GPL - I'm not trashing it.

Those of you who think I'm slagging off GPL as some kind of disaster have not gotten the picture. I think in terms of attempting to simulate, for example, independant suspension movements or crash dynamics, it is unparalleled. The sim is beautiful to look at, the sounds are nice, the menus are very elegantly and efficiently done, and the cars look fantastic and yes the experience is rather visceral. The problem lies with how the physical control device inputs are handled. The steering maintains the same sensitivity at high and low speed. This is just not right. It is an extremely glaring oversight. The braking input is just not right either. This problem is not peculiar to GPL, it is inherent in all Papyrus sims -- I'll say it again -- ALL PAPYRUS SIMS. . The physical control inputs of GP2 are far superior to any sim you can buy now. Goeff Crammond's GP2 solves the problem of sensitive high speed steering inputs by allowing you to reduce the sensitivity as the car speeds up. His braking inputs are far more responsive and firm. With GPL, brake inputs are mushy and so it is more or less a matter of determining how many centimetres of braking you should be applying. It's hard to explain but GP2's braking feels real in terms of my actual experience of driving a real car. Maybe someone on this newsgroup can explain more technically the braking sensation differences between the two sims. I think there are a lot of Papyrus simmers on this newsgroup who have never experienced GP2 and so really cannot make a comparative analyisis of the control input issues that I am bringing up. Furthermore, I know a lot you you have been telling me that this is only a demo, but I have this gut feeling that Papyrus will not correct this problem, because they haven't done so in any of their other sims.

I certainly prefer driving the GP2 model, but only because its a lot easier than the way Papyrus does things (I think the papyrus way is more realistic however) this makes it easier to concentrate on racing than actually driving. OTOH for hotlapping I prefer Papyrus as the concentration with these games is more on the actual driving than the racing. I suppose it just depends on what you want from a sim - the racing or the driving? Steve

I'd also like to note for the audience that, in addition to your omniscient expertise in auto racing sims, suspension physics and feedback, what others SHOULD think according to "Charles Mak", and the hearts and minds of sim designers everywhere, a brief scan of your contributions to humanity as recorded in DejaNews reveals -- your modesty becomes you, Charles! -- an equally awe-inspiring abd authoritative (not to mention authoritarian!) command of such diverse subjects as: F1 (the "real" one) hockey hockey sims racism in hockey sims cricket cricket sims aircraft sims sports sims naval sims naval doctrine, tactics, and history interior design hypochondria scuba diving (well, you admitted you're a novice at that, but I'm sure you'll be as skilled as the best in, say, fif*** minutes or so...) How could I ever have had the temerity to question your absolute knowledge of something as simple as motorsports sims, when you are obviously the breathing embodiment of the Renaissance man? I am a convert. Please spill more of your abundant wisdom from that glowing cornucopia... Bart Brown

Maybe you can explain to me how a car turns farther with the same input at a slower speed as apposed to a higher speed. There are no wings on these cars to interact with grip, so turning should be near the same anyway. And as for the brakes, in the 60s, the brakes sucked! I agree with you though, GP2 has got alot of things going right for it, but you won't catch me turning steering help on on that sim, I like the feel of it just like it is!

Quoted text (10 lines)

>Those of you who think I'm slagging off GPL as some kind of disaster have >not gotten the picture. I think in terms of attempting to simulate, for >example, independant suspension movements or crash dynamics, it is >unparalleled. The sim is beautiful to look at, the sounds are nice, the >menus are very elegantly and efficiently done, and the cars look fantastic >and yes the experience is rather visceral. >The problem lies with how the physical control device inputs are handled. >The steering maintains the same sensitivity at high and low speed. This is >just not right. It is an extremely glaring oversight. The braking input

is

Quoted text (19 lines)

>just not right either. This problem is not peculiar to GPL, it is inherent >in all Papyrus sims -- I'll say it again -- ALL PAPYRUS SIMS. . >The physical control inputs of GP2 are far superior to any sim you can buy >now. Goeff Crammond's GP2 solves the problem of sensitive high speed >steering inputs by allowing you to reduce the sensitivity as the car speeds >up. His braking inputs are far more responsive and firm. With GPL, brake >inputs are mushy and so it is more or less a matter of determining how many >centimetres of braking you should be applying. It's hard to explain but >GP2's braking feels real in terms of my actual experience of driving a real >car. Maybe someone on this newsgroup can explain more technically the >braking sensation differences between the two sims. >I think there are a lot of Papyrus simmers on this newsgroup who have never >experienced GP2 and so really cannot make a comparative analyisis of the >control input issues that I am bringing up. Furthermore, I know a lot you >you have been telling me that this is only a demo, but I have this gut >feeling that Papyrus will not correct this problem, because they haven't >done so in any of their other sims.

<GP2 vs. GPL troll bait snipped> If you want to compare to sims when it comes down to control, steering and throttle and braking, compare F1RS and GPL. To date they are the only ones that I think have the "pheel" right. While I don't know that much about the physics engine in F1RS, I do know that GPL has a "real" physics engine. GP2 doesn't have a realistic physics engine and therefore only "feels" and doesn't quite "pheel". But, if you enjoy GP2 fine, play GP2 and wait for GP3. For those that are looking for a real simulation of driving a high peformance racing machine, stick with GPL. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Seems to me your just shit at racing sims. You cannot compare any sim like F1GP2, F1RS etc to GPL. They are completly different cars with completly different handling. 1998 F1 - V.light cars, V.Big tyres, V.Big Wings for huge grip. 1967 F1 - V.Heavy cars, Skinny grooved tyres, NO WINGS 1998 F1 = Plenty of high speed grip = no 4-wheel drifts, occasional oversteer due to power over grip at low speeds. 1967 F1= Only grip from tyres + plently of power = arse all grip = plenty of careful 4-wheel drift. Therefore stop thinking that cause you may be able to drive a car in F1GP you can automatically drive a car in GPL. Go away and practice forget everything about todays F1 and stop spamming your ***in this newsgroup.

Quoted text (10 lines)

>Those of you who think I'm slagging off GPL as some kind of disaster have >not gotten the picture. I think in terms of attempting to simulate, for >example, independant suspension movements or crash dynamics, it is >unparalleled. The sim is beautiful to look at, the sounds are nice, the >menus are very elegantly and efficiently done, and the cars look fantastic >and yes the experience is rather visceral. >The problem lies with how the physical control device inputs are handled. >The steering maintains the same sensitivity at high and low speed. This is >just not right. It is an extremely glaring oversight. The braking input

is

Quoted text (19 lines)

>just not right either. This problem is not peculiar to GPL, it is inherent >in all Papyrus sims -- I'll say it again -- ALL PAPYRUS SIMS. . >The physical control inputs of GP2 are far superior to any sim you can buy >now. Goeff Crammond's GP2 solves the problem of sensitive high speed >steering inputs by allowing you to reduce the sensitivity as the car speeds >up. His braking inputs are far more responsive and firm. With GPL, brake >inputs are mushy and so it is more or less a matter of determining how many >centimetres of braking you should be applying. It's hard to explain but >GP2's braking feels real in terms of my actual experience of driving a real >car. Maybe someone on this newsgroup can explain more technically the >braking sensation differences between the two sims. >I think there are a lot of Papyrus simmers on this newsgroup who have never >experienced GP2 and so really cannot make a comparative analyisis of the >control input issues that I am bringing up. Furthermore, I know a lot you >you have been telling me that this is only a demo, but I have this gut >feeling that Papyrus will not correct this problem, because they haven't >done so in any of their other sims.

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:32:39 -0500, "George Buhr II" >Maybe you can explain to me how a car turns farther with the same input at a >slower speed as apposed to a higher speed. There are no wings on these cars >to interact with grip, so turning should be near the same anyway. I'll try to explain with the little english I know... When wheels are rotating really fast, they develop what we call "rotational inertia". You can reproduce it with a stick going through the center of a bicycle wheel. If you'd try and move the stick while the wheel's rolling (changing the angle of it's axle, like when you're steering it), you'd feel a force that fights your inputs and tries to keep the wheel in it's previous position. The "rotational inertia" is what causes the wheel to be more difficult to turn. Now I don't exactly know how much RPMs the wheel do on those cars, but since the inertial forces increase with RPM I guess this would have some kind of influence. So then you have to work harder in order to make the wheels turn. And since some pieces used in the steering mechanism are somewhat flexible and the inertial forces fight against their movement, you end up having less movement from the wheels for the same input on your steering wheel. I think that's what he means. A. Renault

Quoted text (19 lines)

> Ah very > good!!! > This coming from the Ego maniac!!! > This Barton guy posted over 2300 > times in groups from Rec. model.railroad > to scottish clans? > Very interesting > were you looking for a Kilt > Bart? Let me guess you wanted a Kilt > because the > sheep could hear your zipper? > All together Bart has posted to over 17 NGs. > Pretty interesting he frequents Microsoft groups? > From past posts I thought > he was a MS hater > of sorts. Hmmm very interesting!!!!!!!!!! > Not > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Disguised Gutless Wonders ==----

Dear gutless wonder, If you're going to attempt to slag me, at least have the fortitude to do so using your real name, rather than posting anonymous potshots from the protection of DejaNews. Another example of the phenomenon of a big mouth getting way ahead of an underdeveloped brain. I've been on the net a long time. I've posted in many groups, because I have many interests. I frequent Microsoft groups because I'm a Mac computer consultant, and unfortunately often have to deal with Macs networked with PCs and NT servers. It's my job. I do indeed have -- and wear, on occasion -- a kilt. I'm Clan Wallace, my grandmother was born Margaret Wallace in the Bridge of Weir Orphanage in Glasgow. My daughter was recently married in a full Scots ceremony, and as father of the bride and groomsman to my son-in-law, I wore the complete dress kilt -- sporran, skian dubh, and all. After inquiring in the Scots newsgroups, I bought my kilt from the American importer for Hugh McPherson. While I have posted to many of these groups over the years, in none of them have I presented myself as an infallible expert on anything, unlike this "Charles Mak" (I think you know quite well who he is), who presents himself as an incontrovertible expert on everything. You and he were made for each other -- perhaps made FROM each other. BTW, the old joke about the kilt, the zipper, and the sheep has been around about 100 years longer than you have, if I've correctly guessed your age at 14. Bart Brown

Quoted text (7 lines)

> The problem is you pal. The fact the GP2 has a reduce with speed >adjustment makes it more arcade than sim. This effectively allows you to >change the inertia feedback and IS NOT realistic ay all. The reduce with >speed is built into Papy sims as it should be and is done perfectly. Now >let me guess! You have the slider for linearity not all the way to the >right in GPL and in other Papy sims had the steering set to non-linear >rather than linear didn't you? Set the slider to the right and shut up!

Er, I'm not quite sure how having reduce with speed is any more unrealistic than offering the option to have non-linear steering. Both are blatently unrealistic so why be so religiously against one but not denounce Papy for including the other? In previous sims Papy have included specific programming to help joystick and even keyboard drivers. 'Reduce with speed' is simply another aspect of this and I really don't see any strong argument for not having it without campaining against all the others. Even though I like very linear steering I do feel that reduce with speed is a good idea. I don't need it at the Glen but it would certainly make for better racing at somewhere like Monza. And until we get the sort of force feedback that can accurately represent the forces involved with turning a wheel at speed it seems a sensible compromise - indeed rather more sensible than allowing non-linear steering IMHO. Just because something has been picked up on by a troll doesn't automatically mean it's a bad idea ;-) And whilst on the subject I would like to see sensitivity settings for throttle and brake. I could achieve the same effect by physically messing about with my pedals (just as the RL drivers would) but it would be a heck of a lot simpler if implemented in the software <g> Cheers, Richard

> Seems to me your just shit at racing sims. > You cannot compare any sim like F1GP2, F1RS etc to GPL. They are completly > different cars with completly different handling. > 1998 F1 - V.light cars, V.Big tyres, V.Big Wings for huge grip. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Haven't you seen any of the races this year? BTW, they've got grooves too. <g>

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:09:54 -0400, "Charles Mak" >I think there are a lot of Papyrus simmers on this newsgroup who have never >experienced GP2 and so really cannot make a comparative analyisis of the >control input issues that I am bringing up. There are few enough proper sims around that I would be surprised if more than 5% of "Papyrus simmers" had not tried GP2 also. Most people know whereof they speak, but lack of a "reduce with speed" is a somewhat valid point. It's more so in modern day since the downforce will tend to make the steering heavier as speed increases, but castor steer and toe-in will have some kind of similar effect in 60's F1 - although not so related to speed. If it makes it easier it might be a worthwhile option. Cheers! John

You really have got to read Dale Carnegie's book, "How to win friends and influence people." > The problem is you pal. <SNIP> Set the slider to the right and shut up!

I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree 100%. I can see how speed would make a steering wheel harder to turn, but I don't see how this effects steering input, especially from a sim point of view. The steering components are flexible to a point, yes, but come on! These parts might flex very small fractions of an inch at best, and would hardly make a significant difference in turning ratios. Did anyone watch the Argentine Grand Prix this weekend? I noticed many of the cars including Schumacher and Villeneuve looking awful twitchy at the end of the straights. It didn't look to me like they were having to fight to get the car to turn. >On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:32:39 -0500, "George Buhr II" >>Maybe you can explain to me how a car turns farther with the same input at a >>slower speed as apposed to a higher speed. There are no wings on these cars

Quoted text (23 lines)

>>to interact with grip, so turning should be near the same anyway. >I'll try to explain with the little english I know... >When wheels are rotating really fast, they develop what we call >"rotational inertia". You can reproduce it with a stick going through >the center of a bicycle wheel. If you'd try and move the stick while >the wheel's rolling (changing the angle of it's axle, like when you're >steering it), you'd feel a force that fights your inputs and tries to >keep the wheel in it's previous position. The "rotational inertia" is >what causes the wheel to be more difficult to turn. >Now I don't exactly know how much RPMs the wheel do on those cars, but >since the inertial forces increase with RPM I guess this would have >some kind of influence. So then you have to work harder in order to >make the wheels turn. And since some pieces used in the steering >mechanism are somewhat flexible and the inertial forces fight against >their movement, you end up having less movement from the wheels for >the same input on your steering wheel. >I think that's what he means. >A. Renault

Quoted text (29 lines)

> Those of you who think I'm slagging off GPL as some kind of disaster have > not gotten the picture. I think in terms of attempting to simulate, for > example, independant suspension movements or crash dynamics, it is > unparalleled. The sim is beautiful to look at, the sounds are nice, the > menus are very elegantly and efficiently done, and the cars look fantastic > and yes the experience is rather visceral. > The problem lies with how the physical control device inputs are handled. > The steering maintains the same sensitivity at high and low speed. This is > just not right. It is an extremely glaring oversight. The braking input is > just not right either. This problem is not peculiar to GPL, it is inherent > in all Papyrus sims -- I'll say it again -- ALL PAPYRUS SIMS. . > The physical control inputs of GP2 are far superior to any sim you can buy > now. Goeff Crammond's GP2 solves the problem of sensitive high speed > steering inputs by allowing you to reduce the sensitivity as the car speeds > up. His braking inputs are far more responsive and firm. With GPL, brake > inputs are mushy and so it is more or less a matter of determining how many > centimetres of braking you should be applying. It's hard to explain but > GP2's braking feels real in terms of my actual experience of driving a real > car. Maybe someone on this newsgroup can explain more technically the > braking sensation differences between the two sims. > I think there are a lot of Papyrus simmers on this newsgroup who have never > experienced GP2 and so really cannot make a comparative analyisis of the > control input issues that I am bringing up. Furthermore, I know a lot you > you have been telling me that this is only a demo, but I have this gut > feeling that Papyrus will not correct this problem, because they haven't > done so in any of their other sims.

The problem is you pal. The fact the GP2 has a reduce with speed adjustment makes it more arcade than sim. This effectively allows you to change the inertia feedback and IS NOT realistic ay all. The reduce with speed is built into Papy sims as it should be and is done perfectly. Now let me guess! You have the slider for linearity not all the way to the right in GPL and in other Papy sims had the steering set to non-linear rather than linear didn't you? Set the slider to the right and shut up!

On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:49:16 -0500, "George Buhr II"

Quoted text (9 lines)

>I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree 100%. I can see how speed >would make a steering wheel harder to turn, but I don't see how this effects >steering input, especially from a sim point of view. The steering >components are flexible to a point, yes, but come on! These parts might >flex very small fractions of an inch at best, and would hardly make a >significant difference in turning ratios. Did anyone watch the Argentine >Grand Prix this weekend? I noticed many of the cars including Schumacher >and Villeneuve looking awful twitchy at the end of the straights. It didn't >look to me like they were having to fight to get the car to turn.

Ok maybe it only affects slightly turning ratios, but when combined to the understeer you get when you're at full speed, plus the huge downforces that press the tires ***to the pavement and cause the steering wheel to be even harder to turn (I know they have power steering now in F1, but did they have it in the 60's? I don't know for sure...) all this combined makes the car less responsive to your steering inputs. And when you're talking about twitchy cars at the end of straights in F1 don't forget that most of the twitchy behavior you're referring to happened under heavy acceleration or braking. They also feel the bumpy surface (argentina is one of the worst tracks in terms of bumpiness) and they have to hold thight to the wheel to stay in control. That's a different matter. Remember when Schumi let go of his steering wheel as he touched a curb in Monza, I think it was in 1996... Scary! So all I'm saying is that many factors contribute to making the car less responsive at high speeds. This should be refelcted somehow in the sim. Thanks for your comments, A. Renault

Finally someone replies to something Charles says without poking fun :). I can see that adding a reduce with speed option (perhaps just an increase non linearity with speed?) would make it eaasier for close racing at high speeds and therefore could well be a good thing (Shock horror two people agree with him!!!) Steve

Didn't say they have got bald tyres, but performance wise, there really hasn't been much of a change when they reduced the track and changed to grooved tyres.

> Finally someone replies to something Charles says without poking fun :). I > can see that adding a reduce with speed option (perhaps just an increase > non linearity with speed?) would make it eaasier for close racing at high > speeds and therefore could well be a good thing (Shock horror two people > agree with him!!!) It's hard not to poke fun at someone who rubbishes the best piece of software that has ever been seen IMO. Mr Mak has not just made criticisms of GPL but has basically given the impression that the whole thing stinks and is for the arcade orientated only which, in my book, makes him a complete dodo who obviously has not much experience with sims. He also has admitted that he uses his beloved and very realistic GP2 with opposite lock help. What can I say? Anyway, after a few hours with GPL I am most definantly ready for traffic. Papy, if your here, change nothing! It seems most of these guys are not accustomed to body roll/weight transfer.

Quoted text (32 lines)

> > The problem is you pal. The fact the GP2 has a reduce with speed > >adjustment makes it more arcade than sim. This effectively allows you to > >change the inertia feedback and IS NOT realistic ay all. The reduce with > >speed is built into Papy sims as it should be and is done perfectly. Now > >let me guess! You have the slider for linearity not all the way to the > >right in GPL and in other Papy sims had the steering set to non-linear > >rather than linear didn't you? Set the slider to the right and shut up! > Er, I'm not quite sure how having reduce with speed is any more > unrealistic than offering the option to have non-linear steering. Both > are blatently unrealistic so why be so religiously against one but not > denounce Papy for including the other? > In previous sims Papy have included specific programming to help joystick > and even keyboard drivers. 'Reduce with speed' is simply another aspect > of this and I really don't see any strong argument for not having it > without campaining against all the others. > Even though I like very linear steering I do feel that reduce with speed > is a good idea. I don't need it at the Glen but it would certainly make > for better racing at somewhere like Monza. And until we get the sort of > force feedback that can accurately represent the forces involved with > turning a wheel at speed it seems a sensible compromise - indeed rather > more sensible than allowing non-linear steering IMHO. > Just because something has been picked up on by a troll doesn't > automatically mean it's a bad idea ;-) > And whilst on the subject I would like to see sensitivity settings for > throttle and brake. I could achieve the same effect by physically messing > about with my pedals (just as the RL drivers would) but it would be a > heck of a lot simpler if implemented in the software <g>

You seem to have hit the nail on the head here Richard. Mostly at least. As you say, both are unrealistic so the fewer the better. All Papy sims I use I have used the linear option and with GPL I set the slider all the way to the right which is the same thing. I would be happy obviously if all Papy sims just had the steering set to Linear and had no option. And I believe this would be correct too. Reason being that you then have a situation where sim wheel deflection is proportional to the torque a drivers hands would be applying to a real steering wheel which for my money is the best solution in these days of non FF wheels. The funny thing is that in all Papy manuals they recomend linear for joysticks and non-linear for wheels, something I have always thought to be wrong and all the good ICR2 drivers I know agree. Perhaps also different wheels using pots with different ratings (ohmage) have varying inbuilt linearity so the inclusion of a linearity slider is perhaps excusable :) But I definantly believe that these reduce with speed options should be killed off. Apart from anything else, they're just a pain to fiddle about with. Just give me steering lock and linear steering when FF is done right.

Man it must have been late! Please read this fixed version. I confused "linear" with "non - linear" at just about every opportunity in that last dribble :)

Quoted text (23 lines)

> You seem to have hit the nail on the head here Richard. Mostly at > least. > As you say, both are unrealistic so the fewer the better. All Papy > sims I use I have used the non - linear option and with GPL I set the slider > all the way to the right which is the same thing. I would be happy > obviously if all Papy sims just had the steering set to non - Linear and had > no option. > And I believe this would be correct too. Reason being that you then > have a situation where sim wheel deflection is proportional to the > torque a drivers hands would be applying to a real steering wheel which > for my money is the best solution in these days of non FF wheels. The > funny thing is that in all Papy manuals they recomend non - linear for > joysticks and linear for wheels, something I have always thought to > be wrong and all the good ICR2 drivers I know agree. > Perhaps also different wheels using pots with different ratings > (ohmage) have varying inbuilt linearity so the inclusion of a linearity > slider is perhaps excusable :) But I definantly believe that these > reduce with speed options should be killed off. Apart from anything > else, they're just a pain to fiddle about with. Just give me steering > lock and linear steering when FF is done right.

> As you say, both are unrealistic so the fewer the better. All Papy >sims I use I have used the linear option and with GPL I set the slider >all the way to the right which is the same thing. I would be happy >obviously if all Papy sims just had the steering set to Linear and had >no option. The *right*? That is the full NON linear setting with a huge unrealistic null zone - I hope you're just getting your left and right confused :-)) btw - I find that the full linear setting (you know, the one over on the left <g>) is actually more linear than previous Papy sims. I disagree with you here - with linear steering the sim is accurately reflecting the *deflection* of the wheel. IRL the torque is dependent on car speed and cannot be portrayed in a non-FF wheel where the torque is constant for a given deflection irrespective of the car's speed. No wonder I never read the manuals ;-) Linear pots should all be pretty linear and if not they probably won't be symmetrically non-linear around the centre point but progressively non-linear from left to right (or right to left <g>). That might be good for oval racing but would be a disaster for road racing. I think people with joysticks would find linear settings impossible to drive with. It is usually very difficult to move a joystick precisely close to it's centre point. Effectively excluding joystick users would likely make the product unprofitable. Anyway, having done some experimentation with the linearity settings I'm now running with it fully linear and driving around by myself at least don't find any need at all for a reduce with speed option. The car is easy to turn in and very easy to correct with just small, natural movements required. About the only point where I might want some form of steering help is that if I experiment with the glance left/right options I start drifiting all over the track <vbg> Cheers, Richard

Well, yes there is all that I suppose :-) I was just surprised he made a point someone agreed with :-) Steve

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > The problem is you pal. The fact the GP2 has a reduce with speed > >adjustment makes it more arcade than sim. This effectively allows you to > >change the inertia feedback and IS NOT realistic ay all. The reduce with > >speed is built into Papy sims as it should be and is done perfectly. Now > >let me guess! You have the slider for linearity not all the way to the > >right in GPL and in other Papy sims had the steering set to non-linear > >rather than linear didn't you? Set the slider to the right and shut up! > Er, I'm not quite sure how having reduce with speed is any more > unrealistic than offering the option to have non-linear steering. Both > are blatently unrealistic so why be so religiously against one but not > denounce Papy for including the other?

No, a steering linkage is essentially a four-bar linkage. I can design a four bar linkage that exhibits non-linear properties. In fact, your road car has some non-linearity to it (unless the Ackerman is exactly zero). I can assure you that it does not have any "reduce angular relationship with speed" feature to it. ---Jim

> The funny thing is that in all Papy manuals they recomend linear for > joysticks and non-linear for wheels, something I have always thought > to be wrong and all the good ICR2 drivers I know agree. That [the manual text] is wrong, but I thought that only went out in the manual for NASCAR2, not "all Papy manuals." ---Jim

I'll bow to your superior knowledge - does that extend to being able to state that 1967 F1 race cars had non-linear steering though? <g> And if they did, did any of them have the very high degree of non-linearity possible to select in GPL? (I shudder to think of any driver that would *want* that sort of non-linearity!) What I'm trying to get at is that compromises have to be made in order to transfer the mechanical motion of wheel / pedals / joystick into digital inputs to the game engine. None of the currently available control combinations are exactly like that used in any race car, let alone a Lotus 49 ;-) None of them offer the correct feedback that *does* vary with speed - and FF will not be capable of doing so for some time. So if one particular compromise is deemed acceptable then why not others? Where should the line be sensibly drawn? If an, admittedly unrealistic, 'reduce with speed' option allows the *simulation* of the different torque required to turn the front wheels at different speeds then is this necessarily so evil? Just my 2 pence worth. Cheers, Richard

>No, a steering linkage is essentially a four-bar linkage. I can design >a four bar linkage that exhibits non-linear properties. In fact, your >road car has some non-linearity to it (unless the Ackerman is exactly >zero). Could you explain in a few words what the "Ackerman" is? (and don't just say "no". :) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> >No, a steering linkage is essentially a four-bar linkage. I can > design > >a four bar linkage that exhibits non-linear properties. In fact, your > >road car has some non-linearity to it (unless the Ackerman is exactly > >zero). > Could you explain in a few words what the "Ackerman" is? (and don't > just say "no". :)

The Ackerman angle is the difference in steering lock/yaw angle between the inner and outer front wheels in a turn. Some Ackerman is built-in to help reduce understeer, especially on Front wheel drive cars, and for tight circuits. Cheers, Matt

> > As you say, both are unrealistic so the fewer the better. All Papy > >sims I use I have used the linear option and with GPL I set the slider > >all the way to the right which is the same thing. I would be happy > >obviously if all Papy sims just had the steering set to Linear and had > >no option. Damn it. In this post of mine I confused linear with non linear just about everywhere :((((( Let me try again :) As you say, both are unrealistic so the fewer the better. All Papy sims I use I have used the non linear option and with GPL I set the slider all the way to the right which is the same thing. I would be happy obviously if all Papy sims just had the steering set to non linear and had no option. This is the reason I find non linear more accurate/real. Because the torque/deflection you apply to your sim wheel seems to me to feel more realistic. Of course it does not look realistic ie I may use quite a large wheel deflection at high speed, but this deflection is indicative of how hard your trying to turn the wheel rather than how much it is actually turning. In other words, with non linear you have sim wheel defection is proportional to (or there abouts) the torque applied to the actual wheel of a real car. On the other hand, with linear you have sim wheel deflection is proportional to real wheel deflection. I suppose you can argue as to which is more realistic but I think the non linear way is since torque is the factor which dictates real wheel deflections and NL just feels so much better/natural/realistic to me. Of course, with the introduction of proper FF the linear way will most definantly be the way of the future and will signal the end of the days of non linear steering options. Once again, sorry for my original screwups :) And again :( let me try again, hehehehe. The funny thing is that in all Papy manuals they recomend non linear for joysticks (correct IMO) and linear for wheels, something I have always thought to be wrong and all the good ICR2 drivers I know agree. Oh no, not again! Make that "Just give me steering lock and linear steering when FF is done right. See corrections above. As you seem suprised at the way I use GPL ie full non linear (yes, this is right, heheheheh), I am very suprised you can control the car in a straight line with full linearity. What you refer to as the "huge dead zone" is not as "dead as you think and makes for very accurate input and clean driving. Once again, it's a feel thing.

> > The funny thing is that in all Papy manuals they recomend linear for > > joysticks and non-linear for wheels, something I have always thought > > to be wrong and all the good ICR2 drivers I know agree. > That [the manual text] is wrong, but I thought that only went out in > the manual for NASCAR2, not "all Papy manuals." My mistake. Sorry Papy and everyone else. Had a huge L/NL mixup in that post. The reverse is what is written in Papy manuals. My point was that I disagree with Papy suggesting linear for wheels. Everyone I know, some of them the best in the biz, use non - linear with both their wheels and joysticks. The thought of using linear steering frightens me greatly :)

> My mistake. Sorry Papy and everyone else. Had a huge L/NL mixup in > that post. The reverse is what is written in Papy manuals. My point was > that I disagree with Papy suggesting linear for wheels. Everyone I know, > some of them the best in the biz, use non - linear with both their > wheels and joysticks. The thought of using linear steering frightens me > greatly :) Byron, why on earth would you want to introduce a dead spot and lack of precision by using non linear, this defeats to the whole purpose of a precision driving wheel such as the TSW? I have never used non linear except for experimenting which I immediately switched :)! Trev

<snip> % What I'm trying to get at is that compromises have to be made in order to % transfer the mechanical motion of wheel / pedals / joystick into digital % inputs to the game engine. None of the currently available control % combinations are exactly like that used in any race car, let alone a % Lotus 49 ;-) None of them offer the correct feedback that *does* vary % with speed - and FF will not be capable of doing so for some time. % So if one particular compromise is deemed acceptable then why not others? % Where should the line be sensibly drawn? If an, admittedly unrealistic, % 'reduce with speed' option allows the *simulation* of the different % torque required to turn the front wheels at different speeds then is this % necessarily so evil? % Just my 2 pence worth. I too am a little confused about how the car handles at speed on a straight with full linear settings. It seems way too sensitive. However, if Papy is modeling everything they claim to be, this is either "accurate" or they need some more fine tuning. I would rather they make it accurate than plug in a "shim" like "reduce with speed". Now having said this, I still think there may be a need for a "reduce with speed" control setting. This is due to the quality (or lack thereof) of game port controllers and controlling devices. I am beginning to wonder if the experiences everyone is having is different based on the speed of their graphics, the precision of their game port, and the precision of their wheel. The readings from a non-calibrating game port vs. a speed adjustable game port can vary in scale greatly. Does Papy's optimized controller driver compensate for the wide scale of readings from different game cards? Does the steering react the same with a cheap game port vs. a Thrustmaster ACM? -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Damn it. In this post of mine I confused linear with non linear just >about everywhere :((((( > Let me try again :) <g> Corrections noted! When this subject has been discussed over on the Sports Sims forum on Compuserve, it seems to be about a 50/50 split amongst the better drivers. Some like non-linear settings with quite large steering locks whilst others prefer linear with low lock. A very odd few like linear settings with *huge* wheel lock - but they're *very* odd <vbg> Well that's why I suggested a 'reduce with speed' option ;-) Although actually I do find it easy enough atm. Don't know what it will be like when running in traffic but the fully linear setting means that it is very esy to correct slight deviations. With non-linear settings it is all too easy to end up see-sawing the wheel from left to right and back again trying to avoid amplifying the original mistake - at least that's what I find. And feelings differ <g> For me, I can't get any real feel with the non-linear setting. I like crisp, responsive controls. Cheers, Richard

On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:19:01 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"

Quoted text (7 lines)

>I am beginning to wonder if the experiences everyone is having is >different based on the speed of their graphics, the precision of their >game port, and the precision of their wheel. The readings from a >non-calibrating game port vs. a speed adjustable game port can vary >in scale greatly. Does Papy's optimized controller driver compensate >for the wide scale of readings from different game cards? Does the >steering react the same with a cheap game port vs. a Thrustmaster ACM?

I haven't experimented as these days I seem to find that whenever I alter something in my machine something else stops working ;-) I'm using a PII 300 with 3dfx and it's very smooth at 600*400 with all details on (not smooth enough for me at 800*600 though). I've got an ACM card and a GP500 wheel that isn't to everyone's liking but I find very accurate around the centre zone (much better than the TSWs I've tried, although I think I may be in the minority on that one <g>). Although I think there probably should be a 'reduce with speed' shim (nice word, btw <g>) I don't have any trouble controlling the car on the straights with the full linear setting. I *may* risk experimenting and disable the ACM / try running at 800*600 or even use the software rendering and see what differences it makes - but no promises ;-) Cheers, richard

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> Could you explain in a few words what the "Ackerman" is? (and don't >> just say "no". :) >The Ackerman angle is the difference in steering lock/yaw angle between >the inner and outer front wheels in a turn. Some Ackerman is built-in to >help reduce understeer, especially on Front wheel drive cars, and for >tight circuits.

Thanks. Let me see if I understand this correctly (and it is not off-topic since GPL probably models all this stuff :) Usually, if you are driving a full circle, the inner and outer front wheels of a car describe concentric circles with different diameters. You can influence this behavior (during the designing process) by changing the angle between the steering knuckle arms. If one defines the inner wheel to describe the "correct" circle, the outer wheel could describe a circle that is too big or too small. If the outer wheel makes a smaller circle, this reduces understeer. Approximately correct, or like me quite often in GPL, i.e. completely off-track? :) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

Mike I dont know what the game port has to do with it because I've never had to use anything but the SB port since I started racing years ago. I would guess the controller would have a greater effect, I know there was a world of diff when I switched from my long dead T1 to my TSW. Trev

% > I am beginning to wonder if the experiences everyone is having is % > different based on the speed of their graphics, the precision of their % > game port, and the precision of their wheel. The readings from a % > non-calibrating game port vs. a speed adjustable game port can vary % > in scale greatly. Does Papy's optimized controller driver compensate % > for the wide scale of readings from different game cards? Does the % > steering react the same with a cheap game port vs. a Thrustmaster ACM? % > % Mike I dont know what the game port has to do with it because I've never % had to use anything but the SB port since I started racing years ago. I % would guess the controller would have a greater effect, I know there was % a world of diff when I switched from my long dead T1 to my TSW. Well, then you should give a quality game port a try. As there was a work of difference when I scrapped my SB port for a Thrustmaster ACM game card. ;-) To be honest the world may have been smaller than your's, but there is an improvement in the control with a game port that can be calibrated to the speed of one's computer. The sampling rate of the port during calibration can be as much as 400%. This can and will make a difference in how a controlling device is read by a program and therefore can and will make a difference in how the program reacts to input from the controlling device. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I'm finding the game a real pleasure to drive, the feel i get from the car is awesome, and the more i drive the GPL demo the more i am able to read from teh car. I've got a P233mmx and run at 800x600 and probably get around 15-20fps which isn't really very much but it's still pretty good. perhaps i should try 640x480 and see if my laptimes improve from the 1:08.0's i can do. And regarding the steering input... i think a gamecard would probably be a good decision for everyone:) At the moment i have a *** oscilation in all my joystick axiis that varies from less than 1% oscillation at 2Hz or so, when the combined total resistance of all the pots in my wheel are at minimum values, up to about a 4-5% oscillation at 10-15hz when the total resistances are at maximum. The oscillations are very visible in any calibration screen, and are all synchronised over the 4 axis on my T2, so I would say it's my Soundblaster gameport being rather crap. Has anyone else out there had this sort of experience before? I'd love to chuck in a gamecard just to see if this all goes away and finally gives me smooth control inputs. but in the meantime i can use it as an excuse for my bad driving :) Grant.

More definitions!!!

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > >No, a steering linkage is essentially a four-bar linkage. I can design > > >a four bar linkage that exhibits non-linear properties. In fact, your > > >road car has some non-linearity to it (unless the Ackerman is exactly > > >zero). > > Could you explain in a few words what the "Ackerman" is? (and don't > > just say "no". :) > The Ackerman angle is the difference in steering lock/yaw angle between > the inner and outer front wheels in a turn. Some Ackerman is built-in to > help reduce understeer, especially on Front wheel drive cars, and for > tight circuits. > Cheers, Matt

Actually there are several common uses for Mr Ackermann's name, here are three of them. Note spelling. I believe that he was a vehicle designer in the 1800's... 1. Steering with 2 kingpins (instead of a single pivot in the middle of an axle like a farm wagon). 2. Arranging the individual wheel steer angles so that both front wheels track a "perfect" geometric turn. Because the outer wheel is on a bigger diameter circle, the steer angle required is less. The result is "toe out" as the wheels are steered away from center. Legend has it that this practice was started to keep from plowing ruts in the gravel of rich owner's driveways. Race cars often vary from this, as they corner with tire slip angles. Car designers have their own ideas about the correct amount of Ackermann correction. 3. The average steer angle (measured either at the front wheels or at the steering wheel -- the measurement should specify) required to negotiate a turn at very low speed, where the tire slip angles are essentially zero. The Ackermann steer angle is the reference angle for a number of handling tests -- the change in steer angle from the Ackermann angle (as a car corners harder) is the formal definition of understeer and oversteer. -- Doug

snip

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > Hi Trevor. My email isn't working so I'm using this! Per your post > above, I am also using the SB port and its worked fine with my TSW untill > I started driving 3D games. I sent F1RS back for a refund, I sent my TSW > back to be repaired, and now with the gpl demo the same problem > over again: the car just veer's off the road as if the pots were bad. > I've tried every latest driver etc. and it still happens!! please try to > to help if you can. This is driving me crazy! The games that work fine > are TOCA, and GP2. The games that don't are F1RS, Ultimate Race Pro, and > the GPL demo...in these games the symptom is always the same- the car > just steers right off the track in one or two places (usually the same > spots) every lap. By the way I have a whole bag full of RadioShack linear > taper pots, but I don't think the pots are the answer. Any suggestions? > Anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...

How in the world should some games work and some not, if the pots are kaputt (defective)? Same for the joystick drivers, if they work okay in one game, it should work in any game. Of course, the game could be the culprit, but the games you have problems with, work like a charm on anybody elses system... l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> And feelings differ <g> For me, I can't get any real feel with the > non-linear setting. I like crisp, responsive controls. Do you race Richard? I would imagine that to someone who races, the non linear would feel and look silly because of the massive side to side you mention. Perhaps this partially explains the 50/50 split. I would imagine also that it would look odd ie to turn the wheel so much yet get little response. I suppose in the end it's a case of the non linear has the feel and the linear has the look.

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > My mistake. Sorry Papy and everyone else. Had a huge L/NL mixup in > > that post. The reverse is what is written in Papy manuals. My point was > > that I disagree with Papy suggesting linear for wheels. Everyone I know, > > some of them the best in the biz, use non - linear with both their > > wheels and joysticks. The thought of using linear steering frightens me > > greatly :) > Byron, why on earth would you want to introduce a dead spot and lack of > precision by using non linear, this defeats to the whole purpose of a > precision driving wheel such as the TSW? > I have never used non linear except for experimenting which I > immediately switched :)!

Well, my wheel (Mad Catz) is not near the quality/price of a TSW and since I have never tried a TSW I cannot compare. But I would assume that unless the TSW has some type of structure that increases the torque needed to turn the wheel the more it's turned, that it would be the same as my wheel! I am sure that I could not drive as smoothly with linear as I can with NL. I think this is mainly a matter of what people have used from the beginnings of their sim racing days with a wheel and thus what they are accustomed/tuned to. Also, you mention "dead spot". I find that there is no dead spot or null zone whatsoever. Just a very precise way to control the car! I see and sense direction changes with very small movements of the wheel. This is very handy on ovals and helps me hit those apexs lap after lap on any track. How you think linear gives you MORE precision compared to NL I just don't know. I think you are completely wrong! NL is obviously more precise because you obviously get smoother control as opposed to the relative twitchyness of linear that is causing obvious problems for many in the GPL demo. The best analogy I can come up with is that with Linear it is like you are trying to hit a 1 foot diameter bullseye with a bow and arrow and with NL the bullseye has a diameter of 2 feet! It sounds to me as though when you have tried NL you have not increased wheel lock which would definantly give you the impression that nothing was occuring just off centre.

> 1. Steering with 2 kingpins (instead of a single pivot in the middle > of an > axle like a farm wagon). Wasn't there an article on this in Racecar Engineering or Race Tech a few years ago, when an engineer used this single pivot point steering a stiff spaceframe front axle? He was claiming this would be very beneficial, but I never managed to grasp the logic in such a steering system?:)) Matt -- Matthew Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/

Hi Trevor. My email isn't working so I'm using this! Per your post Do other sims such as N2, ICR2 and so on work OK when run in DOS mode? Can you calibrate the TSW normally in the W95 setup and cal applet? If you can run OK when in DOS then the prob could be in W95 itself. Which version do you you have? Which version of Direct X? Have you tried using the Pro Panel applet from TMs website? What hardware are you running? Speed etc? I would guess that you may be running a gamecard? Give me as many details as you can and maybe I can come up with something, OK? Trev

Quoted text (13 lines)

>> > The funny thing is that in all Papy manuals they recomend linear for >> > joysticks and non-linear for wheels, something I have always thought >> > to be wrong and all the good ICR2 drivers I know agree. >> That [the manual text] is wrong, but I thought that only went out in >> the manual for NASCAR2, not "all Papy manuals." > My mistake. Sorry Papy and everyone else. Had a huge L/NL mixup in >that post. The reverse is what is written in Papy manuals. My point was >that I disagree with Papy suggesting linear for wheels. Everyone I know, >some of them the best in the biz, use non - linear with both their >wheels and joysticks. The thought of using linear steering frightens me >greatly :)

Hmmm Have to disagree with you on this one Byron. I have always used Linear with my wheel in ICR2, In CPR I use 30 setting which is towards linear and I have GPL set only a little towards the linear side from center as it does seem a little to sensitive at full Linear. I havent tried GPL set to Non-Linear yet as I was under the impression that a steering shaft turning a gear turns the gear the same for the first inch of travel as it does for the last inch of travel. I will give Non Linear a try in GPL to see its response as I need to find .9 sec to get to the 1:06 mark..hmmm could I have had my steering set wrong the whole time? George Sandman Zone Name The_Sandman1 Stealth Racing #1 1997 WIERS Constructors Team Championship 1997 CICC PPG Champion 1996 CICC PPG Champion 1996 NWSICT PPG Champion 1996 FRL PPG Champion

Quoted text (28 lines)

> > > I am beginning to wonder if the experiences everyone is having is > > > different based on the speed of their graphics, the precision of their > > > game port, and the precision of their wheel. The readings from a > > > non-calibrating game port vs. a speed adjustable game port can vary > > > in scale greatly. Does Papy's optimized controller driver compensate > > > for the wide scale of readings from different game cards? Does the > > > steering react the same with a cheap game port vs. a Thrustmaster ACM? > > Mike I dont know what the game port has to do with it because I've never > > had to use anything but the SB port since I started racing years ago. I > > would guess the controller would have a greater effect, I know there was > > a world of diff when I switched from my long dead T1 to my TSW. > > Trev > > Hi Trevor. My email isn't working so I'm using this! Per your post > above, I am also using the SB port and its worked fine with my TSW untill > I started driving 3D games. I sent F1RS back for a refund, I sent my TSW > back to be repaired, and now with the gpl demo the same problem > over again: the car just veer's off the road as if the pots were bad. > I've tried every latest driver etc. and it still happens!! please try to > to help if you can. This is driving me crazy! The games that work fine > are TOCA, and GP2. The games that don't are F1RS, Ultimate Race Pro, and > the GPL demo...in these games the symptom is always the same- the car > just steers right off the track in one or two places (usually the same > spots) every lap. By the way I have a whole bag full of RadioShack linear > taper pots, but I don't think the pots are the answer. Any suggestions? > Anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...

All I can say is that I'm glad I do things THE RIGHT WAY, hehehehehehehe. Move that slider all the way to the other side fellas! I really do insist that non linear steering is more realistic till we get solid FF anyway :)

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Well that's why I suggested a 'reduce with speed' option ;-) Although > actually I do find it easy enough atm. Don't know what it will be like > when running in traffic but the fully linear setting means that it is > very esy to correct slight deviations. With non-linear settings it is all > too easy to end up see-sawing the wheel from left to right and back again > trying to avoid amplifying the original mistake - at least that's what I > find.

I get the opposite effect. Using linear steering, I can't make small adjustments at all. Every input is over-kill and I end up constantly over-correcting. The non-linear steering mode doesn't introduce a "dead zone" at all. It just makes small steering inputs easier to do. One thing to consider is the total rotational angle of the input device you use. I use the TM GP1 right now, and it only turns about 180 degrees lock-to-lock. Nascar Pro wheels have a 280 degree lock-to-lock movement. That extra 100 degrees of rotation will make linear steering a lot less sensitive. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

<snip> % The non-linear steering mode doesn't introduce a "dead zone" at all. It % just makes small steering inputs easier to do. % One thing to consider is the total rotational angle of the input % device you use. I use the TM GP1 right now, and it only turns about % 180 degrees lock-to-lock. Nascar Pro wheels have a 280 degree % lock-to-lock movement. That extra 100 degrees of rotation will make % linear steering a lot less sensitive. Good point. It's probably too late for Papy to allow us to fine tune the steering box on the cars, but it might be doable with some sorta slider adjustment that reduces the sensitivity but still provides a linear reaction to a linear movement. I also think that once you get the chance to modify the carsetup (camber, steering lock, and anti-sway bars), you will find that you can use your GP1 with some degree of linear setting in your steering. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Hi Trevor. My email isn't working so I'm using this! Per your post % above, I am also using the SB port and its worked fine with my TSW untill % I started driving 3D games. I sent F1RS back for a refund, I sent my TSW % back to be repaired, and now with the gpl demo the same problem % over again: the car just veer's off the road as if the pots were bad. % I've tried every latest driver etc. and it still happens!! please try to % to help if you can. This is driving me crazy! The games that work fine % are TOCA, and GP2. The games that don't are F1RS, Ultimate Race Pro, and % the GPL demo...in these games the symptom is always the same- the car % just steers right off the track in one or two places (usually the same % spots) every lap. By the way I have a whole bag full of RadioShack linear % taper pots, but I don't think the pots are the answer. Any suggestions? % Anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone...anyone... Two things I would try: 1) Go to Control Panel -> Game Controllers -> Advanced and try playing with the Poll with interrupts enabled box. If it's checked trying unchecking it, or visa versa. 2) Try using Thrustmaster's ProPanel applet to setup your wheel in Win95. It will provide a better and smoother calibration. ftp://208.129.210.78/pub/library/calibration/propanelv11.exe Oh, and one more thing.... 3) You might want to try out Thrustmaster's ACM game card. Honest, it might help out alot. Try to pick one up where you will be allowed to return it if you don't think that it improves your control. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

snip

Quoted text (8 lines)

> I'm kind of suprised you bothered to make a reply to my problem > 18er, I mean whats your point? I'm not the only one who has had problems > with F1RS ...or the GPL demo either, for that matter. I hate to think > that you 'window shop' messages put up in ras just to be able to > make replies out of boredom or whatever. If you don't have any usefull > information then why are you butting-in? I addressed my question to the > person that makes TSW's! So back-off dude, while I try and fix my shit. > Mark.

You didn't get it, huh? I was trying to tell you, that there is NO WAY your pots are defective, if they work in two games, AND that the mentioned games work GREAT for 99% of the people using wheels. Somebody with a clue would see, that this is helpfull, because it removes some error sources (wheel, game)... now you COULD check how you calibrate your wheel, but I better leave you alone fixing your shit. l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

[snip] Mark, I'm assuming you have a 3dfx card. You might like to try adding these commands to the end of your autoexec.bat SET SST_FASTMEM=0 SET SST_FASTPCIRD=0 SET SST_PCIRD=0 SET SST_SLOWPCIWR=1 I have a suspicion that PCI bursting is upsetting the ISA bus and affecting the joystick port timings. What caught my attention was that it looked like the problem was with Glide games.. Toca is D3D. The place on the track might be PCI transaction intensive. Thats all my Bug-o-Matic (tm) crystal ball could come up with. Its usually pretty good so I hope it helps. Regards, David

You know, this discussion, and the GPL demo remind me of something that Niki Lauda said years ago. Basically that one's success as a racing driver was based on the sensitivity of one's backside. In other words, you needed to have a FEEL for the car with the *whole* of your body in order to be able to drive it fast, set it up properly in testing and practice, so on and so forth . Now GPL is the most technically advanced and impressive sim out there. No doubt about that. My point would be that at present it is TOO advanced and ahead of it's time because the input/feedback devices that we use are far too primitive to do justice to the extremely realistic physics model that Papy have produced. I drive a rear-engined road car, and of course with that, oversteer is always a possibility. One soon learns however to note the warning signs, not just from the wheel, although of course that is vital, but from the overall aspect and angle of the car and take action accordingly. With GPL clearly the power/weight ratio is totally different and of course it is mid-engined but even with my GP1 wheel it is not possible to have the same feedback as on a road car. I have been following motor sport for 20 years and have driven racing sims since Indy 500 on the Amiga 500 and with this one I am still WAY off of the pace (although i am never terribly fast). I think the solution is for Papy to ship the final version with a full range of configuration options for handling, and difficulty. Otherwise I can see the sim unfairly and unjustly being hammered by magazine game reviewers who are not specialist sim racers (as indeed are the majority of the game-buying public). This would be a tragedy. Having said all of this I still love it and will be the first to buy the full version come July - and if no-one produces a force feedback cushion to put under my backside, i may just have to invent one !!!<g> Ian

Michael, I never use "reduce with speed" settings in games that have them. I find it more predictable that way, especially on variable radius turns. I have a TSW into a TM ACM card and set GPL at about 80% linear. 100% linear makes straight line driving very difficult, resulting in spins on braking. 66% makes my steering input *exactly* match the on-screen arms. This is on a P133/3Dfx. I'll be running a PII-333 within a week I hope, and I'll be able to tell you if any of my settings have to change. I guess I'll have to recalibrate the ACM. -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

> Do you race Richard? I would imagine that to someone who races, the >non linear would feel and look silly because of the massive side to side >you mention. Perhaps this partially explains the 50/50 split. I would >imagine also that it would look odd ie to turn the wheel so much yet get >little response. No I don't race. I'm a coward at heart and would never be brave enough to do so IRL <g> I would be interested in hearing the opinions of those who have done real racing through. Except for me it also has the feel <g> Seriously, with the non-linear setting I just can't gauge the correct amount to turn the wheel and when I need to make a small correction my hands are simply not fast enough to turn the wheel the required amount. Cheers, Richard

You do get used to it, but it takes a pretty subtle driving style <g> The main advantage I've found in GPL is that it seems to be a lot easier to turn consistently into the corners - especially the last one which is where I was having the most trouble. I even seem to be able to brake into the corners a little whilst making the minutest of corrections. I don't know if this is as a result of increasing the linearity or simply coincidental though. Technically, yes. But to me it feels like a dead zone as I'm not getting the responsiveness I want. Very true. My GP500 has 270 degrees of lock, although I never like crossing my hands so I rarely use more than 180 of it in normal driving. A fully linear setting with a lower lock-to-lock movement is automatically more sensitive. Cheers, Richard

Quoted text (31 lines)

> > Do you race Richard? I would imagine that to someone who races, > the > >non linear would feel and look silly because of the massive side to > side > >you mention. Perhaps this partially explains the 50/50 split. I would > >imagine also that it would look odd ie to turn the wheel so much yet > get > >little response. > No I don't race. I'm a coward at heart and would never be brave enough > to > do so IRL <g> > I would be interested in hearing the opinions of those who have done > real > racing through. > >I suppose in the end it's a case of the non linear has the feel and > the > >linear has the look. > Except for me it also has the feel <g> Seriously, with the non-linear > setting I just can't gauge the correct amount to turn the wheel and > when > I need to make a small correction my hands are simply not fast enough > to > turn the wheel the required amount. > Cheers, > Richard

I race in real life, and I always set my sim steering settings to full sensitive, well almost. In Gp2 I have it reduced somewhat. In GPL i set it to full linear, and I think it is pretty good. In a real racer, you do not have "long" movements, you seldom turn more than 90-100 deg, unless you are in a Stock Car or Rally car. I have spent some hours on GPL now, and at first, I thought it impossible to trail brake, but you can actually. The thing is to be smooth, you need to get on the gas gently, but early. I am into the 07s, and I found the last sec on braking late, letting the tail step out a *tad*, and getting on the gas, stabilizing the car, not accelerating, but giving it a burst of forward momentum to find some rear traction again. Especially important in the loop and the last turn. Since I started using these techniques, my spins are less frequent. I have done 25 laps in the 08s straight without spinning. It just takes some serious concentration...:)) How the h*** I am supposed to get into the 06s I don't know....I am truly impressed by those who can!! Best, Matt -- Matthew Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars [link lost in import: /~kareknut/]

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > 1. Steering with 2 kingpins (instead of a single pivot in the middle > > of an axle like a farm wagon). > Wasn't there an article on this in Racecar Engineering or Race Tech a > few years ago, when an engineer used this single pivot point steering a > stiff spaceframe front axle? He was claiming this would be very > beneficial, but I never managed to grasp the logic in such a steering > system?:))

Didn't see that one, sounds more like a mad scientist <grin>. Can you imagine the steering torque that would happen when one front wheel dropped into a pothole at speed?!! If you held on to the steering wheel it might twist your arms off! -- Doug

Hi Mark: I'm sorry to hear of your problems. I purchased F1RS in December, but it wasn't until mid January before I purchased a new Motherboard, with a new BIOS, that supported my Pure 3D. I'm convinced that the joystick port is the one of the last of the REALLY BAD IDEAS the PC pioneers came up with, that survives to this day. PCME mentioned a new joystick card that is a real analog to digital unit. The turds won't answer my e-mail, so this is what I think it does: In Windows sims, it goes into digital mode, and it's windows drivers read the digital values of the joysticks from ports on the card. I don't have much technical data. In DOS, it serves as a standard analog game port. That means you're using a driver that disables the PC's interrupts, and drops into a tight loop, and counts the loops, until a capacitor discharges, for each axis of each control. Then it turns on your interrupts and returns the loop counts to your simulator. My sims run fine with my TM/ACM card. But if I was having joystick problems that kept me from my favorite hobby, I would check one of these. They aren't $20 to $30 items, I think it's about $100. I think this is a new company. They are probably eager to get their product out. You should be able to get them to give you a refund if you aren't satisfied And I'm DYING to know how they work. So check out PCME, and let us know if you get one. Larry

<SnipSnipSnip> Ok, the website was www.combatsim.com, not PCME. The company is PDPI, the product is the L4 Digital PC Game Card. Their number is (805) 581-7023. Anyway, I hope you find a fix to your problem. Larry