Different situation about Papyrus software (E3 article)

[link lost in import] Remember nothing here is official PR... only speculation, but at least stirring up the whole deal will help us get a straight answer hopefully =============== Nascar 3/2000 Ok, NASCAR fans, its on its way. I talked to PR from Papyrus about NASCAR 3, and heres the skinny: The title will be NASCAR 2000, not NASCAR 3, and it is slated to go gold September 1 and ship by the end of September. Two annual updates are scheduled thereafter (NASCAR 2001 and 2002. Duh.) N2000 will not, I repeat, NOT, be played exclusively on TEN anymore. Papyrus will be setting up their own free servers, and the game will ship with a built-in feature to help you find servers to race on. I asked if they were going to reserve specific servers for fixed setup racing or for certain skill levels, but it is undetermined at this point. As you may have heard, N2000 will no longer be using the Gran Prix Legends physics engine. Papyrus has decided that theyre going to try to make the game appeal to a more mass audience, not just the 1% who will actually try to adjust all 200 engine and chassis tweaks. The physics engine will be the same as that from NASCAR 1999, which was the same as that from NASCAR 2. Hold on dont get mad yet! Im told that the engine is going to be tweaked extensively to make the handling much more realistic, and the physics model is now 3D so cars can actually go airborne during crashes. In essence, the engine will be much more realistic, but not quite as overkill as GPL (known in some circles as "the hardest game in the world."). The switch away from the computationally intensive GPL engine should also make players with older computers happy. You wont have the insane selection of car settings that were initially listed in the N3 press releases, but there still should be plenty of tweaking options available to keep you busy for a while. Naturally N2000 will support the popular 3D accelerators out of the box, so you N2 guys with Rendition cards may have to go shopping finally. ============== -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

No GPL physics in N3??? Errrr... wasn't that the entire POINT of N3? If the physics are going to be N2 enhanced then I certainly hope some R&D was put into AI and graphic quality. Additionally, the info about multi-player outside of TEN thru servers is GREAT news. The "upside" to this whole physics deal is that when I trade in my p2-333 I can now go ahead and get a p3-500 and not have to wait for a 600 or 700 mhz machine to push 40 Winston Cup cars using GPL physics.... now it'll just have to push the same ol' 39 cars with more eye candy slowing the framerate down and not the realism. Too bad. I will not lie and say that I won't buy it... but, Papy has lost some credibility in my eyes. Final judgment will come after the demo hits and then the finished product. Most of us want the game to be as real as possible, the entire premise of "sim". To do that, without a true physics model, the follwing MUST be included: 1) Better Graphics. - Supporting resolutions up to 1600 x 1200 for us 21"+ monitor owners - Color Depth at least 16bit. I believe N2/N99 still utilize 256 as the recommended?? - Support 3dfx cards in SLI mode. 2) Pit problems. - Broken jacks, loose tires, missing nuts, the silly things that happen to make every pitstop an adventure and not a 19 second consistency. - Pit crews jumping over the wall is NOT necessary as in Revolution 3) Better smoke. - For those of us with the PC horsepower, true smoke that is as thick and blinding as it is on race day. 4) Weather. - Changing weather conditions throughout the race. Effecting setups and strategy. 5) Debris. - Shouldn't be able to drive through a mass of body debris without sustaining "some" kind of damage. Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Andrew

> Nascar 3/2000 <snip>

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> As you may have heard, N2000 will no longer be using the Gran Prix Legends > physics engine. Papyrus has decided that theyre going to try to make the > game appeal to a more mass audience, not just the 1% who will actually try > to adjust all 200 engine and chassis tweaks. The physics engine will be the > same as that from NASCAR 1999, which was the same as that from NASCAR 2. > Hold on dont get mad yet! Im told that the engine is going to be tweaked > extensively to make the handling much more realistic, and the physics model > is now 3D so cars can actually go airborne during crashes.

BFD. AFAIK this will rank up there with Nascar Revolution. I'm sick of the 1996 N2 physics. GPL - the last best sim? Maybe GP3 will deliver. Oh, yeah, Papyrus has decided to appeal to a more mass audience? I DOUBT IT. IMHO this is not like Papyrus. Sierra is at the bottom of this... D.Cook

> The title will be NASCAR 2000, not NASCAR 3, and it is slated to go gold > September 1 and ship by the end of September. Two annual updates are > scheduled thereafter (NASCAR 2001 and 2002. Duh.) This has got Sierra Sports written all over it. ie 1 update/year --> more sales. I am beginning to think that RIP post may be correct. Anyone familiar with The FPS line of Gridiron games would be as concerned as me about this. It is purely and simply a "milk it for all it's worth" attitude by the suites. Looks like the genre needs new ***!

Unless you are using Glide which I believe has 16-bit (64K) colors. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

it. ie 1 update/year --> You got that right, they'll continue to develop what was gonna be N3 and release it later. Those bastards, they ruined the trend of developing a racing sim to the fullest. $$$ talks and this time they (sierra) is gonna kill themselves. Papyrus has alot of fans, Sierra is making me dislike Papyrus and its not even Papyrus' fault. They better change those friggen put out? Oh yeah Craftsman Truck blah blah.. any more?? lol gggggzzzzzzz. Charles

I think the lackluster sales of GPL are probably at the bottom of this. The suits at $ierra are scared that N2000 won't be the success that N1 & 2 were.The size of the *** simmer market is much smaller than the "Deerhunter" market, so who do you think they would alienate first? I don't understand why they can't make it just as challenging and realistic as GPL and throw in an arcade mode to appease the people that just want to race to win. I hope I am wrong, but I am not holding my breath. Kyle <snipped>

> This has got Sierra Sports written all over it. ie 1 update/year --> > more sales. I am beginning to think that RIP post may be correct. Anyone > familiar with The FPS line of Gridiron games would be as concerned as me > about this. It is purely and simply a "milk it for all it's worth" > attitude by the suites. Looks like the genre needs new ***! How about 1 update/year for ICR2 ;-) I could go for that. Does anyone else feel cheated by the lack of GPL engine in N3? (if its true) Is anyone else madder than hell that Papy would make a nascar legends game before another CART title?!?!?!?!? I think I smell a sellout. Brian Fox

Don't forget that Sierra has survived quite a lot of these shenanigans. Av/Mikey | over

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|it. ie 1 update/year --> |>more sales. I am beginning to think that RIP post may be correct. Anyone |>familiar with The FPS line of Gridiron games would be as concerned as me |>about this. It is purely and simply a "milk it for all it's worth" |>attitude by the suites. Looks like the genre needs new ***! | | You got that right, they'll continue to develop what was gonna be N3 and |release it later. Those bastards, they ruined the trend of developing a |racing sim to the fullest. $$$ talks and this time they (sierra) is gonna |kill themselves. Papyrus has alot of fans, Sierra is making me dislike |Papyrus and its not even Papyrus' fault. They better change those friggen |put out? Oh yeah Craftsman Truck blah blah.. any more?? lol gggggzzzzzzz. | | Charles | | |

"...People that just want to Race to Win..." Ugh. That spells doom for us types who want to strive for something, not just the Try/Reset/Try/Reset/Win attitude I call the Captain Kirk mindset. Mikey (There's a tear in my beer) the Slowpoke. |I think the lackluster sales of GPL are probably at the bottom of this. The

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|suits at $ierra are scared that N2000 won't be the success that N1 & 2 |were.The size of the *** simmer market is much smaller than the |"Deerhunter" market, so who do you think they would alienate first? I don't |understand why they can't make it just as challenging and realistic as GPL |and throw in an arcade mode to appease the people that just want to race to |win. I hope I am wrong, but I am not holding my breath. | |Kyle | | |> [link lost in import] |> |> Remember nothing here is official PR... only speculation, but at least |> stirring up the whole deal will help us get a straight answer hopefully |> |> =============== |> Nascar 3/2000 |> |> Ok, NASCAR fans, it's on its way. I talked to PR from Papyrus about

NASCAR |> 3, and here's the skinny: |<snipped> | | |

GPL physics in N3 are not quite as important to me as making the game more graphically pleasing to the eye. I don't care to have cars go flying through the air, as much as I want top be able to read the small contingency decals on the sides of the cars. If they significantly improve the following areas, I'll be happy: 1) Stand-alone server support (including a Linux server), a la the quake genre. This would be a great method for running a league as well, by allowing the user to write plug-ins for league race results and stats. 2) Multiplayer support (20-30 cars would be acceptable, but 30-40 cars in a multiplayer game would be desireable). 3) Dump the AI cars altogether, and concentrate on the multiplayer aspect of the sim. If this isn't desirable from a sales point of view, sell two different versions of the sim - one for offline, and one for online. 4) Improved graphic representation of the cars, including color depth, round wheel wells, and better shape definition. 5) OpenGL support so I can finally dump my freakin Voodoo card. 6) Include the OLD versions of all the tracks (Sears Point and Atlanta for instance), as well as the tracks that have been removed from the Nascar/Busch circuits since N1 came out. 7) Include leaguie maintenance support, such as assigned car numbers and league carsets. 8) Give us a damn track editor so we can make our own tracks. 9) Take greater pains to make the track formats more compatible between sims (ICR2, N1, N2, N3, GPL, LON). ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS (Season 2) Director http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

There are also supposed to be 3 development teams within Papyrus working on different titles...so...who knows whats actually going on. :)

Three teams. Let's see... 1) NASCAR Legends 2) NASCAR 2000 3) GPL 1.1 Patch --> NASCAR 2001 after GPL 1.1 patch is released Sound reasonable to anyone? ----------------------------- -Chris- | Two wheels are better | |Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R| ----------------------------- --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- ---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

> There are also supposed to be 3 development teams within Papyrus working on > different titles...so...who knows whats actually going on. :) I get the feeling that Sean Gleason at Sierra has his head in his armpit. I don't care if he's the Director of Marketing. Based on information we have been over before, there should be an N3 and an N2000. Until I hear it from Papyrus, I won't believe it. I would bet money that N3 will still be released this fall with the GPL physics engine... David L. Cook

wrote...

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> >I think the lackluster sales of GPL are probably at the bottom of this. The > >suits at $ierra are scared that N2000 won't be the success that N1 & 2 > >were. > I found this quote from http://www.gamers.com/industry/e3-1999/nascar.asp > Gamer.com's E3 coverage that perhaps give insight to Sierra's reasoning in that > GPL is "known in some circles as the hardest game in the world.".

Hardest "game" to some, and most realistic "simulation" others...

David, The problem is that GPL did not sell like N2/N99 did. The reason is that particularly here in the States, more people relate to NASCAR than 1967 Grand Prix cars. Although I absolutely love GPL as a majority of us here do.... we are a minority interested in the total sales of racing software. Now, Im willing to bet that we are a majority of the sales for GPL, but think of all the people who purchased N2/N99 for their husbands, children, etc simply because it was NASCAR. They wont be doing that if they hear that its "too hard". Justified in our eyes or not. Sierra has nothing but $$$$ in their interest in this. They are a business and they are going to do whatever brings them the most return on their investment, not what we *** sim racers think they should do. =( Im willing to bet that the next release of NASCAR Racing is NOT the N3 we all were expecting. It will either be an "upgraded" N2 physics engine or a very dumbed down GPL Physics-like engine. IMHO Scott PA-Scott G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com > Hardest "game" to some, and most realistic "simulation" others... -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott on TEN [link lost in import: /~sbhusted] ICQ# 4395450

I am 100%, without a doubt 180 degrees OPPOSITE of your opinion. I say***eye-candy, and give me GPL-style physics in N3. I could CARE LESS about eye candy. > GPL physics in N3 are not quite as important to me as making the game > more graphically pleasing to the eye. I don't care to have cars go > flying through the air, as much as I want top be able to read the small > contingency decals on the sides of the cars Ridiculous comment. Ludicrous.

I don't think the lackluster sales (if they were truthfully lackluster, who knows?) were NOT due to it being a hard game......I think the lackluster sales were due to it being a 60's F1 game. NASCAR sells in America......big time. I think if they released N3 with the *** GPL physics engine, it would sell very, very well.....simply because it's a NASCAR game. > I think the lackluster sales of GPL are probably at the bottom of this. The > suits at $ierra are scared that N2000 won't be the success that N1 & 2 > were.The size of the *** simmer market is much smaller than the > "Deerhunter" market, so who do you think they would alienate first? I don't > understand why they can't make it just as challenging and realistic as GPL > and throw in an arcade mode to appease the people that just want to race to

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> win. I hope I am wrong, but I am not holding my breath. > Kyle > > [link lost in import] > > Remember nothing here is official PR... only speculation, but at least > > stirring up the whole deal will help us get a straight answer hopefully > > =============== > > Nascar 3/2000 > > Ok, NASCAR fans, it's on its way. I talked to PR from Papyrus about

NASCAR > > 3, and here's the skinny: > <snipped>

Where the hell is the next CART racing sim?! Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

>Naturally N2000 will support the popular 3D accelerators out of the box, so >you N2 guys with Rendition cards may have to go shopping finally. What about grahpical quality, have the re-written the graphics engine? Because they should. N2000 looks pretty bad compared to modern graphics engines. Joe

I care quite a bit about both. As long as its not worthless eye-candy, aka lens flare, and it gives me a better view and more situational awareness of whats going on in and around my car, I'm all for graphics. :)

> I would bet money that N3 will > still be released this fall with the GPL physics engine... I'll take that bet. -- Marc J. Nelson SimRacing Online - http://www.simracing.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

I think the point has to be made: Even if GPL had enjoyed great reviews, the sales would have been lackluster because here in the states, 1967 F1 is little more than trivia. Don't get me wrong, as a rabid fan of F1, I was intrigued by the title. But you have a slim chance of finding many people on the street here who even know what modern day F1 is, muchless its 1967 incarnation. Even in Europe where everyone knows what F1 is, the title apparently didn't sell well. If there had been a modern day F1 Sim chosen as the vehicle for the initial release of the GPL Engine, I'm convinced that it would have been an overwhelming commercail sucess. By choosing 1967 which many computer game players have no memory of, Papy shot themselves and the GPL Engine in the foot. Now they are dealing with the market reality of their choice and Sierra gets to play the heavy. Papy had better find some modern day implementation of the GPL Engine and try to recover from there mistakes of the past or the GPL Engine is doomed to never reach the market it deserves. They had a chance with N3. They have given up. They and the GPL Engine may never recover unless they FORGET about historical titles for the next implementation!! > David, > The problem is that GPL did not sell like N2/N99 did. The reason is that > particularly here in the States, more people relate to NASCAR than 1967 Grand Prix > cars. Although I absolutely love GPL as a majority of us here do.... we are a > minority interested in the total sales of racing software. Now, Im willing to bet > that we are a majority of the sales for GPL, but think of all the people who > purchased N2/N99 for their husbands, children, etc simply because it was NASCAR. > They wont be doing that if they hear that its "too hard". Justified in our eyes or > not. > Sierra has nothing but $$$$ in their interest in this. They are a business and they > are going to do whatever brings them the most return on their investment, not what we > *** sim racers think they should do. =( > Im willing to bet that the next release of NASCAR Racing is NOT the N3 we all were > expecting. It will either be an "upgraded" N2 physics engine or a very dumbed down

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> GPL Physics-like engine. > IMHO > Scott > PA-Scott > G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com > > Hardest "game" to some, and most realistic "simulation" others... > -- > Scott B. Husted > PA-Scott on TEN > [link lost in import: /~sbhusted] > ICQ# 4395450

You just gave me an idea. While I'm no marketing whiz, I do know $$$ makes the world go round. When it comes to dealing with the 'suits', it's always about balancing product quality with profitability. Sierra could take a page from Intel's book on how to take an advantage in product technology and sell it to both ends of the market. The Intel Celeron is the same core product as the PII, but rated for lower clock speed and sold at a big discount to capture the mass market at the low end while the PII ( and now PIII) gets a premium price from those who can justify the cost for the higher performance. Seems to me N3 could be based on the GPL engine and sold at a premium price ( a la PII ) to the hard-core sim fanatic who will pay for it, and take the same technology and dumb it down for the mass market as a different product, making it the successor to N99 at the lower price that currently moves product and makes money. The one would even act as an upgrade path to the other for the sim racing novice who gets the bug. Us hard-core sim fanatics would continue to beat the drum for Papy's reputation as the industry leader which would help sell product aimed at the mass market. Seems like a classic win-win to me. I can see why this strategy might have been over looked when Sierra wants to make money and Papy wants to make the best sim. They're looking at different and conflicting targets. What about it Sierra? Marty

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> David, > The problem is that GPL did not sell like N2/N99 did. The reason is that > particularly here in the States, more people relate to NASCAR than 1967 Grand Prix > cars. Although I absolutely love GPL as a majority of us here do.... we are a > minority interested in the total sales of racing software. Now, Im willing to bet > that we are a majority of the sales for GPL, but think of all the people who > purchased N2/N99 for their husbands, children, etc simply because it was NASCAR. > They wont be doing that if they hear that its "too hard". Justified in our eyes or > not. > Sierra has nothing but $$$$ in their interest in this. They are a business and they > are going to do whatever brings them the most return on their investment, not what we > *** sim racers think they should do. =( > Im willing to bet that the next release of NASCAR Racing is NOT the N3 we all were > expecting. It will either be an "upgraded" N2 physics engine or a very dumbed down > GPL Physics-like engine. > IMHO > Scott > PA-Scott > G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com > > Hardest "game" to some, and most realistic "simulation" others... > -- > Scott B. Husted > PA-Scott on TEN > [link lost in import: /~sbhusted] > ICQ# 4395450

Nascar3 with No GPL physics = no sale for me. Not really a fan of Oval racing but was going to pick up Nascar3 based on the *great* feel in GPL, now there's no real reason to buy it. Oh well, still thankful that Papyrus had the courage to put out GPL, I guess a dumbed down Nascar3 will probably sell better and help them to pay the bills, hopefully this new Sierra "arcade" focus will not carry over into CART3, where GPL's physics engine would be amazing. Probably a good move on their part as far as money goes, but they will have lost a lot of sales to diehard sim fans like myself, although admittedly we probably make up less than 10% of their sales. Sad news. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva >http://www.gamers.com/industry/e3-1999/nascar.as> >=============== > Nascar 3/2000 SNIP >As you may have heard, N2000 will no longer be using the Gran Prix Legends >physics engine. Papyrus has decided that theyre going to try to make the >game appeal to a more mass audience, not just the 1% who will actually try >to adjust all 200 engine and chassis tweaks. The physics engine will be the >same as that from NASCAR 1999, which was the same as that from NASCAR 2.

says...

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>I am 100%, without a doubt 180 degrees OPPOSITE of your opinion. >I say***eye-candy, and give me GPL-style physics in N3. I >could CARE LESS about eye candy. >>GPL physics in N3 are not quite as important to me as making the game >>more graphically pleasing to the eye. I don't care to have cars go >>flying through the air, as much as I want top be able to read the small >>contingency decals on the sides of the cars >Ridiculous comment. Ludicrous.

To each his own... With very very few exceptions (translated - freak accidents), not many stock cars leave the ground now-a-days, and certainly not to the extent that the GPL cars have been seen to launch. I want photo-realism, not that cheesy ***like lense flares and dirty windshields. I just want to enjoy the experience a lot more as far as eye-candy is concerned. Sure, I'll take an improved physics model too, but it doesn't need to be anywhere near as difficult to drive as GPL is. I think a few more car setup options would be good too. As long as I'm talking about this again, I'd like to see them put in a crew chief that can make appropriate changes for those of us not quite as adept at car setups as others are. For instance, I want to be able to tell the crew chief that it's pushing going into turn 4, and have him automatically make adjustments for me without concerning me about the details. If it ain't right, I'll come back into the pits and have 'em fix it some more. Now THAT would be a cool feature. Of course, I'll reiterate my desire for multi-player and online league support... In closing, if you wanna do flips in a car, go find an appropriate game, or continue driving (and abusing) GPL. -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS (Season 2) Director http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

John, N3 with the GPL physics was not about getting airborne. Have you seen the AVI? Did you see how the AC Delco car's suspension moved when it came down off the curb at Watkins Glen? Did you see the Valvoline car moving on it's suspension as it got sideways? You can tell that these cars are handling realistically. With moving suspension below, you can FEEL the car - and the speed. Graphics are not what make a sim. It seems as though the word simulator is being reduced though, by corporate suits... David L. Cook > says... <snip> > In closing, if you wanna do flips in a car, go find an appropriate game, > or continue driving (and abusing) GPL.

GPL the hardest game in the world? I take it he never tried to play any of the Quake games on-line? Talk about some one tearing you a new ***!!!!! If GPL is the hardest game I must be pretty damn good! I can keep the car on the on the track! buzard

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> >I think the lackluster sales of GPL are probably at the bottom of this. The > >suits at $ierra are scared that N2000 won't be the success that N1 & 2 > >were. > I found this quote from http://www.gamers.com/industry/e3-1999/nascar.asp > Gamer.com's E3 coverage that perhaps give insight to Sierra's reasoning in that > GPL is "known in some circles as the hardest game in the world.".

Hi John, Absolutely spot on with all points in your post. It is all too rare that we see a project that clearly reflects the passion of the designer (GP2 & GPL spring to mind). It's really a shame for all involved that GPL bombed. Can you imagine how DK and the rest must have felt to have their work stolen by the Warez guys and buried by the masses before it was even out of the starting gate? I'm afraid we may lose the opportunity to experience a sim like GPL in the future unless we are prepared to pay 3-4 times as much for it in a niche market scenario. Which I would do in a heartbeat by the way. regards, Patrick

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>Nascar3 with No GPL physics = no sale for me. >Not really a fan of Oval racing but was going to pick up Nascar3 >based on the *great* feel in GPL, now there's no real reason to >buy it. >Oh well, still thankful that Papyrus had the courage to put out GPL, >I guess a dumbed down Nascar3 will probably sell better and help them >to pay the bills, hopefully this new Sierra "arcade" focus will not carry

over

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>into CART3, where GPL's physics engine would be amazing. >Probably a good move on their part as far as money goes, but they will >have lost a lot of sales to diehard sim fans like myself, although >admittedly we probably make up less than 10% of their sales. >Sad news. >Seeyas on the track. >--John (Joao) Silva

% There are also supposed to be 3 development teams within Papyrus working on % different titles...so...who knows whats actually going on. :) 1) NASCAR 2000 2) NASCAR Legends 3) NASCAR III -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

GPL also had a large demand for hardware to run. I think this also hurt the sales. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Hardest "game" to some, and most realistic "simulation" others... Hard maybe to start with, but of late I am beginning to wonder why it seemed so difficult months ago. The more I practice and race the easier it gets. Howerver, while it maybe getting easier, there are still miles and miles for me to go to fully master it. That's what makes GPL so great in my book. The more I dig, the more I find (in both the sim and myself). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I would pay 2 to 3 times the price of a normal game for GPL's physics in a modern F1 sim! And yes, GPL really does feel like a labour of love, and everytime I get to drive my Ferrari through all those amazing corners of the Nurburgring I am thankful that the Papyrus guys had the vision and the guts to do what they've done with GPL and model these difficult but tremendously rewarding 1967 cars and tracks. It's too bad that the game has done poorly in the sales dept, but I know that many of us will be enjoying GPL for years to come, I can only hope that after Papyrus makes some money with Nascar2000, and that they can return after that to make a "pure" simulation of CART or F1 (or any other roadracing series), I would love to see what the GPL physics model could do with wings. Meanwhile we can continue to race our little hearts out on VROC :-) Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>Hi John, >Absolutely spot on with all points in your post. It is all too rare that we >see a project that clearly reflects the passion of the designer (GP2 & GPL >spring to mind). It's really a shame for all involved that GPL bombed. Can >you imagine how DK and the rest must have felt to have their work stolen by >the Warez guys and buried by the masses before it was even out of the >starting gate? I'm afraid we may lose the opportunity to experience a sim >like GPL in the future unless we are prepared to pay 3-4 times as much for >it in a niche market scenario. Which I would do in a heartbeat by the way. >regards, >Patrick

Everyone keeps posting about how GPL "bombed". Does anyone know the real sales figures? And what are the sales figures of other titles in the racing simulator genre? What's the profit margin on games? Did Papyrus actually lose money on the project, break even, or not make as much as they had hoped? Just curious, Dave Ewing

On Tue, 18 May 1999 09:41:49 -0600, David Ewing >Everyone keeps posting about how GPL "bombed". Does anyone know the real >sales figures? And what are the sales figures of other titles in the racing >simulator genre? What's the profit margin on games? Did Papyrus actually >lose money on the project, break even, or not make as much as they had hoped? >Just curious, I have no figures, but I was told by someone involved with Sierra Sports that Viper Racing has outsold GPL. I don't know if this means that GPL has "bombed," but I did find it surprising. FWIW, I think the V1.1 patch will create a new surge in GPL sales. In fact, I anticipate a re-release of GPL by Papy as a "new, FF-equipped version," kind of like EA did with NFSII SE. -- JB

Absolutely. As for GPL's financial success... well, I bought a second copy recently. Tiny drop in a big ocean, but this sim's given me a year's pleasure already (including the demo) with plenty more to come. Maybe products like this should be rented, not bought, that way great products could show their true worth in the medium and long term, possibly outperforming some of the more popular titles which are played for a few weeks then discarded in favour of the latest software "fix". Ok, renting's never going to work... software keys would be hacked, and the market -- even the serious sim market -- might not be ready for it. But somehow companies have got to be able to justify products like GPL. The bottom line is always profit, and the fun stuff has to exist to draw in the revenue to support the serious stuff, even if the developers themselves are happy to sacrifice financial gain for professional satisfaction. I've wondered if Papyrus could just hacked in some downforce, stickier tyres and put out that GPL-engined stunt racer that's been discussed before. Fantasy tracks, emphasis on fun, and a track designer would help a lot. Still, all projects take time and money, and nothing's ever as simple in reality as it is on paper! Andrew McP

I agree. When *** was "new" (say five years ago) I spent a lot of money buying just about everything, because it was all being done for the 1st time and things were evolving rapidly. Now I buy very little software, but what I buy generally stays on the HD for a long time. Older and wiser, or merely a reflection that most modern software's just the same old stuff with a glossier paint job? Either way, I'd be prepared to pay a lot more some sims of GPL's quality. Same goes for flight sims.... paying a lot more might even encourage me to finally get round to learning Falcon4's radar modes :-) Andrew McP

Hey, how about taking the GPL engine, tweaking it around, and releasing it as SODA 2? It wouldn't be too hard, in theory.... -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 >> I am thankful that the Papyrus guys had the vision and the guts >> to do what they've done with GPL >Absolutely. As for GPL's financial success... well, I bought a second copy recently. Tiny >drop in a big ocean, but this sim's given me a year's pleasure already (including the >demo) with plenty more to come. Maybe products like this should be rented, not >bought, that way great products could show their true worth in the medium and long >term, possibly outperforming some of the more popular titles which are played for a few >weeks then discarded in favour of the latest software "fix". >Ok, renting's never going to work... software keys would be hacked, and the market -- >even the serious sim market -- might not be ready for it. But somehow companies have >got to be able to justify products like GPL. The bottom line is always profit, and the fun >stuff has to exist to draw in the revenue to support the serious stuff, even if the >developers themselves are happy to sacrifice financial gain for professional >satisfaction. >> I would love to see what the GPL physics model could do with wings. >I've wondered if Papyrus could just hacked in some downforce, stickier tyres >and put out that GPL-engined stunt racer that's been discussed before. Fantasy tracks, >emphasis on fun, and a track designer would help a lot. Still, all projects take time and >money, and nothing's ever as simple in reality as it is on paper! >Andrew McP

As SODA demonstrated, there is no real market for a title like that unfortunately. We (the hard-core simracers) are soo small that you can't aim a title to us only. It can be done to airsims because the market is bigger, but it's a much different situation with us. GPL demonstrated that ;( -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I agree, I wanted to buy SODA, but the demo ran like molasses on my system in software mode, and they never delivered on a 3dfx patch, so I never bought it. I'm sure I wasn't the only one... this title was doomed from the start because it was very slow with software 3D rendering, and only supported the Rendition 3D cards (which were already outdone by the voodoo1's many of us owned). I would buy a SODA2 with decently fast graphics and great physics model. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva >The only reason why SODA did bad in sales was because it was a Redline API >title only. If Software Alliance/Papyrus would have done at least a Glide port >the game would have done much better. >Alex

>The only reason why SODA did bad in sales was because it was a Redline API >title only. If Software Alliance/Papyrus would have done at least a Glide port >the game would have done much better. I agree; worse yet they promised a port and then didn't deliver. I had my wallet out, and was ready to buy ... as soon as the 3Dfx port was done. Joe

If you have a Pentium II oor AMD 300 or better you are missing a great sim. Now all I play is GPL, but from Christmas 97 to when GPL came out this was the only sim I would play and it's great making your own tracks with the built in track editor. The game will even have the AI trucks learn your new tracks. I have a V2200 AGP card, and the Rendition support only hads bilinear filtering and no other hardware speed up. A Pentium II 300 runs the game at 640 x 480 at 25-30 fps withh all details set at max and 30 fps is max fopr the game anyway. I originally played this game on a K5-166 at 320 x 240 with just a few details turned off and it still was fun.. There is also a 320 x 240 mode for slower systems. Right now SODA is in the bargain bin and worth the investment. By the way, SODA is a real sim and not an arcade racer. More like GPL than Monster truck madness. Try it, Jerry

Thanks Jerry, I'll grab it if I happen to spot it in the bargain bin. Right now I am way to ***ed to GPL VROC racing against humans to be very satisfied driving against AI drivers anymore. But if I spot it I'll check it out to see how it runs on a PC capable of running it at 25FPS. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>If you have a Pentium II oor AMD 300 or better you are missing a great sim. >Now all I play is GPL, but from Christmas 97 to when GPL came out this was the >only sim I would play and it's great making your own tracks with the built in >track editor. The game will even have the AI trucks learn your new tracks. I >have a V2200 AGP card, and the Rendition support only hads bilinear filtering >and no other hardware speed up. A Pentium II 300 runs the game at 640 x 480 at >25-30 fps withh all details set at max and 30 fps is max fopr the game anyway. >I originally played this game on a K5-166 at 320 x 240 with just a few details >turned off and it still was fun.. There is also a 320 x 240 mode for slower >systems. Right now SODA is in the bargain bin and worth the investment. By >the way, SODA is a real sim and not an arcade racer. More like GPL than >Monster truck madness. >Try it, >Jerry