Tsw2

I'm curious if any owners of the TSW2 are experiencing any potentiometer problems. My pedals are now very erratic, in both calibration and racing. I tried using both wd40 and tuner cleaner, helped for about a week, now won't help at all. I've only had this thing about 2 months, and already having pot failure. I sure am glad I still have my T2 as a backup, guess I'll have to go back to it, while I wait for the time it takes to send TSW a check for some of their 10.00 pots,and for them to get back to me. I sure thought these would last longer than the T2's did, heck , I think I went a year before having to replace my T2's pots. -- Don Burnette I-65 Racing Dburn on Ten AOLL Iroc Series Administrator http://pages.southtech.net/palmetto/aoll.htm [link lost in import]

>I'm curious if any owners of the TSW2 are experiencing any potentiometer >problems. My pedals are now very erratic, in both calibration and racing. I >tried using both wd40 and tuner cleaner, helped for about a week, now won't >help at all. I've only had this thing about 2 months, and already having pot >failure. I sure am glad I still have my T2 as a backup, guess I'll have to >go back to it, while I wait for the time it takes to send TSW a check for >some of their 10.00 pots,and for them to get back to me. I sure thought Are you joking about this? I would have thought they would send the pots for free... Huh... That is good to know I guess :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

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> >I'm curious if any owners of the TSW2 are experiencing any potentiometer > >problems. My pedals are now very erratic, in both calibration and racing. I > >tried using both wd40 and tuner cleaner, helped for about a week, now won't > >help at all. I've only had this thing about 2 months, and already having > pot > >failure. I sure am glad I still have my T2 as a backup, guess I'll have to > >go back to it, while I wait for the time it takes to send TSW a check for > >some of their 10.00 pots,and for them to get back to me. I sure thought > Are you joking about this? I would have thought they would send > the pots for free... > Huh... That is good to know I guess :-)

Greg, not sure what is meant here, we certainly dont charge for replacement pots, never have. We do sell a premium grade pot for $10.00 each. Trev

You send replacement pots at no charge for the TSW2? -- Don Burnette I-65 Racing Dburn on Ten AOLL Iroc Series Administrator http://pages.southtech.net/palmetto/aoll.htm >Greg, not sure what is meant here, we certainly dont charge for >replacement pots, never have. We do sell a premium grade pot for $10.00 >each. >Trev

On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:06:51 -0500, "Don Burnette" Replace your pots. Any pots, regardless of "quality", are a hit and miss affair, some seem to work forever, others die quickly. BTW, I don't think WD40 is a good pot cleaner as it conducts electricity somewhat and might be hurting more than helping. Sticking to "TV tuner cleaner" will probably work better.

> On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:06:51 -0500, "Don Burnette" > Replace your pots. Any pots, regardless of "quality", are a hit and > miss affair, some seem to work forever, others die quickly. Richard, You understand pots very well :) we have been trying to explain that they do fail and there is no predicting when, no matter who makes the wheel unit and no matter what it costs, a pot is a pot and will fail. Some people seem to think that pot problems have some bearing on the quality of the wheel unit, this just aint so as you well know :) we have a lot of TSW units that have been in service for over 4 years and never had a pot replaced, we have some that fail within a week. This is why we offer free replacement of pots for the life of the unit. Of course the guys who spent the price of a new car for thier wheel will jump up and down and swear that this isnt true but anyone with any ability to understand what a pot is and how they work knows better :)! Trev

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> >You understand pots very well :) we have been trying to explain that > >they do fail and there is no predicting when, no matter who makes the > >wheel unit and no matter what it costs, a pot is a pot and will fail. > >Some people seem to think that pot problems have some bearing on the > >quality of the wheel unit, this just aint so as you well know :) > There is some relation, Trev. If the wheel shaft is not properly aligned to > the pot shaft then there will be increased pressure on the mechanical > aspects of the pot which will result in a very much reduced lifetime. > The fact that some of your customers have gone 4 years with the same pots > shows how well your shaft alignment can be, but every now and then you may > ship a wheel with slightly less then perfect alignment - or it may get > damaged in transit - resulting in increased wear. > Build quality does have a factor in pot wear but it does have to be said > that this will only show up over the lifetime of several pots. Nothing > whatsoever can be judged by the failure of a single pot! > Cheers, > Richard > -- > We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions > whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

Good point Rich :) We made a change in the design of the TSW several years back where the pot mount was in *** to stop alignment problems, we recently changed to a *** pot drive which completely eliminates any possibility of this happening. We constantly make small changes and improvments whenever we think something may work better, this is why the TSW/TSW2 is still the best value per dollar spent in steering wheel/pedal units and always will be :). BTW I still miss Compuserve and Sportsims :(! Trev

> >BTW I still miss Compuserve and Sportsims :(! > Your involvement is missed too! Any chance of coming back some time soon? > Cheers, > Richard Hey, this sounds interresting, how do I get there ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

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> > Replace your pots. Any pots, regardless of "quality", are a hit and > > miss affair, some seem to work forever, others die quickly. > You understand pots very well :) we have been trying to explain that > they do fail and there is no predicting when, no matter who makes the > wheel unit and no matter what it costs, a pot is a pot and will fail. > >Trev > Of course the guys who spent the price of a new car for thier wheel will > jump up and down and swear that this isnt true but anyone with any > ability to understand what a pot is and how they work knows better >Trev

A word from ECCI about pots. No, a pot is not a pot. Anyone who really understands what pots are and how they work knows that all potentiometers are not created equal. There is no mystery about the failure rate of some pots vs others in a driving system application. A pot is a mechanical and electrical device that must abide by the laws of physics just like everything else. Pots are available at every price level imaginable from .50c to $450 each... yes, $450. What differentiates them is the engineering of the internals for a given application, the quality of their construction, and the resulting performance. Some are designed for kids toys and some are for use in F-16's. Most lower priced pots are engineered for a static situation, such as a set-once-in-a-while audio volume or tone knob application. The use of this kind of pot in a dynamic constant-motion application such as driving controls will result in a high failure rate. The use of cheap general use pots from consumer electronics retailers will also result in frequent failure, because the construction quality is just not there to assure accuracy and long life. Internal construction variables include: bushing material, shaft material, manufacturing tolerances, wiper geometry, wiper material, resistor material, wear characteristics of the resistor surface, etc. ECCI has done LOTS of homework on this topic and uses specially modified potentiomters that are engineered to survive a very long time with high precision in a driving control application. The experiences of most ECCI users describing YEARS of pot life with intense daily use are not chance or fiction. Another major factor in pot failure is the mechanical construction quality of the driving system itself. Side loading on the pot bushing is a very common cause of failure. The causes are different for steering and pedal units: #1 is imprecise lateral alignment of the steering shaft with the pot. ECCI uses precision machined bearing bores with sealed ball bearings for the steering shaft. When the bore is aligned at the factory it will never go out of alignment. The use of a flexible connection can minimize the effect of small side displacements and is needed, even in ECCI units for installation tolerance, but it must not be too flexible, or steering precision will be lost. #2 is axial displacement of the steering shaft. Movement of the steering shaft forwards and aft will cause wiper failure in the pot. ECCI locks the steering shaft so it cannot move axially. The ECCI bearing structure cannot wear over time to cause axial looseness. If the steeering shaft of a wheel moves in ond out AT ALL, you are likely to have problems. #3 is excessive side loading of the pedal pots due to the design of the pedal unit. ECCI pedal units are designed to eliminate torsional and side loads on the pot shaft that cause failure here in many other units. ECCI pedal pots last even longer than the steering pots due to the less frequent motion. The vast majority of ECCI owners have never had a need to change pots at all despite heavy use. Most of the small percentage of units that have needed a replacement were due to two specific problems, each of which was corrected quickly: one batch of defective pots from our supplier in early '97, and a warped connector in mid '97. When the 25 units affected are removed from the statistics, less than five percent of ECCI units shipped since the inception of our company in 1994 have needed replacement pots, a record of which we are proud. There are those out there that will try to sell you less by working hard to convince you it is the same thing. If anyone wishes to know the record of ECCI products, just ask ECCI owners, not those who have something else to sell. Andy Cers ECCI HTTP://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/extreme Move up to true professional quality, move up to ECCI

Blew Trevor away, didn't he. Thats why ECCI blows away TSW also. My ECCI is 2-1/2 years old and still like the day it arrived. As a side note, I just replaced all my pots today w/ECCI pots in my unit because after 2-1/2 years, i could'nt believe they could go much longer and the TSW i had made me walk after 2 months, so whether they needed it or not, i did. Cost $45.00. Well worth it. I went a 50% at mich tonite. Flawless. I also don't get where he says the price of a new car. I think if you add all the options he has to bring it close to what an ECCI has standard, there is about a $100 diff. in the price for the CDS2 and his. And you get 100 times the wheel or more probably. I think Trevor is the one who better get on the stick and try to figure out whats going on, looks like ECCI has. JD

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>> > Replace your pots. Any pots, regardless of "quality", are a hit and >> > miss affair, some seem to work forever, others die quickly. >> You understand pots very well :) we have been trying to explain that >> they do fail and there is no predicting when, no matter who makes the >> wheel unit and no matter what it costs, a pot is a pot and will fail. >> >Trev

I'm not sure what issues Andy Cers and Trevor Thomas have with each other, but for either of them to aim arrows at each other in this newsgroup shows a lack of professionalism on both sides. And then you jump in to kick someone who's already getting beat up over something that's not their fault. Nice move, class act. Bully. The simple issue in the beginning was a guy claiming that TSW pots suck. TSW doesn't make the pots, and even Andy acknowledged that the ECCI had a batch of bad pots from their supplier, so I doubt ECCI makes pots either. So, both vendors are at the mercy of their pot suppliers. You pay more for the ECCI so I'd EXPECT it to be a much better piece of machinery than the others. It better have a best pots on the market for the price. From my understanding the ECCI and the TSW are not aimed for the same market. Thrustmaster wheels are not aimed the same market as either ECCI or TSW. Each product line though is very nice for the target market. They all fill great needs in the racing community and without any one of them we would all be at a loss. In the end, all wheel manufacturers are at the mercy of their pot supplier. And to keep the price of their wheels reasonable for the market they are aimed for leads each company to make decisions on who will be their supplier. It might be unfortunate that one supplier sucks more than another, but that's the facts of doing big business. btw: I don't own either an ECCI or a TSW, I own a Thrustmaster GP1, and it's just like the day I bought it. Robert

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> In the end, all wheel manufacturers are at the mercy of their pot > supplier. And to keep the price of their wheels reasonable for the market > they are aimed for leads each company to make decisions on who will be > their supplier. It might be unfortunate that one supplier sucks more than > another, but that's the facts of doing big business. > btw: I don't own either an ECCI or a TSW, I own a Thrustmaster GP1, and > it's just like the day I bought it. > Robert

Hi Robert, Excellent post and points well made :) this is exactly what I was trying to say, if we wanted to make a device of better quality than the CDS we could and would do so. We feel there is no need for overkill and we dont want people to have to mortgage their house and car to buy a PC game controller, it doesnt make sense. We offer a solid quality product at a fair price and back it with a 100% lifetime warranty, something even the overpriced units dont have the confidence to offer BTW. As for the pot issue, ours are fine, these few failures that get public exposure are a drop in the bucket compared to how many units we sell. There are many 3 year or more old TSWs out there that have never had a pot change. The arrogance of some CDS owners such as Mr White still amazes me but I suppose there has to be some way of justifying having spent far more money than needed for a PC *** device<g>! Trev

>We offer a solid quality product at a fair price and back it with a 100% >lifetime warranty, something even the overpriced units dont have the >confidence to offer BTW. I don't think that confidence is a factor on whether ECCI has a lifetime warranty or not. The quality and precision with which the units are built is second to none and in my opinion a so called "lifetime warranty" is not needed for a product of such quality. A lifetime warranty in my opinion is just a way to market an item. Pots are not designed to be fine, they should be designed for precision applications. As was stated by Andy Ceers, there are many different pots and they are priced accordingly. Is it arrogance or is it extremely satisfied customers. As I recall back when I was interested in purchasing a wheel assembly from Thomas Ent. I was treated with the same kind of arrogance that you describe. Thats when I called ECCI and got the treatment that a paying customer deserves. The point is you get what you pay for and although from what I hear that you make a fine unit, I can't compare to the precision of an ECCI unit. This is just my opinion.

I can attest to 3 months of heavy TSW 2 use with no pot failure. They are rock solid when calibrating them, no more "wiggling" on the axis's (sp?) like my old GP1 did from the start. Apparently ECCI owners aren't married:) Gee hon, I could use a $1000 steering wheel, errrr, OK, you can drop the frying pan now..... Regards, Rick Carlson

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> >Hi Robert, > >Excellent post and points well made :) this is exactly what I was trying > >to say, if we wanted to make a device of better quality than the CDS we > >could and would do so. > >We feel there is no need for overkill and we dont want people to have to > >mortgage their house and car to buy a PC game controller, it doesnt make > >sense. > >We offer a solid quality product at a fair price and back it with a 100% > >lifetime warranty, something even the overpriced units dont have the > >confidence to offer BTW. > >As for the pot issue, ours are fine, these few failures that get public > >exposure are a drop in the bucket compared to how many units we sell. > >There are many 3 year or more old TSWs out there that have never had a > >pot change. > >The arrogance of some CDS owners such as Mr White still amazes me but I > >suppose there has to be some way of justifying having spent far more > >money than needed for a PC *** device<g>! > >Trev > I can attest to 3 months of heavy TSW 2 use with no pot failure. > They are rock solid when calibrating them, no more "wiggling" on the > axis's (sp?) like my old GP1 did from the start. > Apparently ECCI owners aren't married:) Gee hon, I could use a $1000 > steering wheel, errrr, OK, you can drop the frying pan now..... > Regards, > Rick Carlson

Rick, you echo my thoughts exactly<g>! Could you imagine trying to justify to your significant other that you had just spent the price of an entire car on a toy wheel to play on your PC :)! I'd imagine the divorce rate of CDS owners is quite astronomical<g>! Trev

Trevor, When was the last time you saw a decent car for a grand? Thats ironic you should mention the wife factor here, I don't usually ask my wife if I can buy something I want. When I ordered my ECCI in Nov. I was ordering the the 725.00 unit and she noticed that they had a more expensive unit and wondered why I was not getting it. My response was I wasn't sure I wanted to spend that much 1600.00. Her response you know you want it so why not get it? I think that those of you who are married and need to justify your wants to your significant other have just married the wrong person.:-( If you have the bucks and want to play go for it.:-) Everyone has their limitations and should know them. Besides if you have to ask you can't afford it. Unfortunately ECCI had sold out their top of the line units and I had to settle for the mid priced unit anyway. So far there is no question in my mind that the ECCI I bought is the worth every dollar I spent. And I have had not a single problem with it. Now if ECCI or someone else would build a quality motorcycle control setup life would be good.<g> DRK > Rick, you echo my thoughts exactly<g>! Could you imagine trying to > justify to your significant other that you had just spent the price of > an entire car on a toy wheel to play on your PC :)! I'd imagine the > divorce rate of CDS owners is quite astronomical<g>! > Trev

Hey Rick, This one is. And now we see who wears the pants in your house.<g> Besides I've got bigger wrenches than she's got frying pans, so let the war begin.<g> DRK

(snip) (snip) Yep, Andy Cers commented that there are expensive pots, but he didn't tell you that ECCI doesn't use em.:) They charge $45.00 for replacement pots. Subtract the markup and you have a mid range pot. Clarostat sells an excellent linear taper for 60.00 wholesale.. and that's mil-spec'd. If ECCI were in fact receiving "specially modified" pots and then sold them for 45.00 then just imagine how much the unmodified versions must have gone for.LOL. Since the mods done on these do not even translate into the wholesale price of the best quality pot I can find ( 60.00 Clarostat) then the quality, imo is not exactly top of the line.:) I'd certainly like to know the T.O. Number, page , index and figure for any F-16 pot. I can guarantee that those pots do not get a fraction of the use that a sim steering wheel does. I've seen $450.00 pots in Radars, they're huge, just like Cers inferences.<G> Having said all this is not an indication that ECCi doesn't make a good wheel, just that the pot section was, well um, kind of misleading. Their strength, imo lies in the precision of their resistance and pot lockdown hardware. As for me, I'll probably buy a TSW for the exact reasons Trevor states.The ECCI product is, imo really not anything special, nor new technology. Bearings that will never wear out is not impressive considering that a ten-speed bicycle wheel's bearings would last virtually forever in a sim wheel application. That's not to say that ECCI will not continue to create great wheels, just that 1500 dollars is too much for me to pay for this generation of them. True F/F and programmable options may change the way I think about that. As always, this is my opinion, and not in any way a flame. The prices and hardware presented were gathered through Military/Vendor supply catalogs and crosschecked with folks who use the stuff in applications far more demanding than sim racing. In fact, most of the guys think ECCI is laughing all the way to the bank. But then again, they all think I'm nuts for sim racing in the first place.!!:) Best wishes, Greg Avella gavel

> The arrogance of some CDS owners such as Mr White still amazes me but I > suppose there has to be some way of justifying having spent far more > money than needed for a PC *** device<g>! Just as a sort of side note, i've got a Thrustmaster T2 which i've had for 2 years now, and it still works fine:) Broke one spring once, but that was due to something I did, and I have since halved the travel of the pedals and the springs never break now. My bungee has never stretched either, because i don't turn the wheel beyond it's elastic limit. And I've installed a switch in the pedal unit to select split pedals at will, and added two buttons to the wheel for gearshifting. So i've basically got a completely customised wheel for a small cost:) If only i knew enough about machining to make a hand clutch... But I was mainly going to comment on the pots in my T2. I'm guessing their not exactly high price components, since they look cheap, but I clean them once every couple of months, and they have served me well. I just got a PDPI L4 digital gamecard last week and started doing some linearity tests and initially thought the card was not linear... until i realised my pots aren't linear, which happened when i cleaned the steering pot... if you want to test linearness of a pot, clean it first:) Looking at the carbon ring in the pot it's quite worn, but the wear is progressively more closer to the centre position. As the carbon rings wears in a section the resistance at that section goes up, so the net result is that my steering is no longer linear in a over-reactive way, where specific small movement around centre gives a larger relative movement in the computer. This was causing me a lot of difficulty in the GPL demo on full linear setting until I realised that the fairly bell shaped nature of the wear levels on the pot is the same sort of non-linear distribution that most game's "non-linear" settings give, but being over-reactive instead of under-reactive (where a specific turn around centre gives a smaller relative movement in the computer). So, with a bit of testing I was able to verify that using the right amount of non-linear setting in a sim can pretty much cancel out the worn pot effect to give proper linear response. Thus, I can extend the usability of my T2 even more without having to spend a cent on it:) But this is still a comprimise and isn't as good as having a genuine high quality perfectly linear pot. especially with games that have no non-linear settings (like SODA). Trevor, or anyone else out there who is knowledgable i nthis area, is there such a thing as a genuinely perfectly linear pot? most pots seem to have slightly nonlinear response. thanks for managing to read my pointless ramble to the end:) Grant.

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> But this is still a comprimise and isn't as good as having a > genuine high quality perfectly linear pot. especially with games > that have no non-linear settings (like SODA). > Trevor, or anyone else out there who is knowledgable i nthis > area, is there such a thing as a genuinely perfectly linear pot? > most pots seem to have slightly nonlinear response.

The "right" answer to solve the problem once and for all is to go to incremental optical shaft encoders (a digital technology, similar to the optical wheels in mice, only more sensitive). These control devices would be digital-only, so wouldn't be backwards-compatible with analog game ports, but the pricing on components is roughly competitive with top-of-the-line pots, and they're non-contact, so they should last forever. ---Jim