Monaco RS2 really is F1RS v. 1.1

I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right. By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track from the 98 season for free. Summary: Menus: as annoying as ever. Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run the demo. Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me except the replacement of real ads with fake ones. Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category, which would be unacceptable. Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell. AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been improved. Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1. I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth a full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more money than sense. For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly quickly. Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will do so much work is another question. In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft had a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat laughable side-step. Marc. -- **************************************************************************** Marc Collins "Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine." ****************************************************************************

Exactly what I was thinking, F1RS2 appears to be nothing more than all the things F1RS should have been in the first place, but without the proper teams and sponsors. I paid $49.99 for F1RS earlier this year, and I would be agreeable with a $15.00 upgrade price, but I will not pay another $49.99 for this. If there is no offer to upgrade those who paid full price for F1RS, I will get it without paying. So Ubisoft, the choice is yours, take my $15.00, or get nothing, it's up to you.

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> I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that > F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After > playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right. > By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track > from the 98 season for free. > Summary: > Menus: as annoying as ever. > Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved > YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run the > demo. > Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem > as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me > except the replacement of real ads with fake ones. > Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original > was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category, which > would be unacceptable. > Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been > improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power > applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the > ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address > the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism > of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell. > AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been > improved. > Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The > new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and > racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1. > I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft > provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth a > full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more money > than sense. > For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming > the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly quickly. > Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will do > so much work is another question. > In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft had > a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the > next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat laughable > side-step. > Marc. > -- > **************************************************************************** > Marc Collins > "Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine." > ****************************************************************************

Marc, These are very reckless comments on your part. Remember, that you are looking at a DEMO here. There are a lot of subtle differences that you have missed, but that is not the point, the demo of F1RS was a very poor imitation of the full game, so MGP will be the same. Go to www.f1racingsim.com to see a review of the latest beta from someone who knows what they are talking about. It really is very silly to make these instant judgements on what should be a big improvement on the best F1 sim out there. Iain

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>I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that >F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After >playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right. >By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track >from the 98 season for free. >Summary: >Menus: as annoying as ever. >Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved >YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run the >demo. >Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem >as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me >except the replacement of real ads with fake ones. >Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original >was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category, which >would be unacceptable. >Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been >improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power >applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the >ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address >the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism >of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell. >AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been >improved. >Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The >new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and >racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1. >I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft >provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth

a >full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more money >than sense. >For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming >the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly quickly. >Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will do >so much work is another question. >In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft had

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>a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the >next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat laughable >side-step. >Marc. >-- >***************************************************************************

* >Marc Collins >"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine." >*************************************************************************** *

Man you guys are such losers. I did not see anybody complain when Gp2 was released. It could also be viewed as World Circuit Version 1.1., which didn't have rain, and still had terrible graphics. Remember the invisible pit wall in Australia? How the hell can you call MGP version 1.1 of F1RS, when Ubisoft patched the original ~ 6 times???? Now refresh my memeory, how many times has Microprose patched GP2??? We have only seen 1/10th of the full game, without the scenario and career modes which are completely new, not to mention the retro mode, yet you guys still complain. Somehow I have a feeling that if Crammond releases another simulation that is poorly coded, you guys will hail it as the best thing since sliced bread. No matter what Ubisoft does, or they intensely they support their products, there is just no pleasing some people. So do us all a favour, and don't buy the %%$$ game. Your negativity is not needed.

>Summary: >Menus: as annoying as ever. At least in the demo they are MUCH quicker. Also, the tracks load much quicker. I don't think the sole fact that the layout and look is the same makes them 'annoying as ever.' Their speed has increased and that makes them much more functional. Fair enough. I was running in Direct3d and could never get the Monaco track to run reliably with the TV screens working. This is now fixed. Also, look at Austria. The graphics are positively stunning. Theres little to be desired from this aspect of the demo. This was and is the weak point of both F1RS and MGPRS. But, it has improved more than 10%. The sound in the demo is far more sensitive and responsive to driver input. From the screeching tires that now give the racer enough feedback to KNOW you're driving on the edge, to the engine sound which sounds better than F1RS but which still has a synthesized quality to it, this aspect has greatly increased the feel of the car. Yes the engine sound and gear box could use some real samples to take this game to the next level. But if you listen to the in-car footage from a F1 telecast (of the Williams in particular) the engine sound isn't that far from the mark from the drivers perspective. It still has a very plastic quality to it and that could definitely be improved. I disagree. The physics have been greatly improved in that you can now control a spin much more easily than in F1RS. This combined with the sound makes it much easier to drive on the edge without fear of loosing grip and going into an uncontrollable spin. Now you know you have a good chance of saving it which is much more realistic. One thing I will agree on, the interaction between two cars when they touch has taken a step down from F1RS. On a few occasions I bumped wheels with an AI car and the collision caused the corner of the AI car to bounce a foot off the ground. This however did not seem to cause much of a problem as the AI car regained control very quickly and unrealistically. A real F1 car would be in the gravel in seconds after that kind of contact. In this respect, there was an almost arcade quality to the physics. Perhaps if damage was set to Realistic instead of Intermediate as it is in the demo? Still, I can't recall seeing anything like the collision physics in Intermediate damage in F1RS as there is in the demo. With only seven laps it was hard to tell. Especially since there was a fictional lineup, we can't compare the driving styles of the F1RS Alesi (for example) to the MGPRS implementation. Still some cars did seem more agressive than others, so there is still hope for a realistic recreation of F1 driver personalities once the users are able to put in the driver's names. Call it F1RS 1.1, MGPRS or whatever. Judging from this demo, I believe this game will once again raise the state of the art in racing sims. $10 to $15? I got so much enjoyment driving at Austria with the demo that I'd have no problem paying $50 for the new game. For me the top priority is driving feel and that has been improved enough to justify $50 by itself. As far as being willing to spend more than $15 meaning that I have more money than sense, your way off base. Unlike you, I get a great deal of enjoyment from driving a really good sim. If I look back at all of the hours I've played GP2 or F1RS, the cost of $50 is almost trivial. I'll spend $50 and get many more hours of enjoyment from not only rediscovering the existing tracks with the new graphics, AI, and physics, but I'll have the career mode and the new implementation of on-line play to enjoy. If all this is worth to you is $10 or $15, racing sims must either be a trivial passtime or you must have the earning capacity of a rickshaw driver. Bottom line: Judging from the demo, is the new version a significant overall improvement? Yes. Is there room for further improvement? Yes. Is it worth the cost of buying the product all over again to get these improvements? For any real fan of racing sims, Yes.

I think you'll find that is precisely what I was saying! No complaints from me whatsoever, I'm desparately looking forward to MGP. It's unfounded negative comments from people like Marc Collins that really get to me, but of course it gets to you to! By the way, Ubi patched F1RS nine times not six. the fact that GP2 was not patched was a great disappointment to a lot of people, and it is a credit to Ubi that they are prepared to support their product long after release. Iain >Man you guys are such losers. I did not see anybody complain when Gp2 was >released. It could also be viewed as World Circuit Version 1.1., which didn't >have rain, and still had terrible graphics. Remember the invisible pit wall in

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>Australia? >How the hell can you call MGP version 1.1 of F1RS, when Ubisoft patched the >original ~ 6 times???? >Now refresh my memeory, how many times has Microprose >patched GP2??? >We have only seen 1/10th of the full game, without the scenario and career >modes which are completely new, not to mention the retro mode, yet you guys >still complain. >Somehow I have a feeling that if Crammond releases another simulation that

is

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>poorly coded, you guys will hail it as the best thing since sliced bread. >No matter what Ubisoft does, or they intensely they support their products, >there is just no pleasing some people. >So do us all a favour, and don't buy the %%$$ game. Your >negativity is not needed.

The comments are not reckless at all. I hope that you are right that the final version is vastly improved over the demo...but then is UbiSoft so stupid that they haven't learned their lesson about releasing demos that don't reflect the final product. I thought we all had enough of that with F1RS. Compare the new demo to driving with a well-balanced set-up (one of Guy Cote's, for example) on F1RS--there is almost no difference other than the increased grip and throttle response--neither of which requires any change to the physics model. They could patch those two things into F1RS easily. Demos are adverti***ts. Why would I want to upgrade from F1RS based on this demo.? If I have to read (typically biased) evaluations from fans on fan-based web sites to get a true sense of what the new sim. will be like, everyone at UbiSoft responsible for the demo and the release of the demo should be fired immediately. Marc.

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>Marc, >These are very reckless comments on your part. Remember, that you are >looking at a DEMO here. There are a lot of subtle differences that you have >missed, but that is not the point, the demo of F1RS was a very poor >imitation of the full game, so MGP will be the same. Go to >www.f1racingsim.com to see a review of the latest beta from someone who >knows what they are talking about. >It really is very silly to make these instant judgements on what should be

a

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>big improvement on the best F1 sim out there. >Iain >>I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that >>F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After >>playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right. >>By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track >>from the 98 season for free. >>Summary: >>Menus: as annoying as ever. >>Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved >>YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run

the

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>>demo. >>Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem >>as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me >>except the replacement of real ads with fake ones. >>Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original >>was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category,

which

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>>would be unacceptable. >>Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been >>improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power >>applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the >>ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address >>the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism >>of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell. >>AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been >>improved. >>Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The >>new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and >>racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1. >>I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft >>provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth >a >>full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more

money

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>>than sense. >>For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming >>the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly >quickly. >>Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will >do >>so much work is another question. >>In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft >had >>a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the >>next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat

laughable >>side-step. >>Marc. >>-- >>************************************************************************** * >* >>Marc Collins >>"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine." >>************************************************************************** * >*

I think you'll find quite a lot of differences Marc, particularly in the way that the other cars behave, the fluidity of the framerate, the speed of the menus, track loading, etc. etc. It is impossible to guage the driving performance until we see the final version because of setups etc. An unrepresentative demo of F1RS didn't do Ubi any harm at all - F1RS was one of the biggest selling sims in the history of PCs! Just please stop moaning, and wait for the full product in all its 1024x768 glory! Iain >The comments are not reckless at all. >I hope that you are right that the final version is vastly improved over the

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>demo...but then is UbiSoft so stupid that they haven't learned their lesson >about releasing demos that don't reflect the final product. I thought we >all had enough of that with F1RS. >Compare the new demo to driving with a well-balanced set-up (one of Guy >Cote's, for example) on F1RS--there is almost no difference other than the >increased grip and throttle response--neither of which requires any change >to the physics model. They could patch those two things into F1RS easily. >Demos are adverti***ts. Why would I want to upgrade from F1RS based on >this demo.? If I have to read (typically biased) evaluations from fans on >fan-based web sites to get a true sense of what the new sim. will be like, >everyone at UbiSoft responsible for the demo and the release of the demo >should be fired immediately. >Marc. >>Marc, >>These are very reckless comments on your part. Remember, that you are >>looking at a DEMO here. There are a lot of subtle differences that you

have

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>>missed, but that is not the point, the demo of F1RS was a very poor >>imitation of the full game, so MGP will be the same. Go to >>www.f1racingsim.com to see a review of the latest beta from someone who >>knows what they are talking about. >>It really is very silly to make these instant judgements on what should be >a >>big improvement on the best F1 sim out there. >>Iain >>>I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that >>>F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After >>>playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right. >>>By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing

track

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>>>from the 98 season for free. >>>Summary: >>>Menus: as annoying as ever. >>>Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved >>>YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run >the >>>demo. >>>Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a

problem >>>as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me >>>except the replacement of real ads with fake ones. >>>Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original

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>>>was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category, >which >>>would be unacceptable. >>>Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been >>>improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power >>>applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the >>>ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address >>>the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the

realism

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>>>of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell. >>>AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been >>>improved. >>>Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The >>>new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and >>>racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1. >>>I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft >>>provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is

worth >>a >>>full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more >money >>>than sense. >>>For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming

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>>>the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly >>quickly. >>>Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will >>do >>>so much work is another question. >>>In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft >>had >>>a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with

the

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>>>next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat >laughable >>>side-step. >>>Marc. >>>-- >>>*************************************************************************

*

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>* >>* >>>Marc Collins >>>"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine." >>>*************************************************************************

* >* >>*

Well, you seem to be getting a lot of negative comments here, Marc, but I'm with you on the 'upgrade' idea. So long as the game is 75% recycled, it would seem that giving it a facelift would be less difficult (expensive) than starting over. Ubisoft is to be credited for keeping a successful title up to date but for those who have already paid for the game's development once, shouldn't they now have the option of just paying for the additional work done to it since then? I think the attitude that "I love sims so much it's worth it to me" is too generous. I don't expect to be gouged when buying water, even though I can't live without it! rob. <snip> <snip> >Marc. >-- >*************************************************************************** * >Marc Collins >"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine." >*************************************************************************** *

I agree ===>100%<=== !!!!!!!!! Great post.......I think it`s time the people that buy the 1st ver (that allows for a 2nd ver) get rewarded in some way.... Instead of getting a slap in the face. Lorne

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>I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that >F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After >playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right. >By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track >from the 98 season for free. >Summary: >Menus: as annoying as ever. >Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved >YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run the >demo. >Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem >as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me >except the replacement of real ads with fake ones. >Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original >was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category, which >would be unacceptable. >Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been >improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power >applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the >ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address >the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism >of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell. >AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been >improved. >Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The >new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and >racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1. >I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft >provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth

a >full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more money >than sense. >For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming >the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly quickly. >Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will do >so much work is another question. >In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft had

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>a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the >next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat laughable >side-step. >Marc. >-- >***************************************************************************

* >Marc Collins >"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine." >*************************************************************************** *

Having spent some time with the demo, I'd have to agree with Marc. It IS an improvement, but certainly nothing beyond patch-level. The driving model is still sorely lacking, IMO. There always seems to be some slight disconnect between my inputs and what the car is doing. It's not a matter of hardware or framerate; that's fine. The car just makes odd movements all on its own, like randomly side-stepping a bit in mid-straightaway. It's enough to give me a headache, as my brain is looking for one thing and seeing another. Anyone else noticed this? I haven't seen this in ANY other sim, and I've got most of 'em. Also, the spin routines are still the canned, unrealistic ones from F1RS, though toned down a bit. And it still can't reconcile the different calibration values between my TM GP1 and CH pedals, a fault shared by NO other sim I use. I have to shut down, disconnect the pedals, reconfigure for the GP1 alone to run either F1RS or the MGPRS demo. As for paying full price for MGPRS, it's may be closer to being worth it if you didn't buy F1RS, but if so, you won't be getting much for your bucks, except the pleasure of being able to trashcan that bug-infested beast. I've never been able to get F1RS to the point that I wanted to spend any time with it, though I've wasted a lot of time tweaking it, mostly in vain. I've remained puzzled about the following it's attracted. As for me, give me old graphics and the better functioning and gameplay of GP2 or ICR2. The graphics of the UBI games, while smooth and detailed, are too cartoonish anyway, with all objects, both near and far, in equal focus, which makes no sense. As for all the patches, I'd say that was a matter of necessity. If UBI hadn't offered them, who'd still be bothering with F1RS, much less considering buying another UBI sim? But hey, it works for Microsoft. BTW, has anyone considered the effect of using fictitious teams, sponsors, etc., on UBI's cost of producing the game? No licensing fees to pay, eh? And they still want us to cough up the full ticket. Maybe NOT. Makes you wonder, though; has someone else arranged exclusive rights to those names for '99? Hmmmmmmm. Food for thought.

Again I say - WAIT FOR THE FULL VERSION. It is very different from the demo. Look at the informed review of the latest beta on www.f1racingsim.com for a more reasonable view here. What amazes me about all you guys moaning on about paying full price is that we are talking about 29 ($45) here! That is about the cost of going to a medium concert or a football match on a Saturday, and they last for 2 hours at most! F1RS and other sims give months (if not years) of pleasure, so they are pretty good value, don't you think? Iain > Having spent some time with the demo, I'd have to agree with Marc. It IS >an improvement, but certainly nothing beyond patch-level. The driving model is >still sorely lacking, IMO. There always seems to be some slight disconnect >between my inputs and what the car is doing. It's not a matter of hardware or >framerate; that's fine. The car just makes odd movements all on its own, like >randomly side-stepping a bit in mid-straightaway. It's enough to give me a >headache, as my brain is looking for one thing and seeing another. Anyone else >noticed this? I haven't seen this in ANY other sim, and I've got most of 'em. >Also, the spin routines are still the canned, unrealistic ones from F1RS, >though toned down a bit. And it still can't reconcile the different >calibration values between my TM GP1 and CH pedals, a fault shared by NO other >sim I use. I have to shut down, disconnect the pedals, reconfigure for the GP1 >alone to run either F1RS or the MGPRS demo. > As for paying full price for MGPRS, it's may be closer to being worth it if >you didn't buy F1RS, but if so, you won't be getting much for your bucks, >except the pleasure of being able to trashcan that bug-infested beast. I've >never been able to get F1RS to the point that I wanted to spend any time with >it, though I've wasted a lot of time tweaking it, mostly in vain. I've >remained puzzled about the following it's attracted. As for me, give me old >graphics and the better functioning and gameplay of GP2 or ICR2. The graphics >of the UBI games, while smooth and detailed, are too cartoonish anyway, with >all objects, both near and far, in equal focus, which makes no sense. As for >all the patches, I'd say that was a matter of necessity. If UBI hadn't offered >them, who'd still be bothering with F1RS, much less considering buying another >UBI sim? But hey, it works for Microsoft. > BTW, has anyone considered the effect of using fictitious teams, sponsors, >etc., on UBI's cost of producing the game? No licensing fees to pay, eh? And >they still want us to cough up the full ticket. Maybe NOT. Makes you wonder, >though; has someone else arranged exclusive rights to those names for '99? >Hmmmmmmm. Food for thought.

I really have to agree with you. The moaning about this small amount of money is getting on my nerves. For me there are enough reasons to buy the new version. The GP of Austria gave me some really exciting hours. I think this will be a very good simulation. Hermann Kauer. On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:30:36 +0100, "Iain Mackenzie"

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>Again I say - WAIT FOR THE FULL VERSION. It is very different from the demo. >Look at the informed review of the latest beta on www.f1racingsim.com for a >more reasonable view here. >What amazes me about all you guys moaning on about paying full price is that >we are talking about 29 ($45) here! That is about the cost of going to a >medium concert or a football match on a Saturday, and they last for 2 hours >at most! F1RS and other sims give months (if not years) of pleasure, so they >are pretty good value, don't you think? >Iain

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> Having spent some time with the demo, I'd have to agree with Marc. It IS > an improvement, but certainly nothing beyond patch-level. The driving model is > still sorely lacking, IMO. There always seems to be some slight disconnect > between my inputs and what the car is doing. It's not a matter of hardware or > framerate; that's fine. The car just makes odd movements all on its own, like > randomly side-stepping a bit in mid-straightaway. It's enough to give me a > headache, as my brain is looking for one thing and seeing another. Anyone else

Hmm, then I have a hardware problem, because on my system it's running perfectly straight on the straighaway...did you remove the deadzone? l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> I really have to agree with you. The moaning about this small amount > of money is getting on my nerves. For me there are enough reasons to > buy the new version. The GP of Austria gave me some really exciting > hours. > I think this will be a very good simulation. > Hermann Kauer. I think, it's just amazing how confused people are about the meaning of the word "patch". There are NO features covered by it, just bugs. So even a physics model of less than GPL-standard (the reference now) is not a bug, but a missing feature, which is included in a new version. l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> I really have to agree with you. The moaning about this small amount > of money is getting on my nerves. For me there are enough reasons to > buy the new version. The GP of Austria gave me some really exciting > hours. > I think this will be a very good simulation. > Hermann Kauer. >I think, it's just amazing how confused people are about the meaning >of the word "patch". There are NO features covered by it, just bugs. >So even a physics model of less than GPL-standard (the reference now) >is not a bug, but a missing feature, which is included in a new version. >l8er >ronny

True enough, people, it's not the national debt we're talking about, but that's not really the point. The point is the RELATIVE value offered by the two products. Nobody's telling anyone what to do with their OWN money here. Whatever the weaknesses of MGPRS, if it's simply lacking the bugs of F1RS, it'll be a better product due to the lack of aggravation. I suppose I'm a bit jaundiced by my disappointment with all the bugs, and resulting need for patches, in F1RS. I tried ALL the known tricks to sort it out, from patches to deadzone to hardware, but never was happy with it. The primary experience was one of frustration and displeasure, rather than enjoyment. As for the meaning of "patches", I seem to remember UBI adding support for force feedback and 3D sound among the "bug" fixes, and Microsoft's "patch" of CPR certainly went far beyond that, into new menu items, altered AI, and the like. I'd personally have to call those "features", as manufacturers often tout them as such. But for all of you who love F1RS and MGPRS as is, great..fine..wonderful. Remember, though, it's the whiners who spur product improvements through wanting more and better, and by complaining about bugs and shortcomings. So don't be so SENSITIVE. Opposing opinions only have power when they're shared. Happy driving.

Steve, What were (are) the main causes of your 'frustration and displeasure' with F1RS? Iain

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>> I really have to agree with you. The moaning about this small amount >> of money is getting on my nerves. For me there are enough reasons to >> buy the new version. The GP of Austria gave me some really exciting >> hours. >> I think this will be a very good simulation. >> Hermann Kauer. >>I think, it's just amazing how confused people are about the meaning >>of the word "patch". There are NO features covered by it, just bugs. >>So even a physics model of less than GPL-standard (the reference now) >>is not a bug, but a missing feature, which is included in a new version. >>l8er >>ronny > True enough, people, it's not the national debt we're talking about,

but >that's not really the point. The point is the RELATIVE value offered by the >two products. Nobody's telling anyone what to do with their OWN money here. >Whatever the weaknesses of MGPRS, if it's simply lacking the bugs of F1RS, >it'll be a better product due to the lack of aggravation. I suppose I'm a bit >jaundiced by my disappointment with all the bugs, and resulting need for >patches, in F1RS. I tried ALL the known tricks to sort it out, from patches to >deadzone to hardware, but never was happy with it. The primary experience was >one of frustration and displeasure, rather than enjoyment. As for the meaning >of "patches", I seem to remember UBI adding support for force feedback and 3D >sound among the "bug" fixes, and Microsoft's "patch" of CPR certainly went far >beyond that, into new menu items, altered AI, and the like. I'd personally >have to call those "features", as manufacturers often tout them as such. But >for all of you who love F1RS and MGPRS as is, great..fine..wonderful. >Remember, though, it's the whiners who spur product improvements through >wanting more and better, and by complaining about bugs and shortcomings. So >don't be so SENSITIVE. Opposing opinions only have power when they're shared. >Happy driving.

>Steve, >What were (are) the main causes of your 'frustration and displeasure' with >F1RS? >Iain My frustration related mainly to the poor menus and awful sound.(for other problems, refer to my first post) Having to reload configurations and setups every time you run the game gets to be annoying, (particularly with the slow menus)and all the other sim programmers seem to have noticed this; why not UBI? The sound barely worked at all initially with my Audio PCI board, and while the 3D sound patch partly solved that, it's still buggy, cutting out randomly, and has an in/out quality at low revs. The modulation is all wrong, a problem that, again, other driving games seem to have bypassed, even old ones; why not UBI? As for the quality, well, it was pathetic, as we all know; unexcusably so. Thanks are indeed due those who've worked to improve the sound, but who at UBI listened to that and said "yeah, that's got it."? As for the disappointment, that's due to the driving model, which for me is the heart of a sim. I don't fault them for not being at the GPL-level. Neither are GP2 or ICR2, but they're more realistic than F1RS. The car's movements in F1RS just don't correspond closely enough to what you'd expect in reality. The other two sims mentioned aren't perfect, but they're closer, in my opinion. I've gotten sideways in F1RS and braked to a FULL stop, and when I released the brake, the car resumed the spin for another 180 degrees or so. That's a canned, arcadish routine, which I think describes a lot of the problem. It "feels" like a computer or arcade game, not a simulation of the real thing. It just doesn't do what it should. I should note that while I'm no Ayrton Senna (though I did have the pleasure of watching him win a GP at Spa in '88), I do have a fair bit of racing experience in a Yamaha KT100 Kart, as well as years of Motocross and Flatracking on motorbikes. No F1 car, to be sure, but a lot of time exploring the limit of adhesion(from both sides!). So I know well what happens on the far side of it. No longer active in racing, I picked up GP2 on a lark last year and was amazed at the familiar old feelings it elicited. It got me into this sim thing, and the newer games (CPR & F1RS) have all proved to be disappointing. Fancy graphics, yes, but lacking the "real" feel needed for true immersion, at least for this guy. GPL may well have it; I hope the final version is workable with my P200mmx/8mb V2 setup. The demo certainly looks promising. I think the posts complaining about GPL's difficulty are revealing of how little people appreciate the difficulty of driving on "the edge" for an extended time. To wrap this novel up, I'd just say if you enjoy whatever sim you're driving, don't worry if someone else doesn't. But if you have complaints, by all means share them, as that's how things get better. Thanks for listening. Steve B.

I just want to say that I agree 100% !!!!! with all your posts, I wish I could put into words the way I feel as well as you can, but then again...... you do a great job of covering everything. Way to go, Lorne >>Steve, >>What were (are) the main causes of your 'frustration and displeasure' with >>F1RS? >>Iain > My frustration related mainly to the poor menus and awful sound.(for other >problems, refer to my first post) Having to reload configurations and setups >every time you run the game gets to be annoying, (particularly with the slow >menus)and all the other sim programmers seem to have noticed this; why not UBI? > The sound barely worked at all initially with my Audio PCI board, and while >the 3D sound patch partly solved that, it's still buggy, cutting out randomly, >and has an in/out quality at low revs. The modulation is all wrong, a problem >that, again, other driving games seem to have bypassed, even old ones; why not >UBI? As for the quality, well, it was pathetic, as we all know; unexcusably >so. Thanks are indeed due those who've worked to improve the sound, but who at >UBI listened to that and said "yeah, that's got it."? > As for the disappointment, that's due to the driving model, which for me is >the heart of a sim. I don't fault them for not being at the GPL-level. >Neither are GP2 or ICR2, but they're more realistic than F1RS. The car's >movements in F1RS just don't correspond closely enough to what you'd expect in >reality. The other two sims mentioned aren't perfect, but they're closer, in >my opinion. I've gotten sideways in F1RS and braked to a FULL stop, and when I >released the brake, the car resumed the spin for another 180 degrees or so. >That's a canned, arcadish routine, which I think describes a lot of the >problem. It "feels" like a computer or arcade game, not a simulation of the >real thing. It just doesn't do what it should. > I should note that while I'm no Ayrton Senna (though I did have the >pleasure of watching him win a GP at Spa in '88), I do have a fair bit of >racing experience in a Yamaha KT100 Kart, as well as years of Motocross and >Flatracking on motorbikes. No F1 car, to be sure, but a lot of time exploring >the limit of adhesion(from both sides!). So I know well what happens on the >far side of it. No longer active in racing, I picked up GP2 on a lark last >year and was amazed at the familiar old feelings it elicited. It got me into >this sim thing, and the newer games (CPR & F1RS) have all proved to be >disappointing. Fancy graphics, yes, but lacking the "real" feel needed for >true immersion, at least for this guy. GPL may well have it; I hope the final >version is workable with my P200mmx/8mb V2 setup. The demo certainly looks >promising. I think the posts complaining about GPL's difficulty are revealing >of how little people appreciate the difficulty of driving on "the edge" for an >extended time. > To wrap this novel up, I'd just say if you enjoy whatever sim you're >driving, don't worry if someone else doesn't. But if you have complaints, by >all means share them, as that's how things get better. Thanks for listening. >Steve B.

>Man you guys are such losers. Do you really need to say things like that ? (you must be a real winner ?) I did not see anybody complain when Gp2 was Many people that bought the first version of F1RS had to suffer through all these patches. were we "used" as testers for MGP ?.......did we pay to be testers ? Do you think it cost UBI that much $ to make MGP ? I think that all people are saying is that it would be nice for UBI to give owners of F1RS A BREAK on the price of MGP, is that to much to ask ? I know that MGP is not really a patch for F1RS (there are many improvements) but owners of F1RS should get a break !!!!!! fair is fair....dont you think ? If I (F1RS owner) would be offered MGP for around $25 (Canadian) I would buy it, no problem........But if I need to pay "full" cost for a game that I helped devolep, and is really just an improved version of F1RS then I just dont think that is fair and I will wait to see how good GP3 is before I buy another sim at full price (I am sure GP3 will be more than just an improved GP2) and I think I have every right to post this type of comment. I (and many people like me) have every right to post our feelings (good, bad or indifferent) The only thing that "is not needed" is your one sided (speak for everyone) attitude !!!!!!!. Do you work for UBISOFT ? Lorne

I'm almost tempted to send you the purchase price myself! Sad, very sad. Iain

>I'm almost tempted to send you the purchase price myself! Sad, very sad. >Iain You wouldnt think it`s so "sad" if you bought F1RS for "full price" less than a month ago......... Not everyone has a ton of money like you........ I need to save all the cash I can because I am a street kid (living on the street) and I need to buy food for my rats so that they can stay in top shape and keep the treadmill in their cage spinning at a high rate of speed........(it`s the only way to power my pc). You should have known...... Lorne

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>>>Man you guys are such losers. >>Do you really need to say things like that ? >>(you must be a real winner ?) >>I did not see anybody complain when Gp2 was >>>released. It could also be viewed as World Circuit Version 1.1., which >>didn't >>>have rain, and still had terrible graphics. Remember the invisible pit >>wall in >>>Australia? >>>How the hell can you call MGP version 1.1 of F1RS, when Ubisoft patched >the >>>original ~ 6 times???? >>Many people that bought the first version of F1RS had to suffer through >>all these patches. >>were we "used" as testers for MGP ?.......did we pay to be testers ? >>Do you think it cost UBI that much $ to make MGP ? >>I think that all people are saying is that it would be nice for UBI to >>give owners of F1RS A BREAK on the price of MGP, is that to much to ask ? >>I know that MGP is not really a patch for F1RS (there are many >improvements) >>but owners of F1RS should get a break !!!!!! >>fair is fair....dont you think ? >>>Now refresh my memeory, how many times has Microprose >>>patched GP2??? >>>We have only seen 1/10th of the full game, without the scenario and

career

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>>>modes which are completely new, not to mention the retro mode, yet you >guys >>>still complain. >>>Somehow I have a feeling that if Crammond releases another simulation >that >>is >>>poorly coded, you guys will hail it as the best thing since sliced bread. >>>No matter what Ubisoft does, or they intensely they support their >products, >>>there is just no pleasing some people. >>If I (F1RS owner) would be offered MGP for around $25 (Canadian) I would >>buy it, no problem........But if I need to pay "full" cost for a game that >I >>helped devolep, >>and is really just an improved version of F1RS then I just dont think

that

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>>is fair and I will >>wait to see how good GP3 is before I buy another sim at full price >>(I am sure GP3 will be more than just an improved GP2) >>and I think I have every right to post this type of comment. >>>So do us all a favour, and don't buy the %%$$ game. Your >>>negativity is not needed. >>I (and many people like me) have every right to post our feelings >>(good, bad or indifferent) >>The only thing that "is not needed" is your one sided (speak for everyone) >>attitude !!!!!!!. >>Do you work for UBISOFT ? >>Lorne

Do you work for Microprose? How the hell do you know that GP3 will just not be a revised version of GP2. So please tell us, are you boinking Crammond? You do seem to have more information than the rest of us. As far as me being a real winner, yes I guess I am, since I am 25 years old, and am worth $300,000. How much are you worth***breath?

Does that mean you can be bought?

>>As far as me being a real winner, yes I guess I am, since I am 25 years old, >>and am worth $300,000. How much are you worth***breath? Do you mean that some medical company will give you $300,000 if you sell your body parts to them, to be used for testing (so that they can find out what makes a jerk like you tick) ? If not, what lottery did you win ? If you really did "earn" it, then I must admit I didnt know that selling CRACK pays so well. A real "winner" would not make posts about how much money he is worth. You should have known......... Lorne

On Fri, 02 Oct 1998 04:18:32 GMT, "Lorne Glustein"

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>>I'm almost tempted to send you the purchase price myself! Sad, very sad. >>Iain >You wouldnt think it`s so "sad" if you bought F1RS for "full price" >less than a month ago......... >Not everyone has a ton of money like you........ I need to save all the cash >I can >because I am a street kid (living on the street) and I need to buy food for >my rats >so that they can stay in top shape and keep the treadmill in their cage >spinning >at a high rate of speed........(it`s the only way to power my pc). >You should have known...... >Lorne

From reading all your recent posts, I get the feeling that you are an individual full of hatred. 1) No one is forcing you to buy MGP. If you feel like it is not a decent upgraded game, just do not buy it. 2) Computer hardware and software is in a state of constant change. What is new today, will be "old" tomorrow. 3) This newsgroup has been full of posts about the upcoming release of "F1RS2" for a long period of time. 4) No product on the market will have a sticker on it telling the consumer not to buy it because a newer version will be available in the near future. 5) A person not agreeing with your opinions is not necessarily dumb-ass, unemployed or work for a software company. 6) Ubisoft doesn't "owe" any one. They provided and supported an acceptable product at a fair price. 7) Just enjoy F1RS and maybe Ubisoft will release a future version that you feel is worthy of buying. BTW, I understand that Ubi did not buy a license to use the name F1. Evidently they can't use the real team's and driver's names any longer. I assume Ubi can only sell the remaining existing inventory of F1RS under that name and that all new versions have to be renamed. Is this a possible reason for the quick intro of MGP? If someone has more knowledge and can expand on this subject, please post a follow-up.