GPL on-line play

will there be free on-line play somewhere? besides with a friend? -- Joe Conklin http://members.xoom.com/gplegends/ remove spam to reply

GPL will come with TCP/IP support, you'll be able to race over the net with up to 8 player for free using an IP address. Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html >will there be free on-line play somewhere? besides with a friend? >-- >Joe Conklin >[link lost in import] >remove spam to reply

>GPL will come with TCP/IP support, you'll be able to race over the net with >up to 8 player for free using an IP address. Errr, care to elaborate? How are eight people going to share an ip address? ;-) Or are you trying to say that there will be a dedicated server mode in gpl, allowing up to eight people to connect? Thanks to papy for adding TCP/IP support, great move iMHO (as opposed to that crappy ipx implementation that comes with F1RS). Cheers, uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

>>GPL will come with TCP/IP support, you'll be able to race over the net with >>up to 8 player for free using an IP address. >Errr, care to elaborate? How are eight people going to share an ip address? >;-) Or are you trying to say that there will be a dedicated server mode in >gpl, allowing up to eight people to connect? FWIK, this is how it works: People decide who will host the race and who will join. The people thats joining will then need to know the IP# of the host. The i guess its just a matter of entering the IP# into the multi-player menu or whatever in GPL and hopefully connect to the host. :) I also seem to remembering hearing something about GPL being able to recive connections over different protocols simultainously (sp?)... in other words: The host could have 3 drivers connecting thru an inhouse LAN-network and maybe 3 people via TCP/IP (i.e. internet) at the same time.. making the total of races to 7 or even more... Im not quite sure as to how many that can acctually join the race tho. All the best, Edwin Solheim REMOVE SPAM-GUARD IN ADDRESS TO REPLY! Check out "The Paddock - a legendary site..." for some cool GPL-stuff!! [http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock)

something like the internet *** zone(maybe by sierra) >will there be free on-line play somewhere? besides with a friend? >-- >Joe Conklin >[link lost in import] >remove spam to reply

Sierra has their own *** zone thingy, called won.net Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

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>something like the internet *** zone(maybe by sierra) >>will there be free on-line play somewhere? besides with a friend? >>-- >>Joe Conklin >>[link lost in import] >>remove spam to reply

If you want to know how well an IP connection can work, check out MTM2 on the Zone. Excellent by any standard. TCP/IP is actually nothing new. I believe F1RS was not allowed to provide TCP/IP racing, but they could of made it work I'm sure. A dedicated server would be best, but would also not be a free service. The only concern I have about GPL's internet racing is that they apparently didn't make it much of a priority in development and the results were poor. Then the beta testers pushed for improvements and from what I hear it is running well. Very good news. I only have so much time for sims, and if GPL or any other sim is poor on the internet, then I won't have much interest in it. On-line racing is what I enjoy most with auto sims and this feature should be as much of a priority as anything else in any new releases. There's no excuse for poor internet play in a sim anymore. If one developer can do it right, they all can and must. Dave DmndDave

i have faith that the guys at papy will pull through and all aspects of the sim will be excelent , unlike other sims(read that how ever you want:) Joe Conklin http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ remove spam to reply <snip>

The GPL TCP/IP and IPX connections work fine in the preview copy I have and I don't think that's brand new either. Personally I'll take smooth network play over jumpy net play any day but that's because I'm spoiled for choice I suppose. I can't understand the assertion that a "dedicated server" would cost money. People run plenty of servers for Quake, Unreal et al without charging for it so why should this be any different. The problem with internet play is that the more complex a sim, the more data needs transferring between machines and the more complicated the code needs to be to get it to work on anything below 56k. M

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>If you want to know how well an IP connection can work, check out MTM2 on >the Zone. Excellent by any standard. TCP/IP is actually nothing new. I >believe F1RS was not allowed to provide TCP/IP racing, but they could of >made it work I'm sure. A dedicated server would be best, but would also not >be a free service. >The only concern I have about GPL's internet racing is that they apparently >didn't make it much of a priority in development and the results were poor. >Then the beta testers pushed for improvements and from what I hear it is >running well. Very good news. I only have so much time for sims, and if GPL >or any other sim is poor on the internet, then I won't have much interest in >it. On-line racing is what I enjoy most with auto sims and this feature >should be as much of a priority as anything else in any new releases. >There's no excuse for poor internet play in a sim anymore. If one developer >can do it right, they all can and must. >Dave >DmndDave >>>Errr, care to elaborate? How are eight people going to share an ip >address? >>;-) Or are you trying to say that there will be a dedicated server mode in >>gpl, allowing up to eight people to connect? >>Thanks to papy for adding TCP/IP support, great move iMHO (as opposed to >>that crappy ipx implementation that comes with F1RS). >>Cheers, >>uwe >>-- >> Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> >>http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 >> Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >> >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

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> I can't understand the assertion that a "dedicated server" would cost money. > People run plenty of servers for Quake, Unreal et al without charging for it > so why should this be any different. > The problem with internet play is that the more complex a sim, the more data > needs transferring between machines and the more complicated the code needs to > be to get it to work on anything below 56k.

In the case of racing sims,which else data needs to be sent more than the cars position in the track.I think the image of the other's car is generated on the receiving computer own .That's a guess,sorry if this was stupid Rafael

Sounds about right to me Rafael! Position and orientation of course. A 3D model makes it a little more complex by adding a 3rd dimension to both orientation and position, but big deal! Besides, bandwidth is rarely the problem, ping is!

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> > I can't understand the assertion that a "dedicated server" would cost money. > > People run plenty of servers for Quake, Unreal et al without charging for it > > so why should this be any different. > > The problem with internet play is that the more complex a sim, the more data > > needs transferring between machines and the more complicated the code needs to > > be to get it to work on anything below 56k. > In the case of racing sims,which else data needs to be sent more than the cars > position in the track.I think the image of the other's car is generated on the > receiving computer own .That's a guess,sorry if this was stupid > Rafael

Okay try this on for size. Paramaters required by a racing sim at connection = setup details, driver details, car choice Paramaters during race = steering, throttle, brake positions, gear, orientation on the track. This is then acted on by the client machines to draw the car correctly. In GPL you can hear the engine note, see the steering and the physical effects of acceleration, braking, changing gear etc on the other cars so this data is needed. This is without the occasional packets of information to tell the machine to raise the drivers arm (in GPL) or set up a pitstop (GP2). This is, as you can imagine a LOT of data. The server has to collect it and send it out to the clients as well as process it's own info. This is why dedicated servers are popular, it removes (at least) one layer of processing from the server. "ping" as you so call it is the time required for a packet of information to be sent to a machine and return. If your PC is using all it's bandwidth for the job it is engaged in the "ping" increases. Admittedly there is also a factor on a) network usage b) "server" load but these are all because of the amount of traffic vs. the amount of bandwidth/processing time available. BTW for the techies out there I *know* that's not the "kosher" explanation but to be honest I don't think people want to read an essay on the cause and effect of inter-networking overload.

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>Sounds about right to me Rafael! Position and orientation of course. A 3D model > makes >it a little more complex by adding a 3rd dimension to both orientation and > position, but >big deal! Besides, bandwidth is rarely the problem, ping is! >> > I can't understand the assertion that a "dedicated server" would cost > money. >> > People run plenty of servers for Quake, Unreal et al without charging for > it >> > so why should this be any different. >> > The problem with internet play is that the more complex a sim, the more > data >> > needs transferring between machines and the more complicated the code needs > to >> > be to get it to work on anything below 56k. >> In the case of racing sims,which else data needs to be sent more than the > cars >> position in the track.I think the image of the other's car is generated on > the >> receiving computer own .That's a guess,sorry if this was stupid >> Rafael

> something like the internet *** zone(maybe by sierra) > >will there be free on-line play somewhere? besides with a friend? Sierra has their own *** zone, and it sucked. Best bet would be if TEN would support it OR if they allowed players to set up servers <a la Quake>. However Sierra <unlike ID> is into money, and doesnt give a hoot about the quality/networkability of games. Just my .02

Of course, id aren't even remotely interested in money.....they operate the business simply to be charitable. > However Sierra <unlike ID> is into money, -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

> Okay try this on for size. > Paramaters required by a racing sim at connection = setup details, driver > details, car choice > Paramaters during race = steering, throttle, brake positions, gear, > orientation on the track. Steering????? Why??????? Throttle - optional Brake positions?????????? Why??????????????? Gear - optional Orientation - of course If these are you guesses, I hope your wrong. If not, the programmers are clueless by the looks of things to me! Way too much unnecessary info here!

Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car would just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not talking about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work would not be acceptable to 90% of people. Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN or the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it.... M

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>> Okay try this on for size. >> Paramaters required by a racing sim at connection = setup details, driver >> details, car choice >> Paramaters during race = steering, throttle, brake positions, gear, >> orientation on the track. > Steering????? Why??????? > Throttle - optional > Brake positions?????????? Why??????????????? > Gear - optional > Orientation - of course > If these are you guesses, I hope your wrong. If not, the programmers are > clueless by >the looks of things to me! Way too much unnecessary info here!

You and some others sound unnecessarily down on internet play in sims today. Even if you have zero interest in MTM2 or the new Motocross Madness, try the demos online. I use a 33.6 modem and the results are excellent. MS improved the performance just in the time between CPR and MTM2. From what I understand, GPL is better than CPR online, and if it's as good as MTM2, there will be great net racing with that as well. I think I speak from some authority as I've had hundreds of online races with these games with people from all over the world. Even races with people with a poor ping rating are often acceptable. If I want to guarantee a smooth race, I just look at the ratings and only include guys with good pings. Then, it's as smooth as a race with the computer cars. Every movement of the opponents vehicles is modeled. Nothing has been left out at all. This is a fairly simple explanation, but apparently some developers have made online racing a priority and have learned how to have the game successfully fill in the gaps between the packets of info that is transferred over the net during a race. This eliminates a lot of the warping effect. I raced POD last summer, and it was good for that time but compared to today, it's a joke. You would see POD cars flying off the road, only to appear a quarter mile down the track ahead of you a few seconds later. Byron and myself know that sim manufacturers CAN provide smooth internet play if they choose to. We also have noticed a kind of coolness by some developers to do so and that's what's bothersome. There's no excuse for that attitude. Even aviation sims are providing online play now. How can racing sims not provide it as well? Auto racing (sports) is all about human competition. Dave DmndDave >Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car would >just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not talking

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>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the >engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc >I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing >simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is >astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate >simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from >their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work

would >not be acceptable to 90% of people. >Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see >the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN or >the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it.... >M

alot of those effects can be handle client side i would think. like the suspension movement you talk about, the server could send the speen and track placement ect. to you and your comp. could figure out the suspension movent etc. Joe Conklin For Central PA Online Gamers: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ For Grand Prix Legends: http://members.xoom.com/gplegends/ remove spam to reply >Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car would >just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not talking

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>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the >engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc >I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing >simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is >astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate >simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from >their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work

would >not be acceptable to 90% of people. >Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see >the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN or >the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it.... >M <snip>

>There's no excuse for that attitude. Ummm.....there is, you know, David. "Economic viability" is the excuse: if only a minority of consumers are buying the product for that feature then it is uneconomical to spend time and resources on the in-house development of that feature. far wiser to spend those resources elsewhere in the "manufacture" of the product. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Well not really... the suspension dip on your road car is a function less of speed more of change in velocity be it braking, accelerating or cornering. The same applies to race cars. The client *does* calculate it but based on the parameters I stated rather than something as simple as a position triplet and velocity. m

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>alot of those effects can be handle client side i would think. like the >suspension movement you talk about, the server could send the speen and >track placement ect. to you and your comp. could figure out the suspension >movent etc. >Joe Conklin >For Central PA Online Gamers: >http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ >For Grand Prix Legends: >http://members.xoom.com/gplegends/ >remove spam to reply >>Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car >would >>just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not >talking >>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the >>engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc >>I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing >>simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is >>astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate >>simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from >>their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work >would >>not be acceptable to 90% of people. >>Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see >>the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN >or >>the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it.... >>M ><snip>

I'm lucky enough to have a LAN connection to the net at work which moves me into the land of LPB's when I play Quake or Quake 2 and, to be honest, I've never had much problem with any racing game over the net because of that. At home where I have a 33.6k connection I never bother with net *** because it's not worth the time and money (1 to 1.7 pence per minute) to play laggy games. That said, I LOVE multiplayer *** and think it's the way forward. I think you'll find that it isn't easy to provide GOOD internet *** otherwise everyone would do it. MS games are good at it (MXM is stunning), but Unreal is the worst I have ever seen. Why? It's not easy. Do we want to wait another 4-6 months for flawless netplay when 90% of the time we'll be playing against the PC? Anyway, the point of my post was to make the issue that there is a lot more data than car position and orientation required to make a sim work right on network play. Later M

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>You and some others sound unnecessarily down on internet play in sims today. >Even if you have zero interest in MTM2 or the new Motocross Madness, try the >demos online. I use a 33.6 modem and the results are excellent. MS improved >the performance just in the time between CPR and MTM2. From what I >understand, GPL is better than CPR online, and if it's as good as MTM2, >there will be great net racing with that as well. I think I speak from some >authority as I've had hundreds of online races with these games with people >from all over the world. Even races with people with a poor ping rating are >often acceptable. If I want to guarantee a smooth race, I just look at the >ratings and only include guys with good pings. Then, it's as smooth as a >race with the computer cars. Every movement of the opponents vehicles is >modeled. Nothing has been left out at all. >This is a fairly simple explanation, but apparently some developers have >made online racing a priority and have learned how to have the game >successfully fill in the gaps between the packets of info that is >transferred over the net during a race. This eliminates a lot of the warping >effect. I raced POD last summer, and it was good for that time but compared >to today, it's a joke. You would see POD cars flying off the road, only to >appear a quarter mile down the track ahead of you a few seconds later. >Byron and myself know that sim manufacturers CAN provide smooth internet >play if they choose to. We also have noticed a kind of coolness by some >developers to do so and that's what's bothersome. There's no excuse for that >attitude. Even aviation sims are providing online play now. How can racing >sims not provide it as well? Auto racing (sports) is all about human >competition. >Dave >DmndDave >>Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car >would >>just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not >talking >>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the >>engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc >>I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing >>simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is >>astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate >>simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from >>their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work >would >>not be acceptable to 90% of people. >>Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see >>the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN >or >>the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it.... >>M

So the orientation of your opponent's wheels can be seen while steering. Not if you want to be able to hear his engine. This is important from positional aspect, and also for atmosphere. To show lockups, generate appropriate level of smoke, skidding etc. Means no gears in the replay. Not at all, in fact if you are looking at a _serious_ sim then you need more. There's a difference between what is required for a real simulation and what is required for a game - that's not intended to be disparaging, just an observation of fact. How can you know how much draft you're going to get unless you know my setup and thus can generate how big a hole I'm making in the air? In a game you approximate this and it's not a problem, but in a sim it is, at least of you want to do it correctly. Cheers! John

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:25:42 -0400, "David G Fisher" >This is a fairly simple explanation, but apparently some developers have >made online racing a priority and have learned how to have the game >successfully fill in the gaps between the packets of info that is >transferred over the net during a race. This eliminates a lot of the warping >effect. It does, but at a cost. Let's say we're both exiting Parabolica and you want to draft me all the way up Retifilio and make the pass into Curva Grande - I will jink side to side to keep you out of the draft as much as I can, but with warping and a computer filling in the gaps you don't know where I am - at 200mph that is not good. You pull out to pass, my position is updated, and we both crash. It is a very fine art to this, and whereas a Quake pushlatency will be lost in the melee, a race between two good drivers will likely be settled by one moment, one moment where you really, really need to know where everything is. The balance between absorbing latency problems and providing accurate update is very delicate. IMO it's often better to know that there may be a problem (and back off accordingly) than be lulled into a false sense of security and ruin everyone's race. MTM2 seems to have it pretty good, the latency control was one of it's finest aspects IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of aviation sims don't model plane to plane collisions for the very reasons described above - if heading adjustments are acted upon immediately in a head to head the planes will surely crash, and that can't be guaranteed. That would be a ludicrous solution in auto-sims, being able to drive through someone lowers the challenge enormously. Cheers! John

You raise some good points, but OTOH I still question their *necessity*. If the difference between *all* of this information and just the *necessary* stuff is the difference between unplayable and playable multiplay then I still think my point stands. It seems your point is that you want it all or you want nothing! Btw, I doubt you would be in a 90% majority here.

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> Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car would > just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not talking > about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the > engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc > I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing > simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is > astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate > simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from > their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work would > not be acceptable to 90% of people. > Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see > the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN or > the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it.... > M > >> Okay try this on for size. > >> Paramaters required by a racing sim at connection = setup details, driver > >> details, car choice > >> Paramaters during race = steering, throttle, brake positions, gear, > >> orientation on the track. > > Steering????? Why??????? > > Throttle - optional > > Brake positions?????????? Why??????????????? > > Gear - optional > > Orientation - of course > > If these are you guesses, I hope your wrong. If not, the programmers are > > clueless by > >the looks of things to me! Way too much unnecessary info here!

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> >There's no excuse for that > attitude. > Ummm.....there is, you know, David. > "Economic viability" is the excuse: if only a minority of consumers are > buying the product for that feature then it is uneconomical to spend > time and resources on the in-house development of that feature. far > wiser to spend those resources elsewhere in the "manufacture" of the > product. > --

I still say Bruce that you can talk as many statistics as you like, and I will link the results to the consumers knowledge that online sim racing is currently a joke outside of NROS. The buzz created by a good online sim racing game could change the results of a survey in a flash ie people coming to the party when they hear the news. It's a matter of when does the catalyst appear!

> > Steering????? Why??????? > So the orientation of your opponent's wheels can be seen while > steering. Host computer? (Like a shopping trolley - ie the wheels point where they're pushed) Host computer? (Acceleration measurement) Well, I doubt using brake positions would be efficient for doing this. More like a parameter for each corner, only sent when applicable ie not rolling smoothly. Transfer all opponents gear ratios before race? Or maybe entire setup?

Why is it that a positional and orientational triplet is insufficient to deal with susp travels? Btw, how did we get into this anyway. Ping is the issue, not bandwidth. I dare say, completely ignorant as I am to packet sizes, that all of the info anyone could want could be contained in a single packet anyway! Yes or no?

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> Well not really... the suspension dip on your road car is a function less of > speed more of change in velocity be it braking, accelerating or cornering. The > same applies to race cars. > The client *does* calculate it but based on the parameters I stated rather > than something as simple as a position triplet and velocity. > m > >alot of those effects can be handle client side i would think. like the > >suspension movement you talk about, the server could send the speen and > >track placement ect. to you and your comp. could figure out the suspension > >movent etc. > >Joe Conklin > >For Central PA Online Gamers: > >http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ > >For Grand Prix Legends: > >http://members.xoom.com/gplegends/ > >remove spam to reply > >>Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car > >would > >>just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not > >talking > >>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the > >>engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc > >>I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing > >>simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is > >>astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate > >>simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from > >>their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work > >would > >>not be acceptable to 90% of people. > >>Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see > >>the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN > >or > >>the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it.... > >>M > ><snip>

Believe me, in GPL you are rarely travelling where your wheels are pointing... This varies depending upon gearing, uphill/downhill, fuel weight, clutch engaged or not and a host of other things. So you need to send the rotational speed of each wheel, same result. Doesn't help. You squeeze every last rev out of your engine whereas I shift up 2k early to avoid damage and lower fuel consumption. Different shifting points despite same gearing. Like I said, you can either approximate it or you can do it right. One involves compromises, the other bandwidth issues. There is no shortcut, you just weigh it up and set the balance as you see ift. Cheers! John

> Why is it that a positional and orientational triplet is insufficient to deal with susp > travels? > Btw, how did we get into this anyway. Ping is the issue, not bandwidth. I dare say, > completely ignorant as I am to packet sizes, that all of the info anyone could want could > be contained in a single packet anyway! Yes or no? Think so, no large amount of data in there Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

No sim will be even close to reality even if in the future we have good feedback seats and real 3d vision(things like lasers sending a 3d images directly to your retine).The point is ,it's a game and and i think that most of psycological aspects of motorsports comes from the fact that's it's very very life(or at least ,injure) risky. So ,what are the risks when you're playing on your pc for hours?No chance for a single cut(unless your wife throws a can on you ,asking you for goto bed or giving her the computer to play freecell(mine does play,but doesn't throw :)). If not ,soon we'll be asking the developers (in the name of realism)to not give us saving features for setups ,hotlaps,etc ,accerated time in qualifying(will GPL have it ,or will we have to sit and watch the whole thing?),wait the real time it lasts to change your gearing setup ,for example, and option for only 100% races. It sound ridiculous, and in fact it is ,and these above will never be implemented,Because it's only a game. Rafael

Statistics provide one irrefutable fact....that 100% of surveys give 100% statistics! But you are overlooking the fact, in your wholesome enthusiasm for on-line ***, that to the vast majority of software buyers, it will be something that they haven't the slightest interest in. And that *IS* as fact!! :o) > I still say Bruce that you can talk as many statistics as you like, and I will link the > results to the consumers knowledge that online sim racing is currently a joke outside of > NROS. The buzz created by a good online sim racing game could change the results of a > survey in a flash ie people coming to the party when they hear the news. It's a matter of > when does the catalyst appear! -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

> No sim will be even close to reality... <anip>... > i think that most of psycological aspects of motorsports comes > from the fact that's it's very very life(or at least ,injure) risky. > So ,what are the risks when you're playing on your pc for hours? I get eye strain... does that count? ;-) Later... Andre

LOL, how did that feel, Byron, being lectured like that :o))). /Christer, really believes car position and orientation should be enough, but what do I know :o))) -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)) > Okay try this on for size. > Paramaters required by a racing sim at connection = setup details, driver > details, car choice > Paramaters during race = steering, throttle, brake positions, gear, > orientation on the track. > This is then acted on by the client machines to draw the car correctly. In GPL > you can hear the engine note, see the steering and the physical effects of > acceleration, braking, changing gear etc on the other cars so this data is > needed. This is without the occasional packets of information to tell the > machine to raise the drivers arm (in GPL) or set up a pitstop (GP2). This is, > as you can imagine a LOT of data. The server has to collect it and send it out > to the clients as well as process it's own info. This is why dedicated servers > are popular, it removes (at least) one layer of processing from the server. > "ping" as you so call it is the time required for a packet of information to > be sent to a machine and return. If your PC is using all it's bandwidth for > the job it is engaged in the "ping" increases. Admittedly there is also a > factor on a) network usage b) "server" load but these are all because of the > amount of traffic vs. the amount of bandwidth/processing time available. > BTW for the techies out there I *know* that's not the "kosher" explanation but > to be honest I don't think people want to read an essay on the cause and > effect of inter-networking overload. > >Sounds about right to me Rafael! Position and orientation of course. A 3D model > > makes > >it a little more complex by adding a 3rd dimension to both orientation and > > position, but > >big deal! Besides, bandwidth is rarely the problem, ping is! > >> > I can't understand the assertion that a "dedicated server" would cost > > money. > >> > People run plenty of servers for Quake, Unreal et al without charging for > > it > >> > so why should this be any different. > >> > The problem with internet play is that the more complex a sim, the more > > data > >> > needs transferring between machines and the more complicated the code needs > > to > >> > be to get it to work on anything below 56k. > >> In the case of racing sims,which else data needs to be sent more than the > > cars > >> position in the track.I think the image of the other's car is generated on > > the > >> receiving computer own .That's a guess,sorry if this was stupid > >> Rafael

I dont think you believe that the high pulse the F1 drivers has on the grid just before the start is because of the high risks in F1. I believe you could get the same high pulse before an indoor kart race. I believe it's in the amount of time spent preparing. The more time you have put into preparing a race the more you want that race to go well and there you have true pressure and a high pulse. I have felt that high pulse before sim races in offline league races. The reason for this, as I understand it, is because I have practiced a lot for the race and now I only have one shot at the race and that's spelled pressure :o). I bet a lot of NROS drivers can tell you some stories about high pulse, pressure and sweating :o). /Christer

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> The point > is ,it's a game and and i think that most of psycological aspects of motorsports comes > from the fact that's it's very very life(or at least ,injure) risky. > Rafael > > Like I said, you can either approximate it or you can do it right. One > > involves compromises, the other bandwidth issues. There is no > > shortcut, you just weigh it up and set the balance as you see ift. > > Cheers! > > John

-- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o) )

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> Statistics provide one irrefutable fact....that 100% of surveys give > 100% statistics! > But you are overlooking the fact, in your wholesome enthusiasm for > on-line ***, that to the vast majority of software buyers, it will be > something that they haven't the slightest interest in. > And that *IS* as fact!! :o)

For now, maybe! :)

> LOL, how did that feel, Byron, being lectured like that :o))). > /Christer, really believes car position and orientation should be enough, but > what do I know :o))) > -- Great, since it was educational :) As I just said elsewhere though, I dunno how we got into this because it is a bandwidth thing rather than the critical ping aspect.

Nothing....just the new circuit.

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> > No sim will be even close to reality... <anip>... > > i think that most of psycological aspects of motorsports comes > > from the fact that's it's very very life(or at least ,injure) risky. > > So ,what are the risks when you're playing on your pc for hours? > I get eye strain... does that count? ;-) > Later... > Andre

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Jesus, Byron.....*EVERYTHING* is just "for now", mate!! :o) > For now, maybe! :) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>features for setups ,hotlaps,etc ,accerated time in qualifying(will GPL have it ,or will >we have to sit and watch the whole thing?),wait the real time it lasts to change your >gearing setup ,for example, and option for only 100% races. > It sound ridiculous, and in fact it is ,and these above will never be >implemented,Because it's only a game. >Rafael Actually that's given me an idea . How about when qualifying if you decide to change the car setup, during the time in the garage you lose say 5 to 10 minutes for simple changes, or 10 -20 minutes for more drastic changes. Also if you wreck the car in an accident , depending on whereabouts on the circuit you crash you lose more time due to the walk / run back to the pits , and hopefully the spare car is setup for you and not your team mate. If you were then to go out and wreck the spare maybe you wouldn't qualify for the race (or further back on the grid) . The single spare car idea may cause some arguments for online racing, if both driver's in a team wreck their own race cars:-) Ian P

Wont it always be an approximation? /Christer -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)) > Like I said, you can either approximate it or you can do it right. One > involves compromises, the other bandwidth issues. There is no > shortcut, you just weigh it up and set the balance as you see ift. > Cheers! > John

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:21:23 GMT, Christer Andersson >Wont it always be an approximation? To all intents and purposes uyes, but not necessarily. When playing Quake online I used to use an office connection to the UK's SuperJANET, which gave ping times of 12ms - that is as close to real time as makes no difference and therefore not an approximation. As ping time increases you can either plot only when a packet succesfully arrives, or you can extrapolate in one way or another until you get the information and then update the position instantly or via some smoothing transition. Whichever way you choose will be an approximation, but how much of an approximation depends upon connection quality and how you program the code to handle such instances. Which way programmers should be headed depends upon their thoughts on what is "real" racing or not, and whether the internet can in future provide suitable latency for racing (or whether software companies need to be coding to take account of long term deficiencies). I think the latency will improve and I also prefer knowing where my opponent actually is, so I err toward less approximation. Cheers! John

My point was not "all or nothing" but what is acceptable and what is prefereable. I know there has to be a balance between the two but to be honest, why can't a programmer manage to send the required info? Okay, you have to set a minimum connection speed but if that is 33.6k or 56k then fine. Most people are happy to splash out on a 3d card or whatever but are a little less keen to spend a little extra on a faster modem. The point I'm making is that whatever complexity the sim takes, any multiplayer form of the sim HAS to support the same otherwise you have 2 games. This is great for Quake and QuakeWorld as people can pick the option best suited to them (either NetQuake or QW) when playing online but I can't see any racing sim company moving to provide 2 choices in online play technology if only because of the complexity and expense. id develop QW for free and have just released the last version after working on it for God knows how long (18-24 months?). M

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>You raise some good points, but OTOH I still question their *necessity*. If the >difference between *all* of this information and just the *necessary* stuff is > the >difference between unplayable and playable multiplay then I still think my > point stands. >It seems your point is that you want it all or you want nothing! Btw, I doubt > you would be >in a 90% majority here.