm an open-wheeler at heart, and can't get the hang of these buses.

<HTML> Eric, <P>I cant really disagree with you because I have not seen the game in person at all... but in regards to the arms in the Grand Prix Legends...&nbsp;&nbsp; I got the newest issue of Interaction and it has a picture of the***pit view.. to me, the arms look like 2X4 and I hate it.&nbsp; Nothing more than 90 degree long rectangles. <P>I truly hope IF they go that way with N3...&nbsp; there is an option to turn it off. <P>Just my .02 of course and again,&nbsp; I have not seen or played the game in person. <P>Scott B. Husted <BR><A HREF="[link lost in import: /~sbhusted]">[link lost in import: /~sbhusted]</A> <BR>&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I played the Rendition native version on a P200 using a V1000 card the <BR>the framerate was VERY impressive. <P>-- <BR>Eric T. Busch <BR><A HREF="[link lost in import]">[link lost in import]</A> <BR>> <BR>>Just curious Eric...did you view a Glide version of GPL? <BR>>I could never find your original post.</BLOCKQUOTE> &nbsp;</HTML>

>I can't speak for Soda, but N2 doesn't work? N2 is the best non-accelerated graphics engine to date, IMO. Still, having said that it's difficult to go back to even the bext unaccelerated engine after playing 3dfx game. I enjoyed N2, got my money's worth out of it I suppose, but still I can't wait for the 3dfx patch, knowing how much better it will be. Joe

>Really? I'm surprised then that the 3dFX guys are saying that they >couldn't have done it without the help of Papyrus All they said was that Papyrus wrote the original game. Duh. Joe

Ohh, ok I can accept that <g> -- Don Burnette Music City Racing Dburn on Ten

Probably because they have their hands full at the moment, and chose to just repackage ICR2 as CART Racing rather than stop selling it. That's not to say that we've seen the end of the ICR series though, as I'm sure they want to make ICR3 (or whatever it would actually be called) as badly as any of us want to play it. -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >Correct me if I am wrong ... but doesn't Papy need a license from CART >to repackage the game under that banner? That being the case, why >couldn't they update it and release a CART III if they so chose?

>Oh, please, give it a rest. Doug is a big racing game fan, and has >carefully pointed out the specific detail (3dfx support) he wants >Papyrus to add to their games. He also has some very good points about >abandoning updates for old products (ICR2 in particular - the ICR2 >CART release is a joke - though with 3dfx support it might have >actually been something)...................<<<<SNIP>>>>> Um well actually this was done for "LEGAL REASONS" as CART can no longer use the name INDYCAR (belongs to IRL now). Hence a name change had to be made. Bob

If the product is viable enough to repackage, why not IMPROVE it in some way? (e.g., 3dfx support) Joe

Maybe so, but GPL is probably six months away, at best. That's not even the forseeable furure in "internet time". ;-) Joe

iner.concentric.net>: Distribution: Heh heh... exactly. Let me paraphrase the prevailing attitude. "Hey, Papyrus, why can't you offer free, lifetime support and program enhancements for my $45 software product?" Get real, people. I pay $6000 annually to license a finite-element analysis code. And I still pay extra to upgrade to the latest revision. It's called the software INDUSTRY, folks. Money in has to exceed money out. Last time I checked, these companies weren't breaking into Fortune 500. In fact, many have a precarious hold on financial solvency (look at MicroProse's financial problems which threatened the release of GP2). I don't expect these guys to re-code a good product for free. And if you think you got suckered by the name change of ICR2, well then you better stay inside, because you aren't ready for the challenges of the real world. Stephen : Papy lost their Indycar license, and as such could not continue to sell : the game under that name. To keep ICR2 in the market, they decided to : change the name and repackage the existing code plus the strategy guide. : Why is this such a big deal to some people? : : --

> Once you play GPL you'll never want to go back the N2, 3Dfx accelerated > or not. Well, only if you don't care what type of racing is simulated. I love CART, I love F1, but I never want to give up the tank combat called Nascar... 8^) Get this patch over here, 3Dfx, pleeeze! l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

"Silly"? Doug, if you can't remain civil then please don't even bother replying to my posts. I'm here to discuss, not to trade insults. My understanding of what 3dFX were saying is that Papyrus' input was a lot more than "okay, we've bunged the source code in the mail to you". I think Papyrus would want it released this millenium, and reverse engineering someone's code would take forever. I'm just struggling to see the "problem" that everyone is so worked up about - NASCAR2 was released, everyone was happy. 3dFX became the card of choice - suddenly NASCAR2 is no good anymore? Now everyone wants a 3dFX patch. A 3dFX patch is supplied, okay, let's whinge because it's 3dFX that are doing it rather than Papyrus. I mean honestly, does it matter? Another misguided rumour started..... Believe it or not, 3dFX have a surprising freedom - it's called "choice". _IF_ they are doing it free of charge it is because they believe it will boost sales of their chipset, and they will therefore be raking in the money. If this proves not to be the case, it's their error of judgement, nothing to do with Papyrus. You should be happy - you're getting 3dFX NASCAR2 _and_ without eating into Papy's development time and resources which would delay other products. This is not as unusual as you would have us believe - Rendition also fly programmers around the world to implement support and get their name on products they'd otherwise miss out on. You can't afford to miss out on these opportunities, and those are the realities of the marketplace. People get what they want and STILL find something to complain about. I'm now beginning to understand how someone's mind can "boggle". I was always a bit unclear on that! Cheers! John

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:41:09 -0500, Doug Burg <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well this seemed pretty clear to me at the time ... <snip> >a month or two would have been between early November and early >December. Now they are saying next year... I'll believe it when it >runs ... If you've read anything else I've posted to the newsgroup, you'll know that I firmly believe that a company should only commit to delivering on a date it is 100% sure it can meet. Once that commitment has been made it must be adhered to. In this case the users were looking for a 3dFX patch, and an idea of when it would be released. "A month or two" does not consitute a delivery commitment, it consitutes someone guessing at a date to be helpful. The sort of help messages like yours will ensure we never get in future. It'll be back to the "it'll be finished when you see it on the store shelves" scenario of ID. Software companies will be better off, they don't gain anything by giving us release dates. We'll be worse off.

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>Frankly, I'm darn glad I didn't buy the game expecting the >3dfx patch to be quickly forthcoming. Because it'll be a while. Which >is typical of big-who-gives-a-crap-about-the-customer software houses. >And Papy/Sierra ain't the worst .. not by far. They are working on >something else and SODA's 3dfx patch has been relegated to 2nd or 3rd or >33rd priority ... forget all the people who already bought it and can't >adequately run it.

The vast majority of people still have no idea that a 3dFX patch is in the works, so if they've bought it and can't run it that is due to them not researching the specs carefully enough or poor reviewing. You can't pin everything on software companies. So SODA was relegated to second place because something else took priority? If that is shocking to you then I suggest you wake up and take a look around - decisions like that happen several times per day in the company I work for. Everything is needed _now_ and every customer is important - sometimes you've got to decide. In an ideal world we would have enough capacity to give every customer everything that they want, but there are realities that need to be faced. Coding 3dFX is a specific knowledge, so it doesn't take a genius to figure out that perhaps the particular guru working on SODA 3dFX was required for N2's patch? The point is that whichever project he is working on and whichever fire he is attending to we are the ones going to benefit. Short of asking Papyrus to take a vote on the newsgroup every time they need to reallocate resources I'm not sure what you would have them do. The project was delayed, and THAT is a problem. It should have been estimated correctly from the outset. That's all fine and well and we can get upset about that, but remember too that your life changes, as does theirs, and so adjustments need to be made and decisions taken. I think that's a far more likely scenario than the "big bad multinantional is out to screw all my money out of me" analogy. That's an ongoing corporate objective rather than a day-to-day decision. >but the point is this. Two months ago they were saying it would be out >by now. Now its not even close ... Two months ago I thought a huge number of things would have happened in my business, almost none of which have through factors I simply cannot influence. I can sit and bitch about it or I can accept the realities. A customer doesn't get their order because a machine breaks down, there's only one guy who can fix it and he has an illness that has flattened him. You've got to deal with these things. If Papyrus are sitting there in their office saying "Oh forget the customers, let's play on NROS a bit more" then they deserve to go out of business and they will. You and I both know that's not the case. >Well the tech guy (Yanaiah) posted on the Motorsports support message >board @ www.sierra.com that they were definitely not going to do a patch >and he has repeatedly said the same thing. It is only recently that he >has acknowledged that 3dfx Inc was doing the patch with Papy's >permission. So I again, say, if it was up to Papy we'd have to buy a >new game to get it ... how can you argue with that? I'm not, you are. I'm quite happy with N2 and said in previous posts that I would far rather see N2 left alone and the programming resources going toward making GPL and NASCAR3 even better. At one time GPL and NROS were on-time, and there was no N2 or SODA patch. Now we have 3dFX patches coming for both _and_ both of the other products are delayed. There's a pattern here but I just can't quite put my finger on what it is...... On top of that, instead of getting excited about N2 and SODA in 3dFX, we all bitch about how late they are. Amazing. >Look, if you are telling me that there are not areas where ICR2 could be >improved, then it's not worth arguing over. I think the non-accelerated >version is very weak in the graphics version and most people with 3d >cards can't run it in an accelerated mode because they don't have >Rendition cards, they have 3dfx. Doug, _any_ product could be better. You've got to release it at some time though. ICR2 runs very well on a P-133 or below, so I don't see that anyone can argue that it "needs" 3dFX. The only reason it got Rendition support was because Rendition wanted a racing showcase and paid Papyrus to do so. Even the graphics of the non-3D version were groundbreaking at the time, remember it is a two year old product. Just because I've bought a 3dFX card doesn't mean I can demand DOOM patches for it. If you bought a TV two years ago would you expect Sony to come to your house and retrofit a wide-screen tube to it? Of course not, because it works fine without it. If you now decide that you want wide-screen instead of the TV you paid for and were happy with, then that's whole new product and you need to pay for it. So why expect anything different from the software you buy? >They must have a CART license or they would not have been able to change >the box. That being the case, why are they not improving the game and >releasing a new version (call it ICR3 if you will)... ? You'd need to pay for that you know...? Papyrus have said that they have not withdrawn from "US open wheel racing", but if there is no comment from them on what they are doing, can you really blame them? >The only answer >is that they have abandoned the product and there will be no ICR3 -- >just like there will be no GP3 (or so we are lead to believe...). - They're working on a product but don't want to make an announcement? - They're negotiating a license and don't want to predjudice it? - Waiting for current licenses to expire to allow a re-entry into the CART/IRL market? There are lots of possibilities, you need only look beyond that which supports your argument. To say that Papyrus have willingly abandoned the product is to say that they have abandoned makingmoney - not a likely scenario. Like it or not software companies are here to make money - that's it, plain and simple. I'm sure all of the people working there actually want to creat great sims, but the bottom line is no money = no job = no sims. If insufficient numbers bought ICR2 then it would make no sense at all to make ICR3, when you could devote the time to making something more popular and more profitable (NASCAR series for example). We may not like that, I certainly wouldn't were it the case, but I know that complaining about it isn't going to help. It's a commercial decision that has to be made. >I didn't buy N2 -- I won't buy a game that needs acceleration that >doesn't support 3dfx. >And I won't buy it until the patch is reportedly working as seen here in >RAS. NASCAR2 doesn't "need" 3dFX, it runs fine without it, a view upheld by the vast numbers who have bought it already and are running it with no frame-rate problems. Perhaps you do have a frame-rate problem and can't run it to your liking, but in that case the only sim you can have bought in the last couple of years is ICR2, since no other sim has a better frame-rate than N2 on equivalent hardware. Then again, you mentioned ICR2 is also slow, so what can you have been doing? No GP2, no N2, no CPR, no ICR2, nothing. >I don't buy it -- if they had time to do BGN they have time to do the >patch ... Both projects? At the same time? And GPL? And NROS? Remember that BGN was on the schedule - an N2 patch wasn't. That they even managed to squeeze the N2 3dFX patch in without delaying BGN was pretty nice work. >N2 folks are left high and dry if it was not for 3dfx inc ... And Papyrus, who supplied code, knowledge, willingness to help and whatever else we don't know, but in current frame of mind I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge that. >Well I'll agree to disagree. I've played it without acceleration and I >don't like it. I doubt that a 3dFX patch will make an iota of difference in that case. N2 is already faster than N1, so if you happily played N1 I fail to see what the problem is. If you didn't play N1, then why the big hullabaloo about getting a patch for a game you don't like anyway? I'm boggling again, ahhhhhhh! :) Cheers! John

% > % > Papy lost their Indycar license, and as such could not continue to sell % > the game under that name. To keep ICR2 in the market, they decided to % > change the name and repackage the existing code plus the strategy guide. % > Why is this such a big deal to some people? % Eric, % Correct me if I am wrong ... but doesn't Papy need a license from CART % to repackage the game under that banner? That being the case, why % couldn't they update it and release a CART III if they so chose? You hit the nail on the head. The so chose not to. Even though Papyrus was founded on the "love of CART/Indycar", the current crew just didn't have the desire to work on another re-hash of ICR. So instead of firing the bunch or forcing them to work on a project they didn't have their hearts into, Papyrus has branched out to other racing sims (NASCAR, Planes, and circa '60's Grand Prix). I think the latter is an indication that they may, in the future, return to CART. But, then it might just be wishful thinking on my part..... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> iner.concentric.net>: > Distribution: > Heh heh... exactly. Let me paraphrase the prevailing attitude. > "Hey, Papyrus, why can't you offer free, lifetime support and > program enhancements for my $45 software product?" Get real, > people. I pay $6000 annually to license a finite-element > analysis code.

This code, do you make money from it ???? And what if this company renamed the box the code CD's come in & charged you another 6 grand, I would like to see you smile then ??? Rob

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> And I still pay extra to upgrade to the latest > revision. It's called the software INDUSTRY, folks. Money in > has to exceed money out. Last time I checked, these companies > weren't breaking into Fortune 500. In fact, many have a precarious > hold on financial solvency (look at MicroProse's financial > problems which threatened the release of GP2). I don't expect > these guys to re-code a good product for free. And if you think > you got suckered by the name change of ICR2, well then you better > stay inside, because you aren't ready for the challenges of the > real world. > Stephen > : Papy lost their Indycar license, and as such could not continue to sell > : the game under that name. To keep ICR2 in the market, they decided to > : change the name and repackage the existing code plus the strategy guide. > : Why is this such a big deal to some people? > : > : --

That's far from the story that I've heard. I don't have the time to dig up the posts, but basicly Papyrus (via Jim S., I believe) has said: We've lost interest in doing ICR sims and ICR is a dead-end product. That said, CART is $30 (with a $10 rebate, so call it $20), with a 200 page handbook worth $15-20 included. That sounds like value for the money to me, I don't know what Doug expects... Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

John & others ... This will be my last post on the subject (N2 3dfx patch, Soda 3dfx patch, etc ...) My comments were made in the spirit of encouraging Papyrus to continue to improve their products. We all want that, we all benefit from that. We each have our individual opinions. I do not feel Papyrus is taking as active a role in the development of a 3dfx patch for N2, but who am I to know that .. I don't have the inside scoop. Here is the bottom line ... Papy, if you can affect the release of the N2 patch in anyway, we'd love to have it for Christmas !! and put this to bed .. Regarding Soda, I continue to feel that the product is too slow even on my 200mhz machine and needs 3d support (3dfx is my flavor). So... To Papyrus: If you want Soda to be a classic like N2, fix it... Enough said... Doug p.s. John Wallace, I meant nothing I said to be personal in nature.

>engineering someone's code would take forever. I'm just struggling to >see the "problem" that everyone is so worked up about - Not worked up, just pointing out that Papyrus business decision-making around 3d cards has been very flawed, and as a result they are amoung the last companies on earth to support leading edge cards. Joe

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>% > >% > Papy lost their Indycar license, and as such could not continue to sell >% > the game under that name. To keep ICR2 in the market, they decided to >% > change the name and repackage the existing code plus the strategy guide. >% > Why is this such a big deal to some people? >% Eric, >% Correct me if I am wrong ... but doesn't Papy need a license from CART >% to repackage the game under that banner? That being the case, why >% couldn't they update it and release a CART III if they so chose? >You hit the nail on the head. The so chose not to. Even though Papyrus >was founded on the "love of CART/Indycar", the current crew just didn't >have the desire to work on another re-hash of ICR. So instead of >firing the bunch or forcing them to work on a project they didn't have >their hearts into, Papyrus has branched out to other racing sims >(NASCAR, Planes, and circa '60's Grand Prix). I think the latter is an >indication that they may, in the future, return to CART. But, then it >might just be wishful thinking on my part.....

I think you're missing a crucial point here, obviously they were still making decent sales with the game and in order to continue selling it they HAD TOO change the name. It also says right on the front of the box, for those who can read, that it was previously released as ICR II, so they weren't trying to pull a fast one by renaming it. Bob

: > Heh heh... exactly. Let me paraphrase the prevailing attitude. : > "Hey, Papyrus, why can't you offer free, lifetime support and : > program enhancements for my $45 software product?" Get real, : > people. I pay $6000 annually to license a finite-element : > analysis code. : : This code, do you make money from it ???? : And what if this company renamed the box the code : CD's come in & charged you another 6 grand, I would : like to see you smile then ??? I'm still smilig. The 6000.- is for a research license. I am not allowed to do any consulting or design work with the FE software. I can only use it for non-profit research. I pay a pro-rated upgrade fee. And it comes on DAT. Your second question has no point. If you ran out and bought the re-release of ICR2 without reading the box, then I'm afraid you aren't ready for some of the other challenges in life, like choosing a nutritious breakfast cereal in the morning. The re-release did offer a content upgrade; a snazzy new manual. This is as good as a fantasy add-on track in my mind. And it's only $30. You spend that taking a friend out to the movies. A little perspective is needed here. My whole point in mentioning the high-buck software is that all you whiners are asking for the same level of support (free upgrades, support for new hardware that didn't exist when the software came out) on a $45 product. And I wouldn't be surprised if the people at Papyrus have grown tired of cart sims, nor would I be surprised if they didn't enter the already saturated formula one market. They have hit the nail on the head for the majority of people by trying new things. I would much rather try SODA, or GPL than face yet another prettied up, modified rehash of an old concept. Stephen

% >Naturally you have conclusive proof of this....? You don't?! You're % >just speculating?! % No, it's a well-known fact - 3dfx is themselves doing the patch to the % Nascar2 code, not Papyrus. Which makes total sense to me. Either Papyrus takes away people who are working on development for future products . . . OR, Allow the experts to do it and provide the necessary code and technical assistance. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>Food for thought. In my recently received "InterAction" mag, there is a >picture of a new Toyota Atlantic Series (minor league for CART) car that >will be sponsored by Papyrus. In the column devoted to this news it >states (and I'll quote): I was this year at the Montreal Formula 1 GP (like every year). There's some less important series that also run during the weekend. One of them was the Toyota Formula Atlantic. There was a car sponsored by Per4mer. I just hoped he didn't had one of their crappy wheel on his real racecar ;-) The first day of the GP (Friday), I arrived at 7:00am on the track. There was some minor qualification sessions, etc.. The F1 was at 11:00am, and the Atlantic series had some testing before. I was talking to my friend who was there (I was in Senna's corner) when I saw a car go by. Whoooom!.... I just saw it like for a fraction of a second, but this was enough to have my attention. I said "Naw. That can't be". But I waited an entire lap and yes I could be. PAPYRUS sponsored a Atlantic car this year. YES. I hear some people say "Really ? D'uh ? Why didn't they told that to us ??". I dunno. I was very proud to see the car with the Papyrus logo on the car (primary sponsor, on the wings/sides). I don't even know the name of the driver. Papyrus should make more publicity on this car, if they ever return with the team, or their future plans. I am sure that some of us would be interested into knowing that ! Fran?ois Mnard, "ymenard" on NROS sponsored by http://www.awpss.com

>>Really? I'm surprised then that the 3dFX guys are saying that they >>couldn't have done it without the help of Papyrus >All they said was that Papyrus wrote the original game. Duh. Oh Joe, give it a rest. If 3dFX (who know what is going on) can acknowledge Papyrus' efforts in providing a 3dFX patch, surely you can. Please tell ne exactly which part of.... ----------- 5. What programmer can we send a massive email "thanks" to when it is completed? :-)Papyrus programmers. It is with their code and support that this port has progressed. Nothing could have happened without their efforts. ----------- ...you can't understand. The word "support" obviously. Doesn't sound like "Yeah Papy wrote the original game but we did everything else" to me. Cheers! John

>Oh Joe, give it a rest. If 3dFX (who know what is going on) can >acknowledge Papyrus' efforts in providing a 3dFX patch, surely you >can. You give it a rest - you are twisting their words. Papyrus is NOT providing the patch. Joe

> >Correct me if I am wrong ... but doesn't Papy need a license from CART > >to repackage the game under that banner? That being the case, why > >couldn't they update it and release a CART III if they so chose? Eric T. Busch Replied: And I add: Food for thought. In my recently received "InterAction" mag, there is a picture of a new Toyota Atlantic Series (minor league for CART) car that will be sponsored by Papyrus. In the column devoted to this news it states (and I'll quote): "Evidence of its committment to motorsports, Papyrus plans for open-wheeled racing in the months and years ahead, but for more information on that, you'll have to look for future issues of 'InterAction' magazine." Now, whether it's referring solely to GPL, or whether Papy is leaving the door open for modern-era open wheelers, is anybody's guess. But with the many problems of the newest round of open wheel offerings, it could be that ol' Papy isn't ready to step down from CART-type racing just yet. Have Fun... Andre

Hi Doug. I have absolutely no problem with constructive criticism, indeed I'm sure any of the software companies here would actively welcome it. A lot of the posts recently were, IMO, losing the "constructive" and being simply criticism. An opinion is great, but "this sucks" or "you aren't doing a good enough job" tells only of dissatisfaction. Get into the WHY and it starts to be useful. If something cannot be quantitied and justified it tells little. Yay! My sentiments exactly. I know our opinions differ on the role that Papyrus are taking in this, and whether or nor that is right or wrong, but the bottom line is that a 3dFX patch is on the way. Whatever the mechanics of the deal, what we requested is being supplied, and I for one am really looking forward to it, especially as the rumours state that it is Glide. What is even better is the experience that the Papyrus guys will be getting of working with 3dFX, both card and company. That should help in ensuring not only support for 3dFX in future products, but leading edge support which uses the chipset in full. Here again we agree to differ. The game is frame locked to 30fps AFAIK, and that frame rate is achievable on a P188 in SVGA. A 3dFX patch won't go amiss, but it certainly isn't necessary for the fun factor. Hurling a buggy of the jump toward T1, downshifting in mid-air and trying to hold the slide as the rears lock up on landing and pitch you into the corner is great fun, and certainly in my case the driving is so frantic that I rarely have time to notice anything other than the CCs. Well, when someone calls me "silly" it's difficult to see how else to interpret it. No problem though, we're both just arguing for the same thing from different viewpoints. Cheers! John

>Well, when someone calls me "silly" it's difficult to see how else to >interpret it. No problem though, we're both just arguing for the same >thing from different viewpoints. No offense, but getting bent out of shape over the word "silly", especially on the volatile usenet, is, well, silly. That's gotta be the tamest "flame" I've seen in ten years. ;-) Joe

>Not worked up, just pointing out that Papyrus business decision-making >around 3d cards has been very flawed, and as a result they are amoung >the last companies on earth to support leading edge cards. _Who's_ decision making Joe? You're speculating again.... ;-) Cheers! John

>No offense, but getting bent out of shape over the word "silly", >especially on the volatile usenet, is, well, silly. That's gotta be >the tamest "flame" I've seen in ten years. ;-) "Bent out of shape" is a bit extreme, I simply pointed out that such a comment wasn't necessary wasn't necessary, I'd prefer not to see it in future, and proceeded to give a reasoned response. Calling someone "silly" isn't a big deal, but if you're hoping to conduct some kind of *** conversation it's generally not a good opener. Try going downtown today and address everyone you meet as "silly", then come back and report how it changed their attitude toward you. It's about how you are perceived by the person you are communicating with, not only about how it affects them. Cheers! John

>>Not worked up, just pointing out that Papyrus business decision-making >>around 3d cards has been very flawed, and as a result they are amoung >>the last companies on earth to support leading edge cards. >_Who's_ decision making Joe? You're speculating again.... ;-) Oh, please, GMAB. Papyrus products, Papyrus decision making. I don't think that's a HUGE leap to make. Joe

>You give it a rest - you are twisting their words. Papyrus is NOT >providing the patch. Please tell me the words I twisted. If you can, I'd like you to post the words which were actually stated by Papyrus or 3dFX, and "my version" of those words. I think you'll find it impossible. I'm sorry Joe, but in this case you are the guy twisting everyone's words. You have just stated that Papyrus were only involved because they wrote the original code. and nothing more than that. First of all you and I both know that what you said is total BS (since 3dFX themselves have praised the support from Papyrus, and common-sense tells you that such a product couldn't be reverse engineered), and secondly even if Papyrus _had_ only supplied the code, you couldn't possibly lnow that. If you are on an anti-Papyrus trip then that's fine by me, I'm only against people rumour-mongering and giving credence to things they cannot hope to know the facts about. State your opinions sure, but you could at least have the courtesy to acknowledge effort when a company changes their plans to give you what you want. Pity help Microsoft when they release a perfect patch for CPR - are you gonna flame them too, telling them TRI did all the work and they didnt even supply the code? Cheers! John

>Please tell me the words I twisted. If you can, I'd like you to post >the words which were actually stated by Papyrus or 3dFX, and "my >version" of those words. Not interested in playing your word-twisting games, sorry, you'll have to find someone else to play with. Joe

Uh......yeah, right.

>Oh, please, GMAB. Papyrus products, Papyrus decision making. I don't >think that's a HUGE leap to make. It must be wonderful to be you. Every situation, every decision is entirely your own, and utterly black and white. All unsullied by outside influence. It's a small logical step only if you choose not to look further than necessary to support your opinion. I personally prefer to consider all possibilities before even arriving at an opinion, hence the fact that I find it impossible to say one way or the other. I do, however, wonder how other can speak with such assurance on a subject they cannot claim to hold knowledge of. Cheers! John

>Not interested in playing your word-twisting games, sorry, you'll have >to find someone else to play with. All I asked was to justify what you said - you've been playing for ages, why give up now?! :) Cheers! John