GPL - Steering problems -- My point of view

Please people, read this carefully if you want to help. First let me explain what my real problem is: When I set my steering wheel to fully linear, I'm having troubles keeping the car on a straight line when I'm at full speed. I really like the responsiveness of the steering when I'm in curves, so I wish to keep my settings to fully linear on those occasions. Unfortunately this is not possible because of the behavior on straights, cause when you're braking at the end of a straight you want your car to be as stable as possible or else you'll find yourself upside down in no time. I believe most people understand my problem at this point. So to all people that want me to move the "linear/non-linear" either way I would like to say this: There is nothing wrong with linear steering. I like linear steering. I've tried many other positions and linear fits me the best. What I'm saying is speed should affect the ease with wich you're steering the car. The faster you go, the heavier the steering wheel becomes. I really don't think that's unrealistic. Now to the people who say "You may have low FPS" I say no. My system performs very well with GPL, I'd estimate my frame rate to be about 25-30 FPS, reminds me of rendition ICR2. Anyway the problem remains even if I remove every graphic detail, so there's not point. To those who argue that the cars really behave that way I'd like to explain how I don't think it does. Have you ever noticed, when you're at speed on a highway, that the car shows resistance when you try to steer from one side to the other (you can feel it even more if you don't have power-steering)? The inertia of the car will create forces that fight any change in its speed vector. So if you'd apply a small correction on the wheel the car wouldn't be as responsive as when you're running say 30 mph, because of the relationship between inertia and speed. Can you feel this in GPL? I'd say we can feel it but to a much lesser extent. When you're in a real car you can visualize it by the way the car behaves and you can also feel the Gs while changing direction. I don't think the guys at Papy missed completely on that issue. Now some of you will argue that Papy models it perfectly, but I don't think that's the case, the effect seems to faint IMHO. At full speed on straights any small correction to the steering wheel causes a change in direction that has too much magnitude in my opinion. Even if they have done it right don't you agree that the physical part would still be missing? The program HAS to compensate for that. That's of course if you agree that a simulation shouldn't only try to recreate visual effects. For those who are dying to tell me that such an option would make the game arcadish, well let me put it simply: I don't really care, and I'm sure Sierra doesn't either. What's important is that as many people as possible have the opportunity to enjoy the game. Maybe to some "elite" here realism might be the only valid goal. Maybe you're convinced that I just can't drive a realistic sim and that I should go back to the "arcadish" GP2. But don't forget we're not all as well equipped as you are. Of course, if I had more money I'd buy a TSW today, but it's simply not the case. I need to be able to play with what I have at hand, and that's a TM GP1 wich is not that bad anyway. And for what it's worth, I think steering really becomes harder as speed increases so no loss on the realism of the game. Bottomline: If you can help me with my problem then please do so, but stop telling me to play with the linearity slider or to cut on graphic details and don't bother telling me that if I can't drive the sim the way it is it's all because I'm a bad driver cause this sim is the best thing since sliced bread. This doesn't help me a bit and it also bothers many other people. Sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't the purpose of this post. A. Renault

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> Please people, read this carefully if you want to help. > First let me explain what my real problem is: > When I set my steering wheel to fully linear, I'm having troubles > keeping the car on a straight line when I'm at full speed. I really > like the responsiveness of the steering when I'm in curves, so I wish > to keep my settings to fully linear on those occasions. Unfortunately > this is not possible because of the behavior on straights, cause when > you're braking at the end of a straight you want your car to be as > stable as possible or else you'll find yourself upside down in no > time. I believe most people understand my problem at this point. > So to all people that want me to move the "linear/non-linear" either > way I would like to say this: There is nothing wrong with linear > steering. I like linear steering. I've tried many other positions > and linear fits me the best. What I'm saying is speed should affect > the ease with wich you're steering the car. The faster you go, the > heavier the steering wheel becomes. I really don't think that's > unrealistic. > Now to the people who say "You may have low FPS" I say no. My system > performs very well with GPL, I'd estimate my frame rate to be about > 25-30 FPS, reminds me of rendition ICR2. Anyway the problem remains > even if I remove every graphic detail, so there's not point. > To those who argue that the cars really behave that way I'd like to > explain how I don't think it does. Have you ever noticed, when you're > at speed on a highway, that the car shows resistance when you try to > steer from one side to the other (you can feel it even more if you > don't have power-steering)? The inertia of the car will create forces > that fight any change in its speed vector. So if you'd apply a small > correction on the wheel the car wouldn't be as responsive as when > you're running say 30 mph, because of the relationship between inertia > and speed. Can you feel this in GPL? I'd say we can feel it but to a > much lesser extent. When you're in a real car you can visualize it by > the way the car behaves and you can also feel the Gs while changing > direction. I don't think the guys at Papy missed completely on that > issue. Now some of you will argue that Papy models it perfectly, but > I don't think that's the case, the effect seems to faint IMHO. At > full speed on straights any small correction to the steering wheel > causes a change in direction that has too much magnitude in my > opinion. Even if they have done it right don't you agree that the > physical part would still be missing? The program HAS to compensate > for that. That's of course if you agree that a simulation shouldn't > only try to recreate visual effects. > For those who are dying to tell me that such an option would make the > game arcadish, well let me put it simply: I don't really care, and > I'm sure Sierra doesn't either. What's important is that as many > people as possible have the opportunity to enjoy the game. Maybe to > some "elite" here realism might be the only valid goal. Maybe you're > convinced that I just can't drive a realistic sim and that I should go > back to the "arcadish" GP2. But don't forget we're not all as well > equipped as you are. Of course, if I had more money I'd buy a TSW > today, but it's simply not the case. I need to be able to play with > what I have at hand, and that's a TM GP1 wich is not that bad anyway. > And for what it's worth, I think steering really becomes harder as > speed increases so no loss on the realism of the game. > Bottomline: If you can help me with my problem then please do so, but > stop telling me to play with the linearity slider or to cut on graphic > details and don't bother telling me that if I can't drive the sim the > way it is it's all because I'm a bad driver cause this sim is the best > thing since sliced bread. This doesn't help me a bit and it also > bothers many other people. > Sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't the purpose of this post. > A. Renault

Hi Antoine Here`s a couple of suggestions The GP1 wheels only have some 180 degrees of rotation if I`m not mistaken, this can be increased to about 270 degrees by opening the case and removing some stops giving you the same as the T2`s and Pro`s, more or less. I have not done this myself, but someone else posted here that he done this so I guess it can be done The difference between 180 and 270 degrees may not sound a lot but it is, I don`t know if there are many Citroen cars (the bigger ones that is) where you live, but they`re famous for only having 2-2 1/2 turn lock to lock in their roadcars, as opposed to 3 1/2-4 1/4 in most (European) cars, now try to drive that in a straight line (with a highpowered power steering to boot) and you will know what I mean :-), not impossible though, just takes a while to get used to it Get a speed adjustable gamecard, getting the joystick input values lower gives for a more accurat interpretation from the game when you move your wheel, I think it was Michael C. or Jim Sokoloff who explained this a while back, sounds strange at first, but it makes sense after a good explanation. Adjust the slider a "little" to the right (I know what you said, but still), having only 180 degree of wheel motion is not a lot, even teh big boys in the real thing has more (doesn`t use it much though) and you don`t even get physical feedback, only visual and audio, making it even harder. Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

>The GP1 wheels only have some 180 degrees of rotation if I`m not >mistaken, this can be increased to about 270 degrees by opening the case >and removing some stops giving you the same as the T2`s and Pro`s, more >or less. I have not done this myself, but someone else posted here that >he done this so I guess it can be done Thanks for your ideas. I was aware that I could increase to 270, but there's one problem though... What about the paddles? It becomes really hard for me to control acceleration and braking when I'm over the 180 limit... And you know how this damn car behaves while it's turning, you've gotta be gentle with the accelerator!!! Anyway, this idea was worth being said, maybe it can help people who use pedals instead of the paddles. About the ACM game card, I thought of that but I'm not rich enough at this time. Anyway I really think that there are other solutions, or else Papy will most certainly have to bundle the game with a gamecard! I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of steering devices that are even more crappy than my GP1. About that linearity slider well... I've tried so much different positions (to no avail) that I don't think this alone would be of any help. Thanks for your time, I appreciate it! A. Renault

> Thanks for your ideas. I was aware that I could increase to 270, but > there's one problem though... What about the paddles? It becomes > really hard for me to control acceleration and braking when I'm over > the 180 limit... And you know how this damn car behaves while it's > turning, you've gotta be gentle with the accelerator!!! This is very true, however having more lock doesn`t meen you have to use it, I rearly use full lock, but the extra movement of the wheel should make it less twitchy in the center The GP1 is not a crappy wheel, I used one myself for over a year (with CH pedals though) and then passed it on to my brother who really likes it, I liked the wheel itself more than the T2 wheels actually As for a gamecard or not, if you can lower the speed of your ISA bus in the BIOS/setup of your machine, maybe that will work, never done it but it should do much the same, I`m sure there are some techwiz guys here who knows the answer to this :-) I aim to please :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

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> >The GP1 wheels only have some 180 degrees of rotation if I`m not > >mistaken, this can be increased to about 270 degrees by opening the case > >and removing some stops giving you the same as the T2`s and Pro`s, more > >or less. I have not done this myself, but someone else posted here that > >he done this so I guess it can be done > Thanks for your ideas. I was aware that I could increase to 270, but > there's one problem though... What about the paddles? It becomes > really hard for me to control acceleration and braking when I'm over > the 180 limit... And you know how this damn car behaves while it's > turning, you've gotta be gentle with the accelerator!!!

I'm quite sure, part of your problem could be just that: you're using your hands for the wheel, gas and brake. I have a TM GP1 too and used the pedals only once for gas and brake. I just couldn't steer correctly at the same time. Do yourself a favour and spend the 50 bucks for some CH Pedals. ...and if we're lucky, the wheel pedals can be used for gear shifting in the final GPL product... ;^) l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:54:28 +0200, Ronald Stoehr >I'm quite sure, part of your problem could be just that: you're using >your hands for the wheel, gas and brake. I have a TM GP1 too and used >the pedals only once for gas and brake. I just couldn't steer correctly >at the same time. Do yourself a favour and spend the 50 bucks for some >CH Pedals. Then how come I can drive accurately in other sims? I have good hand coordination (I play guitar) and it never bothered me before... Strange... <weird exit music> The outer limits - Please stand by... A. Renault

David Kaemmer may care though ;-) Why? OK, I'm deliberately going to be 'elitist' here, but there are now plenty of sims that cater for the less hard core simmer. Why should an attempt to produce a very realistic sim be watered down to make it more suitable for the masses? Keeping it highly realistic will mean it is less profitable but is that really a *bad* thing? Diversity is allowed to exist in most marketplaces, but apparently in the 'game' (sic) world, if a product doesn't cater for the lowest common denominator then it is somehow 'wrong'. That said, I'm not particularly bothered about introducing extra configurability into the control options. 'Reduce with speed' is an excellent compromise to simulate how steering changes with speed IRL. If people really want null zones then fine. At the end of the day some people will have no trouble driving a realistic sim and some will always do so - whatever control system they use. As an example, look at Mike Laskey who is one of the quickest sim drivers I know of - and he only ever uses a joystick... Just because you are having problems doesn't mean that you are a 'bad driver' but it *may* mean that you are doing something fundamentally wrong without realising it. The previous generation of sims can inadvertently teach some bad driving habits and some of them can be hard to unlearn. If you would like to send me a replay of one or two of your typical laps then I would be happy to take a look at it and see if I can spot anything obvious. Here's a tip for driving on the straights with linear settings. Try to avoid looking at the track immediately ahead of the car - focus on a point on the horizon or better still your next braking point. If I look at the track near the car and think about trying to keep the car straight then I wobble all over the place as I conciously try and correct the car. But if I focus far away (and better yet, forget about the car all together!) it is easy to keep in a straight line. It just happens <g> Also, when braking for corners do as little as possible that will upset the balance of the car. Ease off the throttle as smoothly as possible and only when fully off the throttle, apply the brakes as smoothly as possible. To start with this will take time, so start the braking process earlier. Only speed up the process when you are 100% confident. Cheers, Richard

I have two colleagues who are using the T/master Grand Prix wheel with the PADDLES (not "pedals") and they both have co-ordination problems with GPL. On the other hand, I have a T1 and a friend has a T2, WITH CONVENTIONAL GEARSTICK AND PEDAL ARRANGEMENT. Neither of us have any hassles at all with the steering setup/adjustment in the GPL demo. As a matter of interest........what steering/pedal system are the Papyrus team using? I'll bet my left testicle that they are not using wheel-mounted paddles for acceleration/braking. -- Regards, Bruce. GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Your opinion is noted. Although we don't agree, your idea makes sense. I guess I could set the steering to non-linear (or somewhere in between) and get used to it. The only problem is I want to set the damn thing to fully linear, wich is the only setting that feels really right. But when racing at full speed on straights I have a hard time controlling the car. My point is that I'm absolutely sure that a racecar is not that hard to keep on a straight line in real life. I don't race (except karts!) but one of my friends raced in CASCAR (canadian equivalent to NASCAR) and he agrees that the cars in papy's sims are too twitchy on straights. I may be wrong but I believe him. A. Renault

>David Kaemmer may care though ;-) Yeah but David Kamer also cares about his job! ;o) Ok, I'll put it otherwise. Some people say that introducing a "reduce with speed" slider will make the sim unrealistic. I don't agree. I don't really see how this can be called a driving-help since I believe a car really becomes harder to steer when you're at full speed. So that's why I don't really care if poeple claim it will make the sim unrealistic. I will only make it more enjoyable for a wider range of consumers. Well that's only if you want your company to be there when the next generation product gets out. I'm not for a null zone (although I don't care if there is one, I'll simply turn it off). I'm glad to see that you can live with a "reduce with speed" option included in the game. Some people claim they can't, and I still can't figure out why. Agreed. Just give me you e-mail and I'll send it to you. Heck, I'll use any advice I can get! These cars really give a guy a wild ride! I already knew that but thanks anyway. I think my problem resides more in the fact that I drive a car each day and it never behaves the way Papy's cars do. I usually have less acute responses at high speed than I do at low speeds. And before anyone asks, of course my car doesn't have power steering... Ok, a Honda Civic DX doesn't qualify as a racecar, but I wonder how much difference there is between that and an old 67 Lotus GP car... No aerodynamics, overpowered rear-engine... Just kidding... Ok, I know I can't steer much while under heavy braking, but my problem is that in order to keep your wheels straight while braking your car must not point to any side of the road, i.e. you have to be where you want to be and go where you want to go before you start braking. That's what I haven't been unable to do consistently. Thanks a lot for answerring my post! A. Renault

Enough with that left testicule ***! I'll bet my left nut some people have no left nut left to bet! (Uuuh, that sounds awkward! And painful! Ouuuuh...) A. Renault

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> I'm quite sure, part of your problem could be just that: you're using > your hands for the wheel, gas and brake. I have a TM GP1 too and used > the pedals only once for gas and brake. I just couldn't steer correctly > at the same time. Do yourself a favour and spend the 50 bucks for some > CH Pedals. > ...and if we're lucky, the wheel pedals can be used for gear shifting in > the final GPL product... ;^)

Interesting stuff all this. I suspect the paddles for brake/acc and the 180 deg lock have a lot to do with this. I have also found it interesting that so many people use linear steering or have the slider toward the left. In GP2 I always had the sensitive zone set to full (full non linear?) and reduce with speed set to full. This seems to be the same as Papy sims with non linear selected. I have never had problems. F1RS on the other hand seems very different to me in the steering dept. And I think that this is the whole issue ie what people are accustomed too. My advise to Antoine is to set the lin slider in the middle somewhere and just get used to it. The more you move it around the longer it will take you to get comfortable with it and the more confused and frustrated you will be. All I can say is set it to the best position for you now and then leave it alone unless it becomes obvious at a later time that it would be better set somewhere else. As for the reduce with speed stuff, can you imagine the extra confusion by introducing another slider! To be honest I wish Papy had stayed with just Linear or Non Linear. Maybe just one other setting in between. GPL, like all Papy sims, has reduce with speed built into it. You simply have the slider to much to the left for your wheel. My ultimate advise is to set the slider as far to the right as need be to make the car easy to control on the straights and then leave it alone and get used to it!

>>David Kaemmer may care though ;-) >Yeah but David Kamer also cares about his job! ;o) Aaaaargh!!! I mean... Kaemmer!!! I knew it was Kaemmer, but I wrote Kamer instead... Worst of all there it was, two lines before, correctly spelled! Was I on ***? ***? McDonalds? TV? Someone smack me on the head with a telephone pole! A. Renault

Great advice. Sooner or later you have to stop fiddling and start driving! Andrew McP

What sort of coordination problems are they having? I'm having a ball with my GP1, only thing is I have to run GPL in software mode, which takes away quite a bit of the fun. But its the lack of smooth graphics holding my times back, not my wheel! -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - - V8Supercars - CART -

Antoine Renault wrote : >>>David Kaemmer may care though ;-) >>Yeah but David Kamer also cares about his job! ;o) >Aaaaargh!!! I mean... Kaemmer!!! I knew it was Kaemmer, but I wrote >Kamer instead... Au moins (errr At least), You didn't wrote Kramer ! <insert Seinfeld music> Fran?ois Mnard Official NROS lapper Note that this is a non-official .sig file 'cause I am reworking on it.

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> >My advise to Antoine is to set the lin slider in the > >middle somewhere and just get used to it. The more you move it around > >the longer it will take you to get comfortable with it and the more > >confused and frustrated you will be. All I can say is set it to the best > >position for you now and then leave it alone unless it becomes obvious > >at a later time that it would be better set somewhere else. > Your opinion is noted. Although we don't agree, your idea makes > sense. I guess I could set the steering to non-linear (or somewhere > in between) and get used to it. The only problem is I want to set the > damn thing to fully linear, wich is the only setting that feels really > right. But when racing at full speed on straights I have a hard time > controlling the car. My point is that I'm absolutely sure that a > racecar is not that hard to keep on a straight line in real life. I > don't race (except karts!) but one of my friends raced in CASCAR > (canadian equivalent to NASCAR) and he agrees that the cars in papy's > sims are too twitchy on straights. I may be wrong but I believe him. > A. Renault

As has been mentioned by others, it is a matter of how good the wheel is as to whether it will allow you to run in linear mode. Running in NL with all Papy sims I have NEVER had any problems at all - particularly in a straight line. Also, as I have mentioned before, body roll and weight transfer are a significant part of Papy sims and it takes a little anticipation of the weight transfer, when exiting corners, to keep the car dead straight. Once again, it's a matter of what you are accustomed to. GP2 and F1RS seem to have little or no body roll modelling at all.

> >Diversity is allowed to exist in most marketplaces, but apparently in the > >'game' (sic) world, if a product doesn't cater for the lowest common > >denominator then it is somehow 'wrong'. > Well that's only if you want your company to be there when the next > generation product gets out. Think about this. Racing sims have been around for a while now and MANY people have highly developed skills. Unskilled drivers can aquire skill and get up to standard but skilled drivers would not bother with a sim that offers little and less challenge. A skilled driver cannot de evolve to enjoy a sim that is relatively arcade! So the standard/realism MUST continue to increase or sales will decrease for sure and a whole bunch of sim racers would wait till a good sim arrived and go and play with flight sims, etc in the meantime. Antoine, are you trying to say that there is NO reduce with speed built into GPL? I assure you there is! Maybe not enough for your liking but it is there.

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>>What's important is that as many >>people as possible have the opportunity to enjoy the game. >Why? OK, I'm deliberately going to be 'elitist' here, but there are now >plenty of sims that cater for the less hard core simmer. Why should an >attempt to produce a very realistic sim be watered down to make it more >suitable for the masses? Keeping it highly realistic will mean it is less >profitable but is that really a *bad* thing?

Since you are asking - yes, it is a bad thing. ;) Any company that's in an given business for purely altruistic motives will vanish sooner or later. Papyrus is a subsidiary of Sierra (which is in turn a subsidiary of some larger entity). Imagine what would happen if GPL comes out as a no-help *** sim and sells only moderately. Some "decider" at Sierra who's maybe not as dedicated to sims as the Papy folks, or you or I, will analyze why the program failed to make big bucks. He will come to the conclusion that GPL is just too damn hard to drive, and that that's the reasons for so little sales. Next thing you know, Papy will be "advised" to code N3 and CART2 as slot car simulators with pretty graphics and not much else. ;) Not what we want, right? I don't think, however, that GPL needs to be "watered down" to suit "the masses". The nice thing about help *options* is that you can turn them off - the sim car you're driving won't feature opposite lock help or auto braking, the car for the casual gamer will. And everybody will be happy. (BTW, I don't see "reduce with speed" as a driving aid in this context.) I expect the final game to have a wide variety of help options which all will be coupled with tiny performance penalties, just like the auto shift and ABS options in the demo. This way, the fastest guys will still be driving without helps. Let me analyse your reasoning: If you're selling a top notch product in a comparatively small number of units, the price per unit has to make up for the little volume. Mercedes E300 $50000 Fiat 600 $ 5000 Mercedes can afford to sell fewer cars than Fiat because the earn more per unit. (The prices are made up, but you see what I mean.) TSW $ 500 T2 $ 50 Trev can afford to sell fewer wheels than Thrustmaster for the same reason. GPL $ 50 F1RS $ 50 Papyrus can afford to sell fewer copies than Ubi --- wait, now, if there was a market for $500.- autosims, this might work. :) Making computer games is a lot like the Hollywood movie industry. Box office is most important, and the price per ticket is more or less fixed. If the movie happens to become a classic work of art, so much the better. I'd prefer to see GPL become the "Pulp Fiction" of autosims, not the "Heaven's Gate". :) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

<snip> % I expect the final game to have a wide variety of help options which % all will be coupled with tiny performance penalties, just like the % auto shift and ABS options in the demo. This way, the fastest guys % will still be driving without helps. I actually expect them to even have an arcade mode ala NASCAR2. There is no harm in including such an option and it will broaden the market value of the product. Besides, some poor sucker may get bitten by the program and eventually move up to non-arcade mode. Maybe that's what everyone is afraid of, one more hot-shot simmer to compete against. <G> <snip> % Making computer games is a lot like the Hollywood movie industry. Box % office is most important, and the price per ticket is more or less % fixed. If the movie happens to become a classic work of art, so much % the better. I'd prefer to see GPL become the "Pulp Fiction" of % autosims, not the "Heaven's Gate". :) Ouch, that hurts! While I enjoyed Pulp Fiction alot, I felt that Heaven's Gate was a much better work of art than Pulp Fiction. But, maybe that's what you are referring to here. You would rather see GPL reach a wider audience? The nice thing about software is that one can make it configurable to the users taste. I certainly don't want Papy to remove the art, but I too would like to see more people enjoy such a fine product as GPL. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I'm using an old (and much abused) T2 and after finding a linear/non-linear balance that I feel comfortable with I have no problems. I may not be that fast (1:11.20) but I can control the car okay, (well, most of the time ;-) You should know that I haven't played GPL for a week now, so I don't think 1:10/1:09 is out of my reach (I hope!!). I found I needed to race against other cars/drivers again. I don't think I'd be happy with just a testing contract, I enjoy racing far more. Anyway, if I can lap in under 1:11 then it can't be that tough, as long as you have the right equipment. My understanding of wheel mounted paddles is that they are on/off switches not analog devices that the brake, throttle should be. They should be great for gear changes though. Alan

GPL *is* the 'next generation product' <g> The key really though is whether there is a big enough marketplace. It doesn't have to reach the maximum number of consumers, just enough to be comfortably profitable. With the right marketing a highly realistic sim could probably find enough of a core market simply amongst ex-racers and would be racers. Since the cost of a top end PC and wheel/pedals is significantly less than buying and running a race car, decent equipment may not be too much of a barrier. The biggest hurdle will be getting them to believe that it's worth trying <g> No, nor can I. If the sim can support non-linear steering and brake and throttle help then extra configurability in the control department is a no brainer IMHO. is valid and will get to me <g> Actually at turns 6 and 8 it's best to brake diagonally across the road towards the apex - that way when you start the turn in the camber is working in your favour rather than against you! I'm increasingly finding that I *can* brake into the corners, steer whilst braking, etc. It's not really the best thing to do but it's very useful when the car is already in trouble <g> Cheers, Richard

>My understanding of wheel mounted paddles is that they are on/off switches >not analog devices that the brake, throttle should be. They should be >great for gear changes though. >Alan The paddles are pots mounted in the wheel. I found the wheel to be a great value at $39.95 on sale at CompUSA a couple of months ago. My lap times on GPL are close to some of the fastest posted. Also you are not locked into a rigid seating postion for long runs as you would be with floor pedals.

Well... Might be because F1 cars don't roll as much as those in GPL! I guess you're right. But I still think it shouldn't upset the car as much as it does... I'm sure many will agree when we'll (finally) be able to race against CC. Some people (myself included) will have a hard time not touching other cars while passing on straights if the car is so unstable that it won't hold a straight line. It has to be unstable, but not to that degree IMHO... A. Renault

Ok, I get your point. But even if realism increases, they still have to include options that will help the new/casual user to get those skills. They have to keep in touch with their current customers, but at the same time they have to reach out to new customers. Non that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it should be adjustable, or at least have a more significant effect on steering (by my standards anyway - I don't expect you or anyone to agree on this one, that's why an adjustable feature is what I'm asking for). A. Renault

says... I just cannot become accustomed to accelerating and braking with hand- operated levers. I've tried this wheel, but for me it is useless and I think that is where my two mates are at.....they really need a conventional arrangement. It's a matter of what the individual prefers, of course. -- Regards, --- Bruce. The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

No....they are actual potentiometers in this case. I....and others I know....just find this type of arrangement difficult, if not impossible, to come to terms with. The act of braking/accelerating whilst using hand-operated levers just doesn't come naturally. -- Regards, --- Bruce. The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Actually, since his knowledge of driving sims is likely to be pretty small, he'll suggest flashier graphics.... ....sort of like the SODA situation really <g> It all depends on how they are done. I don't mind anything that merely pre-processes the driver's input in a defined manner (so reduce with speed is fine in my book), and obviously non-performance enhancing aids (such as Papy's implementation of braking help) are fine. But I draw the line at abominations like GP2's opposite lock. That one help effectively killed off most interest in GP2 by hard core sim fans - at least those that wanted to compete in leagues. If the games industry is truely comparable to the Hollywood movie industry then I think it's time to start looking for another hobby ;-) Thankfully I think a lot of games producers have considerably more integrity than can be found anywhere near Hollywood and the attitude is more one of 'produce a classic and the sales will be high' than 'produce something for the mass market and kid everyone that it is a classic'. Cheers, Richard

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> > As has been mentioned by others, it is a matter of how good the wheel > >is as to whether it will allow you to run in linear mode. Running in NL > >with all Papy sims I have NEVER had any problems at all - particularly > >in a straight line. Also, as I have mentioned before, body roll and > >weight transfer are a significant part of Papy sims and it takes a > >little anticipation of the weight transfer, when exiting corners, to > >keep the car dead straight. Once again, it's a matter of what you are > >accustomed to. GP2 and F1RS seem to have little or no body roll > >modelling at all. > Well... Might be because F1 cars don't roll as much as those in GPL! > I guess you're right. But I still think it shouldn't upset the car as > much as it does... I'm sure many will agree when we'll (finally) be > able to race against CC. Some people (myself included) will have a > hard time not touching other cars while passing on straights if the > car is so unstable that it won't hold a straight line. It has to be > unstable, but not to that degree IMHO...

I was wondering how I would ever run in traffic when I first started with GPL. 6 hours later I was ready.

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> >MUST continue to increase or sales will decrease for sure and a whole > >bunch of sim racers would wait till a good sim arrived and go and play > >with flight sims, etc in the meantime. > Ok, I get your point. But even if realism increases, they still have > to include options that will help the new/casual user to get those > skills. They have to keep in touch with their current customers, but > at the same time they have to reach out to new customers.

Well, they do have throttle and braking help and auto gears. Not to mention the very easy in comparison GP3's. What else could they have? I would imagine a novice could lap fairly consistantly in a GP3 Brabham with all aids. Hard to say of course if your far from being a novice.

> I don't think, however, that GPL needs to be "watered down" to suit > "the masses". The nice thing about help *options* is that you can turn > them off - the sim car you're driving won't feature opposite lock help > or auto braking, the car for the casual gamer will. And everybody will > be happy. (BTW, I don't see "reduce with speed" as a driving aid in > this context.) Don't you think GPL is already easy enough with all aids in a GP3 Brabham?

: About that linearity slider well... I've tried so much different : positions (to no avail) that I don't think this alone would be of any : help. : Personally, I feel that unless one has a force-feedback wheel (and even some kind of force simulator), a kind of "reduce linearity with speed", or something similar is justifiable. When I'm driving (a real car) the resistance of the wheel to my movements is a pretty good indicator of how close to the cornering limit I am. As one approaches the limit, the wheel becomes progressively stiffer, until suddenly it becomes limp when the car starts sliding. I think your comments about a real car resisting changes in direction at speed are valid. Ryan

Yes of course these options are nice, but I prefer the "slider" approach as you can move more progressively towards realism. As you already know the learning curve is pretty steep in GPL! A. Renault

% > Well, they do have throttle and braking help and auto gears. Not to % >mention the very easy in comparison GP3's. What else could they have? I % >would imagine a novice could lap fairly consistantly in a GP3 Brabham % >with all aids. Hard to say of course if your far from being a novice. % Yes of course these options are nice, but I prefer the "slider" % approach as you can move more progressively towards realism. As you % already know the learning curve is pretty steep in GPL! I know most of the racket has been about the steering sensitivity. However, I have a big problem with the sensitivity of the brakes. I find that just the slightest amount of pressure and they are ready to lock. I still have plenty of travel left in my brake pedal and would like to see a "slider" setting that will allow me to use more of this travel. It seems that with GPL the brakes are in full lock mode with less than 40% of brake travel. Is this realistic? -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>> >MUST continue to increase or sales will decrease for sure and a whole >> >bunch of sim racers would wait till a good sim arrived and go and play >> >with flight sims, etc in the meantime. >> Ok, I get your point. But even if realism increases, they still have >> to include options that will help the new/casual user to get those >> skills. They have to keep in touch with their current customers, but >> at the same time they have to reach out to new customers. > Well, they do have throttle and braking help and auto gears. Not to >mention the very easy in comparison GP3's. What else could they have? I >would imagine a novice could lap fairly consistantly in a GP3 Brabham >with all aids. Hard to say of course if your far from being a novice.

I'm a novice. I keep spinning, usually by oversteering entering a curve a bit too hot, and then overcorrecting. G3 car, all aids off. T2 wheel and Voodoo1 and P55C at 2.5x83 -- so I'm not blaming my spins on the controller or my frame rate, but on my incompetence. It's hard to keep myself from going into the corners too fast for my skill level. I don't think the aids would really make a difference there. What might help would be a ghost car of a good driver taking it easy around the track, so that I could get a better feel for the right driving line and entry speeds. -- spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:01:46 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"

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>I know most of the racket has been about the steering sensitivity. >However, I have a big problem with the sensitivity of the brakes. I >find that just the slightest amount of pressure and they are ready to >lock. I still have plenty of travel left in my brake pedal and would >like to see a "slider" setting that will allow me to use more of this >travel. It seems that with GPL the brakes are in full lock mode with >less than 40% of brake travel. Is this realistic?

Braking pedal travel is relatively easy to adjust in any real car, so I guess it should be adjustable in GPL too. A. Renault

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>I know most of the racket has been about the steering sensitivity. >However, I have a big problem with the sensitivity of the brakes. I >find that just the slightest amount of pressure and they are ready to >lock. I still have plenty of travel left in my brake pedal and would >like to see a "slider" setting that will allow me to use more of this >travel. It seems that with GPL the brakes are in full lock mode with >less than 40% of brake travel. Is this realistic?

Hi Michael, I don`t think that brake pedal behaviour is realistic, not in GPL nor in any other sim. But that is just because the pedals in PC controllers do not actually simulate real brake pedals very well. You see, brake systems in cars are operated hidraulically: when they start to have an effect, it is the pressure the driver feels, and not the travel, that indicates to him how heavily he is acting on the brake. On PC pedals, this would mean that all the braking should be done in the final 1/4 of the travel, or even less (as it happens in most real cars), and it would have to have a sort of thick *** stop, to simulate the effect of increased hydraulic pressure with increased braking effort. Thrustmaster tried to do something about this, in the T2, by fitting a stronger spring on the brake than on the gas pedal, but they didn`t go quite far enough. It was an improvement though, upon the earlier T1 So, you see, IMO this is a hardware issue, and not really connected with any particular sim. As always, I apologise for any mistakes. Daniel Fris

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>> I don't think, however, that GPL needs to be "watered down" to suit >> "the masses". The nice thing about help *options* is that you can turn >> them off - the sim car you're driving won't feature opposite lock help >> or auto braking, the car for the casual gamer will. And everybody will >> be happy. (BTW, I don't see "reduce with speed" as a driving aid in >> this context.) > Don't you think GPL is already easy enough with all aids in a GP3 >Brabham?

Easy enough, but maybe not spectacular enough. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

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> I'm a novice. I keep spinning, usually by oversteering entering a > curve a bit too hot, and then overcorrecting. G3 car, all aids off. > T2 wheel and Voodoo1 and P55C at 2.5x83 -- so I'm not blaming my > spins on the controller or my frame rate, but on my incompetence. > It's hard to keep myself from going into the corners too fast for > my skill level. I don't think the aids would really make a > difference there. What might help would be a ghost car of a > good driver taking it easy around the track, so that I could get > a better feel for the right driving line and entry speeds.

BIG TIP - apply a little throttle as you turn in to get some weight over the rear wheels.

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> % > Well, they do have throttle and braking help and auto gears. Not to > % >mention the very easy in comparison GP3's. What else could they have? I > % >would imagine a novice could lap fairly consistantly in a GP3 Brabham > % >with all aids. Hard to say of course if your far from being a novice. > % Yes of course these options are nice, but I prefer the "slider" > % approach as you can move more progressively towards realism. As you > % already know the learning curve is pretty steep in GPL! > I know most of the racket has been about the steering sensitivity. > However, I have a big problem with the sensitivity of the brakes. I > find that just the slightest amount of pressure and they are ready to > lock. I still have plenty of travel left in my brake pedal and would > like to see a "slider" setting that will allow me to use more of this > travel. It seems that with GPL the brakes are in full lock mode with > less than 40% of brake travel. Is this realistic?

I had this problem in CPR but not with GPL at all. Funnily enough, the other night I realised I had the brake pedal almost fully depressed when the brakes began to lock. With this physics model and weight transfer the stability of the car and whether it is on nice flat, smooth bitumen (unlike approach to turn 4) plays a big role in brake lockup too. Also Micheal, especially if you have been playing with your V II drivers (I think you said you have a V II), even with the optimised steering input, you need to recalibrate in Win 95 and again in GPL. I have found my steering to go way out of whack after installing new drivers for the V II. Maybe other things cause this too and also effect acc/braking.

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> >> I don't think, however, that GPL needs to be "watered down" to suit > >> "the masses". The nice thing about help *options* is that you can turn > >> them off - the sim car you're driving won't feature opposite lock help > >> or auto braking, the car for the casual gamer will. And everybody will > >> be happy. (BTW, I don't see "reduce with speed" as a driving aid in > >> this context.) > > Don't you think GPL is already easy enough with all aids in a GP3 > >Brabham? > Easy enough, but maybe not spectacular enough.

Gee, talk about wanting your cake and eating it!

% > I'm a novice. I keep spinning, usually by oversteering entering a % > curve a bit too hot, and then overcorrecting. G3 car, all aids off. % > T2 wheel and Voodoo1 and P55C at 2.5x83 -- so I'm not blaming my % > spins on the controller or my frame rate, but on my incompetence. % > % > It's hard to keep myself from going into the corners too fast for % > my skill level. I don't think the aids would really make a % > difference there. What might help would be a ghost car of a % > good driver taking it easy around the track, so that I could get % > a better feel for the right driving line and entry speeds. % > % BIG TIP - apply a little throttle as you turn in to get some weight % over the rear wheels. And the key word here is "little", be smooth and only apply just a touch of throttle to roll the weight over the rear wheels. I've also found that it helps, at first, to try to be slightly "inside" the groove until you have confidence in the "feel" of the car. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>% > I'm a novice. I keep spinning, usually by oversteering entering a >% > curve a bit too hot, and then overcorrecting. G3 car, all aids off. >% > T2 wheel and Voodoo1 and P55C at 2.5x83 -- so I'm not blaming my >% > spins on the controller or my frame rate, but on my incompetence. >% > >% > It's hard to keep myself from going into the corners too fast for >% > my skill level. I don't think the aids would really make a >% > difference there. What might help would be a ghost car of a >% > good driver taking it easy around the track, so that I could get >% > a better feel for the right driving line and entry speeds. >% > >% BIG TIP - apply a little throttle as you turn in to get some weight >% over the rear wheels. >And the key word here is "little", be smooth and only apply just a touch >of throttle to roll the weight over the rear wheels. I've also found >that it helps, at first, to try to be slightly "inside" the groove until >you have confidence in the "feel" of the car.

Thanks for the tips, guys. I read the Apex track guide about five times last night, and practiced for a couple of hours, and now I'm turning pretty consistent 1:31-1:32 laps in the G3 car, with no aids. 8 seconds slower than the big boys, but I'm not spinning out much anymore. Bringing up my speed through the corners is going to be a gradual process. Part of the problem is that the gauges are unreadable, making it hard to set a consistent target entry speed. When I do lose it, I still can't recover. Some of the countersteering exhibitions I've seen in fast lap replays amaze me. Anyway, back to the original point of this thread, I don't think the driving aids are all that necessary even for novices, at least not novices with wheels. Just some good advice and some practice. I hope the full game ships with a driving guide, to give novices without net access a fighting chance. -- spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.

% Thanks for the tips, guys. I read the Apex track guide about five times % last night, and practiced for a couple of hours, and now I'm turning % pretty consistent 1:31-1:32 laps in the G3 car, with no aids. 8 % seconds slower than the big boys, but I'm not spinning out much % anymore. Bringing up my speed through the corners is going to be a % gradual process. Part of the problem is that the gauges are unreadable, % making it hard to set a consistent target entry speed. You are on the right track. At first do not concentrate on speed, but staying on the track and getting to know the "feel" of your car. Part of that feel is achieved by "listening". Listen to the engine (even though the sounds are just "placeholders") and you can gauge your speed fairly well. Don't distract yourself by looking at the gauges. Concetrate on the road and the feel of the car. When it begins to sink in (and the learning plateaus in GPL are many and quite steep) it will become second nature. Then you can start to work on speed. But first be slow and consistent. Also, until you really get a handle on controlling the car, it is best to be in a higher gear than you want when cornering. It is safer to be in a higher gear than too low of a gear and having too much torque in the rear wheels when you try to bring the car back into shape. Take your time climbing the speed ladder and you will achieve your goal much faster than if you push too hard! % When I do lose it, I still can't recover. Some of the countersteering % exhibitions I've seen in fast lap replays amaze me. It can depend on where you lose it. If you are way off camber it may be nigh impossible to save. Also the countersteering is usually in conjuction with subtle throttle play. As a matter of fact, unless you really feel the car is going to get totally away from you, try to control it first with the throttle. Just touching the throttle a hair can transfer enough weight to the rear to keep it from sliding away. While a light lift (or even a feather touch on the brake) can help transfer the weight to the front tires and help with understeer. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<snip> Arguably, the choice of the movie titles wasn't perfect to illustrate my point. What I wanted to express was: both movies represent impressive artistic achievements (IMHO), they both received critical acclaim. Yet, "Pulp Fiction" was also a commercial success, whereas "Heaven's Gate" led to the bancrupcy of the production company IIRC. Tarantino is a superstar of the industry; Cimino, AFAIK, is not in the movie business anymore. If we wanted to extend the film / sim analogy a bit, I would argue that Crammond corresponds to Kubrick: every single work a masterpiece, but you have to wait forever for the next one. :) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

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> Thanks for the tips, guys. I read the Apex track guide about five times > last night, and practiced for a couple of hours, and now I'm turning > pretty consistent 1:31-1:32 laps in the G3 car, with no aids. 8 > seconds slower than the big boys, but I'm not spinning out much > anymore. Bringing up my speed through the corners is going to be a > gradual process. Part of the problem is that the gauges are unreadable, > making it hard to set a consistent target entry speed. > When I do lose it, I still can't recover. Some of the countersteering > exhibitions I've seen in fast lap replays amaze me. > Anyway, back to the original point of this thread, I don't think the > driving aids are all that necessary even for novices, at least not > novices with wheels. Just some good advice and some practice. I hope > the full game ships with a driving guide, to give novices without net > access a fighting chance.

Two words David - Practice and practice! (obvious but anyway)