Not a banner year for sims

The slow selling 1998 title GPL apparently sent a message to the publishers that realistic games just don't sell. (we all know the real reasons why it didn't sell) So it shouldn't come as a surprise that 1999 would be a somewhat disappointing year for the sim racing crowd. I was e***d about Le Mans, but recent information isn't promising. Nascar 3 was going to be the big game of the year, but I might just save that as Christmas present for myself, instead of going strait out to buy it. The Trans Am game was canned after being the most promising game of all. So what's left? Well there are the 2 SCCA sims coming sometime, but I'm not optimistic for any 1999 releases. One of the rally sims could be a nice surprise. And after playing SCGT it seems my interest is in sports car road racing more than any other division. Sound bleak? GP3 is coming, with such a weak market in sim games this year, I expect GP3 to be received mighty well, and to be the obvious nominee for sim of the year.

With Rally Championship, GP3, MPGRS3, and the Nascar titles from Papyrus on their way, I don't see the upcoming 6 months to a year as bleak. Just the opposite. GPL didn't sell well because it was a simulator of the 1967 F1 season. It was a niche product. I think Papyrus knew exactly how well it would sell. If it had been a simulator of modern day F1 or Nascar, it would of easily sold a million copies due to it's quality. I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I think some hard core simmers (which I count myself as one) really need to give up this illusion that arcade racing fans "can't" drive a sim like GPL. Realism in a physics model does not scare an arcader at all. IMO, for every one, excellent, hard core sim driver, they are a thousand arcaders with just as much ability to rip around a virtual track (including many 14 year olds). Have you ever competed online, or off, with the top drivers of any arcade racing games? Trying to beat them is just as difficult as trying to beat any top sim driver. We are all just guiding a cartoon car around a cartoon track. I think hard core sim drivers hate it when their hobby is often looked upon by family and friends as childplay, and we go out of our way to legitimize it by criticizing arcaders. Psychological analysis is now over. :-) The realism of a sim's physics model is not what's challenging. It's the type of cars and race that presents the challenge. Honestly, I never found GPL any more daunting than some other sim/racing games I've enjoyed. Just different. Arcaders enjoy a different challenge, not an easier one. They simply prefer a more excititing environment to race in. The intended recreation of reality in sims doesn't offer that. More eye candy, fantasy, options, speed, etc., is what they want. The difficulty of the driving is rarely ever mentioned by anyone I've been around. Most of the comments that I've heard from real race car drivers (such as in CART, F1, or Nascar) indicate that even they prefer the arcade racing games. A quality sim of modern F1 will sell through the roof. GP2 and F1RS/MGPRS2 prove that. Nascar racing sims will sell like crazy also. Your average person doesn't walk in a store and dwell on whether or not the physics model will prevent them from enjoying the title. David G Fisher

It may not be a sim, but I was *amazed* at how fast my 9 year old's reactions were when watching him take extremely tight corners at an incredible speed in N64's "Star Wars Pod Racer" last night. I told him he would be kicking my tail in GPL very soon if he wanted to get in to it. He's an N64 kid right now, though. I still have some time ;) David L. Cook > IMO, for every one, excellent, hard core > sim driver, they are a thousand arcaders with just as much ability to rip > around a virtual track (including many 14 year olds).

Same thing here, but on my pc,and driving the pod-car with my MS FF wheel.And he was all by himself .He was driving with the wheel 1 inch from his chest(so he could be able to reach the pedals), and i couldn't believe the precision he was driving through those tracks at speeeds up to 900km/h.He is only 8 and more than once i thought ,"How could he do that move!!!I wouldn't".And the most amazing thing was that while he was doing that,he was also using the 8 wheel buttons to slide, hyperaccel,turn... I'd better practice more ,cause soon he'll be doing 1m25s at monza's GPL... :-) Rafael Medeiros

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> It may not be a sim, but I was *amazed* at how fast my 9 year old's > reactions were when watching him take extremely tight corners at an > incredible speed in N64's "Star Wars Pod Racer" last night. I told him > he would be kicking my tail in GPL very soon if he wanted to get in to > it. > He's an N64 kid right now, though. I still have some time ;) > David L. Cook > > IMO, for every one, excellent, hard core > > sim driver, they are a thousand arcaders with just as much ability to rip > > around a virtual track (including many 14 year olds).

From a hard-core sim point of view those are fairly weak. All those titles suffer from old game engine problems (MGPRS3 and Papy's softwares) or vaporware (Gp3 and Rally Championship). There is the Motorsims sims also, but that's mostly all. Microsoft is releasing a city patch (San Francisco I think) for X-mas. The Duke of Hazzard could have a good game engine if it goes with the defunct TAR one. Colin McRae 2 by Codemaster, but still the same game engine I heard. Bike racing seems the hot thing still this year. 3 "sims" this year, it's pretty incredible IMHO. Weak summer, acceptable fall and winter. But that's mostly all. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

>Sound bleak? GP3 is coming, with such a weak market in sim games this year, >I expect GP3 to be received mighty well, and to be the obvious nominee for >sim of the year. Last I heard (from a local games retailer and importer) GP3 has been delayed to sometime y2k. Now, this is just what I've heard, please don't kill the messenger :) But looks like GP3 won't be a sim of '99 ... Hena

I would tend to think the GP3, RC, AMA, etc are a little more than vaporware at this point. Not to mention there is also GP500 for more motorbike fun. Chalk that one up to GTInteractive...definetly wont buy any more of their products.

I highly doubt that. When generally people walk through the stores they dont know how good or how tough a game is. A lot of game buying folks dont even read webpages or mags...and the reviews I saw of it generally came out well. I am more inclined to believe that the majority of people interested in buying a racing title did not connect at all with the 1967 Grand Prix cars. If the game, with the same physics engine, had been based on Nascar, CART, F1, Sportscars, American muscle cars (at least in the states), etc I'm sure it would have sold quite well. But then again, not every year can there be the next best thing come out either.....Quake2 has been around quite awhile before Q3Arena started to make waves, hell they had 20 patches/upgrades for Q2 before they said enough is enough (I'd love to see Papy beat that for GPL...both in terms of patches/fixes/tweaks to upgrades with new cars, tracks, time periods, etc. :). Personally, I'm more than happy with the challenge presented by GPL.

shhh - don't tell the wife I agree, David - as a keen sim racing fan, the initial announcement that Papy would be doing a '67 F1 season did nothing for me - I was unsure I would even get it. That era held no real interest for me - even I am not old enough to remember car racing then (I was 4). It certainly does now, but the interest has been generated by the game itself. My interest was only aroused after I discovered it was THE ground breaking racing sim. Only then did the choice of historic pre-winged F1 cars appeal. So getting those not bitten by the bug of actually playing GPL to select it off the shelves as the racing sim to buy is severely limited. A dabble with the demo because it came on a CD on a mag rather than any particular desire for the racing era will also do little to sell the product, as we all know it takes more than a lap or two to get into it. Never stopped you before David :) Yes I have posted before how my nine year old son can run in the 1:08s at the Glen (1:33s at Monza) with all aids off & manual gears. He has no experience of driving let alone race driving. Oddly I believe this is an advantage - he doesn't miss the lack of physical feedback & only knows of visual & audio cues to drive on the limit. True again - at times it is difficult for "mature" ***s to admit to playing computer games which are typically viewed as a kid's activity. For me it is not that I want the physics model to be the challenge - being able to realistically race the AI or real people is the challenge I desire. Yet I do want the physics model to feel as close to my perception of reality as possible. Winning an arcade race by 0.01secs may provide a short term buzz, and ultimately I find it unsatisfying. Thats why I find all other racing games lack something after GPL. Heck David - I agree again - where's the fun in that. Don't people argue any more! Cheers Tony

I think you miss my point, I was just refering to how well thw physics models will improve over the next year. >With Rally Championship, GP3, MPGRS3, and the Nascar titles from Papyrus on >their way, I don't see the upcoming 6 months to a year as bleak. Just the >opposite. >GPL didn't sell well because it was a simulator of the 1967 F1 season. It >was a niche product. I think Papyrus knew exactly how well it would sell. If >it had been a simulator of modern day F1 or Nascar, it would of easily sold >a million copies due to it's quality. >I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I think some hard core simmers >(which I count myself as one) really need to give up this illusion that >arcade racing fans "can't" drive a sim like GPL. Realism in a physics model >does not scare an arcader at all. IMO, for every one, excellent, hard core >sim driver, they are a thousand arcaders with just as much ability to rip >around a virtual track (including many 14 year olds). Have you ever competed

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>online, or off, with the top drivers of any arcade racing games? Trying to >beat them is just as difficult as trying to beat any top sim driver. We are >all just guiding a cartoon car around a cartoon track. >I think hard core sim drivers hate it when their hobby is often looked upon >by family and friends as childplay, and we go out of our way to legitimize >it by criticizing arcaders. Psychological analysis is now over. :-) >The realism of a sim's physics model is not what's challenging. It's the >type of cars and race that presents the challenge. Honestly, I never found >GPL any more daunting than some other sim/racing games I've enjoyed. Just >different. Arcaders enjoy a different challenge, not an easier one. They >simply prefer a more excititing environment to race in. The intended >recreation of reality in sims doesn't offer that. More eye candy, fantasy, >options, speed, etc., is what they want. The difficulty of the driving is >rarely ever mentioned by anyone I've been around. >Most of the comments that I've heard from real race car drivers (such as in >CART, F1, or Nascar) indicate that even they prefer the arcade racing

games. >A quality sim of modern F1 will sell through the roof. GP2 and F1RS/MGPRS2 >prove that. Nascar racing sims will sell like crazy also. Your average >person doesn't walk in a store and dwell on whether or not the physics model

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>will prevent them from enjoying the title. >David G Fisher >> The slow selling 1998 title GPL apparently sent a message to the >publishers >> that realistic games just don't sell. (we all know the real reasons why

it

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>> didn't sell) >> So it shouldn't come as a surprise that 1999 would be a somewhat >> disappointing year for the sim racing crowd. > >> Sound bleak? GP3 is coming, with such a weak market in sim games this >year, >> I expect GP3 to be received mighty well, and to be the obvious nominee

for >> sim of the year.

Yes chris I agree, I should have been more clear, I meant we all know why it didn't sell (because it is a 1967 game) I figured that is pretty much the consensus around here. >> The slow selling 1998 title GPL apparently sent a message to the >publishers >> that realistic games just don't sell. (we all know the real reasons why it >> didn't sell) >I highly doubt that. When generally people walk through the stores they >dont know how good or how tough a game is. A lot of game buying folks dont >even read webpages or mags...and the reviews I saw of it generally came out >well. I am more inclined to believe that the majority of people interested >in buying a racing title did not connect at all with the 1967 Grand Prix >cars. If the game, with the same physics engine, had been based on Nascar, >CART, F1, Sportscars, American muscle cars (at least in the states), etc I'm >sure it would have sold quite well. >But then again, not every year can there be the next best thing come out >either.....Quake2 has been around quite awhile before Q3Arena started to >make waves, hell they had 20 patches/upgrades for Q2 before they said enough >is enough (I'd love to see Papy beat that for GPL...both in terms of >patches/fixes/tweaks to upgrades with new cars, tracks, time periods, etc. >:). >Personally, I'm more than happy with the challenge presented by GPL.

It did sell well, it just didn't meet the highest expectations My God, we're only half a year into '99 and people are already behaving as though the year is up! What about TOCA 2 and SCGT? That's your problem then, isn't it? A weak market? I think not! The Excelsior "Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..." Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country

I don't agree, I don't think it met the expectations Sierra set for it, (because it's a 67 eurpean open wheel sim) let alone high expectations. well as you may have read in response to some other replies, I was refering to an advancement in the genre. TOCA 2 and SCGT are decent sims but don't present a jump above anything. Also read the title, just because it's not a banner year dosn't mean we won't have some quality products. how is that? It was just saying that I was e***d about the Rally, touring and Sports car games, but it didn't say that I like sports cars more than power boat racing, just that my interest really is into it, before I really didn't pay attention. I agree, it's just that other than GP3 I don't see any other sims on a break through on the horizon. one addendum to that though, is that it has been a banner year for Motor cycle sims, With AMA being right up there on my list with GP3 for possible break throughs.

On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:55:24 -0400, "David L. Cook"

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>It may not be a sim, but I was *amazed* at how fast my 9 year old's >reactions were when watching him take extremely tight corners at an >incredible speed in N64's "Star Wars Pod Racer" last night. I told him >he would be kicking my tail in GPL very soon if he wanted to get in to >it. >He's an N64 kid right now, though. I still have some time ;)

:-) Did you buy him an N64 just to be mean, or to prevent him from beating you at GPL? The Excelsior "Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning..." Captain James Kirk [William Shatner], The Undiscovered Country

Ok...I mispoke, I should have said it was up to version 20. But yes, security fixes fall under fixes. :) And yes, I was aware of that id's decision to patch things quicker was based a lot of user feedback...something to consider.

But I wonder how well an slightly newer GPL would be - say when Lotus had those beautiful black/gold John Player Specials - and Emmo & Mario won the World Championships in them! Cause for me, driving a Lotus Europa then, that was the pinnacle of my interest in F1. But now that there is no longer a Team Lotus, I have no more interest in F1 :( <SNIP>

On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:09:55 -0400, "David G Fisher" >GPL didn't sell well because it was a simulator of the 1967 F1 season. It >was a niche product. I think Papyrus knew exactly how well it would sell. If >it had been a simulator of modern day F1 or Nascar, it would of easily sold >a million copies due to it's quality. Well, the fact that it was a 1967 F1 simulator was one of the main reasons that made me buy it, especially because I was interested in trying the Ring and Spa in their "classic" layout :-) Anyway, I guess that also here in Italy it didn't sell very well :-( -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> > With Rally Championship, GP3, MPGRS3, and the Nascar titles from Papyrus > on > > their way, I don't see the upcoming 6 months to a year as bleak. Just the > > opposite. > From a hard-core sim point of view those are fairly weak. All those titles > suffer from old game engine problems (MGPRS3 and Papy's softwares) or > vaporware (Gp3 and Rally Championship). How are Rally Champ and GP3 weak from a "hard-core point of view"? How is Rally Champ vaporware? There is a ton of info available about it. David G Fisher

Vaporware (for me) = only PR and screenshots. GP3 is only PR. Rally Championship has millions of screenshots and some PR. So ? Graphics don't make a good physic engine. PR is just marketing ***to get attention. And from what we saw with last video, their physics were still 2d and pretty bad. So, you have "better" information than the rest of us ? Im awaiting for real facts about Rally 99. For GPL they released a full Glen lap, a full Monza lap, a crash at Zandy, and numbers of physics informations. The only thing we had in R99 is some PR saying it would be modeled in an incredible way, where you can go where you want, yadda yadda yadda. So tell us more if you are in the "knowing" for the software. Tell me David why are all the R99 screenshots made from cars going on a straight ? Why always on a straight ? England roads are not all straight, no ? And btw, for those who didn't know, the title will not model the World Rally Championship cars and tracks, only the British Rally series. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> > How are Rally Champ and GP3 weak from a "hard-core point of view"? How is > > Rally Champ vaporware? There is a ton of info available about it. > Vaporware (for me) = only PR and screenshots. Well then everything is vaporware until it shows up on our hard drives. There were no physics in the videos that were released so to say they were bad is misleading. Although if you watch the video, the car you do see in the beginning sure looks real to me. There will be a demo when it's ready. I have many screenshots with the cars at intersections or turns. The tracks in the game will be the same as in real life. Do you think they are going to release fantasy tracks that only go straight and claim them to be accurate? Why? What racing game has ever only had straights? There will be WRC cars which will be available in a sort of made up championship, but not in the true simulation of the BRC series. The cars can be seen here. [link lost in import] David G Fisher

Good point, but there is good ways to create production marketing. 1001 screenshots is not the way to go today, IMHO. Interractivity between the development team and the future potential buyer is. GPL showed clearly that to us, the racing *** market and future potential buyer of it. First a Monza full lap, then the full Glen***pit lap, the Zandy crash, and finally the demo, with an additionnal track after (Monza). Papyrus did that with the "real" N3, with a video clearly showing the advancing of the racing physics, but now the "fake" (hehe) N3 goes this way, they started with some screenshots, and now engine sounds, more screenshots. No video or demo yet, still :( . So why did they released a video when they didn't had physics ? Still, they are going the good way with releasing sound engines, interractivity between the users and the development team (on some webboards, still not here). I have seen Rally stages of the BRS, and they are twisty. I say at least 3 ot of 4 screenshots show the car going in a straight line, with no visible turn at head, or turns that have a small angle, less than 15%. The other 14 are intersection turns, mostly 90degree corners. Since indeed all the tracks in the game are like real-life, where are those twisty road screenshots ? The cars will be there, there is a fantasy racing championship using them yes as you said. Just wanted to say this, since I know many people think it's a simulation of WRC cars. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."