GPL Fullscreen?

*sigh* ---------It's---------- meant to be that way. Why----------- do you need to look at the clouds when you need to-------- concentrate----------- on driving? While you may feel you are not getting the---------- full----------- picture in GPL you infact are seeing more of what you--------------- NEED------------- to see with the letterbox.

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>Is it just me or is everybody else restricted to a "letterbox" view when >actually on the track in Grand Prix Legends? >I am running it in 800x600 with a Voodoo2. The introduction screen, car >set-up, the pits etc. are all displayed in their fullscreen glory, but this >is cut down to a cinema type aspect ratio when I go for a drive. >Thanks.

Nope its not you. Its the game. Sucks dont it but thats the way it is.

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> Is it just me or is everybody else restricted to a "letterbox" view when > actually on the track in Grand Prix Legends? > I am running it in 800x600 with a Voodoo2. The introduction screen, car > set-up, the pits etc. are all displayed in their fullscreen glory, but this > is cut down to a cinema type aspect ratio when I go for a drive. > Thanks.

Is it just me or is everybody else restricted to a "letterbox" view when actually on the track in Grand Prix Legends? I am running it in 800x600 with a Voodoo2. The introduction screen, car set-up, the pits etc. are all displayed in their fullscreen glory, but this is cut down to a cinema type aspect ratio when I go for a drive. Thanks.

>Nope its not you. Its the game. Sucks dont it but thats the way it is. You betcha it sucks. What GPL really needs is some airplanes or balloons floating by like in NFS. And lotsa clouds too. The physics engine surely doesn't need to be this realistic, so they shoulda dumbed it and the AI down quite a bit so they could use the processor cycles to draw a buncha stuff up in the sky. That'd be K00L D00D! -dobe-

I would not call it SUCK. IMHO it is a good idea. (full screen mean FPS eater)

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>Nope its not you. Its the game. Sucks dont it but thats the way it is. >> Is it just me or is everybody else restricted to a "letterbox" view when >> actually on the track in Grand Prix Legends? >> I am running it in 800x600 with a Voodoo2. The introduction screen, car >> set-up, the pits etc. are all displayed in their fullscreen glory, but

this >> is cut down to a cinema type aspect ratio when I go for a drive. >> Thanks.

God forbid anyone should criticise GPL - it can't possibly have even the smallest flaw! For goodness' sake - GPL is good but it has many faults. I suppose it must be me but I'm amazed by all the ***on this NG about GPL. Just a few points to consider: The AI suck big time because they drive like psychopaths. The graphics are good but only fill some of the screen The cars are much too difficult to drive and this is very unrealistic The sound is not at all convincing

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>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:59:26 +1100, >>Is it just me or is everybody else restricted to a "letterbox" view when >>actually on the track in Grand Prix Legends? >>I am running it in 800x600 with a Voodoo2. The introduction screen, car >>set-up, the pits etc. are all displayed in their fullscreen glory, but

this

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>>is cut down to a cinema type aspect ratio when I go for a drive. >>Thanks. >Yes. It is letterbox. It enhances the sensation of speed and by >not having to deal with the extra size, it improves the framerate. >All around, a good deal. >-- >( rrevved is at mindspring dot com >( post in haste, repent at your leisure

I have to know something: Why didn't anybody complain about this in F1RS, but now its like the number 1 complaint in GPL? In F1RS there is that huge black stripe across the top that contains info about your laptime, position, etc. Yet nobody complained that a large area of the gameplay graphics were obscured by it. Strange... Personally, I'd *much, much, MUCH* rather have the wide-angle view afforded by the letterbox view than having the standard 4x3 aspect ratio with its reduced field of view. Or did you just want them to fill the rest of the screen with sky to kill the fillrate of your graphics board? I think that people don't think before they offer this criticism. They all manage to say that the letter box view sucks, but nobody manages to offer any ideas as to what would be better than it. Jarrod Smith The Scripps Research Institute http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith

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>Is it just me or is everybody else restricted to a "letterbox" view when >actually on the track in Grand Prix Legends? >I am running it in 800x600 with a Voodoo2. The introduction screen, car >set-up, the pits etc. are all displayed in their fullscreen glory, but this >is cut down to a cinema type aspect ratio when I go for a drive. >Thanks.

Yep. The wide-angle aspect ratio is one of the best features in the game, and also one of the most criticized aspects of it. Finally we get a sim that includes a *feature* (yes, feature) that comes closer to providing that holy grail of "peripheral vision" that is so often blamed for problems with simulators. And then everyone (well, not everyone) complains about it. Do you complain that the movie screen in the theatre is too wide and not tall enough? You have to realize something: field of view is related to aspect ratio. If you try to fit a wide field of view into a more "square" aspect ratio, then you get weird fisheye effects. Not to mention that in the case of a computer game, not drawing the extra pixels means better performance. Jarrod Smith The Scripps Research Institute http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith >I would not call it SUCK. IMHO it is a good idea.

> God forbid anyone should criticise GPL - it can't possibly have even the > smallest flaw! GPL certainly does have flaws. Any simulation will. They seem pretty fast and clean to me... how are you defining "psychopath"? Do you really need to see more sky and more of your lap? The graphics show you everything you need to see and don't distract you with useless stuff. What's wrong with that? This is based on your personal experience in late '60's Formula 1 cars, or just conjecture? No sound card and speakers available on this planet will truly do justice to these engines... GPL does as good a job as any sim I've heard. Just my opinions... no more or less valid than yours of course. Trips

Hi rrevved (afraid to use your real name?)

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>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:10:14 -0000, >>God forbid anyone should criticise GPL - it can't possibly have even the >>smallest flaw! >>For goodness' sake - GPL is good but it has many faults. I suppose it must >>be me but I'm amazed by all the ***on this NG about GPL. Just a few

points >>to consider: >>The AI suck big time because they drive like psychopaths. >I might. The AI don't. I've lost count of the number of times I've been shunted off the track from behind, even in the warm-ups when braking at the last possible moment in the cars with the best brakes (e.g. Parabolica at Monza). This inevitably leads to the culprit being put out of the race - hardly realistic IMO. I prefer programmes which use the whole screen - it gives more atmosphere IMO. I did, Do you disagree? I have driven the Ferrari in GPL - which I admit has a nice engine note. I wasn't just referring to the engine sounds though. All of the other sounds are far too quiet IMO and there's no option to change the sound levels as there is in most other racing sims. I think that an opportunity was missed to add a lot of interesting sounds and thereby improve the atmosphere. In many ways I agree. If this is supposed to offend me then it doesn't, since I don't have an inferiority complex. It's true that I'm not going to devote all my spare time to driving GPL. If it had a more realistic difficulty level then I think it would be more rewarding. This is plain common sense. I like GPL a lot but it's not perfect. Do you recognise any faults with GPL at all?

Hi Jarrod >Yep. The wide-angle aspect ratio is one of the best features in the game, >and also one of the most criticized aspects of it. Finally we get a sim >that includes a *feature* (yes, feature) that comes closer to providing that

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>holy grail of "peripheral vision" that is so often blamed for problems with >simulators. And then everyone (well, not everyone) complains about it. >Do you complain that the movie screen in the theatre is too wide and not >tall enough? You have to realize something: field of view is related to >aspect ratio. If you try to fit a wide field of view into a more "square" >aspect ratio, then you get weird fisheye effects. Not to mention that in >the case of a computer game, not drawing the extra pixels means better >performance.

I'm sure people who criticise GPL's use of only part of the screen realise this. And yes, I do complain when films are shown on TV in 'letterbox' format as I prefer full screen. The effects you refer to are due to the need to convert the wider aspect ratio of film to TV. This is not an issue for GPL since it wasn't recorded on film. OK, so the wider aspect ratio gives better peripheral vision (in your opinion - I'm not sure I agree BTW). You must surely admit that a compromise has been made by the programmers - the smaller screen gives less atmosphere IMO. Better performance is only an issue if graphics processing power is insufficient to cope with full screen. Surely an option to choose the aspect ratio would be better?

> I've lost count of the number of times I've been shunted off the track from > behind, even in the warm-ups when braking at the last possible moment in the > cars with the best brakes (e.g. Parabolica at Monza). This inevitably leads > to the culprit being put out of the race - hardly realistic IMO. Are you using braking help? If you are, that could account for your getting hit from behind. You have to brake WAY too early with braking help on... When I tried using it in races, I not only got hit from behind, I also had a tendency to hit the cars in front of me under braking unless I braked WAY before they did. I bit the bullet and turned off braking help. Spent a couple of days decorating the tracks with pretty black stripes, but now I don't get hit from behind anymore, and I can brake as late as the AI cars and not run into their backs either. Trips

"Sick at up your ass"? "Sick UP at your ass"? It may not be intentional, but it's funnier than hell. Whassa matter man, your fingers slip? And where did they end up? No, no, don't tell! Jerry Morelock and sick at

>I'm sure people who criticise GPL's use of only part of the screen realise >this. And yes, I do complain when films are shown on TV in 'letterbox' >format as I prefer full screen. You do realize that some of the image is cropped when they do this and you lose information at the edges of the film? Not to mention "squashed". Maybe this doesn't bother you. The tradeoff is worth it IMO. That's not true. The issue has to do with mapping a variable 3D field of view into the invariant aspect ratio of your monitor. So if you were to fill the GPL's screen with the current field of view, there would be artifacts. You get the same type of artifacts as you change the FOV in Quake and F22 ADF/TAW, for example. I think everyone agrees that we don't *need* any more sky or***pit (i.e. vertical FOV) to make the game any better. It could be added to satisfy your desire for atmosphere, but surely you don't look at the sky or your lap while you are racing GPL? Given this, there are 3 options that were open to the programmers: 1) Do what they did. 2) Make the game with a narrower horizontal FOV so that the current vertical FOV fills the screen from top to bottom. Not good, IMO. Wider FOV = better peripheral vision and better sense of speed. 3) Keep both FOV's what they currently are, and make everything look as if you were viewing it through a fisheye lens (edge artifacts a-la Quake and F22-ADF). 4) Make the game with the current horizontal FOV, move the current graphics down, and increase the vertical FOV to fill the rest of the screen with sky. This is pointless, since it doesn't show you any more of the game, and just eats more graphics and CPU cycles. Now keep something in mind: To make number 3 or 4 a user-selectable option, they would have had to rewrite the graphics engine to add the extra viewing mode. This would have taken time to program in. Which part of the current feature set of GPL would you have sacrificed for them to take the time to put this in? Jarrod Smith The Scripps Research Institute http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith

I agree with you in all respects Mr. Rrevved. But I don't like the letterboxing at all. Alot of people have 14 and 15 inch monitors, and the letterboxing just cuts the screen down to 11 or 12 inches max. Very difficult to see further up the track with that small of a picture. As far as it "creating a better sense of speed"....well, Nascar2, GP2, F1RS, ICR2 all ran at full screen and I felt the sensation of speed equally, if not better, then in GPL. Mute argument. Not to take away from the best racing sim ever made in GPL, but I seriously hope they don't follow the letterboxing trend with Nascar3.

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>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:10:14 -0000, >>God forbid anyone should criticise GPL - it can't possibly have even the >>smallest flaw! >>For goodness' sake - GPL is good but it has many faults. I suppose it must >>be me but I'm amazed by all the ***on this NG about GPL. Just a few

points

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>>to consider: >>The AI suck big time because they drive like psychopaths. >I might. The AI don't. >>The graphics are good but only fill some of the screen >Love the graphics! >>The cars are much too difficult to drive and this is very unrealistic >Who sez? >>The sound is not at all convincing >Guess you haven't heard that Maranello monster.......... >Admit it, its just too difficult for you to be bothered. >-- >( rrevved is at mindspring dot com >( post in haste, repent at your leisure

Lawrence Edwards wrote Ok.. after "Have you ever drove a car?" here is ... "Have you ever watched a movie?" What you just wrote is very very very hilarious. Hmm, that's probably why the Pan&Scan version of Star Wars doesn't show the Tusken Raiders... and that I got them in Letterbox. Do you know that when you watch a movie on television, that the image is cropped and edited so you actualy loose (depending on the original ratio) 30 to 40% of the actual movie ? You ever watched 2001 in Letterbox ? The movie vision is completely different. Of course, coming from what you said about GPL, Im not surprise of such words out of your mouth. Oh btw this person emailed me with a "F*ck you French bastard" post. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Karl Hungus wrote I won't even reply to this. Xenophobe and racist. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

>well, Nascar2, GP2, F1RS, ICR2 >all ran at full screen That's false at a certain point. If you really know Nascar2, you will see that it actually runs in letterbox while in the***pit... It's just a 2d ***pit that hides the view of it. Icr2 had a big blue sky with no texture (Im not talking about Rendition here...). The sky is about 50% of the screen. Not important since it doesnt move at all.. Well, it's a closed***pit in N3, so the virtual***pit will take all the screen. I wouldn't be surprised to see a wide-screen while "out of the car" with F10. And that's if they ever make an behind-the-car view hehe. Finally, who give an arse about a black spot on your monitor. Who cares !!!!! So pathetic at a certain point. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

+AD4- +AD4-I've lost count of the number of times I've been shunted off the track from +AD4-behind, even in the warm-ups when braking at the last possible moment in the +AD4-cars with the best brakes (e.g. Parabolica at Monza). This inevitably leads +AD4-to the culprit being put out of the race - hardly realistic IMO. Somehow I find this hard to believe. When you drive smartly and competently the AI has no problem with you. Reflecting on your complaint a bit further down the line of the cars being too hard to drive, I'm betting that your technique is not up to snuff. +AD4-I prefer programmes which use the whole screen - it gives more atmosphere +AD4-IMO. +ACI-atmoshpere+ACI- is right. Lotsa clouds to look at. Again if you're concentrating on the scenery instead of your driving, it's no wonder that the AI punts you outta the way. +AD4APgA+-The cars are much too difficult to drive and this is very unrealistic +AD4APg- +AD4APg-Who sez? +AD4- +AD4-I did, Do you disagree? Got any proof? According to all published sources, interviews with the drivers, track tests, etc. these things were nearly impossible to drive. If they were easy, EVERYONE woulda been a GP racer in 1967. The stock car I drove a few years back was tough enough. +AD4APgA+-The sound is not at all convincing +AD4APg- +AD4APg-Guess you haven't heard that Maranello monster.......... +AD4- +AD4-I have driven the Ferrari in GPL - which I admit has a nice engine note. I +AD4-wasn't just referring to the engine sounds though. All of the other sounds +AD4-are far too quiet IMO and there's no option to change the sound levels as +AD4-there is in most other racing sims. I think that an opportunity was missed +AD4-to add a lot of interesting sounds and thereby improve the atmosphere. +AD4- Which sounds would those be? Airplanes buzzing overhead? Birds chirping? It's quite obvious that you've never been at the wheel of a full bore race car doing 160 on a track. You hear NOTHING but your engine and sometimes some engine noise from the cars around you. Some of the big boys I've talked to said that you can hear the crowd screaming at Daytona and such, but I never got to run a race in front of 100,000 people. +AD4-In many ways I agree. If this is supposed to offend me then it doesn't, +AD4-since I don't have an inferiority complex. It's true that I'm not going to +AD4-devote all my spare time to driving GPL. If it had a more realistic +AD4-difficulty level then I think it would be more rewarding. This is plain +AD4-common sense. Again with the +ACI-realistic difficulty level.+ACI- What you should be saying is +ACI-a less difficult level.+ACI- Don't cry foul when the only thing you have to compare it against is driving a four-door sedan on the highway to work. And don't ask for +ACI-a more realistic difficulty level+ACI- when what you really want is an arcade game. +AD4- +AD4-I like GPL a lot but it's not perfect. Do you recognise any faults with GPL +AD4-at all? Yeah. The fact that they let people who are really looking for a glorified PlayStation game purchase it. -dobe-

+AD4-So the guy has some problems with GPL is that a reason to flame him? Take +AD4-your condesending little +ACI-this is why you are being flamed+ACI- form and sick at +AD4-up your ass. heheh. Hotmail. heheh. -dobe-

>I agree with you in all respects Mr. Rrevved. But I don't like the >letterboxing at all. Alot of people have 14 and 15 inch monitors, and the >letterboxing just cuts the screen down to 11 or 12 inches max. Very >difficult to see further up the track with that small of a picture. As far What does letterboxing have to do with seeing further up the track? So you would prefer a narrower field of view just so they could make the image bigger and fill your screen? I don't buy that, because I absolutely *guarantee* that if they had made the screen exactly like it is now, and filled the rest of the screen with sky, nobody would have said a word about the image being too small, or too wide, or whatever. No, you guys would be complaining that there was too much sky instead! This amounts to finding something to nitpick when there is nothing else to complain about. Jarrod Smith The Scripps Research Institute http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith

yes his racist comment was stupid. but not nearly as stupid as your initial over-the-top response to someone with the temerity to criticise GPL.

Hi Jarrod

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>>I'm sure people who criticise GPL's use of only part of the screen realise >>this. And yes, I do complain when films are shown on TV in 'letterbox' >>format as I prefer full screen. >You do realize that some of the image is cropped when they do this and you >lose information at the edges of the film? Not to mention "squashed". >Maybe this doesn't bother you. The tradeoff is worth it IMO. >>The effects you refer to are due to the need >>to convert the wider aspect ratio of film to TV. This is not an issue for >>GPL since it wasn't recorded on film. >That's not true. The issue has to do with mapping a variable 3D field of >view into the invariant aspect ratio of your monitor. So if you were to >fill the GPL's screen with the current field of view, there would be >artifacts. You get the same type of artifacts as you change the FOV in >Quake and F22 ADF/TAW, for example.

I wasn't suggesting that the current field of view should be remapped. I was saying that I prefer games which use the whole screen - I Nascar2 has the same problem IMO. This is obviously a decision which is taken at the very beginning of writing the software - so I agree that it's too late now to do anything about it. I like option 4. This is just a preference which I am perfectly entitled to hold and express. I don't see it as being pointless to use the whole screen at all since it adds to the atmosphere and allows one to become more immersed in the simulation. That is why real flight simulators surround you with the picture - the more picture - the more realistic.

On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:41:06 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards" >I've lost count of the number of times I've been shunted off the track from >behind, even in the warm-ups when braking at the last possible moment in the >cars with the best brakes (e.g. Parabolica at Monza). This inevitably leads >to the culprit being put out of the race - hardly realistic IMO. Perhaps your braking technique needs work? Also you should be careful not to move onto the line of the AI after starting braking - if you (and they) are at the limit of braking and you cut them off they have the same problem as you would - they have nowhere to go. Each to his own, some like it and some don't. I have to given that I, and many others, have no problem driving the cars. I think it's okay to say "the cars are difficult to drive", but without having a lot of seat time in 60's F1 cars I don't see how you can claim this to be unrealistic, just as no-one can make a claim to the contrary. Cheers! John

Of course... some people just don't understand that ;) Actually.. this r.a.s TROLL FAQ is here since years. It's a little inside joke for many people in the newsgroup and I've seen people use it at least 40-50times in the history of r.a.s. Take it more on the funny side... that's what is it meant to be ;) No keyboard was harm during the making of this post... - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

It's a matter of opinion. Personally, I hate it when movies aren't shown letterbox, because they have to pan and scan to fit, and that ruins what the director and cinematographer were trying to do in the first place (in movies, that is). Yes, you are absolutely correct that it gives less atmosphere, if we take atmosphere to mean the blue layer clinging tenaciously to our earth. If you mean atmosphere as "general ambience and feeling", then my opinion is that the extra sky adds nothing to the feeling of being there. Stephen

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> I'm sure people who criticise GPL's use of only part of the screen realise > this. And yes, I do complain when films are shown on TV in 'letterbox' > format as I prefer full screen. The effects you refer to are due to the need > to convert the wider aspect ratio of film to TV. This is not an issue for > GPL since it wasn't recorded on film. > OK, so the wider aspect ratio gives better peripheral vision (in your > opinion - I'm not sure I agree BTW). You must surely admit that a compromise > has been made by the programmers - the smaller screen gives less atmosphere > IMO.

I personally think the letterbox format is great. I like the way it looks and feels. IMO. ...Andrew

Hi Trips >> I've lost count of the number of times I've been shunted off the track from >> behind, even in the warm-ups when braking at the last possible moment in the >> cars with the best brakes (e.g. Parabolica at Monza). This inevitably leads

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>> to the culprit being put out of the race - hardly realistic IMO. >Are you using braking help? If you are, that could account for your >getting hit from behind. You have to brake WAY too early with braking >help on... When I tried using it in races, I not only got hit from >behind, I also had a tendency to hit the cars in front of me under >braking unless I braked WAY before they did. >I bit the bullet and turned off braking help. Spent a couple of days >decorating the tracks with pretty black stripes, but now I don't get hit >from behind anymore, and I can brake as late as the AI cars and not run >into their backs either. >Trips

No, I'm not using any aids - but I am using the GP car. Perhaps I should spend more time in the trainer.... I'm not denying that, given hours of practise, it is possible to improve braking technique to reduce the number of times the AI outbrake you. This just supports my argument that I would prefer an option to reduce the opponents' skill level in order to give a more rewarding drive for 'learners'. I also don't think anyone has addressed the point that it is realistic for the AI to put themselves out of the race during practise sessions with suicidal driving. Surely you agree that this is not 'realistic'?

Hi John >On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:41:06 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards" >>I've lost count of the number of times I've been shunted off the track from >>behind, even in the warm-ups when braking at the last possible moment in the >>cars with the best brakes (e.g. Parabolica at Monza). This inevitably leads >>to the culprit being put out of the race - hardly realistic IMO. >Perhaps your braking technique needs work? Also you should be careful >not to move onto the line of the AI after starting braking - if you >(and they) are at the limit of braking and you cut them off they have >the same problem as you would - they have nowhere to go. While I'm working on my braking technique, it would be preferable IMO to be able to reduce the level of the opposition. I can't see how that would detract from GPL - quite the opposite. Maybe I'll try altering the drivers.ini settings to achieve this. Agreed 100% I'm basing my opinion on the fact that I find it very diificult to even do full laps even when driving at much below racing speed. I know that 1967 was a dangerous year - but not all the drivers were killed. How many times have you had an accident in GPL? In a real car there is additional feedback which lets you know when you are near the limit. Indeed - I think it says as much in Steve Smith's guide. I agree with his view that GPL will therefore seem more difficult to drive than a real car. This is my point - my perception is that the car is more difficult to drive around a circuit than a real car.

% I also don't think anyone has addressed the point that it is realistic for % the AI to put themselves out of the race during practise sessions with % suicidal driving. Surely you agree that this is not 'realistic'? While the GPL AI is a huge improvement over past Papy efforts, they are still lacking in some Intelligence. They also move over onto you even though the don't need to. I wonder if there are some adjustment that can be made in the .ini files regarding the AI's reaction time. It seems that they are not looking ahead far enough and not reacting soon enough. I am not talking about the individual driver settings, but the global AI ini files. While we are speaking of "flaw", the are some graphical glitches, there seems to be some weird pink sheet of plastic stuck under the armco at Monaco. The sounds for the Coventry continues to "phaze shift" from left to right for no apparent reason. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Perhaps your braking technique needs work? Also you should be careful % not to move onto the line of the AI after starting braking - if you % (and they) are at the limit of braking and you cut them off they have % the same problem as you would - they have nowhere to go. John, this happens even when you have followed your line the whole way. The AI should be aware (due to their closing speed), that they should move over and take another line for braking, but they do not. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> % Perhaps your braking technique needs work? Also you should be careful > % not to move onto the line of the AI after starting braking - if you > % (and they) are at the limit of braking and you cut them off they have > % the same problem as you would - they have nowhere to go. > John, this happens even when you have followed your line the whole way. > The AI should be aware (due to their closing speed), that they should > move over and take another line for braking, but they do not.

For a long time I never drove any car other than the Lotus or Eagle, and never had an AI car hit me from behind. Just for fun, I decided to try running a season with the Coventry. In the Coventry, even though I am running fast and braking late, sometimes the AI will hit me. It's as though the AI has less respect or patience for a driver in a Coventry than for someone in a Lotus. Might this be a programmed feature of the sim? Oh, and it's usually a Ferrari! Maybe it's just nationalism rearing it's head :) -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Francois I emailed you with an abusive private email so you would see what it's like. I didn't feel it necessary to inflict it on the rest of the NG. You started it. I merely expressed an opinion that I though GPL has some faults and for *no reason* you flame me with an abusive reply. How old are you? Yes, I have driven plenty of cars, watched plenty of films and used computers for more than 18 years, including driving simulations since about 1981. I am entitled to prefer films in full screen. I am entitled to think GPL has faults. You really need to grow up and get your head out of your arse. Oh and by the way, you missed "off" and "stupid" from my quote. -----Original Message----- Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators Date: 06 November 1998 03:18 Subject: Re: GPL Fullscreen?

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>Lawrence Edwards wrote >> And yes, I do complain when films are shown on TV in 'letterbox' >>format as I prefer full screen. >Ok.. after "Have you ever drove a car?" here is ... >"Have you ever watched a movie?" >What you just wrote is very very very hilarious. Hmm, that's probably why >the Pan&Scan version of Star Wars doesn't show the Tusken Raiders... and >that I got them in Letterbox. >Do you know that when you watch a movie on television, that the image is >cropped and edited so you actualy loose (depending on the original ratio)

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>to 40% of the actual movie ? You ever watched 2001 in Letterbox ? The movie >vision is completely different. >Of course, coming from what you said about GPL, Im not surprise of such >words out of your mouth. Oh btw this person emailed me with a "F*ck you >French bastard" post. >- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! >- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) >- Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS >- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."-- >Lawrence Edwards wrote >> And yes, I do complain when films are shown on TV in 'letterbox' >>format as I prefer full screen. >Ok.. after "Have you ever drove a car?" here is ... >"Have you ever watched a movie?" >What you just wrote is very very very hilarious. Hmm, that's probably why >the Pan&Scan version of Star Wars doesn't show the Tusken Raiders... and >that I got them in Letterbox. >Do you know that when you watch a movie on television, that the image is >cropped and edited so you actualy loose (depending on the original ratio)

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>to 40% of the actual movie ? You ever watched 2001 in Letterbox ? The movie >vision is completely different. >Of course, coming from what you said about GPL, Im not surprise of such >words out of your mouth. Oh btw this person emailed me with a "F*ck you >French bastard" post. >- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! >- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) >- Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS >- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> I also don't think anyone has addressed the point that it is realistic for > the AI to put themselves out of the race during practise sessions with > suicidal driving. Surely you agree that this is not 'realistic'? I haven't seen this sort of behavior from the AI yet... You're seeing them crash out during practice sessions? Trips

LE> The AI suck big time because they drive like psychopaths. I cannot see this behavior !? LE> The graphics are good but only fill some of the screen I think the grafics should have been better... LE> The cars are much too difficult to drive and this is very unrealistic No. GPL is the FIRST sim with realistic physics - that's for sure. Under- steer and oversteer...it's all there, and you can handle it with the gas pedal. THAT's racing !! BTW: remember that in 1967 there were no wings and spoilers at all... the F1 from today should be easier to drive. LE> The sound is not at all convincing I think you haven't heard the Ferrari, have you !? Also, man mailt sich... .\\atze [ FmMW2109 - FmMB2139 ] *home* : http://www.home4u.de/buesing/

DH> You betcha it sucks. What GPL really needs is DH> some airplanes or balloons floating by like in DH> NFS. And lotsa clouds too. Bah - please go back to your arcade-racer...GPL will separate the boys from the men. The physics are the difference that helped GPL becoming a legend...not the grafics - although I hae to admit that GPL with the realistic grafics of NFS III would be great. But please: no balloons or other stupid flying objects !! Also, man mailt sich... .\\atze [ FmMW2109 - FmMB2139 ] *home* : http://www.home4u.de/buesing/

JS> I have to know something: Why didn't anybody complain about this in JS> F1RS, but now its like the number 1 complaint in GPL? In F1RS there is JS> that huge black stripe across the top that contains info about your JS> laptime, position, etc. Yet nobody complained that a large area of the JS> gameplay graphics were obscured by it. Strange... I can't remember seeing this in F1RS (cockpitview enabled) !? Also, man mailt sich... .\\atze [ FmMW2109 - FmMB2139 ] *home* : http://www.home4u.de/buesing/

I remember the first time I saw a post about the letterbox view. At the time I said to myself "Shit, it has too!" Point being that although I realized this subconsciously, I was to engrossed with the sim to actually take any notice. Maybe this is where your difficulties stem from Lawrence. Sounds like your looking at the black part of the screen and listening for the bird noises! Focus Lawrence! Focus! :)

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> Hi rrevved (afraid to use your real name?) > >On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:10:14 -0000, > >>God forbid anyone should criticise GPL - it can't possibly have even the > >>smallest flaw! > >>For goodness' sake - GPL is good but it has many faults. I suppose it must > >>be me but I'm amazed by all the ***on this NG about GPL. Just a few > points > >>to consider: > >>The AI suck big time because they drive like psychopaths. > >I might. The AI don't. > I've lost count of the number of times I've been shunted off the track from > behind, even in the warm-ups when braking at the last possible moment in the > cars with the best brakes (e.g. Parabolica at Monza). This inevitably leads > to the culprit being put out of the race - hardly realistic IMO. > >>The graphics are good but only fill some of the screen > >Love the graphics! > I prefer programmes which use the whole screen - it gives more atmosphere > IMO. > >>The cars are much too difficult to drive and this is very unrealistic > >Who sez? > I did, Do you disagree? > >>The sound is not at all convincing > >Guess you haven't heard that Maranello monster.......... > I have driven the Ferrari in GPL - which I admit has a nice engine note. I > wasn't just referring to the engine sounds though. All of the other sounds > are far too quiet IMO and there's no option to change the sound levels as > there is in most other racing sims. I think that an opportunity was missed > to add a lot of interesting sounds and thereby improve the atmosphere. > >Admit it, its just too difficult for you to be bothered. > In many ways I agree. If this is supposed to offend me then it doesn't, > since I don't have an inferiority complex. It's true that I'm not going to > devote all my spare time to driving GPL. If it had a more realistic > difficulty level then I think it would be more rewarding. This is plain > common sense. > I like GPL a lot but it's not perfect. Do you recognise any faults with GPL > at all?

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

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> God forbid anyone should criticise GPL - it can't possibly have even the > smallest flaw! > For goodness' sake - GPL is good but it has many faults. I suppose it must > be me but I'm amazed by all the ***on this NG about GPL. Just a few points > to consider: > The AI suck big time because they drive like psychopaths.

Nonsense! Whoopy doo! Why have the cpu/graphics card bogged down putting up worthless graphics? Nonesense. Utter nonsense! -- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

What brake bias are you using? > No, I'm not using any aids - but I am using the GP car. Perhaps I should > spend more time in the trainer.... I'm not denying that, given hours of > practise, it is possible to improve braking technique to reduce the number > of times the AI outbrake you. This just supports my argument that I would > prefer an option to reduce the opponents' skill level in order to give a > more rewarding drive for 'learners'. -- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

This is true until, unlike real drivers, we have done a zillion laps, spending mere seconds making setup adjustments that take hours in real life, and know the sim and it's tracks like the back of our hand. Not to mention the fact that we need not fear for our lives, just our results! The ball may be in the real drivers court in the beginning, but it's soon back in ours in a very big way IMO. Give me 100% accurate physics any day! :)) While we're on this subject, while a real race team and driver are loading up semi trailers with all their gear, transporting it, unloading it, assembling it, setting car up, refueling, etc, etc, etc.......... then packing up, going home, unloading, testing, etc, etc, etc....... we simmers are out on the track doing laps. We pull into the pits and change motors, gearboxs, differentials, springs, shocks, etc, etc, etc.... in about 30 seconds flat. Come to think of it, I think the ball is always in our court. By the time these guys get on the track we have already put down lap times that they will simply never achieve! :) > In a real car there is additional feedback which lets you know when you are > near the limit. Indeed - I think it says as much in Steve Smith's guide. I > agree with his view that GPL will therefore seem more difficult to drive > than a real car. This is my point - my perception is that the car is more > difficult to drive around a circuit than a real car. -- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

The default one. Would you recommend that I try moving it forwards or rearwards (in the Eagle or Lotus) ?

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>What brake bias are you using? >> No, I'm not using any aids - but I am using the GP car. Perhaps I should >> spend more time in the trainer.... I'm not denying that, given hours of >> practise, it is possible to improve braking technique to reduce the

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>> of times the AI outbrake you. This just supports my argument that I would >> prefer an option to reduce the opponents' skill level in order to give a >> more rewarding drive for 'learners'. >-- > Byron Forbes > Captain of Team Lightning Bolt > http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS > and > http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

Hi Trips I shouldn't have said that they put themselves out of the race, I meant to say that they drive in an aggressive manner and are prepared to take risks that result in accidents which would put them out of the race. I think it would be an improvement if the AI were less aggressive during the practise session. Of course, GPL quite rightly makes several compromises, giving up realism in exchange for making the game "fun". For example, it's hardly "realistic" that you can reset with Shift R or return tho the pits with Escape. I would like to see a *few* more compromises in this direction. >> I also don't think anyone has addressed the point that it is realistic for

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>> the AI to put themselves out of the race during practise sessions with >> suicidal driving. Surely you agree that this is not 'realistic'? >I haven't seen this sort of behavior from the AI yet... You're seeing >them crash out during practice sessions? >Trips

> God forbid anyone should criticise GPL - it can't possibly have > even the > smallest flaw! > For goodness' sake - GPL is good but it has many faults. Agreed, no weather, the steep learning curve to get the most from it, a ninja pc required to get the most from it, many, many hours practising to get the most from it.....but no major faults? I've not come across this. In what way do they drive like psychopaths? They seem pretty good to me. The graphics are the best out there, IMHO, and the merits of the letterbox effect has been discussed time and again. There is a steep learning curve to drive the GP cars well, but you can drive a trainer with no damage and auto gears/brakes/throttle. What other aids do you need? And I think these cars were very, *VERY* difficult to drive, think about it....Very highly powered machines, Lots of torque, skinny grooved tyres, no wings, no ground effect, no aerodynamics, no traction control, no active suspension, sounds like a lethal combination to me, and it often was lethal. Again, this is a matter of opinion, the sounds in GPL appear no worse than any other game/sim. And the Ferrari sounds awesome. 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterisk to e-mail)

Hi Byron You mean that maybe, perhaps maybe, one tiny aspect of what I wrote might have had a grain of truth in it <g>? >This is true until, unlike real drivers, we have done a zillion laps, spending mere >seconds making setup adjustments that take hours in real life, and know the sim and it's >tracks like the back of our hand. Not to mention the fact that we need not fear for our >lives, just our results! The ball may be in the real drivers court in the beginning, but >it's soon back in ours in a very big way IMO. Give me 100% accurate physics any day! :)) > While we're on this subject, while a real race team and driver are loading up semi >trailers with all their gear, transporting it, unloading it, assembling it, setting car >up, refueling, etc, etc, etc.......... then packing up, going home, unloading, testing, >etc, etc, etc....... we simmers are out on the track doing laps. We pull into the pits and >change motors, gearboxs, differentials, springs, shocks, etc, etc, etc.... in about 30 >seconds flat. Come to think of it, I think the ball is always in our court. By the time >these guys get on the track we have already put down lap times that they will simply never >achieve! :) >> In a real car there is additional feedback which lets you know when you are >> near the limit. Indeed - I think it says as much in Steve Smith's guide. I

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>> agree with his view that GPL will therefore seem more difficult to drive >> than a real car. This is my point - my perception is that the car is more >> difficult to drive around a circuit than a real car. >-- > Byron Forbes > Captain of Team Lightning Bolt > http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS > and > http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

Hi Peter Apart from the aids that are found in other sims (steering help, suggested gear, training track, increased grip, reduced opponents etc), with a little imagination perhaps we could come up with some others. Perhaps driving sims could take a leaf out of the flight sim book - what about a tutorial on driving technique, for example you could sit 'in-car' with one of the AI who 'talks' you round the lap using a recorded commentary. OK, so it's not entirely "realistic", but it would be good fun. I'm not denying that the cars were very difficult to drive, just not very very very very very difficult. The pros did have a limited amount of practise - a bit like me really <g>. I still reckon GPL is more difficult than is realistic, and what's more it would be more fun, more popular and have a longer shelf life if it gave *the option* to make the cars a bit easier to drive.

On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:58:16 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >John, this happens even when you have followed your line the whole way. >The AI should be aware (due to their closing speed), that they should >move over and take another line for braking, but they do not. If you are on the limit for braking it's not possible to ease up, steer to another line and still make the corner - that was the point I was making. If the following driver is on the limit he may have the choice of going off for sure, or nudging you and seeing what cards he is dealt. Cheers! John

On Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:51:25 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards" >I'm basing my opinion on the fact that I find it very diificult to even do >full laps even when driving at much below racing speed. I know that 1967 was >a dangerous year - but not all the drivers were killed. How many times have >you had an accident in GPL? About as many as I would expect if I hopped straight into a 1967 F1 car and tried to keep up with Jim Clark and having no fear for my life. Fact is, if you asked me I am 100% sure I could run a full GP distance without an accident, and have done so several times. That is far more than I would expect in the real thing - surely then GPL is easier to drive if anything? Given that there are few of us, very few of us, who have ever driven our real cars anywhere NEAR the limit I'm not sure it could be stated with confidence that such additional feedback would even be noticed, far less acted upon. In any case, many people are driving GPL extremely succesfully which suggest that not only is GPL not as tough as is made out, but that the feedback provided more than makes up for the lack of seat of the pants feel. Whether this is a form of feedback or merely the benefot of longer seat time or Pavlovian response can be argued at will :-) Cheers! John

I wasn't sure about the letterbox version at first , but I think it was a good choice. I have a few comments about it below: 1. This does inprove framerate as less screen has to be drawn. GPL is very CPU dependent game. 2. Harder to see on 15" and below but great on my 17". 3. Much easier to see around a corner with the wide screen format. 4. I didn't like the fisheye of CART and earlier indycar series. I prefered GP2's view to those earlier Papyrus sims. Hopefully a future GP3 will have a widescreen option. 5. This is just a great game. No other sim has given me the satisfaction of a great lap turned. 6 The widesceen format allows the steering wheel to be shown fully and that gives more driver feedback than most would think. I think the wheel vibrates as to the amount of grip and also helps you see how much lock your aplying. 7. Best driving SIM to date period!!! 8. How much for that SONY widescreen monitor? In summary I give the widescreen a big thumbs up. Jerry

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>On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:58:16 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >>John, this happens even when you have followed your line the whole way. >>The AI should be aware (due to their closing speed), that they should >>move over and take another line for braking, but they do not. >If you are on the limit for braking it's not possible to ease up, >steer to another line and still make the corner - that was the point >I was making. If the following driver is on the limit he may have the >choice of going off for sure, or nudging you and seeing what cards he >is dealt.

Would increasing the "alertness" parameter in the drivers.ini file help to make the AI more careful when following you? -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

In the Lotus I find 57 to be good at most tracks. Go as low as you can until you start spinning into corners or experience a lot of instability even in a straight line. Having the clutchs/ramp angle sorted for off power behaviour is a must for steady braking too.

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> The default one. Would you recommend that I try moving it forwards or > rearwards (in the Eagle or Lotus) ? > >What brake bias are you using? > >> No, I'm not using any aids - but I am using the GP car. Perhaps I should > >> spend more time in the trainer.... I'm not denying that, given hours of > >> practise, it is possible to improve braking technique to reduce the > number > >> of times the AI outbrake you. This just supports my argument that I would > >> prefer an option to reduce the opponents' skill level in order to give a > >> more rewarding drive for 'learners'. > >-- > > Byron Forbes > > Captain of Team Lightning Bolt > > http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS > > and > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm