Force Feedback Questions

Some of the people involved with the making of racing sims have recently stated that the force feedback technology currently available is not advanced enough to make it worthwhile to include force feedback capability in upcoming sims. I'd like to know what the problems are. After reviewing the documentation available on the I-Force extensions to DX5, it seems that there should be enough functionality to project the feel of a cars handling to a force feedback steering wheel through the use of dynamic inertia effects. Is the problem simply the computational power and bandwidth required to continuously update the feedback dynamically? Canned force feedback effects would probably add little to the driving experience, although feeling things like gear shifts and engine vibration would probably add to the feeling of immersion in a sim. It seems that the abilities available in the Hard Drivin'and Hard Racin' arcade games should be workable on a PC by now! I haven't had a chance to try FF on a PC yet, though I should be able to start experimenting with it in a few weeks. Can someone who has tried it with F1RS or SODA comment? -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

Force feedback opinions :- 1) CART from Microsoft is very good 2) POD with the new patch it is excellent 3) F1RS is OK, but there is a new (up to POD standard) patch on the way 4) Ultimate Race PRO is a bit weak - the effects are a lot better in the demo than the full version. I am using the Ultimate Per4mer FF Wheel, and I also have the MS Sidewinder FF PRO. Hope this helps, Iain >Some of the people involved with the making of racing sims have recently >stated that the force feedback technology currently available is not >advanced enough to make it worthwhile to include force feedback >capability in upcoming sims. >I'd like to know what the problems are.

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> Force feedback opinions :- > 1) CART from Microsoft is very good > 2) POD with the new patch it is excellent > 3) F1RS is OK, but there is a new (up to POD standard) patch on the way > 4) Ultimate Race PRO is a bit weak - the effects are a lot better in the > demo than the full version. > I am using the Ultimate Per4mer FF Wheel, and I also have the MS Sidewinder > FF PRO.

Can you tell me how well the "feel of the road" is transmitted through the steering wheel. That is, can you feel when the car is loose or tight, and when it is about to spin? Or, do you just get bumps and impact sensations from hitting things? The latter would just be a novelty for me, and not really worth having. I'm hoping that we'll have good FF in GPL, but based on what some of the people from Papyrus have said, we may not. It sure seems like we should be able to sense things like a loose condition or wheels locking up under braking with the current technology. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

Hi That statement about not being worth while is a bunch of junk . I have the ulitimate performer force feedback Wheel and pedals and with cart precision it is awesome!! . Everything you want to feel is there , also soda is great you feel the mud and bumps and one wheel on the mud and one off . Andretti racing is also very good as is UBI F1 . I have raced these sims extensivly and It now feels like I am driving a race car not out for a sunday drive on a smooth expressway sunday jount . Try it youll never go

Believe me Pat, feeling your hands shake when going over rumble strips, and feeling the effects when you touch a wall or get knocked by another car is NOT just a novelty. You cannot go back to non FF sims after experiencing the likes of CART and POD. By the way, the new IForce2 patch for Per4mer FF I mentioned in my previous post for F1RS has just been released by Ubi, and I am downloading it now. you can feel the different tightness of the steering in skid or normal conditions, and the undulations of the road at times, e.g. the corkscrew at Laguna Seca in CART PR. Happy racing! Iain

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>Can you tell me how well the "feel of the road" is transmitted through >the steering wheel. That is, can you feel when the car is loose or >tight, and when it is about to spin? Or, do you just get bumps and >impact sensations from hitting things? The latter would just be a >novelty for me, and not really worth having. I'm hoping that we'll >have good FF in GPL, but based on what some of the people from Papyrus >have said, we may not. >It sure seems like we should be able to sense things like a loose >condition or wheels locking up under braking with the current >technology. >-- >Pat Dotson >IMPACT Motorsports

On a related subject, some news was leaked out a few days ago that MS is releasing a Sidewinder Force-Feedback steering wheel device in the next few months. You can rip apart MS all you want on the software and OS side, but their game controllers (not actually made by MS) are top-notch. Now I'm sure these wheels won't be great "simulation controllers" like the ECCI or TSW, but I think they'll be a great alternative to Thrustmaster products, and when you add the FF to it, there's nothing like it. And I'm sure they'll use digital controls as opposed to analog pots. Anyone heard what Papy's stance is on FF in their upcoming titles? I thought I read that they weren't going to support FF in Nascar3, so I'm sure GPL is out of the question also.

> Believe me Pat, feeling your hands shake when going over rumble > strips, and feeling the effects when you touch a wall or get > knocked by another car is NOT just a novelty. I think I didn't make myself completely clear. What I mean is that the primary need for FF is to transmit the feel of the road to the sim driver. If that part is missing, then all the other effects, while not being useless, wouldn't make the experience much better for me. I typically try to avoid hitting things or running off the track :) If only impacts and collisions were modelled, FF would be wasted in most of my racing. Especially in a longer race where you may go for an hour or more without hitting a wall or another car. My point is that those extra effects will be great when present in addition to the feel of the road (or handling of the car - however you want to say it). But, if those extra effects are all there are, then they won't make that much difference to me. So is Papy putting FF in GPL or what? -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

> Hi That statement about not being worth while is a bunch of junk . I just mean that the impacts and things are more like "eye-candy" graphics - if the "feel of the road" isn't modelled correctly then they won't add a lot to the experience. That seems like a reasonable statement. I should get to try it in a few more weeks - can't wait! -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

> Anyone heard what Papy's stance is on FF in their upcoming titles? I > thought I read that they weren't going to support FF in Nascar3, so > I'm sure GPL is out of the question also. Yes, I wish Papyrus would say more on this subject. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

Pat Dotson wrote AFAIK, not for the moment. They prefer focus on other things I would presume. Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

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> > Hi That statement about not being worth while is a bunch of junk . > I just mean that the impacts and things are more like "eye-candy" > graphics - if the "feel of the road" isn't modelled correctly then > they won't add a lot to the experience. That seems like a > reasonable statement. > >Try it youll never go back to a regular wheel again!!! > I should get to try it in a few more weeks - can't wait!

Just a simple question for those with a FF wheel. Do FF wheels still have the same tensioning as a normal wheel? What I really wish to know is do they work ok with games like ICR2, etc that are not programmed for FF?

If they don't put FF into GPL it will be the Crime of the Century!!!!!! We finally have a sim worthy of FF and it won't be included?!! Say it isn't so!! Chris

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> Pat Dotson wrote > >So is Papy putting FF in GPL or what? > AFAIK, not for the moment. They prefer focus on other things I would > presume. > Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) > Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club > Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) > Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) > --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Hi ,Sorry the wheel dosn't work in dos games only windows games and if the game dosn't have force feedback it has no centering position bummer however you can use the ultimate Performer in the windows version of ICR2 but no rendition suport then , . I talked to the manufacture about this and he said it is up to sierra to get dos mode run in box in windows to work with wheel . My Favoritate Sim is tetering between ICR2 my alltime favorate and Cart Precision Racing . For thoses who say Ai is bad in Cart check race performance on and try to beat the ai cars . I drive A Penske in cart and just try to beat the others at Michigan It is very tough even in a 30 lap race . I havent yet beat them even with a very good setup . One little mistake and boom its over .zThen if you can try dammage and force feedback wheel and if you still can try putting on the head movement option to simulate g forces . As you might see I'm not so intetrested in going faster I'm interested in realism , I want to feel the curbs the bumps , the grass and the hits from the wall and other cars . Even in the rain the force feedback effect is awesome it feels real to me and I'm not a kid I'm 47, and I still think that the Ultimate performer is awesome the ultimate addition to racing sims !!!! .

Couldn't agree more! and I'm not a kid I'm 47, and I still think that the Ultimate performer is awesome the ultimate addition to racing sims !!!! .

On Sat, 02 May 1998 09:50:32 -0400, Chris Rogers >If they don't put FF into GPL it will be the Crime of the Century!!!!!! We >finally have a sim worthy of FF and it won't be included?!! Say it isn't so!! First of all, we have to have FF worthy of a sim.... Cheers, Richard

where is a web page with info on this wheel? pix, prices >Hi ,Sorry the wheel dosn't work in dos games only windows games and if the >game dosn't have force feedback it has no centering position bummer however >you can use the ultimate Performer in the windows version of ICR2 but no >rendition suport then , . I talked to the manufacture about this and he said

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>it is up to sierra to get dos mode run in box in windows to work with wheel >. My Favoritate Sim is tetering between ICR2 my alltime favorate and Cart >Precision Racing . For thoses who say Ai is bad in Cart check race >performance on and try to beat the ai cars . I drive A Penske in cart and >just try to beat the others at Michigan It is very tough even in a 30 lap >race . I havent yet beat them even with a very good setup . One little >mistake and boom its over .zThen if you can try dammage and force feedback >wheel and if you still can try putting on the head movement option to >simulate g forces . As you might see I'm not so intetrested in going faster >I'm interested in realism , I want to feel the curbs the bumps , the grass >and the hits from the wall and other cars . Even in the rain the force >feedback effect is awesome it feels real to me and I'm not a kid I'm 47,

and >I still think that the Ultimate performer is awesome the ultimate addition >to racing sims !!!! .

> Just a simple question for those with a FF wheel. Do FF wheels still > have the same tensioning as a normal wheel? What I really wish to know > is do they work ok with games like ICR2, etc that are not programmed for > FF? After reading some of the documentation provided by I-Force, it seems that you will be able to program custom tensioning effects into a wheel if it isn't supported by a game. There is an on-board force processor on any wheel that supports I-Force 2.0 that will handle the load. I assume you will have to download the force effects that you want before you start the game. These settings are fixed of course and you don't get any feedback from non - I-Force games. There are a lot of different effects to use like adjustable springs and dampers. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

> >If they don't put FF into GPL it will be the Crime of the > >Century!!!!!! We > >finally have a sim worthy of FF and it won't be included?!! Say it > >isn't so!! > First of all, we have to have FF worthy of a sim.... Have you tried a FF wheel on a PC? I've seen 5 or 6 people criticize current FF without being specific as to their experience with it. The only first-hand accounts I've seen have been positive. If you have experience with current FF devices, and don't think they are any good, please tell me why. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

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>Have you tried a FF wheel on a PC? I've seen 5 or 6 people >criticize current FF without being specific as to their >experience with it. The only first-hand accounts I've seen >have been positive. >If you have experience with current FF devices, and don't >think they are any good, please tell me why.

No, I haven't tried a FF wheel on a PC. I think the Per4mer is the only one released anywhere and AFAIK it's not for sale in the UK which would make it hard to get to try ;-) But I find it hard to believe that for the price quoted the basic design would be any better than the standard Per4mer. If so, it isn't even worth considering for a sim. I have tried FF joysticks and whilst they are fun, the feedback isn't exactly subtle and has noticable lag. To be worthwhile for a sim, FF has to provide the 'seat of the pants' feel with comparable resolution to that we get audibly and visually - i.e. 25 - 30 times a second. One off effects for hitting walls or even kerbs are not going to make the *driving* any better. Getting FF latency down to around 0.04 seconds will require rather better components than could be fitted to a $199 wheel. But there again, some people like the standard Per4mer and find 10fps acceptable. No doubt they will also find the current state of the art FF acceptable. Cheers, Richard PS: Ever wondered why there isn't a FF TSW or ECCI? <g>

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> >Have you tried a FF wheel on a PC? I've seen 5 or 6 people > >criticize current FF without being specific as to their > >experience with it. The only first-hand accounts I've seen > >have been positive. > >If you have experience with current FF devices, and don't > >think they are any good, please tell me why. > No, I haven't tried a FF wheel on a PC. I think the Per4mer is the only one > released anywhere and AFAIK it's not for sale in the UK which would make it > hard to get to try ;-)

Thanks for clarifying your qualifications :) I haven't seen one of those wheels so I'll trust your judgement. I agree wholeheartedly about the "one off" effects - we need to feel the road. According to the research I've read, lag times of less than 25 milleseconds are imperceptible. That's 40 updates a second, which is well within the capability of a serial port. Maybe the lag you've seen on joysticks is due to poor programming? Are you talking about latency across the communications bus? 0.04 seconds shouldn't be a problem, especially if USB can be used. As far as the latency between the I-Force processor and the control motors, the information I've read implies that it can maintain a 1000 Hz loop (1000 times a second). If there is a market for it, then why not include it? My argument against leaving it out is that including FF support will speed up development of the hardware. No one is going to produce the hardware if there is no software to support it! So what if the currently available controllers have too much lag? It will be that much shorter a period of time until better controllers are available if the software support is there. Maybe because there is a big difference between wiring together some springs and potentiometers vs. implementing motors, processors, and software? There is a big leap in the engineering involved - perhaps they aren't up to the challenge :) BTW, Thrustmaster does supposedly have an I-Force 2.0 compliant wheel in the works. I do find it hard to believe that good FF can be had for the price of some of these wheels. I'm not going to write them off without trying it myself, though. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

> > PS: Ever wondered why there isn't a FF TSW or ECCI? <g> > Maybe because there is a big difference between wiring together some > springs and potentiometers vs. implementing motors, processors, and > software? There is a big leap in the engineering involved - perhaps > they aren't up to the challenge :) Pat, we could implement FF at any time we choose, I just wonder how many people would be willing to pay the price for doing it right, we're talking about a $1,500.00 to $2,000.00 wheel. We wont use inferior electronics or motors and good ones dont come cheap. Until serious sim makers such as Papyrus and others adopt FF and there is a way to implement sideslip and centrifugal force then it will most likely remain as it is today, a silly arcade game gimmick :(. Trev

Pat, i've already answered your question - see above!

You can edit the effects in F1RS and POD using iForce Studio.

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>After reading some of the documentation provided by I-Force, it seems >that you will be able to program custom tensioning effects into a wheel >if it isn't supported by a game. There is an on-board force processor >on any wheel that supports I-Force 2.0 that will handle the load. I >assume you will have to download the force effects that you want before >you start the game. These settings are fixed of course and you don't >get any feedback from non - I-Force games. There are a lot of different >effects to use like adjustable springs and dampers. >-- >Pat Dotson >IMPACT Motorsports

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> > > PS: Ever wondered why there isn't a FF TSW or ECCI? <g> > > Maybe because there is a big difference between wiring together some > > springs and potentiometers vs. implementing motors, processors, and > > software? There is a big leap in the engineering involved - perhaps > > they aren't up to the challenge :) > Pat, we could implement FF at any time we choose, I just wonder how many > people would be willing to pay the price for doing it right, we're > talking about a $1,500.00 to $2,000.00 wheel. We wont use inferior > electronics or motors and good ones dont come cheap.

Thanks for the response Trev. Could you tell me what the drawbacks are with cheaper motors? Do they: wear out too quickly, have low control resolution, not produce enough force - what's the problem? This is why they should include the capability, even if it isn't perfect. I think that the effects produced in Hard Drivin' were incredible. It came out, what, 10 years ago? It can surely be reproduced on a PC by now. Maybe you mean something in addition to a wheel? I don't think that platform- type motion simulators will be accepted for a long time. I've kind of been kicking around ideas for a seat-cover type of thing that would apply forces to the body. If you are turning right, the left side of the seat stiffens, if you step on the gas the back of it stiffens, etc. That will require another level of software support beyond what's already available, so implementing it would be difficult right now. BTW, how about a sponsorship? :) -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

> Some of the people involved with the making of racing sims have recently > stated that the force feedback technology currently available is not > advanced enough to make it worthwhile to include force feedback > capability in upcoming sims. I've been one of the more outspoken detractors of $100 FF... Whether $100 FF is "better than nothing" is something each person will reach their own conclusions about. Yes, the API provides everything that's needed to get the job done pretty darn well. The problem is building the device that gets the job done well. Not at all; that problem is easy, provided you are willing to stick a small microprocessor in the unit, or less flexibly, build a small analog computer to compute the error term. For the computational power you'd need, you'd be looking at no more than the 386 or 486 embedded range. You could probably get by with an HC11 or large PIC, but embeddable 486's aren't all that expensive... At this point (assuming a digital control loop), you're better off installing optical shaft encoders [no wear, EXCELLENT tracking], which adds to the cost, but makes the end product much better. You now have drift free, multiple rotation (> 360 degrees) steering input. (And if you write the controller code right, it can be "self-calibrating" [drive it full left deflection, full right deflection, and "bingo" it's calibrated]. The real problem is how do you make parts (encoders, populated circuit boards, motor and power supply) that cost >= $500 "fit" in a consumer price-point item. In other words, for pure force feedback, you'd need to either: Have a servo motor that did "everything" so there was no mechanical spring or damper in the unit; that's a fairly powerful motor, and you'd need a reasonable control loop to make it feel right. Or, you need a spring in the system and a servo motor powerful enough to overcome it (when the front wheels are airborne for example, or they are driven to the steering stop by impact). Again, you need a powerful motor and an even faster control loop that can "back out" the effect of the spring to make it feel right. Agreed all round. It's not computational power, it's mechanical design, component cost and reliability. ---Jim

> > > > PS: Ever wondered why there isn't a FF TSW or ECCI? <g> > > > Maybe because there is a big difference between wiring together some > > > springs and potentiometers vs. implementing motors, processors, and > > > software? There is a big leap in the engineering involved - perhaps > > > they aren't up to the challenge :) I believe that if either of those companies decided to, they could; remember, a "hired gun" is always an option. Pricing is the issue, exactly as someone is about to tell you: Usually not enough force (force is also a function of power supply; PS without sufficient "stiffness" also can't drive the servo motors well; "stiff" power supplies with high continuous current aren't cheap, even when powered by the mains [as they would certainly have to be]) I disagree somewhat; why bother implementing something that gives your customers comparatively little benefit and that you think is a joke given the state of the world. It would be akin to modelling rain and water effects "correctly" just to give Intel something to chew on as they design the next generation of chips. Jump-starting consumer force-feedback is not Papyrus' job. Agreed. Any idea what a Hard Drivin' cabinet with everything working goes for? :-) Sure it could, but not for $40 in parts... (Factoring in the "factor of five" from parts cost to final product retail.) ---Jim

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>> I think that the effects produced in Hard Drivin' were incredible. >Agreed. Any idea what a Hard Drivin' cabinet with everything working >goes for? :-) >> It >> came out, what, 10 years ago? It can surely be reproduced on a PC >> by now. >Sure it could, but not for $40 in parts... (Factoring in the "factor >of five" from parts cost to final product retail.)

Btw, there is a Atari relative person here who lurks and posts sometimes, who worked on the FF wheel for Hard Drivin' AFAIK. Maybe he could add to this thread. There is still one running at my local arcade, and I fell funny when people wonder why I spent 25 on this old, cheap looking game ;-) I really liked the Key ;-) I would guess an unit like that could cost more than 10000$ these days, especially with collectioners. I have a dream to have one in my house, along with a life-size replica of Han Solo in Carbonite (that's another fantasm !). Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

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> > > PS: Ever wondered why there isn't a FF TSW or ECCI? <g> > > Maybe because there is a big difference between wiring together some > > springs and potentiometers vs. implementing motors, processors, and > Pat, we could implement FF at any time we choose, I just wonder how many > people would be willing to pay the price for doing it right, we're > talking about a $1,500.00 to $2,000.00 wheel. We wont use inferior > electronics or motors and good ones dont come cheap.

Well, one time Atari did a "low cost" version of the wheel in Hard Drivin' and it felt great -- but I imagine by the time it was packaged with drive electronics, etc. it would still be in the $500.00 range (retail). The other thing to remember is that Atari has a good patent on FF combined with driving games, so anyone producing FF wheels has the added cost of a license. Not a lot, but in manufacturing the costs add up quickly... -- Doug

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> > > > PS: Ever wondered why there isn't a FF TSW or ECCI? <g> > > > Maybe because there is a big difference between wiring together some > > > springs and potentiometers vs. implementing motors, processors, and > > Pat, we could implement FF at any time we choose, I just wonder how many > > people would be willing to pay the price for doing it right, we're > > talking about a $1,500.00 to $2,000.00 wheel. We wont use inferior > > electronics or motors and good ones dont come cheap. > Well, one time Atari did a "low cost" version of the wheel in Hard Drivin' > and it felt great -- but I imagine by the time it was packaged with > drive electronics, etc. it would still be in the $500.00 range (retail). > The other thing to remember is that Atari has a good patent on FF combined > with driving games, so anyone producing FF wheels has the added cost of a > license. Not a lot, but in manufacturing the costs add up quickly... > -- Doug

Hi Doug, The cost of licensing is a consideration, true but the main cost factor is our requirements for quality components such as motors, gear trains etc. Since we have the best warranty of any manufacturer of racing controllers, we demand the highest possible precision in component parts and these dont come cheap! The toy FF wheels out right now will probably last about as long as the warranty and when they fail, it isnt going to be a simple cheap broken spring, bungee or whatever and may cost as much as the wheel did just to get it going again. Thomas Ent has a rep for absolute quality and service and we wont endanger that by using inferior components. Trev

> I think that the effects produced in Hard Drivin' were incredible. It > came out, what, 10 years ago? It can surely be reproduced on a PC > by now. Thanks! (I was a consultant to the development team). I still enjoy my HD. Did you even find the skid pad? Current fast PC's can now equal or better the performance of the 6 processors (including several fast DSP's) that were in the final version of Race Drivin', we have a model that can do it. But I doubt that anyone will be coming out with a FF wheel that uses a huge DC torque motor like the sit-down versions of the game -- it's about 6 inches in diameter and 9-10 inches long! Probably not at home (too big)...but there are several arcade examples. We will be in Chicago soon, with the NASCAR Silicon Motor Speedway: www.lbet.com -- Doug Milliken Research Associates Inc.