F1RS too difficult for ex-F1 driver

Marc Surer was on a German F1 TV show this weekend. They had set up a nice little virtual***pit with seat, pedals, head restraints and wheel with paddle shifters. Up on the big screen was F1RS. Surer's face was a picture of steely concentration. He spun twice in his first out lap. I guess we sim drivers aren't so bad at what we do...

> Marc Surer was on a German F1 TV show this weekend. They had set > up a nice little virtual***pit with seat, pedals, head restraints > and wheel with paddle shifters. Up on the big screen was F1RS. > Surer's face was a picture of steely concentration. He spun > twice in his first out lap. I guess we sim drivers aren't so > bad at what we do... I remember seeing Marc Surer at the 1983 Belgium GP, driving the Arrows car like a rally car in the wet conditions. When was the last time you saw a GP car in a power oversteer through La Source? Quite a driver. Keep in mind that F1RS has some serious shortcomings as a simulation, but it is a lot of fun with great graphics. Keith.

> > Marc Surer was on a German F1 TV show this weekend. They had set > > up a nice little virtual***pit with seat, pedals, head restraints > > and wheel with paddle shifters. Up on the big screen was F1RS. > > Surer's face was a picture of steely concentration. He spun > > twice in his first out lap. I guess we sim drivers aren't so > > bad at what we do... It's not that your better or worse, it's just different. I remember Johnny Herbert saying that he'd played GP2 and managed to take the front nose off the car 3 times in the first few minutes! MarkH

: : > Marc Surer was on a German F1 TV show this weekend. They had set : > up a nice little virtual***pit with seat, pedals, head restraints : > and wheel with paddle shifters. Up on the big screen was F1RS. : > Surer's face was a picture of steely concentration. He spun : > twice in his first out lap. I guess we sim drivers aren't so : > bad at what we do... : : : : I remember seeing Marc Surer at the 1983 Belgium GP, driving the Arrows : car like a rally car in the wet conditions. When was the last time you : saw a GP car in a power oversteer through La Source? Quite a driver. : Keep in mind that F1RS has some serious shortcomings as a simulation, : but it is a lot of fun with great graphics. : : : Keith. : My note was, of course, tongue in cheek. I know very well what sort of driver Surer is. Generally, most "real" drivers do very poorly when given a computer game to play around with. The BTCC drivers can't do well with TOCA, Villeneuve qualified a lowly 18th at Spa in GP2 etc. etc. Probably a good indication that these are all only games, and we should stop bickering over which is the most accurate sim. SF

Hi, you really made me laugh at the last sentence :) Ofcourse we're good when we spend hours playing games like that. But we're playing games, if one spins out at 200kmh corner, he just simply reloads and heads for another lap. Unfortunately, F1 drivers can't do that ;-) And this may also be the reason why Schumacher or any other good driver probably would be one of the backmarkers in F1RS or some other sim. I would just like to know how many times would you spin out on your first lap out of pits in a real F1 car if you would get a drive. Playing a game (simulation) is on thing, driving F1 car is another. F1 racer get's feedback from the car, g-forces, etc. whilst you can't feels such things with a simulation. No wonder he spun twice. Drivers usually don't listen (I may be wrong here) to the sound but rather rely on their experience and the feel they have while being behind the wheel. The only feedback you get in a sim is a sound and (sometimes) a nice graphics (brake smoke). Nowdays force-feedback is introduced into sim games, which may help a bit though. P.S.: Go out and borrow some gokart and turn some laps. Then go back home and run Virtual Karts or something like that. You may be amazed by the difference of input you get from actual driving and a game running on you computer. Regards, Tadej Krevh

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> : > : > Marc Surer was on a German F1 TV show this weekend. They had set > : > up a nice little virtual***pit with seat, pedals, head restraints > : > and wheel with paddle shifters. Up on the big screen was F1RS. > : > Surer's face was a picture of steely concentration. He spun > : > twice in his first out lap. I guess we sim drivers aren't so > : > bad at what we do... > : > : > : > : I remember seeing Marc Surer at the 1983 Belgium GP, driving the Arrows > : car like a rally car in the wet conditions. When was the last time you > : saw a GP car in a power oversteer through La Source? Quite a driver. > : Keep in mind that F1RS has some serious shortcomings as a simulation, > : but it is a lot of fun with great graphics. > : > : > : Keith. > : > My note was, of course, tongue in cheek. I know very well what sort > of driver Surer is. Generally, most "real" drivers do very poorly > when given a computer game to play around with. The BTCC drivers > can't do well with TOCA, Villeneuve qualified a lowly 18th at Spa > in GP2 etc. etc. Probably a good indication that these are all only > games, and we should stop bickering over which is the most accurate sim. > SF

You're right, it is very difficult to go from driving a real car to a sim where your only reference is the screen. Good sim drivers will be able to spot a the tail of the car stepping out from subtle changes in the direction of travel whereas a a real GP or BTCC driver will try to feel the back of the car stepping out through his backside. In real terms there is no advantage to be gained in having experienced the situatuion being simulated so the guys who have tried the sims are in the same position as all of us were at one point - having never seen the game. In reality these guys may be slightly better than your average sim rookie by virtue of having good reactions and inherent instincts of what to do when the car gets sideways.

R: True and I believe that all sims make the driving to hairy in their sims compared to the real mcoy. I know I can drive a real Nascar around a track (not as fast as a pro grant you) but keep it steady and under control the first time out. You give me joe schmo off the street and I put him in any sim game and he's going to look like a drunken fool in any sim you pick for several laps. The closest thing in my book (jaded as it is) is Nascar Arcade, that car sticks much more to the track like the real ones. I can take the schmo's to our place and put them in the game and after a few laps they can race and have some fun!!! If a sim was like real driving nobody would survive out there... Only a very very few games imo have captured the sense of control well and all could be better by a ton yet. But I'll make due. :) Q.B.M.

: Marc Surer was on a German F1 TV show this weekend. They had set : up a nice little virtual***pit with seat, pedals, head restraints : and wheel with paddle shifters. Up on the big screen was F1RS. : Surer's face was a picture of steely concentration. He spun : twice in his first out lap. I guess we sim drivers aren't so : bad at what we do... To those who had a chuckle at my last line, and recognized the intent, you can skip on to the next thread. To those who felt I had made a personal attack on Mr. Surer, or who thought that I was equating sim driving to real driving, perhaps you could tell me which version of a "smiley" I need to emphasize irony. I'm sure Surer's pre*** thought was "what a silly game". Until someone starts shaking the tub around, it doesn't simulate the *most important* stimulus that drivers rely on. Having driven a fair number of winter rallies in various FWD and RWD cars, I know that you drive with your ass. regards Stephen

How can you see where you're going if you're driving "with your ass" ??!!?? John -- John Hartridge | FUJIFILM Electronic Imaging Ltd Senior Software Engineer | Three Cherry Trees Lane, Internal phone 3282 | Hert HP2 7RH

On 17 Mar 1998 11:10:55 GMT, "John Hartridge"

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>> rely on. Having driven a fair number of winter rallies in >> various FWD and RWD cars, I know that you drive with your ass. >How can you see where you're going if you're driving "with >your ass" ??!!?? >John

John, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the winter rallies are conducted with both a driver and co-driver in the car. So Steve is likely referring to his teammate... Although I can't see for the life of me how his remarks benefit team morale! ;) Regards, Dave

says... Maybe this is why I'm so one eyed when discussing collisions... Brian

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>How can you see where you're going if you're driving "with >your ass" ??!!?? >John >-- >John Hartridge | FUJIFILM Electronic Imaging Ltd >Senior Software Engineer | Three Cherry Trees Lane, >Internal phone 3282 | Hert HP2 7RH

-- remove 'bye' from address to reply

: On 17 Mar 1998 11:10:55 GMT, "John Hartridge" : : >> rely on. Having driven a fair number of winter rallies in : >> various FWD and RWD cars, I know that you drive with your ass. : >> : > : >How can you see where you're going if you're driving "with : >your ass" ??!!?? : > : >John : : John, : : I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the winter rallies are : conducted with both a driver and co-driver in the car. So Steve is : likely referring to his teammate... Although I can't see for the life : of me how his remarks benefit team morale! ;) : : Regards, : : Dave You've obviously met my co-driver :) Stephen

Ok ok, so the *** has started ;) -- Dave Bowers

>My note was, of course, tongue in cheek. I know very well what sort >of driver Surer is. Generally, most "real" drivers do very poorly >when given a computer game to play around with. The BTCC drivers >can't do well with TOCA, Villeneuve qualified a lowly 18th at Spa >in GP2 etc. etc. Probably a good indication that these are all only >games, and we should stop bickering over which is the most accurate sim. I don't think that's the point at all. The reason these drivers don't do as well in sims is that we've robbed them of their most valuable senses for sampling traction. They get nothing from the wheel, from their rear end, or from their inner ear, and yet they sit down and try anyway. Think of it this way...if you're blind, you'll develop keener senses of hearing and smell to compensate, because you're missing visual senses. I think we in the sim world are in the same space. We do very well when deprived of the senses of a race car driver because we've never had them. REAL drivers have them and depend upon them, and suddenly they cannot FEEL the car the way they do in real life, so they lose traction. I'd be willing to bet that my analysis would prove to be right on if tested. Sims are great for developing many racing skills, but only seat time can improve your overall sense of driving at the limit. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

Well I raced before sim games were out and I still did well once I started playing sim games. I agree that you are robbed of your sense of acceleration but the principles are still the same. Thanks John +AD4- +AD4APg-My note was, of course, tongue in cheek. I know very well what sort +AD4APg-of driver Surer is. Generally, most +ACI-real+ACI- drivers do very poorly +AD4APg-when given a computer game to play around with. The BTCC drivers +AD4APg-can't do well with TOCA, Villeneuve qualified a lowly 18th at Spa +AD4APg-in GP2 etc. etc. Probably a good indication that these are all only +AD4APg-games, and we should stop bickering over which is the most accurate sim. +AD4- +AD4-I don't think that's the point at all. The reason these drivers don't +AD4-do as well in sims is that we've robbed them of their most valuable +AD4-senses for sampling traction. They get nothing from the wheel, from +AD4-their rear end, or from their inner ear, and yet they sit down and try +AD4-anyway. Think of it this way...if you're blind, you'll develop keener +AD4-senses of hearing and smell to compensate, because you're missing +AD4-visual senses. I think we in the sim world are in the same space. We +AD4-do very well when deprived of the senses of a race car driver because +AD4-we've never had them. REAL drivers have them and depend upon them, +AD4-and suddenly they cannot FEEL the car the way they do in real life, so +AD4-they lose traction. +AD4- +AD4-I'd be willing to bet that my analysis would prove to be right on if +AD4-tested. Sims are great for developing many racing skills, but only +AD4-seat time can improve your overall sense of driving at the limit. +AD4- +AD4-Randy +AD4-Randy Magruder +AD4-Contributing Reviewer +AD4-Digital Sportspage +AD4-http://www.digitalsports.com +AD4-